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2012-06-30, 04:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-06-30, 04:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
Roy has never seen V use Passwall, and V, being a very private person, doesn't give Roy her spellbooks for bedtime reading. We have seen V use Passwall precisely once, very recently, and in isolation from all the other party members. There is no reason to believe that Roy knows V knows Passwall, still less that she has it prepared. More germane to the topic, however, is that we know that working within Sending's word limit normally requires some thought and creativity by the people who are going to communicate. Haley had to think up just the right Sending beforehand when she wanted to contact Durkon. This problem is only compounded by the fact that Roy would be composing the message for someone else to send. He'd have to get it right, then make sure they get it right.
Roy's team is zany but all of them are good at their job.
Now, the 10 minute casting time is an issue, as has been thoroughly noted above. That's why Roy needs to break contact with the enemy (done!), go to ground (in progress) and call in the heavy artillery.
There is no serious argument that V wouldn't be a major asset in the ongoing battle.
Anyway, your statement is false on its face. Your bald assertions have spawned detailed critiques, so to say there is no argument to be made is to deny the existence of these critiques. Which I suppose actually fits with your reluctance to actually engage with the objections raised against your scheme.
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2012-06-30, 07:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
Ah, this may be the problem then... we're reading the Order of the Stick. You are in the Order of the Stick forums. I'm not sure which comic you're reading, but please read the one that this forum was developed for.
Incompetent is certainly not a word that describes the heroes of this comic. If it were, they would still be in the Dungeon of Durokan - actually, they wouldn't even have made it -there-!Last edited by FujinAkari; 2012-06-30 at 07:57 PM.
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2012-06-30, 09:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-06-30, 09:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
Please tell me you are being sarcastic. For pre-Dorukan incompetence, you need only see On the Origin of PCs, page 68.
SpoilerThe Order's misuse of readied actions results in Haley shooting Belkar, Elan stabbing him, and V casting lightning bolt on all three of them. According to Roy, this would have been a "nice easy encounter [to] practice working as a team."
In the Dungeon of Dorukan, in #72, they actually forget to bring Durkon when they leave the vault.
The comic is full of examples like this. The Order only looks competent when compared to the Linear Guild.
Of course, storywise, this is a good thing.
Edit: The Order has of course come a long way since then. They're definitely more competent now.Last edited by JaaSwb; 2012-06-30 at 10:06 PM.
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2012-06-30, 09:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
It sometimes seems like too many people judge the Order incompetent based on the standard of competence of actual, optimizing D&D players. But even by a fairer standard, it's hard to see how they aren't.
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2012-06-30, 10:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-06-30, 10:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
Statistically speaking, it could be argued that the less competent the Order members are in the actual story, the better "optimized" they are. Bard with everything in Charisma who dumped both Intelligence and Wisdom, ranger with all physical ability scores high who doesn't bother with spellcasting and used Wisdom as his primary dump stat, wizard with nothing to be proud of statistically but Intelligence...Everything about Haley? Why not?
(Someone who considers optimizing as much as possible the only way to play would certainly choke on Belkar's class, Vaarsuvius' specialization, and everything about Roy. But the primary advocate of that attitude in the comic appears to be Eugene.)
Paying attention to the story, the Order members are certainly comically incompetent, prone to screwups ranging from "forgetting that we have a sixth member until we're too far past him to go back" to "bypassing the one trap it would have been better if we'd fallen into." They mostly run away or have mixed victories, as Elan said; it's what they do.Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2012-06-30, 11:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
Yeah, but the thing is... V's gone. And from Roy's POV, whatever happened to him, it's not going to be fixed by merely Sending, so at this point it is a waste of time.
Sending to V isn't going to teleport V back into the party. It'd be nice to have V for the battle, but unfortunately, V's missing, and as Roy said in comic (pointed out already by z1915), V's whereabouts are not the team's priority at the moment.Offer good while supplies last. Two to a customer. Each item sold separately. Batteries not included. Mileage may vary. All sales are final. Allow six weeks for delivery. Some items not available. Some assembly required. Some restrictions may apply. All entries become our property. Employees not eligible. Entry fees not refundable. Local restrictions apply. Void where prohibited. Except in Indiana.
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2012-07-01, 01:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-07-01, 03:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
The Order definitely have their stupid moments. But as a team, they're not incompetent. All of them have displayed competence in battle (even Elan), and while Durkon, Belkar and Elan aren't the brightest bullseye lanterns in the general equipment list, I'd say that Roy, Haley and V balance them out fairly well. They've had many stuff-ups, but they've also had many victories. They're not great adventurers - but neither are they incompetent fools.
I'm not denying that they've done stupid things before, nor that a number of their members have a hole where their common sense should be. Incompetence is the lack of the ability to perform successfully. The Order don't lack that ability, they've been successful many times, especially in the more recent books. They've also been unsuccessful many times, but that doesn't make them incompetent.
Also, examples of the Order stuffing up in the Dungeon of Dorukan and Origin of PCs don't really count, as the OotS have greatly improved since those days.Last edited by Snippy; 2012-07-01 at 03:28 AM.
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2012-07-01, 03:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
Specific examples would be nice.
Also, examples of the Order stuffing up in the Dungeon of Dorukan and Origin of PCs don't really count, as the OotS have greatly improved since those days.
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2012-07-01, 04:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
...Is there some reason the evidence against your position is worse than the evidence for it? Because this paragraph amounts to "you're not allowed to use evidence from the comic to argue against me because I said so".
Sorry I took so long to asnwer, but I just had dinner.
Some examples of the OotS performing well:
*They win many battles in the first book, including against Xykon and the Guild.
*They don't do alot in the second book, but they manage to defeat a dragon and ogres. Belkar actually beats Miko in a fight but lets her survive just to keep the fight going.
*In the third book they defeat the Guild, twice. In the siege they lose, but we see competence displayed - V dismissing the elementals, defending the breach, Belkar killing hundreds of Hobgoblins on the battlefield, Haley killing almost as many with her bow.
*In the fourth book they defeat Kubota and the demon Qarr summons, as well as the Thieves Guild.
*In the recent book they defeat bandits, find the (false) location of the Gate, survive the arena, and defeat the Guild (with help from Malack, though).
Often the OotS succeeds with help from others, however they still perform competently. I didn't provide links, but you should recognize those.
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2012-07-01, 09:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
Y*They win many battles in the first book, including against Xykon and the Guild.
*In the third book they defeat the Guild, twice. In the siege they lose, but we see competence displayed - V dismissing the elementals, defending the breach, Belkar killing hundreds of Hobgoblins on the battlefield, Haley killing almost as many with her bow.
roy jumping on top of a dragon to try to beat soemone twice his level in a fight
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2012-07-01, 09:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
Yes. I think that's exactly the point. A lot of people hold the order on their own (arguebly grotesque) optimization standarts, eventually neglecting the fact that this is a story and not an actual P&P game group simulation.
Having optimized casters solve any problem with some spell without breaking a sweat might be compelling for certain P&P seasons, but not for telling a story.
But in the end everybody has his own motivations to read this comic.Playing Magic? Interested in trading? Try Pucatrade!
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2012-07-01, 09:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
i disagree i dont think people are saying "oh the order could be doing better because as a fighter roy should ahve been able to do X instead of Y" because there hasnt been a situation like that
people are saying "how dumb do you have to be to jump on top of a dragon to fight someone who can fly?"
that has nothing to do with optimizing roys character
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2012-07-01, 10:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
Ok.
Successfully cleared out the Dungeon of Durokan.
Successfully defeated the Linear Guild and delivered its ringleaders to local authorities.
Successfully put an end to the bandit brigade
Successfully defeated marauding ogres at the behest of Dirt Farmers
Successfully convinced Miko that her presumptions were incorrect (TWICE!)
Successfully conducted the evacuation operation of a burning inn.
Successfully defeated a Young Black Dragon.
Successfully Completed the trials surrounding the Oracle's Valley
Successfully survived Nale's ambush and, again, delivered the Linear Guild leadership to local authorities.
Successfully identified Xykon's deception and revealed his position before he could invisibly infiltrate the castle.
Successfully conducted months-long resistance efforts against a vastly martially superior foe.
Successfully defeated a gargantuine demon.
Successfully defeated an ancient black dragon.
Successfully won a war of attrition against overwhelming odds against a thieves' guild.
Successfully defeated the Linear Guild, capturing one member and killing an additional two with no significant losses.
Successfully explored Girard's Desert and beat all competitors to the presumed location of Girard's Gate.
So yeah, that is off the top of my head. Incompetent is defined as "bad at doing something: lacking the skills, qualities, or ability to do something properly."
The Order, clearly, gets things done. While they are not optimized, it is flatly dishonest to call them incompetent.Official Incense Aroma Specialist for the Vaarsuvius Fan Club!
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2012-07-01, 11:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
I dunno, it seems like some qualifications for them being "competent" seems to hinge on the same kind of logic that made the Light Warriors from 8-Bit Theater "heroes": "good deeds were done and we were nearby."
Like, the bandits were disbanded after their encounter with the Order, when after the OOTS had gone through a series of spectacularly bad judgment calls and repeated asskickings, the old leader mistook a tied-up Durkon for a potential ally, and Durkon "defeated" him without meaning to, and then the remaining bandits turned on him just as they'd turned on Samantha. That's what success looks like? There were individual moments of competency, particularly on Roy's part, but it largely seemed to me they blundered through the entire affair and then lucked out due to the fickle nature of their opponents.
It's like saying a natural disaster "gets things done". Clearly it does, but you don't characterize the disaster as "competent" as a result. That implies intent and direction -- competency is knowing what you want, being able to identify what's needed to get it, and through the deliberate application of your own personal skills achieving that desired result. If you misidentify what you want done and fail to get it, only to realize later what you actually wanted was what you wound up with anyway, you have not demonstrated "competency". If you know what you want and get it for reasons unrelated to your own actions, you have not demonstrated "competency".
I wouldn't say the Order is entirely inept, but it seems that their moments of demonstrable competency are there as punctuation in a general pattern of stumbling their way through the plot. They've gotten better about certain things. But they always retain a certain bumbling quality.
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2012-07-01, 11:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
Successfully cleared out the Dungeon of Durokan.
Successfully defeated the Linear Guild and delivered its ringleaders to local authorities.
Successfully put an end to the bandit brigade
Successfully defeated marauding ogres at the behest of Dirt Farmers
Successfully convinced Miko that her presumptions were incorrect (TWICE!)
Successfully conducted the evacuation operation of a burning inn
Successfully defeated a Young Black Dragon.
Successfully Completed the trials surrounding the Oracle's Valley
and when you consider THIS a victory you know your stretching since the trials arent designed to be hard
Successfully survived Nale's ambush and, again, delivered the Linear Guild leadership to local authorities.
Successfully identified Xykon's deception and revealed his position before he could invisibly infiltrate the castle.
Successfully conducted months-long resistance efforts against a vastly martially superior foe.
Successfully defeated an ancient black dragon.
Successfully won a war of attrition against overwhelming odds against a thieves' guild.
again, small fry
Successfully defeated the Linear Guild, capturing one member and killing an additional two with no significant losses.
Successfully explored Girard's Desert and beat all competitors to the presumed location of Girard's Gate.
they didnt beat all competitors to the location they LED the competitors to the location
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2012-07-01, 02:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
This line of argument assumes that Roy wouldn't ask his party Wizard for a spell list. That is absurd.
It also assumes that Roy wouldn't try to contact his missing friend and Heavy Artillery because he thinks only a Passwall would bring them together. That is also absurd.
Roy's team is so incompetant that ...
You're once again minimizing some logistical problems ...
...the last the Order saw of V she was bugging out her eyes and acting generally hysterical...
Your bald assertions have spawned detailed critiques, so to say there is no argument to be made is to deny the existence of these critiques
Second, and of greater relevance, I should have stated "There is no RATIONAL ARGUMENT that V is not an asset in combat" because none of the arguments against V's combat value are rational. There is a rational argument against spending the time to contact V's states: casting time.
... your reluctance to actually engage with the objections raised against your scheme.
(A) Casting time (which I acknowledged and suggested a remedy for)
(B) Maybe V can't get to Roy (which is a foolish argument since, to Roy, it is just as likely that V *can* get to Roy or in other ways be useful)
(C) V won't be helpful in combat (which is utter nonsense, based upon V's proven usefulness in dungeon combat since the very first comic)
I appreciate some don't approve of Roy attempting to get V back with the party and it is certainly true that casting time is a big issue; if Roy decides to have other priorities, well that's a choice someone has to make. It is also true that the Order screws up now and then, and that drove much of the humor of the early comic. However the party has gotten more skilled as it gained experience.
Indeed, Roy has made a POINT of gaining EXPERIENCE. One could imagine an entire WORLD dominated by the concept of becoming more effective as one gains points of experience.Last edited by rewinn; 2012-07-01 at 02:30 PM.
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2012-07-01, 03:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
the list of their foes is dominated by the Quick To Escape and the Dead.
when it comes down to it, theres no point in sending to V the only possible information they can get is if V is alive since they definently dont ahve time to cast 2 sendings and theyd need to know where V is before they can figure out what to tell him to do
and wether V is or is not alive is second priority to keeping the rest of them alive they can ressurect V they cant ressurect the entire party all available time the Order has needs to be spent getting the ambush ready thats simply not arguable
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2012-07-01, 04:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
(D) Roy thinks that V is already dead/incapacitated and unable to help
Reviewing comic # 848, I think that is a very real possibility. He likely feels that if V was able to help, she would have.
If there is a scroll of sending available (which there probably is), than sure. Hell, it is worth a try for 6 seconds.
But if not, I doubt they'd try it if Roy does think V has gone unavailable. He trusts (hahahaha) that V would be loyal to the party and help when she's able to do so - no message is necessary. We don't know the nature of the trap they're setting, so it is perfectly plausible that if V walks in she wouldn't set it off.
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2012-07-01, 05:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
I don't recall ever seeing a character in this comic conveying a look of such utter horror as when V's casting passwall.
Maybe Elan's face and posture here comes close, but V really looks to be on the brink of sanity in this strip.2012 Kickstart Pledge Drive Backer# 12,851
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2012-07-01, 06:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
None of those responses mean anything to the argument. You're just pointing out some related failures, or calling out 'small fry', with no evidence to support that claim.
Forikroder, we aren't arguing that OotS always have faultless victories, simply that they are not 'incompetent' as you say. In all of Fujin's examples the OotS succeeded, and you haven't been able to prove that wrong.
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2012-07-01, 06:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
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2012-07-01, 06:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-07-01, 06:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-07-01, 08:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
It is indeed great, but it's not like we have no basis for these characterizations. The parentheses-like eyebrows indicate that a character is disturbed or purturbed in some way. They've been knocked out of their comfort zone. The more eyebrows, the greater the magnitude of the purturbation. Boogastreehouse is on to something when he says V's more horrified than Elan - he's taking his cue from the eyebrows. V has three eyebrow markings, Elan has two. V is more purturbed than Elan.
You, meanwhile, are trying to identify the characters rather than the magnitudes of Elan's and V's respective emotional states. Elan is horrified, V panicked. This cue can be gleaned not from their eyebrows, but from their mouths. Elan's lower lip bends upward in the middle, while V's mouth is hanging as wide open as possible as she shouts her incantations at the top of her voice. Of course, there are contextual cues as well, such as Blackwing - who, being empathically linked with V is in a position to characterize her emotional state with confidence - calling V's actions motivated by panic. But it's there in the art too.
The Giant knows perfectly well what he's doing. The art is minimalistic, true, but there is enough there so that he can show us these cues and we can come up with analyses based on them. And yeah, that's a great thing.
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2012-07-01, 08:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-07-01, 09:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
Letting the bad guy escape at the end of the fight is such a basic element of serial storytelling I'm surprised I have to point it out. From Lex Luthor getting away from Superman a thousand times to Vader flying away after the Death Star explodes to supervillains escaping from James Bond in a secret rocket pod, foiling your antagonist while letting them go free to fight another day serves the needs of extended-format storytelling — it says nothing about the competence of the heroes, unless you want to call James Bond, Luke Skywalker, Superman, and the rest of the world's superheroes incompetent. "The heroes have won...but!" is a common and perfectly satisfying way to end a chapter. In fact (to bring this back to D&D), there was at least one article in Dragon listing ways to ensure an antagonist gets away at the end of the adventure, so they can return in a more powerful form at some future dramatic moment.