OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread

[EmperorSarda]

That would be a good t-shirt.

I hope V gets it together soon. What do you think the chances of V coming clean to the rest of the party are in the near future? I mean, eventually the whole Famliacide story has to come out...

I think it depends on if Qarr tells the drow how to push V's buttons about familicide first.

[zimmerwald1915]

1. Speaking is a free action
2. Roy doesn't have to compose a sending. Here's how it goes:
Durkon/Haley, contact V. We need some passwalls fast!

Roy has never seen V use Passwall, and V, being a very private person, doesn't give Roy her spellbooks for bedtime reading. We have seen V use Passwall precisely once, very recently, and in isolation from all the other party members. There is no reason to believe that Roy knows V knows Passwall, still less that she has it prepared. More germane to the topic, however, is that we know that working within Sending's word limit normally requires some thought and creativity by the people who are going to communicate. Haley had to think up just the right Sending beforehand when she wanted to contact Durkon. This problem is only compounded by the fact that Roy would be composing the message for someone else to send. He'd have to get it right, then make sure they get it right.

Roy's team is zany but all of them are good at their job.

Are we reading the same comic? Roy's team is so incompetant that threads bemoaning said incompetance crop up every week or so. Possibly on Incompetuesday.

Now, the 10 minute casting time is an issue, as has been thoroughly noted above. That's why Roy needs to break contact with the enemy (done!), go to ground (in progress) and call in the heavy artillery.

You're once again minimizing some logistical problems and ignoring others. Largest among these is that, since Roy has no idea where he is or where V is, he can't give V directions to his position. Closely following that consideration in importance is that V cannot teleport from where she is to where Roy is. She would have to fly or walk, without any sense of where she should go. Roy also knows that the corridors are full of traps, and while Haley might be able to Spot them, V has less Wisdom and fewer skill points overall than Haley, not to mention that Spot isn't a class skill for V. Calling V to him maximizes the chances that V will fall victim to a trap. Finally, Roy doesn't know where the Linear Guild is. The Guild could be between V and the Order right now, and even supposing Roy could give directions and that V could successfully navigate the corridors, letting a party member walk blindly and alone into the enemy is a huge and foolish risk.

There is no serious argument that V wouldn't be a major asset in the ongoing battle.

Well, considering that the last the Order saw of V she was bugging out her eyes and acting generally hysterical, they have good reason to question her state of mind. Altered mental status can severely disrupt basic life functions, let alone combat performance, especially for someone like a Wizard whose usefulness in combat stems from their ability to manipulate the laws of physics with their mind.

Anyway, your statement is false on its face. Your bald assertions have spawned detailed critiques, so to say there is no argument to be made is to deny the existence of these critiques. Which I suppose actually fits with your reluctance to actually engage with the objections raised against your scheme.

[FujinAkari]

Are we reading the same comic? Roy's team is so incompetant that threads bemoaning said incompetance crop up every week or so. Possibly on Incompetuesday.

Ah, this may be the problem then... we're reading the Order of the Stick. You are in the Order of the Stick forums. I'm not sure which comic you're reading, but please read the one that this forum was developed for.

Incompetent is certainly not a word that describes the heroes of this comic. If it were, they would still be in the Dungeon of Durokan - actually, they wouldn't even have made it -there-!

[zimmerwald1915]

Incompetent is certainly not a word that describes the heroes of this comic.

I suppose that's true as far as it goes. But it is most certainly a word that describes the Order of the Stick

[JaaSwb]

Incompetent is certainly not a word that describes the heroes of this comic. If it were, they would still be in the Dungeon of Durokan - actually, they wouldn't even have made it -there-!

Please tell me you are being sarcastic. For pre-Dorukan incompetence, you need only see On the Origin of PCs, page 68.

Spoiler

Show

The Order's misuse of readied actions results in Haley shooting Belkar, Elan stabbing him, and V casting lightning bolt on all three of them. According to Roy, this would have been a "nice easy encounter [to] practice working as a team."

In the Dungeon of Dorukan, in #72, they actually forget to bring Durkon when they leave the vault.

The comic is full of examples like this. The Order only looks competent when compared to the Linear Guild.

Of course, storywise, this is a good thing.


Edit: The Order has of course come a long way since then. They're definitely more competent now.

[ti'esar]

It sometimes seems like too many people judge the Order incompetent based on the standard of competence of actual, optimizing D&D players. But even by a fairer standard, it's hard to see how they aren't.

[Forikroder]

Ah, this may be the problem then... we're reading the Order of the Stick. You are in the Order of the Stick forums. I'm not sure which comic you're reading, but please read the one that this forum was developed for.

Incompetent is certainly not a word that describes the heroes of this comic. If it were, they would still be in the Dungeon of Durokan - actually, they wouldn't even have made it -there-!

no there definently incompetent considering how easily Nale managed to get in there ranks and not a single one of themw as the least bit suspicious

[Kish]

Statistically speaking, it could be argued that the less competent the Order members are in the actual story, the better "optimized" they are. Bard with everything in Charisma who dumped both Intelligence and Wisdom, ranger with all physical ability scores high who doesn't bother with spellcasting and used Wisdom as his primary dump stat, wizard with nothing to be proud of statistically but Intelligence...Everything about Haley? Why not?

(Someone who considers optimizing as much as possible the only way to play would certainly choke on Belkar's class, Vaarsuvius' specialization, and everything about Roy. But the primary advocate of that attitude in the comic appears to be Eugene.)

Paying attention to the story, the Order members are certainly comically incompetent, prone to screwups ranging from "forgetting that we have a sixth member until we're too far past him to go back" to "bypassing the one trap it would have been better if we'd fallen into." They mostly run away or have mixed victories, as Elan said; it's what they do.

[lio45]

1. Speaking is a free action
2. Roy doesn't have to compose a sending. Here's how it goes:
Durkon/Haley, contact V. We need some passwalls fast!

Roy's team is zany but all of them are good at their job.

Now, the 10 minute casting time is an issue, as has been thoroughly noted above. That's why Roy needs to break contact with the enemy (done!), go to ground (in progress) and call in the heavy artillery.

There is no serious argument that V wouldn't be a major asset in the ongoing battle.

Yeah, but the thing is... V's gone. And from Roy's POV, whatever happened to him, it's not going to be fixed by merely Sending, so at this point it is a waste of time.

Sending to V isn't going to teleport V back into the party. It'd be nice to have V for the battle, but unfortunately, V's missing, and as Roy said in comic (pointed out already by z1915), V's whereabouts are not the team's priority at the moment.

[B. Dandelion]

Statistically speaking, it could be argued that the less competent the Order members are in the actual story, the better "optimized" they are. Bard with everything in Charisma who dumped both Intelligence and Wisdom, ranger with all physical ability scores high who doesn't bother with spellcasting and used Wisdom as his primary dump stat, wizard with nothing to be proud of statistically but Intelligence...Everything about Haley? Why not?

(Someone who considers optimizing as much as possible the only way to play would certainly choke on Belkar's class, Vaarsuvius' specialization, and everything about Roy. But the primary advocate of that attitude in the comic appears to be Eugene.)

Paying attention to the story, the Order members are certainly comically incompetent, prone to screwups ranging from "forgetting that we have a sixth member until we're too far past him to go back" to "bypassing the one trap it would have been better if we'd fallen into." They mostly run away or have mixed victories, as Elan said; it's what they do.

You're saying they're optimized for maximum incompetency? Kinda like the adventuring party equivalent to Springtime for Hitler?

[Snippy]

The Order definitely have their stupid moments. But as a team, they're not incompetent. All of them have displayed competence in battle (even Elan), and while Durkon, Belkar and Elan aren't the brightest bullseye lanterns in the general equipment list, I'd say that Roy, Haley and V balance them out fairly well. They've had many stuff-ups, but they've also had many victories. They're not great adventurers - but neither are they incompetent fools.

I'm not denying that they've done stupid things before, nor that a number of their members have a hole where their common sense should be. Incompetence is the lack of the ability to perform successfully. The Order don't lack that ability, they've been successful many times, especially in the more recent books. They've also been unsuccessful many times, but that doesn't make them incompetent.

Also, examples of the Order stuffing up in the Dungeon of Dorukan and Origin of PCs don't really count, as the OotS have greatly improved since those days.

[zimmerwald1915]

I'm not denying that they've done stupid things before, nor that a number of their members have a hole where their common sense should be. Incompetence is the lack of the ability to perform successfully. The Order don't lack that ability, they've been successful many times, especially in the more recent books. They've also been unsuccessful many times, but that doesn't make them incompetent.

Specific examples would be nice.

Also, examples of the Order stuffing up in the Dungeon of Dorukan and Origin of PCs don't really count, as the OotS have greatly improved since those days.

...Is there some reason the evidence against your position is worse than the evidence for it? Because this paragraph amounts to "you're not allowed to use evidence from the comic to argue against me because I said so".

[Snippy]

...Is there some reason the evidence against your position is worse than the evidence for it? Because this paragraph amounts to "you're not allowed to use evidence from the comic to argue against me because I said so".

Yes, that was a pretty stupid thing to say. Sorry about that.

Specific examples would be nice.

Sorry I took so long to asnwer, but I just had dinner.
Some examples of the OotS performing well:

*They win many battles in the first book, including against Xykon and the Guild.
*They don't do alot in the second book, but they manage to defeat a dragon and ogres. Belkar actually beats Miko in a fight but lets her survive just to keep the fight going.
*In the third book they defeat the Guild, twice. In the siege they lose, but we see competence displayed - V dismissing the elementals, defending the breach, Belkar killing hundreds of Hobgoblins on the battlefield, Haley killing almost as many with her bow.
*In the fourth book they defeat Kubota and the demon Qarr summons, as well as the Thieves Guild.
*In the recent book they defeat bandits, find the (false) location of the Gate, survive the arena, and defeat the Guild (with help from Malack, though).

Often the OotS succeeds with help from others, however they still perform competently. I didn't provide links, but you should recognize those.

[Forikroder]

Y*They win many battles in the first book, including against Xykon and the Guild.

then let both escape

*In the third book they defeat the Guild, twice. In the siege they lose, but we see competence displayed - V dismissing the elementals, defending the breach, Belkar killing hundreds of Hobgoblins on the battlefield, Haley killing almost as many with her bow.

let nale replace elan and never figure it out until Elan manages to break out of jail and let them know

roy jumping on top of a dragon to try to beat soemone twice his level in a fight

[raymundo]

It sometimes seems like too many people judge the Order incompetent based on the standard of competence of actual, optimizing D&D players. But even by a fairer standard, it's hard to see how they aren't.

Yes. I think that's exactly the point. A lot of people hold the order on their own (arguebly grotesque) optimization standarts, eventually neglecting the fact that this is a story and not an actual P&P game group simulation.

Having optimized casters solve any problem with some spell without breaking a sweat might be compelling for certain P&P seasons, but not for telling a story.

But in the end everybody has his own motivations to read this comic.

[Forikroder]

Yes. I think that's exactly the point. A lot of people hold the order on their own (arguebly grotesque) optimization standarts, eventually neglecting the fact that this is a story and not an actual P&P game group simulation.

Having optimized casters solve any problem with some spell without breaking a sweat might be compelling for certain P&P seasons, but not for telling a story.

But in the end everybody has his own motivations to read this comic.

i disagree i dont think people are saying "oh the order could be doing better because as a fighter roy should ahve been able to do X instead of Y" because there hasnt been a situation like that


people are saying "how dumb do you have to be to jump on top of a dragon to fight someone who can fly?"

that has nothing to do with optimizing roys character

[FujinAkari]

Specific examples would be nice.

Ok.

Successfully cleared out the Dungeon of Durokan.
Successfully defeated the Linear Guild and delivered its ringleaders to local authorities.
Successfully put an end to the bandit brigade
Successfully defeated marauding ogres at the behest of Dirt Farmers
Successfully convinced Miko that her presumptions were incorrect (TWICE!)
Successfully conducted the evacuation operation of a burning inn.
Successfully defeated a Young Black Dragon.
Successfully Completed the trials surrounding the Oracle's Valley
Successfully survived Nale's ambush and, again, delivered the Linear Guild leadership to local authorities.
Successfully identified Xykon's deception and revealed his position before he could invisibly infiltrate the castle.
Successfully conducted months-long resistance efforts against a vastly martially superior foe.
Successfully defeated a gargantuine demon.
Successfully defeated an ancient black dragon.
Successfully won a war of attrition against overwhelming odds against a thieves' guild.
Successfully defeated the Linear Guild, capturing one member and killing an additional two with no significant losses.
Successfully explored Girard's Desert and beat all competitors to the presumed location of Girard's Gate.

So yeah, that is off the top of my head. Incompetent is defined as "bad at doing something: lacking the skills, qualities, or ability to do something properly."

The Order, clearly, gets things done. While they are not optimized, it is flatly dishonest to call them incompetent.

[B. Dandelion]

I dunno, it seems like some qualifications for them being "competent" seems to hinge on the same kind of logic that made the Light Warriors from 8-Bit Theater "heroes": "good deeds were done and we were nearby."

Like, the bandits were disbanded after their encounter with the Order, when after the OOTS had gone through a series of spectacularly bad judgment calls and repeated asskickings, the old leader mistook a tied-up Durkon for a potential ally, and Durkon "defeated" him without meaning to, and then the remaining bandits turned on him just as they'd turned on Samantha. That's what success looks like? There were individual moments of competency, particularly on Roy's part, but it largely seemed to me they blundered through the entire affair and then lucked out due to the fickle nature of their opponents.

It's like saying a natural disaster "gets things done". Clearly it does, but you don't characterize the disaster as "competent" as a result. That implies intent and direction -- competency is knowing what you want, being able to identify what's needed to get it, and through the deliberate application of your own personal skills achieving that desired result. If you misidentify what you want done and fail to get it, only to realize later what you actually wanted was what you wound up with anyway, you have not demonstrated "competency". If you know what you want and get it for reasons unrelated to your own actions, you have not demonstrated "competency".

I wouldn't say the Order is entirely inept, but it seems that their moments of demonstrable competency are there as punctuation in a general pattern of stumbling their way through the plot. They've gotten better about certain things. But they always retain a certain bumbling quality.

[Forikroder]

Successfully cleared out the Dungeon of Durokan.

but let the important people escape

Successfully defeated the Linear Guild and delivered its ringleaders to local authorities.

aside from the rogue who then freed them

Successfully put an end to the bandit brigade
Successfully defeated marauding ogres at the behest of Dirt Farmers

small frys dont count as victories

Successfully convinced Miko that her presumptions were incorrect (TWICE!)

huh?

Successfully conducted the evacuation operation of a burning inn

that was only on fire because of them

Successfully defeated a Young Black Dragon.

small fry

Successfully Completed the trials surrounding the Oracle's Valley

small fry

and when you consider THIS a victory you know your stretching since the trials arent designed to be hard

Successfully survived Nale's ambush and, again, delivered the Linear Guild leadership to local authorities.

incarcerated there own member and allowed Nale to join them giving him info on the gate directly leading to there current predicament

Successfully identified Xykon's deception and revealed his position before he could invisibly infiltrate the castle.

which led to Roy getting killed and Xykon infiltrating the castle anyway

Successfully conducted months-long resistance efforts against a vastly martially superior foe.

instead of reviving there leader and working on saving the world also didnt actually do anything important aside from rescuing Mr. Scruffy during the resistance

Successfully defeated an ancient black dragon.

at the cost of putting motivating Xykon to continue pursuing the gates and killing all the draketooth's

Successfully won a war of attrition against overwhelming odds against a thieves' guild.

"overwhelming odds"? Belakr killed them all himself pretty much

again, small fry

Successfully defeated the Linear Guild, capturing one member and killing an additional two with no significant losses.

they (maybe) killed one member and let the dangerous ones escape to come back like 3 days later

Successfully explored Girard's Desert and beat all competitors to the presumed location of Girard's Gate.

and in doing so led the LG to the temple

they didnt beat all competitors to the location they LED the competitors to the location

[rewinn]

Roy has never seen V use Passwall
...

This line of argument assumes that Roy wouldn't ask his party Wizard for a spell list. That is absurd.

It also assumes that Roy wouldn't try to contact his missing friend and Heavy Artillery because he thinks only a Passwall would bring them together. That is also absurd.

Roy's team is so incompetant that ...

Other than the Big Bads of the comic ... an Epic-Level Lich Sorcerer and an Artifact-Equipped Evil High Priest... the list of their foes is dominated by the Quick To Escape and the Dead.

You're once again minimizing some logistical problems ...

Nope. I just think that a competent commander should keep track of his assets. For all Roy knows, V is in the next room.

...the last the Order saw of V she was bugging out her eyes and acting generally hysterical...

Which is completely irrelevant to the issue whether V is an asset in combat. V was in pretty bad shape back at the island where V was the critical factor in destroying the summoned demon.

Your bald assertions have spawned detailed critiques, so to say there is no argument to be made is to deny the existence of these critiques

First, those critiques came *after* my "bald assertion" so I didn't deny their existence ... they didn't exist at the time I made the assertion.
Second, and of greater relevance, I should have stated "There is no RATIONAL ARGUMENT that V is not an asset in combat" because none of the arguments against V's combat value are rational. There is a rational argument against spending the time to contact V's states: casting time.

... your reluctance to actually engage with the objections raised against your scheme.

I'm sorry, Counselor, but I have better things to do, but if you insist - the arguments advanced against this "scheme" are:

(A) Casting time (which I acknowledged and suggested a remedy for)
(B) Maybe V can't get to Roy (which is a foolish argument since, to Roy, it is just as likely that V *can* get to Roy or in other ways be useful)
(C) V won't be helpful in combat (which is utter nonsense, based upon V's proven usefulness in dungeon combat since the very first comic)

I appreciate some don't approve of Roy attempting to get V back with the party and it is certainly true that casting time is a big issue; if Roy decides to have other priorities, well that's a choice someone has to make. It is also true that the Order screws up now and then, and that drove much of the humor of the early comic. However the party has gotten more skilled as it gained experience.

Indeed, Roy has made a POINT of gaining EXPERIENCE. One could imagine an entire WORLD dominated by the concept of becoming more effective as one gains points of experience.

[Forikroder]

the list of their foes is dominated by the Quick To Escape and the Dead.

the fact that there foes escape so many times in pretty much the same way each time shows there incompetence

when it comes down to it, theres no point in sending to V the only possible information they can get is if V is alive since they definently dont ahve time to cast 2 sendings and theyd need to know where V is before they can figure out what to tell him to do

and wether V is or is not alive is second priority to keeping the rest of them alive they can ressurect V they cant ressurect the entire party all available time the Order has needs to be spent getting the ambush ready thats simply not arguable

[Gusion]

I'm sorry, Counselor, but I have better things to do, but if you insist - the arguments advanced against this "scheme" are:

(A) Casting time (which I acknowledged and suggested a remedy for)
(B) Maybe V can't get to Roy (which is a foolish argument since, to Roy, it is just as likely that V *can* get to Roy or in other ways be useful)
(C) V won't be helpful in combat (which is utter nonsense, based upon V's proven usefulness in dungeon combat since the very first comic)

(D) Roy thinks that V is already dead/incapacitated and unable to help

Reviewing comic # 848, I think that is a very real possibility. He likely feels that if V was able to help, she would have.

If there is a scroll of sending available (which there probably is), than sure. Hell, it is worth a try for 6 seconds.

But if not, I doubt they'd try it if Roy does think V has gone unavailable. He trusts (hahahaha) that V would be loyal to the party and help when she's able to do so - no message is necessary. We don't know the nature of the trap they're setting, so it is perfectly plausible that if V walks in she wouldn't set it off.

[Boogastreehouse]

I don't recall ever seeing a character in this comic conveying a look of such utter horror as when V's casting passwall.

Maybe Elan's face and posture here comes close, but V really looks to be on the brink of sanity in this strip.

[Snippy]

but let the important people escape
...aside from the rogue who then freed them
...small frys dont count as victories
...huh?
...that was only on fire because of them
...small fry
...small fry
...and when you consider THIS a victory you know your stretching since the trials arent designed to be hard
...incarcerated there own member and allowed Nale to join them giving him info on the gate directly leading to there current predicament
...which led to Roy getting killed and Xykon infiltrating the castle anyway
...instead of reviving there leader and working on saving the world also didnt actually do anything important aside from rescuing Mr. Scruffy during the resistance
...at the cost of putting motivating Xykon to continue pursuing the gates and killing all the draketooth's
..."overwhelming odds"? Belakr killed them all himself pretty much
...again, small fry
...they (maybe) killed one member and let the dangerous ones escape to come back like 3 days later
...and in doing so led the LG to the temple
...they didnt beat all competitors to the location they LED the competitors to the location

None of those responses mean anything to the argument. You're just pointing out some related failures, or calling out 'small fry', with no evidence to support that claim.
Forikroder, we aren't arguing that OotS always have faultless victories, simply that they are not 'incompetent' as you say. In all of Fujin's examples the OotS succeeded, and you haven't been able to prove that wrong.

[Forikroder]

None of those responses mean anything to the argument. You're just pointing out some related failures, or calling out 'small fry', with no evidence to support that claim.
Forikroder, we aren't arguing that OotS always have faultless victories, simply that they are not 'incompetent' as you say. In all of Fujin's examples the OotS succeeded, and you haven't been able to prove that wrong.

they didnt succeed in the dungeon
they didnt succeed at cliffport
they didnt succeed at Azure City

there all mixed victories at the best where they sorta succeeded but didnt actually manage to accomplish anything important

and yes, lvl 3 bandits and orgres are small fry

[ti'esar]

I don't recall ever seeing a character in this comic conveying a look of such utter horror as when V's casting passwall.

Maybe Elan's face and posture here comes close, but V really looks to be on the brink of sanity in this strip.

No, I'd say Elan is the more horrified. V is more accurate described as panicked.

(And isn't it great how we can actually debate this kind of thing with stick figures?)

[ti'esar]

I don't recall ever seeing a character in this comic conveying a look of such utter horror as when V's casting passwall.

Maybe Elan's face and posture here comes close, but V really looks to be on the brink of sanity in this strip.

No, I'd say Elan is the more horrified. V is more accurate described as panicked.

(And isn't it great how we can actually debate this kind of thing with stick figures?)

[zimmerwald1915]

(And isn't it great how we can actually debate this kind of thing with stick figures?)

It is indeed great, but it's not like we have no basis for these characterizations. The parentheses-like eyebrows indicate that a character is disturbed or purturbed in some way. They've been knocked out of their comfort zone. The more eyebrows, the greater the magnitude of the purturbation. Boogastreehouse is on to something when he says V's more horrified than Elan - he's taking his cue from the eyebrows. V has three eyebrow markings, Elan has two. V is more purturbed than Elan.

You, meanwhile, are trying to identify the characters rather than the magnitudes of Elan's and V's respective emotional states. Elan is horrified, V panicked. This cue can be gleaned not from their eyebrows, but from their mouths. Elan's lower lip bends upward in the middle, while V's mouth is hanging as wide open as possible as she shouts her incantations at the top of her voice. Of course, there are contextual cues as well, such as Blackwing - who, being empathically linked with V is in a position to characterize her emotional state with confidence - calling V's actions motivated by panic. But it's there in the art too.

The Giant knows perfectly well what he's doing. The art is minimalistic, true, but there is enough there so that he can show us these cues and we can come up with analyses based on them. And yeah, that's a great thing.

[ti'esar]

It is indeed great, but it's not like we have no basis for these characterizations.

That's my point - I think it really says something about the Giant's mastery of his art style (and I would call it a style) that said basis exists.

[jere7my]

then let both escape

Letting the bad guy escape at the end of the fight is such a basic element of serial storytelling I'm surprised I have to point it out. From Lex Luthor getting away from Superman a thousand times to Vader flying away after the Death Star explodes to supervillains escaping from James Bond in a secret rocket pod, foiling your antagonist while letting them go free to fight another day serves the needs of extended-format storytelling — it says nothing about the competence of the heroes, unless you want to call James Bond, Luke Skywalker, Superman, and the rest of the world's superheroes incompetent. "The heroes have won...but!" is a common and perfectly satisfying way to end a chapter. In fact (to bring this back to D&D), there was at least one article in Dragon listing ways to ensure an antagonist gets away at the end of the adventure, so they can return in a more powerful form at some future dramatic moment.