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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Does anyone NOT hate Kender?

    I've been reading through the "Fantasy Races you hate" thread and it got me curious. Apparently a large amount of the rpg player base, myself included, despise Kender with a passion and think the only good Kender is a roasted Kender. Are there any folks out there who either tolerate or outright like/enjoy Kender? If so, why?
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    Default Re: Does anyone NOT hate Kender?

    Everything about Dragonlance is terrible and should be blasted into the sun at high velocity.
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    Default Re: Does anyone NOT hate Kender?

    One of my college friends had one person he'd allow to be a kender. Because this friend could manage to hit the right balance between chipper/annoying/friendly. It's really tough to avoid taking things too far with a kender.
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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Does anyone NOT hate Kender?

    I don't hate them, but I suspect I would if I ever played in a game where they were allowed.
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    Default Re: Does anyone NOT hate Kender?

    It's been ages since I read the novels, but I think even in them kender didn't steal that often. I could be super wrong since I haven't read the books in forever.

    I also think some of the kender-hate is from the very badly done Mary-Sueness that everyone who is good MUST LURVE KENDER. Only evil people hate the giggling self-righteous kleptomanic actively working against you, you despicable puppy kicking blackguard!

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    Default Re: Does anyone NOT hate Kender?

    Not as written, but reading that thread gave me a great idea of how to make them more palatable:

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    Kender are actually ruled by a Lady of Pain-esque dark god that, for reasons unknown, forces her Kender to act like hyper-annoying kleptomaniacs. The kender are all terrified of her because she sends her demonic minions after anyone who she catches breaking character.

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    Default Re: Does anyone NOT hate Kender?

    ...I love that idea. May I have permission to possibly use it for a future character?

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    Default Re: Does anyone NOT hate Kender?

    I.. I love Dragonlance. There was a time I was completely obsessed with it; now it's just a strong love, since I don't have as much time to read as I used to. I've always particularly loved the kender, simply because there are some dark themes in the novels (the Weis and Hickman ones, not some of the truly terrible fan-author stuff you can find), and Weis and Hickman managed to make kender work within it. In my own opinion, anyway.
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    Craft (Cheese)'s Avatar

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    Default Re: Does anyone NOT hate Kender?

    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    ...I love that idea. May I have permission to possibly use it for a future character?
    Why of course! I'd be honored, even.

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    Default Re: Does anyone NOT hate Kender?

    I like Kender. They're te little fearless bastards that can get things done Also, the only ones who are rarely pessimesstic. Sure, they'll annoy the hell outa ya, but the BBG woun't know how the hell do deal with one being so friendly. And borrowing the intresting things
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    Default Re: Does anyone NOT hate Kender?

    Here's a question, (And hopefully won't annoy the OP) how does one play a kender right, without annoying the DM or players, and true to the intent of the race?

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    Default Re: Does anyone NOT hate Kender?

    I always found Kender endearing, in the 'official' novels anyway. Even when things are at their darkest, they manage a brave face and plunge ahead.

    Though, the books where they lost their immunity to fear were interesting too.
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    Default Re: Does anyone NOT hate Kender?

    I don't hate them, in fact, they are my favorite "little people" race; they have traits that are both interesting and unique. I think the major stigma comes from bad roleplaying more than anything; Kenders are kleptomaniacs, but they shouldn't steal everything, and mostly just take random items. They will not take everything that isn't bolted down because that would be too obvious, and they don't have the pocket space for it. Their fearlessness is also an interesting trait, providing good roleplaying opportunities for the player and the DM.

    In any case, Kenders work well for less serious campaigns, although, with mature enough players, I have seen them used in serious settings just fine (they make great investigators for intrigue games, as they tend to pick up random items that can end up being useful and because being immune to mind wrecking horrors is always useful when dealing with the occult).
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    Default Re: Does anyone NOT hate Kender?

    I'm okay with kender until someone tries to play one. They should stay as story characters though, since no one I've known could ever play one without making everyone want to lynch them (the player, not the character).
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    Default Re: Does anyone NOT hate Kender?

    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Brau View Post
    I've been reading through the "Fantasy Races you hate" thread and it got me curious. Apparently a large amount of the rpg player base, myself included, despise Kender with a passion and think the only good Kender is a roasted Kender. Are there any folks out there who either tolerate or outright like/enjoy Kender? If so, why?
    I really like Kender and enjoy playing them. Mostly because they are a lot of fun in general. You basically make a character whose goal is to have fun and is more or less irrational. And every NPC knows it just by knowing what race you are. It's the ultimate choice to play CN really.

    It can be really annoying for your teamates if it's done poorly though. You can't go around stealing all their stuff and getting away with it. Some good basic rules are:

    1. Don't steal things at inappropriate times. Stealing the fighter's main weapon and hiding it just before the boss battle is never a good play. Basically steal things when the party is in downtime and just roleplaying with each other.

    2. When stealing from party members don't be subtle about it. After all in the Kender's mind you've done nothing wrong. So openly play around with the magic item or go up to the wizard and ask what a word means in his spellbook.

    2.b. 1 and 2 can basically be summed up in this: A Kender's thefts are roleplaying. Don't try and get any tangible benefits for them and make sure they are fun for everyone. Else don't do it.

    3. Be prepared to be disliked by every single NPC you meet. At the same time don't expect to be treated seriously. This means that you are going to be left out of some roleplaying encounters because the king isn't going to meet with a Kender.

    4. Don't be annoying for annoying sakes. That only happens when a Kender is bored. And if you are on an adventure you shouldn't be bored often.

    So why do I like Kender? Because if they are played well they are fun to be around and lead to interesting roleplaying. However like being CN playing as a Kender does not give you the right to do whatever you want. Always keep in mind that you have to be reasonable.


    Honest Tiefling is right. In the books the Kender don't steal that much. They will loot anything not nailed down but that's hardly unusual for PCs
    Besides that they generally only do it when they are bored, and pretty much as a form of exploration.
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    Default Re: Does anyone NOT hate Kender?

    The problem with kender is that they behave like player characters.

    • They loot random shiny stuff which doesn't belong to them (not that they understand "ownership" except as it relates to them anyway).

    • They ignore whatever dramatic moment is unfolding around them to poke random things.

    • They expect everyone to be nice to them, always, no matter how much they misbehave.

    • They manage to succeed at tasks which should be well beyond them, but events just happen to create a scenario where they win through all the same.


    Seriously, can you imagine if there was an actual race which behaved the way player characters do? And if they were small and easily filled with holes by sharp objects, yet inexplicably not filled with holes by sharp objects?

    No wonder everyone hates those guys.
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    Default Re: Does anyone NOT hate Kender?

    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Brau View Post
    I've been reading through the "Fantasy Races you hate" thread and it got me curious. Apparently a large amount of the rpg player base, myself included, despise Kender with a passion and think the only good Kender is a roasted Kender. Are there any folks out there who either tolerate or outright like/enjoy Kender? If so, why?
    I love Kender. They are highly curious creatures, usually intelligent though flighty, and always(almost) in a good mood. I just like them in general, remind me a lot of myself without the natural pickpocketing, oops, I mean borrowing ^^
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Does anyone NOT hate Kender?

    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Brau View Post
    and think the only good Kender is a roasted Kender.
    Boiled Kender, ground Kender, and fried Kender can also be good. I think that there is also a group of particularly cultivated Hobgoblins who make an excellent Kender foie gras.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Does anyone NOT hate Kender?

    Quote Originally Posted by Craft (Cheese) View Post
    Not as written, but reading that thread gave me a great idea of how to make them more palatable:

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    Kender are actually ruled by a Lady of Pain-esque dark god that, for reasons unknown, forces her Kender to act like hyper-annoying kleptomaniacs. The kender are all terrified of her because she sends her demonic minions after anyone who she catches breaking character.
    I will second the amazingness of that. Just because I'm a major fan of Right of Caste deals where people are forced to behave a certain way and it's part of the plot to introspect that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    Here's a question, (And hopefully won't annoy the OP) how does one play a kender right, without annoying the DM or players, and true to the intent of the race?
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    Default Re: Does anyone NOT hate Kender?

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    I really like Kender and enjoy playing them. Mostly because they are a lot of fun in general. You basically make a character whose goal is to have fun and is more or less irrational. And every NPC knows it just by knowing what race you are. It's the ultimate choice to play CN really.

    It can be really annoying for your teamates if it's done poorly though. You can't go around stealing all their stuff and getting away with it. Some good basic rules are:

    1. Don't steal things at inappropriate times. Stealing the fighter's main weapon and hiding it just before the boss battle is never a good play. Basically steal things when the party is in downtime and just roleplaying with each other.

    2. When stealing from party members don't be subtle about it. After all in the Kender's mind you've done nothing wrong. So openly play around with the magic item or go up to the wizard and ask what a word means in his spellbook.

    2.b. 1 and 2 can basically be summed up in this: A Kender's thefts are roleplaying. Don't try and get any tangible benefits for them and make sure they are fun for everyone. Else don't do it.

    3. Be prepared to be disliked by every single NPC you meet. At the same time don't expect to be treated seriously. This means that you are going to be left out of some roleplaying encounters because the king isn't going to meet with a Kender.

    4. Don't be annoying for annoying sakes. That only happens when a Kender is bored. And if you are on an adventure you shouldn't be bored often.

    So why do I like Kender? Because if they are played well they are fun to be around and lead to interesting roleplaying. However like being CN playing as a Kender does not give you the right to do whatever you want. Always keep in mind that you have to be reasonable.


    Honest Tiefling is right. In the books the Kender don't steal that much. They will loot anything not nailed down but that's hardly unusual for PCs
    Besides that they generally only do it when they are bored, and pretty much as a form of exploration.
    You have it in one, Forum Explorer. I personally didn't dislike kender that much when I briefly played in a party that had one, but part of that was because I wasn't with the group for very long. The kender character didn't steal anything, he was just obsessed with his "Kender Spoon of Turning," a piece of flatware he believed to have the power to turn undead like a holy symbol. We never got to test his theory.

    I have to agree that the main problem people seem to have with kender is when kender are roleplayed poorly, same with paladins, chaotic neutral characters and non-evil drow. They generally start out as a flanderized version of the source material that only gets worse with each iteration until they become almost universally loathed.

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    Default Re: Does anyone NOT hate Kender?

    I myself would simply fluff their kleptomania and not roll actual dice nor change mechanics in any hard-set way.

    For example, the group wizard says "I whip out my Wand of Prestidigitation and magic myself clean." Instead, he fumbles around his belt for a couple seconds and throws the kender a icy stare. She smiles back openly and offers the wizard the same wand, noting helpfully that maybe he could use this instead. No permanent changes, no actions lost, just roleplaying.
    Last edited by Cespenar; 2012-07-02 at 12:47 AM.
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    Default Re: Does anyone NOT hate Kender?

    There is basically no circumstance where you should not break all of a kender's fingers.
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    Default Re: Does anyone NOT hate Kender?

    I don't! Kenders are awesome.

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    Default Re: Does anyone NOT hate Kender?

    Kender are awesome, both to play and to have in the party, as long as the kender player doesn't use it as an excuse to be disruptive. A well-played kender can create a lot of memorable comedic situations(like this). However, playing a kender does NOT mean you should talk nonstop and steal everything in sight. Like Forum Explorer said, kender should be roleplayed in moderation, at appropriate times.

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    Default Re: Does anyone NOT hate Kender?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vovix View Post
    Kender are awesome, both to play and to have in the party, as long as the kender player doesn't use it as an excuse to be disruptive.
    I think this is key. It's similar to Malkavians (insane vampires from Vampire The Masquerade): they work very well if played well, but most players attracted to them are The Loonie archetype and will just use them as an excuse to be disruptive.

    So bottom line is that I wouldn't allow most players to play a kender (or malk) in my campaign. Not that I've ever played Dragonlance anyway.
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    Default Re: Does anyone NOT hate Kender?

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    snip
    ...go up to the wizard and ask what a word means in his spellbook.
    snip
    I might have to steal borrow that idea for my kender.

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    Default Re: Does anyone NOT hate Kender?

    I'm neutral on Kender. I liked Tasslehoff, but could take or leave any others.

    I liked Dragonlance, pre mess it all up age. It was a great setting, fairly low magic. However then they had to screw it all up for.. I dunno what reasons.
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    Default Re: Does anyone NOT hate Kender?

    Personally, I don't mind them.

    See, here's the thing - most people do it wrong, and take actually useful items, and keep them. But if a Kender goes through a wizard's pockets, what is he going to take, that boring old valuable spellbook or the little beautiful mirror he uses to shave each morning? In a kender's mind there's no contest - I mean, look at that mirror, it's so shiny!

    And Kenders rarely get to keep what they take often - they actively use it without remorse, because they don't understand they've done anything wrong. So they're most frequently caught withing moments.

    Basically, a kender's thieving is a quirk, like a stutter. Just flavor. It should not be used to inconvenience the party or empower yourself - and if you can't think of it like that, you're going to have trouble playing kender.
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    Default Re: Does anyone NOT hate Kender?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grail View Post
    Everything about Dragonlance is terrible and should be blasted into the sun at high velocity.
    I endorse this statement. =)

    I pretty much have a kill on sight policy for kender now. It's turned out to be much less troublesome.
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    Default Re: Does anyone NOT hate Kender?

    It's not always even the player. I remember one story told on here that had one player as a kender, and another playing an ooze master (or something like that). The kender player was playing it as fluff, but the DM ruled that the kender took an item (spellbook or something similar) of the ooze master's that it should have been impossible to take (it was specially protected so that only the ooze master could retrieve it).

    Or the case that personally happened to me, where my character went into a room with a kender, and then I was told I had to check to see what was stolen from me, because I was in a room with a kender, so something was definitely just stolen from me. It's that sort of thing that gets to me.

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