Dota 2: If you Prefer a Learning Cliff

[Meta]

I noticed the original Dota 2 thread is MIA so here's a new one! Dota 2 is classified as an ARTS and is often touted as one of the most difficult games to learn. Despite this huge ceiling for mastery, over the years it has been tightly balanced so that updates to heroes are often minor tweaks and the competitive scene is very active. Next month, Valve hosts its International II, the successor to a rather unprecedented tournament that you can read about or watched here:
http://www.dota2.com/tournaments/int...nal2011/teams/

Valve's regularly updated blog and encyclopedia on the game's ongoing development:
http://blog.dota2.com/

The game is currently unfinished but can be purchased and played via Steam, which you can access here:
http://store.steampowered.com/

Any specific questions you'd like to ask feel free to direct to me here or iNuzzle on steam.


I think that covers the basics. Who's still active on the forums? I've seen a few people on from time to time, but getting some private games going seems like a good time! Anyone interested in helping with my little project (below) is welcome to contribute however they'd like too.

I've started to record a series of instructional videos to help my friends take their game to the next level. I only have one at the moment, but I hope to add to that tally and if you could watch it and follow with any critiques, criticisms, or compliments, that would be great! The one thing I do know to change is the sound quality (purchasing headphones so no computer fan noise) and video quality (still tinkering with xsplit) but pretty much anything is fair game! My channel can be found here:
http://www.twitch.tv/inuzzle

[Tono]

Just a little side note, if you call it a MOBA in game or on some DotA specific forums, you will get hate. A lot of people associate that term with LoL, and prefer ARTS or AoS style. Fair warning.

I watched (most) of your NS video, skipping the technical stuff and the last five minutes, and all I can say is might want to focus on your alternative items there. You got the BKB first, which is excellent, but you might want to have mentioned you had other options. Old school comp bala with the early aghs in case you're havening trouble holding runes and need the stats(Did this get nerf'd? Its been a while) or the every fun armlet>bashers to push towers and make sure that they can't run away, and if you build it into an abyssal it becomes a counter to others making a BKB as the active and passive both run through it. Just a little note saying 'I am getting this because they have x amount of nukers, or this many stuns, but in another situation I could get...' would vastly improve the stream and make it more useful to beginners.

[Bayar]

Just a little side note, if you call it a MOBA in game or on some DotA specific forums, you will get hate. A lot of people associate that term with LoL, and prefer ARTS or AoS style. Fair warning.

Agreed. You should change it in the OP to ARTS. MOBA is a far too broad term anyway.

[Meta]

Np, it's changed now.

Thanks for taking time to watch the vid and submit some feedback, Tono! I'll be sure to talk about the merits of various builds in my next recording. "What should I build?" is definitely one of the most common questions you'll hear and having a better answer than "It depends" would be good.

[Grif]

DOTA doesn't have a learning cliff. It's totally newb friendly.

(I kid, but really now, learning cliff isn't something that should be applied to DOTA. This moniker is best applied to games like Dwarf Fortress or Hearts of Iron III.)

[Meta]

Dwarf Fortress may be challenging, but to my understanding it's also usually single player and not winnable in nature, so I think that puts the games in some very different categories. One of the most difficult things in Dota is team management I reckon.

I've never played Iron, but I read that it's actually more available and user friendly than some of the previous games and I didn't see anything that made it look much more in depth than say Civ 5. Not to derail my own thread, but what's extremely difficult about it?

In other news, The International II is just over a month away and if you're interested in Dota in any capacity I think you'll appreciate any hours you can devote to watching a few of the games, so be sure to check it out!

[Emmerask]

I learned and became good at Hoi a lot faster then dota1, now dota2 was pretty easy to learn because it is 1:1 dota1 pretty much (except very minor changes).

Overall I think dota has an extreme learning phase, from learning which heroes to pick to the items you should go for to the whole last hitting/denying positioning etcetcetc its a very hard game to even become mediocre at overall.

[TentacleGirl]

How would one go about playing? I did the survey a while ago but no word from the Valvelords ;_;

[Meta]

How would one go about playing? I did the survey a while ago but no word from the Valvelords ;_;

An invite can be purchased from the steam store, but it is bundled with some cosmetic goodies that you may or may not want, some quite rare. It's $29.99 USD. The invite itself is going for around $5-7 worth of goods on the trading market I believe.

Cosmetic items drop semi-randomly as you play games, so most people try and get the standalone invite. I only have one extra at the moment, and it's going to a friend's brother, but I might be able to trade for some others for the thread's purposes.

I also want to get to some more vids recorded as soon as schedule allows!

[9mm]

How would one go about playing? I did the survey a while ago but no word from the Valvelords ;_;

Just asking around is also a good idea, I think I still have a spare invite lying around from when I won my access...

[Legoshrimp]

What does ARTS mean? Also a game that is fairly close in gameplay is using this term we can't use that term!!!. also AoS all the way only term that should be used.


Edit: Ah Action real time strategy game. Seems about as vague or even vaguer then moba. Also funny thing my problem was I didn't get it when I googled for it. But then I tried googling moba and was able to find it.

[Cyborg Mage]

As far as DotA-style games go, it's a very steep learning curve with tonnes of boiling hot acid flowing down it. The mechanics are difficult to pick up, although possible to do so without Wiki assistance, but the community and gameplay... yeah, MOBAs aren't the most relaxing games to play. I mostly play LoL for MOBA gaming, but I figure I may as well give DotA 2 a shot, given how I got the beta invite a few days ago.

If anyone here comes from a LoL background, what champs would you recommend for a LoL player? I mainly play characters like Morgana, Veigar and Caitlyn, with a little bit of Singed, Alistar, Lux or Ashe thrown in every so often. I've already had Sniper pointed out to me, but still.

[Grif]

How would one go about playing? I did the survey a while ago but no word from the Valvelords ;_;

Play with the bots first. They will help you gain an understanding on the basic flow of the game. (Reminds me of how I started out by playing DotA AI v6.xx) Even then, expect to lose a few times since you will be a drag on the team while you're learning the basic mechanics.

I should caution you not to get too comfortable on how easy it is to beat the AI once you know how to game their limited intelligence. You will need to relearn your skills for an actual human game.

[Douglas]

If anyone here comes from a LoL background, what champs would you recommend for a LoL player? I mainly play characters like Morgana, Veigar and Caitlyn, with a little bit of Singed, Alistar, Lux or Ashe thrown in every so often. I've already had Sniper pointed out to me, but still.

One of the big differences is that DotA has no equivalent of LoL's Ability Power stat, and thus no items or abilities that increase it. This means that most mages have their damage output fade to insignificance towards the late game because they don't scale. If you want to play a mage type character, either be extremely aggressive early game when your damage is relatively high or select one with high non-damage utility or abilities with special built-in scaling (there are a few).

Another major difference is that a well farmed carry can truly CARRY an entire team in DotA. It is not unheard of for a carry to 1v5 the entire enemy team in the late game and win. This is generally done with agility-based heroes with a combination of just enough durability to not instantly die, ridiculous damage output, and lots of lifesteal. Primary agility is important for this because it means agility increases damage, attack speed, and armor all at the same time.

[Cyborg Mage]

Actually, forget this. At least I can play LoL without making it look like I'm playing through some kind of TV pixellation filter.

[Emmerask]

Another major difference is that a well farmed carry can truly CARRY an entire team in DotA. It is not unheard of for a carry to 1v5 the entire enemy team in the late game and win. This is generally done with agility-based heroes with a combination of just enough durability to not instantly die, ridiculous damage output, and lots of lifesteal. Primary agility is important for this because it means agility increases damage, attack speed, and armor all at the same time.

Well only if he truly outfarmed the enemies by a ton, in most cases the carry still needs some teammates for cc and as distraction, else he will just get perma disabled/kited until death (this assumes smart picks/items by the enemy of course) ^^

Actually, forget this. At least I can play LoL without making it look like I'm playing through some kind of TV pixellation filter.

pixellation filter? what are you talking about?

Oh and sniper really is not a good hero choice, he is one of the (maybe even the) worst carry(s).
The problem with him is that he is extremely squishy without any escape mechanism, so while somewhat strong (there are a ton better though) hero when farmed, in games against enemies who know what they are doing you will never get to the farmed state and die all game long ^^

[Trixie]

Agreed. You should change it in the OP to ARTS. MOBA is a far too broad term anyway.

Obligatory link

Speaking of DotA 2, I have gotten access to it recently, but sort of afraid to play it due to its reputation...

[Emmerask]

Well you can learn with bot games so that you don´t have to face the (immature) wrath of the community.
Either go for 5 players vs bots with the search bot game function (where the players mostly are not such *******s)
Or play with 4 bots vs 5.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Hm... interesting.

But first, tell me what DotA stands for. I've only seen the acronym.

[Douglas]

DotA = Defense of the Ancients

The "ancients" referred to are the central structures in each team's base, the destruction and defense of which is the ultimate game objective.

[Meta]

Dota 2's player community seems a bit better than Dota 1's, though I admit I rarely solo queue these days and our games are often in the high skill queue, depending on how many learners we have.

[Legoshrimp]

Dota 2's player community seems a bit better than Dota 1's, though I admit I rarely solo queue these days and our games are often in the high skill queue, depending on how many learners we have.

Well I think it might be literally(no probably not) impossible to be worse then the dota community so... That doesn't make it good. Just not one of the worst, if not the worst communities, and eventually it will probably be the worst when the people playing dota switch to it.

[Bayar]

Well I think it might be literally(no probably not) impossible to be worse then the dota community so... That doesn't make it good. Just not one of the worst, if not the worst communities, and eventually it will probably be the worst when the people playing dota switch to it.

Not to mention the HoN or LoL players that will probably come after it gets released.