OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread

[Forikroder]

They didn't.

thats why i said IF

[HZ514]

Loved the impact of the mummy dropping in on V and saying "your fault" in what I can only assume to be the most haunting monotone ever. When the mummies repeated random phrases, it seemed to be just that, random. But this was the perfect payoff for it. Well done, Rich!

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(Read the strip minutes after it was updated, just posted my impression now. Here's why.)

I must admit that Forikroder's incessant nonsense singlehandedly made me stop reading the forums of my favorite webcomic (or any online publication) of all time. The insightful and entertaining posts from the likes of Kish and ThePhantasm--to leave out more than a few worthy posters--were constantly outweighed by the inane dribble that always came with a Forikroder post.

Thank the twelve gods for the ignore feature, no idea why I didn't use it before. I guess it just seemed silly? But now it seems necessary. To paraphrase a certain other return to action...

Beating heart...breathing lungs...positive impression of the forum...I'M BACK IN THE GAME!

Edit: Spoiler tagged the off-topic section of my post.

[oppyu]

That's a great point, forikroder! I can't believe I never thought of framing the comic in that context! It's a shame that anyone with you on their ignore list will never see the benefits of your epiphany. In fact, you should edit said epiphany out right now, just to punish the people with you on their ignore list.

[HZ514]

Har har oppyu.

Anyway, whenever a character is dazed and saying silly things like Blackwing in panel 1, I always think back to Elan's "How important is one of these?" line in strip 6. Even though I suppose he isn't actually doing the exact same thing, that line made me snort milk onto my computer screen as a sixth grader almost ten (!) years ago so it's stuck with me. /nostalgia

[lio45]

That's a great point, forikroder! I can't believe I never thought of framing the comic in that context! It's a shame that anyone with you on their ignore list will never see the benefits of your epiphany. In fact, you should edit said epiphany out right now, just to punish the people with you on their ignore list.

I've never had anyone on my ignore list, but I'm all but certain that when you do, the ignored posts still show, with the post details (user, time of post) visible as if it were a regular post in the thread, but the contents aren't shown. (And you can click on a 'show post' button to manually override the ignore list in single cases.)

So, in a nutshell, nice try but no.

[oppyu]

I've never had anyone on my ignore list, but I'm all but certain that when you do, the ignored posts still show, with the post details (user, time of post) visible as if it were a regular post in the thread, but the contents aren't shown. (And you can click on a 'show post' button to manually override the ignore list in single cases.)

So, in a nutshell, nice try but no.

Hmph. Well, how about I test that by putting you on my ignore list . That would show you, yes it would.

What are the odds that V's just going to run headfirst into another trap?

[ti'esar]

I've never had anyone on my ignore list, but I'm all but certain that when you do, the ignored posts still show, with the post details (user, time of post) visible as if it were a regular post in the thread, but the contents aren't shown. (And you can click on a 'show post' button to manually override the ignore list in single cases.)

So, in a nutshell, nice try but no.

Yep. The text is just replaced by "This message is hidden because [X] is on your ignore list." Everything else is still there.

[Felixc-91]

Perhaps Eugene did know before he died.

After all,

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He only seemed to expect Roy to diddle around and maybe look into the Xykon matter so he could relay the information to Julia so she could do it, because as a Fighter Roy is assumed to be incapable of even looking at a spellcaster without dying (in Eugene's mind).

It wouldn't surprise me that he would either simply leave it out in telling Roy, assuming the above, or expect Roy to know because the precise areas covered by what Eugene thinks are common knowledge and what actually constitute common knowledge are probably unlikely to overlap much.

If the internet hadn't eaten it the first time this would have been up hours sooner
Ok, not telling Roy because Eugene thought he would be useless anyway seems like a bit of a stretch, particularly if Roy is supposed to hand off the info to Julia. Why handicap the handicapped? Particularly given that that piece of info is key to actually succeeding in the quest and that not having it could get Roy killed. You risk having Roy annoying X with no chance of killing him and then having X hunt down Roy and his family members...
On the other hand expecting Roy to already know about the phylactery is more possible, but given Eugene's distain for fighters it seems like he would be more likely to assume Roy didn't know. I guess this possibility would depend most on how many people actually know about phylacteries in general, something that is still up for debate. ( it seems to me to be uncommon knowledge but I can’t prove it at this point)

[ThePhantasm]

So much ignoring going on in this thread.

I guess that means this thread is full of ignorance...

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Its a joke, everyone. I'm not calling you stupid.

Anyone want to speculate about where V is passwalling to? I'm thinking that her passwall will give her a shortcut to the Gate room. There the IFCC will take control of her, and the Order will defeat the LG somehow only to get to the room and find traitor-V waiting for them.

Thoughts?

[Mike Havran]

V's going to passwall to another part of the pyramid, then find her way just in time to trigger all spells and traps that the Order has managed to lay as a part of their ambush.

[Forikroder]

If the internet hadn't eaten it the first time this would have been up hours sooner
Ok, not telling Roy because Eugene thought he would be useless anyway seems like a bit of a stretch, particularly if Roy is supposed to hand off the info to Julia. Why handicap the handicapped? Particularly given that that piece of info is key to actually succeeding in the quest and that not having it could get Roy killed. You risk having Roy annoying X with no chance of killing him and then having X hunt down Roy and his family members...
On the other hand expecting Roy to already know about the phylactery is more possible, but given Eugene's distain for fighters it seems like he would be more likely to assume Roy didn't know. I guess this possibility would depend most on how many people actually know about phylacteries in general, something that is still up for debate. ( it seems to me to be uncommon knowledge but I can’t prove it at this point)

Ochul knew about Phylacterys so its hard to say how uncommon it is

[rgrekejin]

Anyone want to speculate about where V is passwalling to? I'm thinking that her passwall will give her a shortcut to the Gate room. There the IFCC will take control of her, and the Order will defeat the LG somehow only to get to the room and find traitor-V waiting for them.

Thoughts?

I don't think the passwall will get V directly to the Gate room (I suspect it to be more difficult to access than that, even if the living defenders are all dead), but a shortcut that allows her to beat the others to it? Yeah, I think that seems likely. I also think that the IFCC are going to take control of V here, but I don't know if it will be before or after the rest of the Order shows up at the gate.

On the other hand, I expect that there will be some still-active magical defenses closer to the gate. Permanent illusions cooked up by Girard himself before he died or something. I don't know that V herself would be able to navigate them in her current state. Maybe a Fiend-controlled V could, but I'm not expecting the IFCC to spend their time in that manner. But suffice it to say I'm anxiously awaiting what happens next.

[Throknor]

Ochul knew about Phylacterys so its hard to say how uncommon it is

But he could have learned from : "Hey! This one time Xykon was killed and he regrew in Redcloak's necklace!"

Or he could just have figured it out when Soon mentioned it.

[FujinAkari]

But he could have learned from : "Hey! This one time Xykon was killed and he regrew in Redcloak's necklace!"

Or he could just have figured it out when Soon mentioned it.

Hrmmm... this looks awfully familiar... didn't I already make this point? I wonder why Forik is still trying to make this argument...

As I mentioned previously, the ONLY three characters who knew about phylacteries without being told by someone else in the entire strip are Xykon (who has one), Redcloak (who made one), and Soon.

Every other character who is aware of its existence was told about it by one of those three (or at least learned of it from someone who learned of it from someone ... back to those three)

[Forikroder]

But he could have learned from : "Hey! This one time Xykon was killed and he regrew in Redcloak's necklace!"

Or he could just have figured it out when Soon mentioned it.

oh yeah i forgot he was in the throne room

[Bulldog Psion]

Damn, that ignore feature is pretty spiffy. I actually like the fact that it shows you the messages that you can't read -- it lets you gloat over not seeing the latest stuff from ... whoever.

But yes, it seems unlikely the Passwall will lead directly to the Gate. However, I suspect it will be more significant than just another random space.

[rewinn]

I think the answer is rather obvious.

Pride is a son of a bitch. And we know for a fact that V has it in spades.

Yes. Indeed, pride is a classical heroic failing.

Heroes have failings; that makes for good story. It is more plausible that the Order has failings (especially pride) than that they are incompetent.

If the Southern Gods got after Thor for trying to help in the heat of battle, then how would the Western Gods react to Thor acting directly?

Plus with the black-out of knowledge about the Rift, they still probably would not act. As far as we know the Gods didn't help out the Scribblers, so why would they act against Xykon?

Those are good, non-snarky arguments for inaction by the Western gods (...although not by the Twelve). However, they don't address Durkon's silence. This is not necessarily a story flaw, a great many fantasy plots are based on the idea that, faced with great danger, no-one simply calls the cops.

Is it? We know nothing of the Elves' military capabilities....
We do know that the elves have been forced by their own deficit hawkery, and not external pressure, to abandon actual fortified territory.

Lack of knowledge cuts either way. The abandonment of settlements for economic reasons doesn't argue for military weakness, especially in a world dominated by individual heroic combat capability. IRL, in a world that placed greater value on organized mooks than on individual heroes, the Brits lost Roanoke, and ultimate the 13 Colonies, yet somehow managed pretty well for centuries.

Within the last thirty years one of their Epic spellcasters was defeated by a pre-Epic Xykon.

If the EK have Epic spellcasters, they are almost by definition more powerful than the Order.

Hinjo implied that sending a couple special ops teams was the Elves' equivalent of "going to war".

Nope, not even close. Team Peregrine and so forth were a very efficient means of preparing the ground for a larger assault aided by a slave revolt, but there's not even the hint of a clue that it was intended to actually overthrow the gobbos all by its lonesome.

The only counter-evidence we have is that Tarquin fears the Elves intervening should the connection between the Empires of Blood, Sweat, and Tears (or whatever they're called this week) grow too obvious, and the impression that the Elves could do something about it if they wanted to could be based on Elven propaganda. I think the evidence points to the Elves being a paper tiger.

There's plenty of other evidence that the EK is more powerful than the Order. First, it would have been irrational for EK to throw the bulk of their military into Azure City. They sent in a mid-level team that was defeated only by a surprise attack by an artifact-equipped Evil High Priest - being defeated by such is no shame.

Second, the elves have, as you noted, access to Epic spellcasters. So long as they are supported with an adequate number of mooks, Epic spellcasters can take down the Order as we saw at AC.

Finally, the EK are sufficiently well defended that a humble baker can live in a lonely house with no evident defenses at all.

And beyond finally: the question is not whether the EK could actually defend the gates against Xykon, but whether they would be helpful in doing so. Even a single teleport-equipped wizard would be a huge asset.

[Kish]

Second, the elves have, as you noted, access to Epic spellcasters.

The elven kingdoms had (...insofar as Lirian can be said to have been had by anyone except herself, and assuming she was a citizen of the same kingdom that Team Peregrine came from...) one established epic character a few years ago. Wherever Dorukan comes from had (same note) one established epic character, one for Azure City (before Soon died), one for the part of the world where the Order is now (before Girard died), and wherever Xykon comes from has one (though I really wouldn't recommend they rely on his patriotism to draft him). For some reason, you're taking this as an indicating that the elves have (present tense) plural epic-level spellcasters which they (...their government?...) can just throw at Xykon whenever they decide he's worth the effort.

Finally, the EK are sufficiently well defended that a humble baker can live in a lonely house with no evident defenses at all.

Good point. An ordinary baker stations an artillery squad in his/her house. (Setting aside the fact that the elven kingdoms are sufficiently well defended that a humble baker and his/her family can be slowly killed by an ancient black dragon with no sign of said defenses manifesting.)

And beyond finally: the question is not whether the EK could actually defend the gates against Xykon, but whether they would be helpful in doing so.

The question is why you said, "indeed one wonders why the elves, if appraised of AC's fall, would not be taking action even now" when the elves did take action. Clearly. Unambiguously. Would you like to revise your statement to, "indeed one who is me wonders why the elves are not pulling out all the unused resources I'm deciding they have"?

[rewinn]

... you're taking this as an indicating that the elves have (present tense) plural epic-level spellcasters which they (...their government?...) can just throw at Xykon whenever they decide he's worth the effort....

No. I'm stating that we know they had at least one in the past and there is no evidence that they don't have at least one now. We just don't know. From that, some have assumed the EK are weaker than the Order, but on the evidence that's just silly.

An ordinary baker stations an artillery squad in his/her house.

Ha-ha. You're agreeing with me that Inky felt safe enough in ordinary life to have no effective defenses what-so-ever. Exactly.

(Setting aside the fact that the elven kingdoms are sufficiently well defended that a humble baker and his/her family can be slowly killed by an ancient black dragon with no sign of said defenses manifesting.)

If by "slowly" you mean "less than 10 minutes" well sure. Go back and look at how much time expired between ABD's attack and Darth V's reprisal.

The question is why you said, "indeed one wonders why the elves, if appraised of AC's fall, would not be taking action even now" when the elves did take action. Clearly. Unambiguously. Would you like to revise your statement to, "indeed one who is me wonders why the elves are not pulling out all the unused resources I'm deciding they have"?

OK, sure why not?

To quibble, the bit about ME DECIDING the EK have some resources greater than a single party of adventures ( that some have (incorrectly in my view) derided as "incompetent" ) would be more correctly labelled an ASSUMPTION. The only DECISIONS about what the EK have are made by the author but on the evidence presented, the Elven Kingdoms are kingdoms populated by a reasonable number of adventurers, at least some of whom would be an asset in defending the Gates against an Extinction-Level threat.

But, as noted above, much of heroic faction relies on the notion that heroes don't dial 9-1-1.

[Kish]

No. I'm stating that we know they had at least one in the past and there is no evidence that they don't have at least one now. We just don't know. From that, some have assumed the EK are weaker than the Order, but on the evidence that's just silly.

And the evidence you've presented is, "There used to be an epic elven druid in the world."

Ha-ha. You're agreeing with me that Inky felt safe enough in ordinary life to have no effective defenses what-so-ever. Exactly.

...You're dodging.

You offered Inkyrius' lack of some kind of "defenses" as evidence of the strength of the elven kingdom. I am saying that it was nothing of the sort, and I am wondering what kind of "defenses" you would expect a humble baker whose kingdom did not have a powerful standing army to have. As a side issue, yes, we agree, if you can call it that, that Inkyrius did not have defenses. Where we apparently disagree is in your apparent belief that more defenses than that are standard for a baker and Inkyrius' lack thereof is a positive statement about the offensive strength of his/her kingdom. (When Qaar asked whether Inkyrius could hold the dragon off, and Vaarsuvius replied, "My mate is an apprentice baker, you moron!" was s/he trying to imply "at least a week," then?)

If by "slowly" you mean "less than 10 minutes" well sure. Go back and look at how much time expired between ABD's attack and Darth V's reprisal.

So, how much longer would the ancient black dragon's destruction and torture session have to go on before you would no longer consider "there are no defenses at this baker's house" evidence of the strength of the elven kingdom?

To quibble, the bit about ME DECIDING the EK have some resources greater than a single party of adventures

A single party of level 16ish adventurers. Competent or not, they have enough power to...well, a group of adventurers has enough power to enslave a continent, as Tarquin is demonstrating. (This specific argument in the OotS world doesn't work if it turns out Tarquin and his goons are significantly higher level than the Order, of course. That just leaves us with how powerful adventurers of that level are in D&D, and Qarr's menton of how few wizards even make it past 10th level.)

( that some have (incorrectly in my view) derided as "incompetent" ) would be more correctly labelled an ASSUMPTION.

Exactly!

[rewinn]

And the evidence you've presented is, "There used to be an epic elven druid in the world."

Nope. Not even close. Read upthread for more evidence, and add to it:

1. The Epic Elven druid didn't even seem to be a higher-up in the Elven kingdom; she was a member of a wandering order of adventurers
2. It's a fricken' Elven Kingdom. Not a hamlet, village, small town, barony, earldom or dukedom, but a Kingdom in a world where even Azure City has spellcasters more powerful than the Order's (e.g. the High Priest of the 12 Gods was roughly RC's level, which exceeds Durkon's noticeably)
3. Wait a minute ....

... you win. You totally win. Because you have deployed the ULTIMATE ARGUMENT AGAINST WHICH THERE IS NO DEFENSE.

[Kish]

Nope. Not even close. Read upthread for more evidence, and add to it:

1. The Epic Elven druid didn't even seem to be a higher-up in the Elven kingdom; she was a member of a wandering order of adventurers

Yes. And of all the epic level characters we've seen, how many were non-adventurers, now?

2. It's a fricken' Elven Kingdom. Not a hamlet, village, small town, barony, earldom or dukedom, but a Kingdom in a world where even Azure City has spellcasters more powerful than the Order's (e.g. the High Priest of the 12 Gods was roughly RC's level, which exceeds Durkon's noticeably)

Yes, THE High Priest of the Twelve Gods--the Redcloak-equivalent of an entire pantheon--was...powerful enough to duel Redcloak and lose, despite residing in something Eugene Greenhilt described as "one of the oldest bastions of the forces of Good on the mortal plane." Which was named a "city," which you find less impressive than the word "kingdom," though it held multiple daimyos under a ruler called a Lord.

3. Wait a minute ....

... you win. You totally win. Because you have deployed the ULTIMATE ARGUMENT AGAINST WHICH THERE IS NO DEFENSE.

Guessing that link goes to a flame.

[rewinn]

Guessing that link goes to a flame.

I see. Well, do you want to have the full argument, or were you thinking of taking a course?

[Felixc-91]

Ochul knew about Phylacterys so its hard to say how uncommon it is

Ochul had been living with a lich and the goblin caring around his Phylactery for most of a year. Given that Ochul was clearly paying a lot of attention to his captors (see spell list) then even one mention of it in his presence could have tipped him off to its.... and then I remembered. Here, Soon mentioned in Ochuls presence (paralized does not mean deafened or in a coma) the importance of the phylactery and its location.
edit: I really need to acctually read the entire thread befor responding. Totaly ninja'd

But he could have learned from : "Hey! This one time Xykon was killed and he regrew in Redcloak's necklace!"

Or he could just have figured it out when Soon mentioned it.

[Felixc-91]

Yes, THE High Priest of the Twelve Gods--the Redcloak-equivalent of an entire pantheon--was...powerful enough to duel Redcloak and lose, despite residing in something Eugene Greenhilt described as "one of the oldest bastions of the forces of Good on the mortal plane." Which was named a "city," which you find less impressive than the word "kingdom," though it held multiple daimyos under a ruler called a Lord.

Your statement fails to defend your argument. If the size of an area can be linked to the power of their mightiest spell caster (not completely unreasonable, more people means more chances to get a badass) then the fact that the EK is larger would imply that any high priest(s) they have would be more powerful than the high priest we saw in Azure City. Keep in mind that Azure City is a city and surrounding lands that can be marched across in 4 to 5 days; where as the elven lands are approximately 1 half (or one third, depending on which map you go with) of a continent.
Also, you don't have to face people 1 on 1. In fact it’s generally not a good idea. Imagine what could happen if Redcloack is facing a spell caster and some mooks who were not caught in an ambush. Greater Dispel Magic will neutralize (some of) his harder hitting spells while people slashing at him with swords wear down his hit points and make casting generally difficult. So, there is plenty the EK could do even without high or epic level spell casters. Even if Red did have summoned monsters with him that’s not really a problem. Holy Word (the same thing Durkon was going to use) would remove all or most of them from the field, with ONE spell.
Similar tactics could work on Xykon, you would just need more mooks (with bludgeoning weapons) and more spell casters. X's victories have generally been when he either had the element of surprise, back up, and/or knew what he was getting into before the battle. Surprise him and fight with your brain and then he becomes much less scary. If the EK even has a small army, and a reasonable allotment of spell casters they can do just that.

[Gusion]

Your statement fails to defend your argument. If the size of an area can be linked to the power of their mightiest spell caster (not completely unreasonable, more people means more chances to get a badass) then the fact that the EK is larger would imply that any high priest(s) they have would be more powerful than the high priest we saw in Azure City.

I think that's a fair argument to make. The rules are specific that the bigger the population the more magical items are present.

The only thing we don't know is how populated the Elven Kingdom is. Just because the area is bigger doesn't mean the population is bigger. In D&D elves do have cities, although they are generally described as less dense than say, Waterdeep.

I would say that the elves likely do have some serious levels, especially in the epic wizard category. Aarindarius is certainly implied to be epic... both as an honorary Iron Mage and the implication of having the ability to destroy "Mother Dragon" without even looking up from his book. That says epic to me.

[FujinAkari]

implication of having the ability to destroy "Mother Dragon" without even looking up from his book. That says epic to me.

Yeah, but remember all we really know is that the Level 3 Vaarsuvius saw him as all powerful... so he is at least level 7.

[Gusion]

Yeah, but remember all we really know is that the Level 3 Vaarsuvius saw him as all powerful... so he is at least level 7.

I suppose it is technically possible that the IFCC is lying in comic #634. Is that what you're suggesting?

[ti'esar]

I suppose it is technically possible that the IFCC is lying in comic #634. Is that what you're suggesting?

It's certainly what I would have suggested. We really should not take their word for anything, and we know V has some degree of "issues" towards A.

[Gusion]

It's certainly what I would have suggested. We really should not take their word for anything, and we know V has some degree of "issues" towards A.

I am only suggesting that Aarindarius is most likely epic level. Not implying anything else. V doesn't disagree with the IFCC's suggestion, and at least one of them is almost certainly lawful... lowering the probability of them outright lying.

After all, they are telling V this as a reason for why he doesn't need to take their deal. What would be their motivation in saying that Aarindarius is more powerful than he really is?