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    Default Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    You did, when you complained that Roy should have known about Redcloak if he had done research.
    who said knowing anything about redcloak? i just mean he should have known about the importance of the crimson mantle

    seems like Roy went into the dungeon without bothering to learn a thing about Lichs, Xykon nor who Xykon had working with him he probably jsut figured out where he was hired some adventurers and charged in

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    Default Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by rewinn View Post
    I think it was Jack Nicklaus who said that he wasn't all that good, just lucky; and the more he practiced, the luckier he got.
    As an avid golfer, I'm compelled to point out that this was actually Ben Hogan talking. Now, back to your regularly scheduled programming.
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    Default Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Forikroder View Post
    who said knowing anything about redcloak? i just mean he should have known about the importance of the crimson mantle
    You're absolutely right. Let me fix that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forikroder View Post
    who said anything about learning something about Xykon?

    he jsut has to research Lichs in general
    You did, when you complained that Roy should have known about the Crimson Mantle if he had done research.

    Huh, would ya look at that? Absolutely nothing in my argument changed.

    seems like Roy went into the dungeon without bothering to learn a thing about Lichs, Xykon nor who Xykon had working with him he probably jsut figured out where he was hired some adventurers and charged in
    OR he learned what he could, and that they have phylacteries is not something as commonly known as you seem to believe.

    OR he learned what he could and just didn't happen to learn that one bit of information.

    OR he botched his research check.
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    Default Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Forikroder View Post
    seems like Roy went into the dungeon without bothering to learn a thing about Lichs, Xykon nor who Xykon had working with him he probably jsut figured out where he was hired some adventurers and charged in
    No it doesn't. It seems like information on liches is lacking. As Roy, Vaarsuvius, and even Eugene (who spent a good portion of his life doing nothing BUT try and gather information on Xykon) all somehow missed out on the Phylactery's existence, then the logical conclusion is that the phylacteries' association with liches is not common knowledge.

    As I mentioned previously, the ONLY three characters who knew about phylacteries without being told by someone else in the entire strip are Xykon (who has one), Redcloak (who made one), and Soon.

    Every other character who is aware of its existence was told about it by one of those three (or at least learned of it from someone who learned of it from someone ... back to those three)

    Quote Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
    Sorry, can't let that pass.

    You're mixing up "competent" and "successful". Although there's generally a correlation between the two, it's entirely possible to be both incompetent and successful at a handful of select things (through luck) or both competent and unsuccessful at a number of things (through bad luck).
    No one is arguing about any of this. What is your point?
    Last edited by FujinAkari; 2012-07-02 at 09:08 PM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread

    OR he learned what he could, and that they have phylacteries is not something as commonly known as you seem to believe.

    OR he learned what he could and just didn't happen to learn that one bit of information.

    OR he botched his research check.
    ya research doesnt get a check there is no skill [research] and Roy has enough points in into to manage to figure out the most important fact of lichs

    theres absolutely no evidence at all tat Roy bothered to learn more then where Xykon is and how to get there nor has he ever mentioned putting any effort into learning anything at all about Xykon, certainly when his father told him about the Xykon he never said anything like "wierd i never heard anything about phylactyerys"

    besides the point still stands that he let redcloak escape, it doesnt take many ranks in spot to realise Redcloak was important, i mean when they kicked in the door he was standing right next to Xykon and was the only Goblin who didnt join in the fight but stayed near Xykon the entire time should be rpetty obvious this goblin was special and was more important then looting

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    Default Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Forikroder View Post
    ya research doesnt get a check there is no skill [research] and Roy has enough points in into to manage to figure out the most important fact of lichs

    theres absolutely no evidence at all tat Roy bothered to learn more then where Xykon is and how to get there nor has he ever mentioned putting any effort into learning anything at all about Xykon, certainly when his father told him about the Xykon he never said anything like "wierd i never heard anything about phylactyerys"

    besides the point still stands that he let redcloak escape, it doesnt take many ranks in spot to realise Redcloak was important, i mean when they kicked in the door he was standing right next to Xykon and was the only Goblin who didnt join in the fight but stayed near Xykon the entire time should be rpetty obvious this goblin was special and was more important then looting
    First, you can't say that I shouldn't take liberties with the rules and then take liberties with the rules yourself - research is indeed not a skill, but spot doesn't let you tell which people are important. Either both statements stand or both are stricken.

    Second, things can have happened in the comic without it being shown.

    Third, you seem to confuse the concept that Redcloak excape with the concept that Roy let Redcloak escape. The former would require stealth, cunning, or even just plain on Redcloak's part. The latter would require Roy to say, "hey, look at that red cloaked goblin escaping! I could stop him right now, but I think I'll let him go." So hey, here's another thing to step on one side of the fence on instead of just using argument when they're convenient and disallowing them when they're not. Either things can happen without it being shown or talked about, (that is, Roy let Redcloak escape, but you have to concede on your previous point), or they cannot (in which case Roy did not research at all, but letting Redcloak escape is invalidated).

    I'm genuinely intrigued here, as I've never seen you give up on any point you've tried to make, ever, but it would appear you now have to.
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    Default Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread

    First, you can't say that I shouldn't take liberties with the rules and then take liberties with the rules yourself - research is indeed not a skill, but spot doesn't let you tell which people are important. Either both statements stand or both are stricken.
    that makes no sense, research isnt a skill and i never said spot tells you who is importnat but when you see a goblin cleric standing right next to Xykon the entire fight its pretty obvious hes not some mook especially when you know hes a cleric

    Third, you seem to confuse the concept that Redcloak excape with the concept that Roy let Redcloak escape. The former would require stealth, cunning, or even just plain on Redcloak's part. The latter would require Roy to say, "hey, look at that red cloaked goblin escaping! I could stop him right now, but I think I'll let him go." So hey, here's another thing to step on one side of the fence on instead of just using argument when they're convenient and disallowing them when they're not. Either things can happen without it being shown or talked about, (that is, Roy let Redcloak escape, but you have to concede on your previous point), or they cannot (in which case Roy did not research at all, but letting Redcloak escape is invalidated).

    I'm genuinely intrigued here, as I've never seen you give up on any point you've tried to make, ever, but it would appear you now have to.
    i dont see how Roy didnt let Redcloak escape, he was standing RIGHT NEXT to the escape tunnel when redcloak started heading for it

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    Default Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by FujinAkari View Post
    My list isn't. My list is designed to prove that the label of incompetent is an outright fabrication. Incompetent is defined as being unable to do something, and despite misadventures, the Order consistantly accomplishes their goals.
    If "competency" means "knowing what you want, being able to identify what's needed to get it, and through the deliberate application of your own personal skills achieving that desired result," incompetency means something more specific than "unable to do something."

    Your list makes note of moments in which the Order got something done without displaying a great deal of "competency" as if that disproves a charge of "incompetency" -- because you've defined "incompetency" so broadly that its reverse could apply to natural disasters, who after all get things done.

    Quote Originally Posted by FujinAkari View Post
    No one is arguing about any of this. What is your point?
    The heck? You were arguing that the bandit camp episode was evidence against the Order being "incompetent," despite the fact that they made terrible calls throughout and then came out on top due to sheer, dumb luck. That is indeed confusing success with competency, and it's because of your overly broad definition.
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    Default Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Forikroder View Post
    that makes no sense, research isnt a skill and i never said spot tells you who is importnat but when you see a goblin cleric standing right next to Xykon the entire fight its pretty obvious hes not some mook especially when you know hes a cleric
    Quote Originally Posted by Forikroder View Post
    i never said spot tells you who is importnat
    Let me refresh your memory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Forikroder View Post
    it doesnt take many ranks in spot to realise Redcloak was important
    Please stop trying to say "Things are this way!" and then immediately after being called out on it claim you never said "things are this way!"
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    Default Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread

    Please stop trying to say "Things are this way!" and then immediately after being called out on it claim you never said "things are this way!"
    are you jsut trolling here?

    i was pretty sure it was obvious that what i meant was "it doesnt take much ranks in spot to see the goblin standing right next to Xykon which should be obvious that he is then important"

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    Default Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Forikroder
    ya research doesnt get a check there is no skill [research] and Roy has enough points in into to manage to figure out the most important fact of lichs
    Yeah... except there is.

    Quote Originally Posted by d20 srd
    Knowledge (Int; Trained Only)

    Like the Craft and Profession skills, Knowledge actually encompasses a number of unrelated skills. Knowledge represents a study of some body of lore, possibly an academic or even scientific discipline.

    Below are listed typical fields of study.

    Arcana (ancient mysteries, magic traditions, arcane symbols, cryptic phrases, constructs, dragons, magical beasts)
    Architecture and engineering (buildings, aqueducts, bridges, fortifications)
    Dungeoneering (aberrations, caverns, oozes, spelunking)
    Geography (lands, terrain, climate, people)
    History (royalty, wars, colonies, migrations, founding of cities)
    Local (legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, humanoids)
    Nature (animals, fey, giants, monstrous humanoids, plants, seasons and cycles, weather, vermin)
    Nobility and royalty (lineages, heraldry, family trees, mottoes, personalities)
    Religion (gods and goddesses, mythic history, ecclesiastic tradition, holy symbols, undead)
    The planes (the Inner Planes, the Outer Planes, the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, outsiders, elementals, magic related to the planes)

    Answering a question within your field of study has a DC of 10 (for really easy questions), 15 (for basic questions), or 20 to 30 (for really tough questions).

    In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monsterís HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster.

    For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information.
    Obviously, Knowledge (religion) and Knowledge (arcana) are not something Roy is gonna have a lot of skill points in. But let's say Roy sat down with Durkon and really hit the books on this one. That gives them a +2 bonus from the "aid another" effect for working together. We'll also give them a circumstance bonus of +10 for scouring all the books they can find, which is pretty high. The maximum ranks that a 12th level Durkon can have in Knowledge (religion) is 15, so we'll say for the sake of argument he has max ranks, even though there's pretty good evidence that he doesn't. Durkon really doesn't want to screw this one up, so he casts "guidance" before making the check, giving them another +1 bonus. That makes the total bonus to this check +28. The average roll of a d20 is 10.5, but we'll round up for this example. That gives them a check of... 39! We'll call it 40, for rounding's sake. That's really good, right? Normally, the DC for knowing what a monster is is 10+HD, but liches have variable numbers of hit die, so we'll just eyeball it and peg it at 15. Okay! They beat the check by 25! That means they get to know 5 additional pieces of useful information about liches! So, go look up the lich entry. It's okay, I'll wait.

    ...

    Yeah. You read that right. There are, by my count, approximately 13-17 pieces of useful information that a DM could give the characters about Liches, depending on how you divide them up. And they get 5. So, even using the best resources available to him... Roy's chances of finding out that liches have a phylactery that he needs to worry about? About 1 in 3.

    The same thing applies if they use V and Knowledge (arcana). Yes, this is just back-of-the-napkin math. I'm sure there are better ways for Roy and Durkon to go about it, and I may have overlooked something, but I think it illustrates the general point well enough.
    Last edited by rgrekejin; 2012-07-02 at 10:18 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by rgrekejin View Post
    Yeah... except there is.



    Obviously, Knowledge (religion) and Knowledge (arcana) are not something Roy is gonna have a lot of skill points in. But let's say Roy sat down with Durkon and really hit the books on this one. That gives them a +2 bonus from the "aid another" effect for working together. We'll also give them a circumstance bonus of +10 for scouring all the books they can find, which is pretty high. The maximum ranks that a 12th level Durkon can have in Knowledge (religion) is 15, so we'll say for the sake of argument he has max ranks, even though there's pretty good evidence that he doesn't. Durkon really doesn't want to screw this one up, so he casts "guidance" before making the check, giving them another +1 bonus. That makes the total bonus to this check +28. The average roll of a d20 is 10.5, but we'll round up for this example. That gives them a check of... 39! We'll call it 40, for rounding's sake. That's really good, right? Normally, the DC for knowing what a monster is is 10+HD, but liches have variable numbers of hit die, so we'll just eyeball it and peg it at 15. Okay! They beat the check by 25! That means they get to know 5 additional pieces of useful information about liches! So, go look up the lich entry. It's okay, I'll wait.

    ...

    Yeah. You read that right. There are, by my count, approximately 13-17 pieces of useful information that a DM could give the characters about Liches, depending on how you divide them up. And they get 5. So, even using the best resources available to him... Roy's chances of finding out that liches have a phylactery that he needs to worry about? About 1 in 3.

    The same thing applies if they use V and Knowledge (arcana). Yes, this is just back-of-the-napkin math. I'm sure there are better ways for Roy and Durkon to go about it, and I may have overlooked something, but I think it illustrates the general point well enough.
    1. i thought you were ignoring me?
    2. Knowledge is about what the character knows on hand
    3. knowledge has nothing to do with going into a library and looking up a monster

    you make knowledge checks to show what your character already knows at that point about a monster not what its possible for your character to figure out about the monster

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    Default Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread

    I'm beginning to understand why it takes elves decades to learn magic.

    Obviously, they discuss their lessons on forums like this one.

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    Default Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread

    Forikroder, the point of the whole 'scouring the library' thing is to give Roy every possible advantage in making the Knowledge check. If Roy didn't do that beforehand, his chances of finding out anything about the phylactery on a Know(X) check go WAY down for lack of the circumstance bonus, and your argument becomes even weaker. There are other ways to represent research (such as a Gather Information check with appropriate modifiers, though again you aren't looking at typical use case). A bare Int check, which is what you originally suggested, is a TERRIBLE way to represent research.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forikroder View Post
    that makes no sense, research isnt a skill and i never said spot tells you who is importnat but when you see a goblin cleric standing right next to Xykon the entire fight its pretty obvious hes not some mook especially when you know hes a cleric



    i dont see how Roy didnt let Redcloak escape, he was standing RIGHT NEXT to the escape tunnel when redcloak started heading for it
    Roy didn't care about Redcloak. As far as Roy was concerned, Redcloak was some lieutenant of the one person he wanted to destroy. Roy doesn't know the significance of the red cloak, nor should he. The fact that Redcloak is important is a consequence of the fact that the plot is about much more than the objective Roy&co. had when they entered the Dungeon of Dorukan.
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    Default Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Forikroder View Post
    who said knowing anything about redcloak? i just mean he should have known about the importance of the crimson mantle
    You are so far beyond beyond your limb that Wile E. Coyote has already crawled out of his Wile E. shaped hole, pulled up an easy chair, starting snacking on popcorn, while laughing at what is about to happen when you look down.

    The significance of the crimson mantle is extremely, extremely rare knowledge, kept close by both the few of goblinkind in the know and the Sapphire Guard.

    The Sapphire Guard does not want to openly acknowledge the a potential world threat, because, gee someone like Xykon might seek out an alliance. (Who did the seeking in this case is irrelevant. What is relevant is that the crimson mantle yields secrets that can strike fear into the hearts of gods.)

    Goblinkind does not pass this information around because they do not want to be hunted by all. Furthermore it is not necessary. The mantle itself imparts all requisite knowledge. Goblins only need understand the mantle is somehow important.

    seems like Roy went into the dungeon without bothering to learn a thing about Lichs, Xykon nor who Xykon had working with him he probably jsut figured out where he was hired some adventurers and charged in
    Roy did definitely miss an important detail about liches. It is an important detail that Eugene seemed rather fuzzy on as well. Adding V. to the list, we have three brainiacs who apparently did not know what you are claiming is obvious.

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    Default Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by rgrekejin View Post
    The same thing applies if they use V and Knowledge (arcana). Yes, this is just back-of-the-napkin math. I'm sure there are better ways for Roy and Durkon to go about it, and I may have overlooked something, but I think it illustrates the general point well enough.
    I really liked that post.

    I think some really well thought out questions asked via Commune could have been probative. Probably not to the phylactery specifically... but something that would have warned him sufficiently regardless.

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    Default Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread

    Forikroder, the point of the whole 'scouring the library' thing is to give Roy every possible advantage in making the Knowledge check. If Roy didn't do that beforehand, his chances of finding out anything about the phylactery on a Know(X) check go WAY down for lack of the circumstance bonus, and your argument becomes even weaker. There are other ways to represent research (such as a Gather Information check with appropriate modifiers, though again you aren't looking at typical use case). A bare Int check, which is what you originally suggested, is a TERRIBLE way to represent research.
    as far as i know there are no rules for this type of research so id say a straight int check would make most sense (definently not a Cha based gather information)

    although really its hard to say if any check would be needed (maybe a search check to find the book(s) your looking for then an int check to see how well you remember the info)

    Roy didn't care about Redcloak. As far as Roy was concerned, Redcloak was some lieutenant of the one person he wanted to destroy. Roy doesn't know the significance of the red cloak, nor should he. The fact that Redcloak is important is a consequence of the fact that the plot is about much more than the objective Roy&co. had when they entered the Dungeon of Dorukan.
    i think lack of knowledge shows some of there incompetence (not much though)

    You are so far beyond beyond your limb that Wile E. Coyote has already crawled out of his Wile E. shaped hole, pulled up an easy chair, starting snacking on popcorn, while laughing at what is about to happen when you look down.

    The significance of the crimson mantle is extremely, extremely rare knowledge, kept close by both the few of goblinkind in the know and the Sapphire Guard.

    The Sapphire Guard does not want to openly acknowledge the a potential world threat, because, gee someone like Xykon might seek out an alliance. (Who did the seeking in this case is irrelevant. What is relevant is that the crimson mantle yields secrets that can strike fear into the hearts of gods.)

    Goblinkind does not pass this information around because they do not want to be hunted by all. Furthermore it is not necessary. The mantle itself imparts all requisite knowledge. Goblins only need understand the mantle is somehow important.
    im sure the Saphire guard passed around the knowledge that any goblin wearing a crimson mantle is the high priest of the goblins dark god and should be considered extremely dangerous and killed on sight they dont have to let everyone know about the gates to let people know Crimsom Mantle = dangerous evil dude

    Roy did definitely miss an important detail about liches. It is an important detail that Eugene seemed rather fuzzy on as well. Adding V. to the list, we have three brainiacs who apparently did not know what you are claiming is obvious.
    wether V did or did not know is unclear since V was paralyzed during the fight and what happened wasnt explained to V afterwards nor did V bother asking for much details since pretty much as soon as he recovered use of his mental faculties they were busy escaping the exploding dungeon
    Last edited by Forikroder; 2012-07-02 at 10:39 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gusion View Post
    I really liked that post.

    I think some really well thought out questions asked via Commune could have been probative. Probably not to the phylactery specifically... but something that would have warned him sufficiently regardless.
    Thank you. Yes, there is probably some work that could be done with divination magic, but exactly how that stuff works tends to vary widely with DMs, so I don't really want to focus on it very much.

    ...although in retrospect, I really should have said either "cocktail-napkin math" or "back-of-the-envelope math". I don't think "back-of-the-napkin math" is a thing. I mean, most napkins don't even really have a definitive top or bottom, do they? They're the same on both sides.
    Last edited by rgrekejin; 2012-07-03 at 12:46 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Forikroder View Post
    as far as i know there are no rules for this type of research so id say a straight int check would make most sense (definently not a Cha based gather information)

    although really its hard to say if any check would be needed (maybe a search check to find the book(s) your looking for then an int check to see how well you remember the info)
    Assuming the book exists. Assuming you can find out, not just where in the library, but where in the WORLD it is located. Or perhaps you're looking for one of the few people in the world who know anything about liches. And all this is still just to throw you a bone, since there isn't a way in the world for Roy to know this stuff if he DIDN'T do exhaustive research. If it's an INT check you want, V didn't know either. I believe Eugene knew about the phylactery before Xykon blew up, given his wording here and his understanding of what a lich is in SoD, but he obviously didn't share that knowledge, which is HIS incompetence and not Roy's.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forikroder View Post
    i think lack of knowledge shows some of there incompetence (not much though)
    Knowledge they couldn't be expected to have shows nothing about anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forikroder View Post
    im sure the Saphire guard passed around the knowledge that any goblin wearing a crimson mantle is the high priest of the goblins dark god and should be considered extremely dangerous and killed on sight they dont have to let everyone know about the gates to let people know Crimsom Mantle = dangerous evil dude
    Doesn't mean they did. "I'm sure they did" is not a strong argument. The lack of anyone outside the Sapphire Guard (and goblinkind) who knew about the red cloak would indicate otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forikroder View Post
    wether V did or did not know is unclear since V was paralyzed during the fight and what happened wasnt explained to V afterwards nor did V bother asking for much details since pretty much as soon as he recovered use of his mental faculties they were busy escaping the exploding dungeon
    Pretty sure "That dude's a lich with a phylactery" would have come up at some point if V had recognized that Xykon was, in fact, a lich with a phylactery. He DID get an opportunity to look at Xykon before V was paralyzed and Xykon blown up.
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    Default Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Dandelion View Post
    If "competency" means "knowing what you want, being able to identify what's needed to get it, and through the deliberate application of your own personal skills achieving that desired result," incompetency means something more specific than "unable to do something."

    Your list makes note of moments in which the Order got something done without displaying a great deal of "competency" as if that disproves a charge of "incompetency" -- because you've defined "incompetency" so broadly that its reverse could apply to natural disasters, who after all get things done.
    Most of the moments in Fujin's list actually fit your definition (which is the correct one, I agree). I think the only one that doesn't is the Bandit Camp example. Obviously in some of the other instances they might have had some good luck to help them on the way, but it was mostly done through their own skills.

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    Default Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Snippy View Post
    Most of the moments in Fujin's list actually fit your definition (which is the correct one, I agree). I think the only one that doesn't is the Bandit Camp example. Obviously in some of the other instances they might have had some good luck to help them on the way, but it was mostly done through their own skills.
    I thought about 2/3rds of her list was pretty good under my definition, even speaking conservatively. I had dispute with more than just the bandit camp, though -- like, they specifically failed to evacuate the inn, Elan tried and only got one person out. We saw Miko picking up the slack elsewhere. I went down the list already.

    My general feelings on the Order's competency are I think summed up pretty well by Roy when he calls them "semi-trained quasi-professionals". They're not completely incompetent, no. But they're often... under-competent for the task at hand. They tend to understand at best about half of what's going on, and they do a lot of blundering around.
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    Default Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Dandelion View Post
    My general feelings on the Order's competency are I think summed up pretty well by Roy when he calls them "semi-trained quasi-professionals". They're not completely incompetent, no. But they're often... under-competent for the task at hand. They tend to understand at best about half of what's going on, and they do a lot of blundering around.
    Good, that's roughly my view as well. I just get a little irked when people describe them as flat-out incompetent.

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    Default Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Snippy View Post
    Good, that's roughly my view as well. I just get a little irked when people describe them as flat-out incompetent.
    It's just as irritating when people describe them as flat-out competent despite all the evidence to the contrary, though...

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    Default Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    It's just as irritating when people describe them as flat-out competent despite all the evidence to the contrary, though...
    They are flat-out competent though . It's just that they've been shoved into a campaign that requires significantly more competence than they currently have. If Roy and the Order were coming into this Xykon ordeal, say, one year and five or so levels later, they may be sufficiently badass to be the proactive protagonists in a campaign featuring epic lich sorcery, apocalyptic catastrophes and evil mastermind tyrants.

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    Default Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by oppyu View Post
    They are flat-out competent though . It's just that they've been shoved into a campaign that requires significantly more competence than they currently have. If Roy and the Order were coming into this Xykon ordeal, say, one year and five or so levels later, they may be sufficiently badass to be the proactive protagonists in a campaign featuring epic lich sorcery, apocalyptic catastrophes and evil mastermind tyrants.
    This is so. And to go a little further ... competency IRL is different from competency in heroic literature.

    If the OOTSverse were IRL, the obvious and only sane thing for V and Durkon to do would be to contact their arcane and divine sponsors, respectively, to report that there's an evil lich sorcerer out to get a doodad that could let him rule the world. V's master and Durkon's order of clerics could mount a much better defense of the Gates than could the Order and the tag-ends of Azure City (...indeed one wonders why the elves, if appraised of AC's fall, would not be taking action even now. It may be that, as in LotR, there are a lot of battles going on offscreen that the author barely alludes to, because That's Not The Story We're Telling Right Now).

    However, let's say Durkon telephones Thor with a warning. Were Thor a rational human/dwarf/elf/goblin, Thor would squash Xykon promptly and easily. But that's not how the gods work. They've populated OOTSworld with creatures using an XP system either for their own amusement or as a way to eliminate world-threatening sorcerer-liches without any effort on their part. This is so ingrained in the structure of the world that it doesn't even occur to Durkon to warn Thor.

    Why V doesn't contact V's master is a bigger mystery, but perhaps it's related to Kay's Observation:
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    "There's always an Arquillian Battle Cruiser, or a Corillian Death Ray, or an intergalactic plague that is about to wipe out all life on this miserable little planet, and the only way these people can get on with their happy lives is that they DO NOT KNOW ABOUT IT!

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    Default Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Forikroder View Post
    as far as i know there are no rules for this type of research so id say a straight int check would make most sense (definently not a Cha based gather information)
    Dude... the rules were JUST QUOTED TO YOU

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    Knowledge (Int; Trained Only)

    Like the Craft and Profession skills, Knowledge actually encompasses a number of unrelated skills. Knowledge represents a study of some body of lore, possibly an academic or even scientific discipline.

    Below are listed typical fields of study.

    Arcana (ancient mysteries, magic traditions, arcane symbols, cryptic phrases, constructs, dragons, magical beasts)
    Architecture and engineering (buildings, aqueducts, bridges, fortifications)
    Dungeoneering (aberrations, caverns, oozes, spelunking)
    Geography (lands, terrain, climate, people)
    History (royalty, wars, colonies, migrations, founding of cities)
    Local (legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, humanoids)
    Nature (animals, fey, giants, monstrous humanoids, plants, seasons and cycles, weather, vermin)
    Nobility and royalty (lineages, heraldry, family trees, mottoes, personalities)
    Religion (gods and goddesses, mythic history, ecclesiastic tradition, holy symbols, undead)
    The planes (the Inner Planes, the Outer Planes, the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, outsiders, elementals, magic related to the planes)

    Answering a question within your field of study has a DC of 10 (for really easy questions), 15 (for basic questions), or 20 to 30 (for really tough questions).

    In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monsterís HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster.

    For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information.
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    Default Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by rewinn View Post
    This is so. And to go a little further ... competency IRL is different from competency in heroic literature.

    If the OOTSverse were IRL, the obvious and only sane thing for V and Durkon to do would be to contact their arcane and divine sponsors, respectively, to report that there's an evil lich sorcerer out to get a doodad that could let him rule the world. V's master and Durkon's order of clerics could mount a much better defense of the Gates than could the Order and the tag-ends of Azure City
    That's quite an assertion.
    (...indeed one wonders why the elves, if appraised of AC's fall, would not be taking action even now.
    Apparently one who didn't see the elves send a team which got ground under Redcloak's foot. Or possibly one very invested in the concept that the Order isn't--irrespective of how competent they are in using their power--very powerful by the standards of the world where they exist.
    However, let's say Durkon telephones Thor with a warning. Were Thor a rational human/dwarf/elf/goblin, Thor would squash Xykon promptly and easily. But that's not how the gods work.
    Indeed, the gods are unable to act against each other for fear of causing another free-for-all like the one which created the Snarl to begin with. Xykon, whether he knows it or not (and he doesn't), is one of the Dark One's champions in this matter, therefore the other gods will only act against him through mortal champions of their own.

    ...That does not appear to be the reason you are claiming exists for Thor not to smash Xykon, however.
    Why V doesn't contact V's master is a bigger mystery, but perhaps it's related to Kay's Observation:
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    "There's always an Arquillian Battle Cruiser, or a Corillian Death Ray, or an intergalactic plague that is about to wipe out all life on this miserable little planet, and the only way these people can get on with their happy lives is that they DO NOT KNOW ABOUT IT!
    Perhaps it's related to the way the only indication we have that Vaarsuvius didn't eclipse his/her master when s/he cast his/her first sixth-level spell, is the implied-and-not-even-actually-given word of three archfiends.
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    "You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan

    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    Default Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    I sure don't. I care a great deal about the direction the story's going; to be precise, his/her blubbering about having accidentally killed the Draketooths has me concerned that those of us who want Vaarsuvius to pay for his/her actions are going to be fobbed off with, "S/he feels guilty for something connected to the Familicide! That makes up for the fact that s/he will never acknowledge that what s/he was trying to do was a horrific Xykon-level atrocity, unintended consequences be damned!"

    As long as the deal with IFCC is hanging over her head, V hasn't "gotten away" with anything. There's also the murder of a unsymphathetic human being for very shallow reasons. And the fact that there's going to be a retaliation towards good dragons.

    Perhaps you're more worried that V will be too sympthatetic to the audience when her fate catches up with her.

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    Default Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Math_Mage View Post
    As an avid golfer, I'm compelled to point out that this was actually Ben Hogan talking. Now, back to your regularly scheduled programming.
    TY. I have no ranks in Arcane Knowlege (golf).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    That's quite an assertion.
    Thank you. You're very kind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post

    Apparently one who didn't see the elves send a team which got ground under Redcloak's foot.
    ...and who appreciates that a couple of teams of Special Ops is rather different from the full force of a kingdom.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    ...Or possibly one very invested in the concept that the Order isn't--irrespective of how competent they are in using their power--very powerful by the standards of the world where they exist.
    That's quite an assertion, both as to my personal investment (which is irrelevant) and as to the Order's power level relative to OOTSverse. Certainly they're very powerful as a team, but do you seriously think that they are more powerful than the Elven kingdoms? The evidence is that OOTS (minus Durkon) could not take down *one* of Azure City's top warriors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Indeed, the gods are unable to act against each other for fear of causing another free-for-all like the one which created the Snarl to begin with. Xykon, whether he knows it or not (and he doesn't), is one of the Dark One's champions in this matter, therefore the other gods will only act against him through mortal champions of their own.
    That is a fine, non-snarky argument for Thor's inaction. It doesn't explain Durkon's silence on the matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    That does not appear to be the reason you are claiming exists for Thor not to smash Xykon, however.
    Correct. I think Thor doesn't know Xykon exists, or at least know his plan. Thor, and the gods of OOTSverse generally, lacks omniscience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    ... the only indication we have that Vaarsuvius didn't eclipse his/her master when s/he cast his/her first sixth-level spell, is the implied-and-not-even-actually-given word of three archfiends.
    Much of OOTSverse is unknown to us, but we know that V is far from the pre-eminent wizard of the age:
    * Both Z and Leeky Windstaff are roughly V's level and were not the leaders of their party
    * AC had a wizard of roughly V's level
    Now time has gone by; V's earned levels. There's no evidence that the living arcanists haven't done the same. Indeed earning levels is part of the expressed purpose of OOTSworld.

    Certainly reasonable minds may differ as to whether, when faced with an Epic Level Evil Lich Sorceror, an Artifact-Enhanced Evil High Priest, and a Monster In The Dark, the best thing to do is (A) to send a message to powerful friends, or (B) to handle it heroically on your own. Keep in mind that the last time Roy decided to do it on his own, he ended up testing the gravity on OOTSworld.
    Last edited by rewinn; 2012-07-03 at 01:17 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by rewinn View Post
    Correct. I think Thor doesn't know Xykon exists, or at least know his plan. Thor, and the gods of OOTSverse generally, lacks omniscience.
    If the Southern Gods got after Thor for trying to help in the heat of battle, then how would the Western Gods react to Thor acting directly?

    Plus with the black-out of knowledge about the Rift, they still probably would not act. As far as we know the Gods didn't help out the Scribblers, so why would they act against Xykon?
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