OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread

[Forikroder]

FYI... before the IFCC came into the picture, a V which was just as tired and likely even more panicked (because 1) there was no Time Stop effect then and 2) unlike later, he didn't have any way to save his children at the moment)...

...analysed, and rejected as "non-workable", three suggestions from the imp.

(Namely,
1) imp goes to Azure City fleet and warns them
2) imp goes to Aarindarius and warns him
3) imp goes to Inkyrius and warns him/her)

And V gave reasons why it wouldn't work. In spite of being just as tired and even more panicked then as he'd later be with the fiends.

So, IMO, it's pretty clear that V's state of tiredness and panickedness at the moment he was presented the fiends' alternate plan couldn't have been great enough for V to not retain his previously-demonstrated-several-times-while-tired-and-panicked ability to dismiss an obviously totally flawed plan, i.e. one for which the main goal, defeating the ABD, has no hope of success.

all the evidence that people use to say the fiends lied, is also all the information V had absolutely no access to

with jsut the information he had and what the fiends said he has no reason to think the plan wouldnt work

[ti'esar]

This is the kind of circular, irrelevant, somewhat spiteful argument that happens when OOTS fans go for two weeks without a fix -_-.

Don't worry chaps. Everything will be ok.

I'm glad I'm not the only one aware of this phenomenon.

[Bulldog Psion]

I'm glad I'm not the only one aware of this phenomenon.

I am also aware of it, but refrained from mentioning it lest it bring the Wrath of Mod upon me.

[EmperorSarda]

The argument that because the elves only sent a few small teams in means they are weak is perhaps the dumbest argument I have ever read. The USA makes extensive use of our special forces like the Navy Seals who took out a certain terrorist leader. Are we weak because we did not role a full army in to Pakistan?

Two different scenarios. Knocking off one man in a one night op mission is different than sending in op teams on a long term basis to help reconquer an entire country.

Honestly, if the elves were that weak no reason for Tarquin to be worried about fusing his 3 countires together and taking control of the whole continent.

Tarquin has no idea of their strength. Obviously they are strong, they just most likely do not have a strong military. And fusing the three countries together now would provoke the other Western nations he has not conquered. It's not just the elves he fears.

So, IMO, it's pretty clear that V's state of tiredness and panickedness at the moment he was presented the fiends' alternate plan couldn't have been great enough for V to not retain his previously-demonstrated-several-times-while-tired-and-panicked ability to dismiss an obviously totally flawed plan, i.e. one for which the main goal, defeating the ABD, has no hope of success.

Then why do the fiends interrupt V when he is about to accept the deal? Why bring up the secondary horrendous plan at all if not to turn V's acception of the deal from heroics to needing to succeed?

[RafterManFMJ]

Is the OOTS now a monthly?

[oppyu]

Is the OOTS now a monthly?

The five-word mantra of the GiTP forum; there is no update schedule. And considering the strict rules about infractions against the admin, it's safer to vent any frustration caused by OOTS-deprivation by engaging in a pedantic, spiteful debate about OOTS plot minutia (like the military capability of the elven kingdoms).

[Emperordaniel]

Two different scenarios. Knocking off one man in a one night op mission is different than sending in op teams on a long term basis to help reconquer an entire country.

The impression I got from the elven strike teams is that they were to help the Resistance "prepare the ground" for a reconquest by the Elven or Azurite Remnant armies (or perhaps both militaries combined).

Tarquin has no idea of their strength. Obviously they are strong, they just most likely do not have a strong military. And fusing the three countries together now would provoke the other Western nations he has not conquered. It's not just the elves he fears.

Except that Elan only asked if Tarquin would merge the three Empires after every single country on the continent (barring the Elves) had been conquered. Also, I find it strange that General Tarquin of all people - you know, the guy who's planning to take over two-thirds of the continent? - would have no idea as to the strength of the Elven Kingdoms, which are presumably the only force in the area that could possibly put an end to his plan within a short time frame. My opinion is that he's keeping tabs on the elves as well, and knows their strength as a result; otherwise, why wouldn't his plan involve taking over their land as well? As others in this thread have pointed out, the Elven Kingdoms control the best land on the entire continent, which would be a pretty good reason for conquest.

[EmperorSarda]

The impression I got from the elven strike teams is that they were to help the Resistance "prepare the ground" for a reconquest by the Elven or Azurite Remnant armies (or perhaps both militaries combined).

That is possible, given that the resistance was maybe only about 600 people strong more or less. They would need lots of outside help, so that is a good possibility.

Except that Elan only asked if Tarquin would merge the three Empires after every single country on the continent (barring the Elves) had been conquered. Also, I find it strange that General Tarquin of all people - you know, the guy who's planning to take over two-thirds of the continent? - would have no idea as to the strength of the Elven Kingdoms, which are presumably the only force in the area that could possibly put an end to his plan within a short time frame. My opinion is that he's keeping tabs on the elves as well, and knows their strength as a result; otherwise, why wouldn't his plan involve taking over their land as well? As others in this thread have pointed out, the Elven Kingdoms control the best land on the entire continent, which would be a pretty good reason for conquest.

Except in Tarquin's plan he says he plans to rule over the desert. He says nothing of the forests. Three separate kingdoms over the desert until the day they die.
And you're right, Tarquin must have some idea of the Elves' strength because he thinking combining the three empires would invite reprisals from the Elves (or someone else). If he thought he would have the advantage over them, he wouldn't worry about them so much. It doesn't sound like he plans on ever attacking them though.

[Killer Angel]

Is the OOTS now a monthly?

The five-word mantra of the GiTP forum; there is no update schedule.

Indeed.
One of the reasons is that it's a topic that do not contribute anything useful.
I'll do a copy/pasta from the forum rules for your convenience: "Threads speculating on when a comic will be posted or why it may be late will be locked".

[lio45]

Then why do the fiends interrupt V when he is about to accept the deal? Why bring up the secondary horrendous plan at all if not to turn V's acception of the deal from heroics to needing to succeed?

We agree on that... My point is that the alternate plan presented to V needs to have, at first sight, chances to actually work. Otherwise, 1) it's pointless for the IFCC to bring it up and 2) it doesn't fit with V's reaction in the comic (he thinks about it, then touches the blue orb).

Essentially, the disagreement between you and me was simply this:

It doesn't matter if the plan is workable, it is in the temptation.

I say the plan has to be workable to constitute a temptation. Otherwise, it will be dismissed and so won't be a temptation. The alternate plan "let's have Inky shove a banana nut muffin in the ABD's secret belly gap" wasn't a temptation. The fiends' alternate plan was one.

[lio45]

Indeed.
One of the reasons is that it's a topic that do not contribute anything useful.
I'll do a copy/pasta from the forum rules for your convenience: "Threads speculating on when a comic will be posted or why it may be late will be locked".

A "copy/pasta", is that how you do it in Italy? He he he. ;)

[bengator]

Indeed.
One of the reasons is that it's a topic that do not contribute anything useful.
I'll do a copy/pasta from the forum rules for your convenience: "Threads speculating on when a comic will be posted or why it may be late will be locked".

I would only add that it appears that the Giant has quite a bit of kickstarter work to do, so a slower update schedule while he gets this done is only to be expected. While I am jonesing for some new oots, I was thrilled with my package, so I will just reread my books to prepare to engage about minutia from start of darkness regarding whether xykon casts meteor swarm right or left handed and how that will affect his upcoming battle with Tarquin, which may or may not ever actually occur.

[Kalrany]

We agree on that... My point is that the alternate plan presented to V needs to have, at first sight, chances to actually work. Otherwise, 1) it's pointless for the IFCC to bring it up and 2) it doesn't fit with V's reaction in the comic (he thinks about it, then touches the blue orb).

Essentially, the disagreement between you and me was simply this:

I say the plan has to be workable to constitute a temptation. Otherwise, it will be dismissed and so won't be a temptation. The alternate plan "let's have Inky shove a banana nut muffin in the ABD's secret belly gap" wasn't a temptation. The fiends' alternate plan was one.

Lio45, you have some very good points, and I think I can see where you are coming from. It seems that the issue is who determines the feasibility of the alternative. I have leaned towards EmperorSarda's interpretation since I read the comic, and still feel that there is a possibility for this to be another viable interpretation. Partially summed up with the post from:

Seeing how V just finished fighting the dragon where it utilized an antimagic shell against him... tired or not, he wouldn't even consider using Aarindarius if he couldn't at least access 9th level spells.

It is worth noting that even if Aarindarius was level ~7 back when V was level 3... since V is at least level 15, I don't think it is a stretch to assume that A is 17+. That even gives a significant accelerated leveling increase to V since he is adventuring, while all impression is that A is not.

Disjunction only has a % chance of cracking an antimagic shell at that, so for his sake he had better be more than level 17.

Note that that in paragraph 2 of this, we have V assuming A has leveled appropriately for an adventurer. But A is not one that we are aware of. In fact, V points out in origins and is tangentially shown in her temptation musings that A is a tower-wizard, studying to gain his levels instead. (If he was the adventuring type, then why would he be easy to find for the imp in the first place?)

Like Gusion seems to suggest, the idea that I have from my reading of the strips is that V see A as "powerful". Yes, V likely knows that disjunction is needed for the force cage, but knowing that A has it at his disposal is not a given. For one thing, the mental image we have of A fighting the ABD shows him tossing a spell and the ABD dying. There is no indication as to what was actually happening in that scene, just that we saw A winning with ease.

For another, it can be noted that we see both V and D working on spells that are higher level, possibly even beyond their casting range at the time.

-Maybe that V may have seen A researching disjunction or some other spell that V cannot (or could not at the time) do, when V was a lowly student.

-Maybe V knows A can get help from the other Iron Mages?

-Maybe V saw another scene with another creature (for the sake of example, let’s call it a troll) that was dispatched with the same ease?

-Maybe V was just hoping that it could happen that way, but didn't really buy into it fully enough to let go of the situation and place faith in anyone else?

-Maybe V decided A would not invest enough to really win?

-Maybe those arguing that A is 15(17?)+ are completely correct?

The point is, we know next to nothing about A beyond what is shown here and origins, which does not tell us enough to make solid conclusion. What we do know is, that at the time of the Agreement, V at least entertained the belief that A could do it and still chose the pact. Maybe it was a long shot idea, maybe it wasn't. We have no good evidence one way or another to claim that A could have done it without V actually saying, or the Author showing, that A has the spells to take care of the dragon...

So, after this long-winded explanation, I think I can sum up my position as this: We have little direct and clear evidence that A could have taken on the ABD and won (nor do we have clear and direct evidence that he would have lost), but V believes it was a viable option, thus making it a Foustian Agreement.

I think that the frame of reference is the critical factor -- whether it was true or not does not play into the drama. Likewise, the banana nut muffin example does not play in because it was not believed to be feasible from the outset. If, for some reason, V believed it was possible, then it would have been a second option that was ignored in the Agreement. To be honest, I kind of got the impression that the IFCC was manipulating that conversation: keeping an already questionably sane V off balance, carefully crafting the idea that 'of course there is another perfectly reasonable option,' without the time needed to really consider both options all the way. But that was not the issue. The issue is V believed A could do it and chose not to attempt to contact him, instead taking the pact.

**Tosses two coppers on the table and walks away whistling a jaunty tune…**

[Dausuul]

Rule number one: If you're in the Pit of Despair, don't even think about trying to escape.

[Capt Spanner]

Maybe Tarquin would attack the elves if they gave him a chance by, say, sending the bulk of their military might over to recapture an allied city on another continent?

[EmperorSarda]

I say the plan has to be workable to constitute a temptation. Otherwise, it will be dismissed and so won't be a temptation. The alternate plan "let's have Inky shove a banana nut muffin in the ABD's secret belly gap" wasn't a temptation. The fiends' alternate plan was one.

What I am trying to say is that the plan has to be workable enough in V's mind for it to be a temptation. Remember, V. was too tired to even wonder how the fiends knew about Durkon or a scroll.

Lol, the alternate muffin plan of success was only sarcasm on V's part and Qarr failing at recognizing the sarcasm.

I think that the frame of reference is the critical factor -- whether it was true or not does not play into the drama. Likewise, the banana nut muffin example does not play in because it was not believed to be feasible from the outset. If, for some reason, V believed it was possible, then it would have been a second option that was ignored in the Agreement. To be honest, I kind of got the impression that the IFCC was manipulating that conversation: keeping an already questionably sane V off balance, carefully crafting the idea that 'of course there is another perfectly reasonable option,' without the time needed to really consider both options all the way. But that was not the issue. The issue is V believed A could do it and chose not to attempt to contact him, instead taking the pact.

To this I completely agree.

Maybe Tarquin would attack the elves if they gave him a chance by, say, sending the bulk of their military might over to recapture an allied city on another continent?

Too bad the Elves will do no such thing now that the resistance is crushed. Also, I think the speed or chances that Tarquin will ever attack the elves depends on how many mountain passes he has mapped out.

And until the whole desert is conquered, any attack on the elves won't be considered.

[Gusion]

Obviously they are strong, they just most likely do not have a strong military.

Can you please explain what you mean by this?

It seems like wild conjecture to me - not "most likely."

[Fitzclowningham]

Can you please explain what you mean by this?

It seems like wild conjecture to me - not "most likely."

Tarquin has his whole society arranged around the army. There could be a lot of powerful individual elves, only not arrayed into platoons and battalions. The idea does seem in keeping with how elves are generally portrayed in Oots, as individualists. The strongly centralized polity a large and powerful army would imply seems out of their character. I'm not saying this is definite, but it's not much of a leap.

[Forikroder]

Maybe Tarquin would attack the elves if they gave him a chance by, say, sending the bulk of their military might over to recapture an allied city on another continent?

and piss of the elves allies? no way

Tarquin is smart, hes getting everything he needs to be 100% safe and nothing more hes not overeaching hes already aiming for enough to let him live like a god and getting in an extremely safe way with an end goal that is sustainable and safe, he has no reason to try to expand outside the desert

[Killer Angel]

A "copy/pasta", is that how you do it in Italy? He he he. ;)

It's sort of a joke we do on almost a regular basis (me and my friends), and this time it slipped through my fingers...

[EmperorSarda]

Can you please explain what you mean by this?

It seems like wild conjecture to me - not "most likely."

Take the D&D Elf first, they have poor constitution and their favored class is wizard. They have also had to abandon certain military outposts in recent years.

Also we know that the Elven Kingdom has at least one wizard who can cast greater teleport. With a couple castings every day they could send in a few soldiers every day until they had an army within the walls of the city. They didn't. Instead they sent in a couple special ops groups to perform hit and run tactics against the hobgoblins.

Now we don't know their strategy, maybe they were waiting for Xykon to actually leave or maybe they had a long term strategy in place. But given that the resistance consisted of 600 or so people (200 * 3), the Elves would not have been able to force out the hobgoblins any time soon.

It just seems to me that since they didn't teleport in any soldiers and special ops groups, whatever their strategy was probably relied on those special ops rather than brute force of soldiers.

[Gusion]

The strongly centralized polity a large and powerful army would imply seems out of their character. I'm not saying this is definite, but it's not much of a leap.

Ah, so I would say that a "strong military" != "a large and powerful army."

Take the destruction of the Resistance as an example. It wasn't done by 10,000 soldiers. It was done by one spy and one BAMF cleric.

Take the D&D Elf first, they have poor constitution and their favored class is wizard. They have also had to abandon certain military outposts in recent years.

1. See above.
2. A vacation spot where parents take their kids camping is now a "military outpost" in your mind? Sounds like a stretch, at best.
3. Regardless, the U.S. has closed overseas bases due to budget cuts. Does that automatically reflect on a weak military? Or perhaps instead it is just a political decision?

Also we know that the Elven Kingdom has at least one wizard who can cast greater teleport. With a couple castings every day they could send in a few soldiers every day until they had an army within the walls of the city. They didn't. Instead they sent in a couple special ops groups to perform hit and run tactics against the hobgoblins.

It just seems to me that since they didn't teleport in any soldiers and special ops groups, whatever their strategy was probably relied on those special ops rather than brute force of soldiers.

Political will comes to mind. Perhaps the Elven High Council (or whatever) were split on the idea of getting involved at all. So they took the cautious approach (consistent with their D&D persona) and decided to send in some special ops forces to gather intelligence, and build the Resistance until Hinjo can reorganize an attempt to get back their city. The elves could believe that saving the city is fundamentally Hinjo's job and they weren't going to do it for him.

Of course this plan failed miserably because RC is a BAMF. But his entire Plan rests on being underestimated - by the Resistance, by Tsukiko, and by Xykon. I think it is a mistake to judge the entire elvish military because their plan didn't work. There are plenty of IRL examples of where special operations failed (Iran and Somalia both come to mind immediately) BUT, those facts do not represent how strong the military was as a whole.

As for evidence of the elves having a strong military... well, they've kept their borders for 500 years and even Tarquin is concerned about them. If they were weak, they would have most certainly would have less control over pristine land than they do.

[Jay R]

This is the kind of circular, irrelevant, somewhat spiteful argument that happens when OOTS fans go for two weeks without a fix -_-.

Don't worry chaps. Everything will be ok.

Meanwhile, my Kickstarter package just arrived, with Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tales, and I have several dozen new pages of OOTS to read.

[raymundo]

Meanwhile, my Kickstarter package just arrived, with Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tales, and I have several dozen new pages of OOTS to read.

That was just unnecessarily cruel, especially if you couldn't participate on the Kickstarter drive and have nothing OOTS-related to look forward to.

[rewinn]

...The elves could believe that saving the city is fundamentally Hinjo's job and they weren't going to do it for him.
Of course this plan failed miserably because RC is a BAMF. But his entire Plan rests on being underestimated - by the Resistance, by Tsukiko, and by Xykon. I think it is a mistake to judge the entire elvish military because their plan didn't work. There are plenty of IRL examples of where special operations failed (Iran and Somalia both come to mind immediately) BUT, those facts do not represent how strong the military was as a whole.

May I also point out that the plan almost worked. It was ONE TELEPORT away from success - once the elves held Xykon's phylactery, he was going to be a lot easier to manage. Holding the phylactery, the elves could probably persuade him to kill all the hobgolbins and then fly away from Azure City, something Xykon would enjoy doing very much anyway.

[Smolder]

That was just unnecessarily cruel, especially if you couldn't participate on the Kickstarter drive and have nothing OOTS-related to look forward to.

Whose fault is it that you "couldn't" participate in the Kickstarter drive?

Besides, between Ookoodook for books and Cafepress for t-shirts and merch, there's plenty of OOTS goodness that could show up in your mailbox sometime soon.

[raymundo]

Whose fault is it that you "couldn't" participate in the Kickstarter drive?

Besides, between Ookoodook for books and Cafepress for t-shirts and merch, there's plenty of OOTS goodness that could show up in your mailbox sometime soon.

No credit card and kickstarter does not support paypal, so..

And the merch stuff is kinda hard to get from europe. At least for a manageable mailing fee that is.. I so very much would like to get my paws on some printed OOTS-goodness!

[factotum]

once the elves held Xykon's phylactery, he was going to be a lot easier to manage. Holding the phylactery, the elves could probably persuade him to kill all the hobgolbins and then fly away from Azure City, something Xykon would enjoy doing very much anyway.

You might want to read Start of Darkness at some point:

Spoiler

Show

At one point Redcloak threatens to destroy Xykon's phylactery to try and get him to do what he wants him to do. Xykon simply points out that destroying the phylactery won't affect him because he's not "in there" at the moment, and it certainly won't stop him killing Redcloak if he tries to damage it!

Basically, Xykon wouldn't care if the elves possessed his phylactery--he certainly wouldn't be stupid enough to kill his entire army at their request. He'd probably take a very long time killing Team Peregrine, though!

[Chessgeek]

No credit card and kickstarter does not support paypal, so..

And the merch stuff is kinda hard to get from europe. At least for a manageable mailing fee that is.. I so very much would like to get my paws on some printed OOTS-goodness!

Meh, you have savings don't you? Expense is hardly a valid excuse. After all, this is The OOTS we're talking about here!

[Peelee]

Meh, you have savings don't you? Expense is hardly a valid excuse. After all, this is The OOTS we're talking about here!

No credit card/credit cards being the only valid method of payment is a valid excuse, though.