Magic: The Gathering Thread XIV: Instant Annoying, Just Add Hexproof

[Lord Seth]

Went 2-1-1 at my prerelease. The annoying thing is that that doesn't get you a better prize than 2-2. Honestly, I should have won the first and maybe second round. The first I was one turn away from winning in the third game, but time ran out. The annoying thing is that if my opponent hadn't spent a few minutes sleeving his cards at the start, we wouldn't have run out. The second round had me decide to sideboard out a card for another in the second game of it...only to have the second card be useless in the game and the original one would've really, really helped me out. Not sure if I would've won it, but I would've had a better chance.

[Sith_Happens]

Seeing as I have Rancor on the brain right now, I'm wondering whether it would be worth putting in my Madness deck and if so, what to take out for it.

Current decklist:

Spoiler

Show

Creatures:

x4 Wild Mongrel
x4 Basking Rootwala
x4 Arrogant Wurm
x4 Anger

Non-Creature Spells:

x4 Faithless Looting
x3 Lightning Axe
x4 Fiery Temper
x4 Roar of the Wurm
x2 Howling Mine
x3 Green Sun's Zenith
x2 Burning Wish

Lands:

x4 Wooded Foothills
x4 Stomping Ground
x4 Rootbound Crag
x5 Forest
x5 Mountain

[Penguinizer]

I'm not all convinced by Green Sun's Zenith in the deck. You just don't have much use for it. You don't have any utility creatures to search other than Mongrel. I'd recommend adding some sort of utility toolbox.

Also, Werebear is great in Madness.

[Sith_Happens]

I'm not all convinced by Green Sun's Zenith in the deck. You just don't have much use for it. You don't have any utility creatures to search other than Mongrel.

Correct, Zenith is pretty much just there to search for Mongrels (or occassionally Rootwalas). That qualifies as a lot of use for it, though, because Mongrel has a huge target on its back and without one I'm SOL as far as tempo goes.

Also, Werebear is great in Madness.

Personally I'd go for Nimble Mongoose first, but as is I'm short on room for either anyways.

[Meta]

Pulled Sands and Jace at the prerelease.

Shenanigans ensued.

[IcemanJRC]

Oh, you're in the same boat as me! I also went 2-2 in my prerelease, although one of the wins was a bye and I also had a draw as well. I ran a R/G deck though, since I got Rancor a bunch of excellent 4-drops for both Red and Green. We can be 2-2 buddies!

On another note, thanks for the help, guys. I've looked at the Delver decks, and I like it! The key components of the deck are cheap enough that I could easily justify it to myself. I'm thinking of dropping White in favour of a Mono-Blue deck, though.

How does something like this sound?

I've got about half of the cards necessary already from the Event Deck I picked up, and the rest are relatively cheap with the exceptions of Talrand and Jace. I can probably replace Jace with something else, but I kinda just really like the card.

Elagune! It's awesome to hear that you're playing now. I played MonoBlue Delver when Innistrad first came out and I could recommend some stuff.

First off, I do not feel like Jace is the right decision for this deck. His abilities aren't exactly synergistic and he's expensive. Second, Talrand is an interesting idea and I think it'll be interesting, but I don't think you want four.
I'd personally cut down to two or three if you want. Testing will tell if you want him to stick around or drop his numbers, but four strikes me as too many. 24 Islands is a lot and Delver doesn't usually need that many, try 22 and see how it works. If you take those suggestions that leaves 5 or 6 spots open, things I liked in my MonoBlue Delver included Silver-Inlaid Dagger, Invisible Stalker and Psychic Barrier.

Though of course, it's your deck and you should try out what you think will be good.

Negate aren't good enough i think.

I'd run some in the sideboard, but I agree they don't pull their weight in the Main most of the time.

And you need snapcasters, they are expensive but you need them.

I disagree. Strongly. Snapcaster is in no way a necessity. If you have him, play him, if not don't worry. His utility is not enough to advocate an 80 dollar purchase to a literally brand new player. He's highly overrated anyway. Though Elagune, I definitely recommend you keep an eye out for him and try and pick him up if you can do it easily. If you don't mind paying that much then I recommend him, but you seem to want to keep a lower budget.

Also i don't think jace will be very good in the deck.

Agreed.

[Meta]

Oh, you're in the same boat as me! I also went 2-2 in my prerelease, although one of the wins was a bye and I also had a draw as well. I ran a R/G deck though, since I got Rancor a bunch of excellent 4-drops for both Red and Green. We can be 2-2 buddies!

On another note, thanks for the help, guys. I've looked at the Delver decks, and I like it! The key components of the deck are cheap enough that I could easily justify it to myself. I'm thinking of dropping White in favour of a Mono-Blue deck, though.

How does something like this sound?



I've got about half of the cards necessary already from the Event Deck I picked up, and the rest are relatively cheap with the exceptions of Talrand and Jace. I can probably replace Jace with something else, but I kinda just really like the card.

Am I correct in assuming you're gearing this up for post rotation?

[Penguinizer]

I'm tempted to run the following in post-rotation (pending changes for reprints and new cards) for Bant 'Gro.

Spoiler

Show

Creatures:
4x Quirion Dryad
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Delver of Secrets
3x Geist of Saint Traft

Stuff:
4x Rancor
2x Runechanter's Pike

Instants/Sorceries:
4x Lingering Souls
4x Ponder variant (flex slot if one doesn't exist)
4x Unsummon
4x Essence Scatter
2x Negate

Lands:
3x Terramorphic/Evolving Wilds
2x Glacial Fortress
4x Hinterland Harbor
3x Sunpetal Grove
3x Island
3x Plains
2x Forest

Considering:
Serra Avenger

[IcemanJRC]

I'm tempted to run the following in post-rotation (pending changes for reprints and new cards) for Bant 'Gro.

Spoiler

Show

Creatures:
4x Quirion Dryad
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Delver of Secrets
3x Geist of Saint Traft

Stuff:
4x Rancor
2x Runechanter's Pike

Instants/Sorceries:
4x Lingering Souls
4x Ponder variant (flex slot if one doesn't exist)
4x Unsummon
4x Essence Scatter
2x Negate

Lands:
3x Terramorphic/Evolving Wilds
2x Glacial Fortress
4x Hinterland Harbor
3x Sunpetal Grove
3x Island
3x Plains
2x Forest

Considering:
Serra Avenger

Without black, Lingering Souls is just worse than Midnight Haunting. I recommend the switch. Looks interesting though.

[tgva8889]

You know, if you aren't going to play any way to make Black mana, you could play Midnight Haunting instead of Lingering Souls. Being an Instant seems better than a Flashback cost you will never pay.

I assume your "Ponder variant" would be Thought Scour.

Do you really want Pike in a deck with only 18 Instants or Sorceries? I don't think you have space for 6 creature enhancers, you need the Instants and Sorceries to get value out of Delver and Snapcaster.

[Penguinizer]

You know, if you aren't going to play any way to make Black mana, you could play Midnight Haunting instead of Lingering Souls. Being an Instant seems better than a Flashback cost you will never pay.

I assume your "Ponder variant" would be Thought Scour.

Do you really want Pike in a deck with only 18 Instants or Sorceries? I don't think you have space for 6 creature enhancers, you need the Instants and Sorceries to get value out of Delver and Snapcaster.

I could probably cut out the Rancors to make space. I just couldn't really think of enough good cards post-rotation that are out yet. I assume more stuff will come though.

-4 Rancor, +4 ???

I'll try it out on Cockatrice (since I don't feel like getting the cards on anything official yet) and give you my thoughts. I'm running Gut Shot as a temporary card.

EDIT: Played vs. Vampires, not a massive fan so far. I think I might just go with pure UG. Although I'm not completely sure.

[The Extinguisher]

You could probably keep Lingering Souls and splash black if we are getting shock lands.

[Lord Seth]

I'm tempted to run the following in post-rotation (pending changes for reprints and new cards) for Bant 'Gro.

Spoiler

Show

Creatures:
4x Quirion Dryad
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Delver of Secrets
3x Geist of Saint Traft

Stuff:
4x Rancor
2x Runechanter's Pike

Instants/Sorceries:
4x Lingering Souls
4x Ponder variant (flex slot if one doesn't exist)
4x Unsummon
4x Essence Scatter
2x Negate

Lands:
3x Terramorphic/Evolving Wilds
2x Glacial Fortress
4x Hinterland Harbor
3x Sunpetal Grove
3x Island
3x Plains
2x Forest

Considering:
Serra Avenger

People have already commented on the Lingering Souls, but I do think you should up the Geist count to four. Yeah, he's a legend, but anything with a power of 2 or greater will finish it, so you can go through them surprisingly fast.

Are six counterspells really necessary?

[9mm]

Spoiler

Show

Creatures:
4x Auger of Bolos
4x Vampire nighthawk
4x Ravonous Rats
4x Mist Raven or aethersworn adept
2x Talrand, Sky summoner

Stuff:
2x exliir of immortality

Instants/Sorceries:
2x ghostly Ficker
4x Duress
4x Despise
4x Unsummon
3x Essence Scatter
3x Negate

Lands:
3x Evolving Wilds
8 islands
7 swamps

debating cutting flicker and Talrand for some form of removal, thoughts?

[tgva8889]

Why Elixir of Immortality? Seems weak and doesn't really do anything related to your strategy. Better to play a removal spell like Victim of Night, Tragic Slip, or Murder since you currently have no way to actually beat any problem creatures.

Also, only 18 lands is INCREDIBLY sketchy with no cantrips or ways to fix your mana whatsoever. I definitely suggest increasing to 22 at minimum and probably adding some Thought Scours and/or Think Twices to help smooth out your mana draws.

Unsummon < Vapor Snag. I suggest Vapor Snag instead, it's actually just straight better in 90% of situations. If you're going to bounce your own creatures, I suggest playing Peel from Reality instead. But even then Vapor Snag is probably still going to be better most of the time.

[Bucky]

Once again, M13 has an infinite combo in it. Once again, it's horribly impractical.

[IthilanorStPete]

Once again, M13 has an infinite combo in it. Once again, it's horribly impractical.

What is it?

[tgva8889]

Is it 3 Oblivion Rings? It's totally 3 Oblivion Rings.

[Binks]

Faith's Reward + Archaeomancer + Bloodthrone Vampire + 2 Torch Fiends + 2 Gilded Lotus? Is that insanely complicated enough to quality? Archaeomancer + Faith's reward can probably enable dozens of infinite combos.

Explanation

Spoiler

Show

Faith's Reward in hand. Archaeomancer, Vampire, Fiends and Lotuses on the field.

Sac Archaeomancer to Vampire.
Tap both lotuses, 1 for 3 white, 1 for 3 red.
2 red to sac both Torch Fiends, destroying the Lotuses
4 (3 white, 1 red) to cast Faith's reward.
Archaeomancer enters the battlefield, returning Faith's reward to hand

You now have Faith's in hand, Archaeomancer, Vampire, Fiends and Lotuses on the field. Back where you started. Go nuts.

[tgva8889]

So did you just use 7 cards in order to... attack someone with an arbitrarily large Bloodthrone Vampire? Sounds super-convoluted to me! (Also requires 2 copies of Gilded Lotus, a rare. Just to make it even harder.)

[Penguinizer]

So did you just use 7 cards in order to... attack someone with an arbitrarily large Bloodthrone Vampire? Sounds super-convoluted to me! (Also requires 2 copies of Gilded Lotus, a rare. Just to make it even harder.)

I still vote that The 4 Horsemen is the most convoluted combo ever. It had to essentially be banned since it could feasibly take more than an hour to play properly even if you're playing at a fast pace.

I have this spot in my heart for silly things like that.

[IcemanJRC]

Care to explain? That sounds awesome.

[Penguinizer]

The combo used Mesmeric Orb and Basalt Monolith for infinite self mill and basically relied on milling yourself and shuffling your gave into your deck with Emrakul until you hit the right cards in the correct order to combo off. The problem is that since it's an infinite loop with choices and variable outcomes you can't shortcut it.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=309361

Here's a thread that explains it.

[Sith_Happens]

The combo used Mesmeric Orb and Basalt Monolith for infinite self mill and basically relied on milling yourself and shuffling your gave into your deck with Emrakul until you hit the right cards in the correct order to combo off. The problem is that since it's an infinite loop with choices and variable outcomes you can't shortcut it.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=309361

Here's a thread that explains it.

That is one of the most beautiful, horrifying, and hilarious things I've ever read, all at the same time.

[IcemanJRC]

The combo used Mesmeric Orb and Basalt Monolith for infinite self mill and basically relied on milling yourself and shuffling your gave into your deck with Emrakul until you hit the right cards in the correct order to combo off. The problem is that since it's an infinite loop with choices and variable outcomes you can't shortcut it.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=309361

Here's a thread that explains it.

I shed a tear at how beautiful that is.

[tgva8889]

Is this like how if someone generates a million tokens and someone else resolves Scrambleverse, the game basically goes to time because they have to somehow randomly determine who gains control of each token?

The 4 Horsemen isn't banned, you just can't feasibly win a tournament with it. You will accumulate too many Slow Play warnings to win the tournament.

[Elagune]

Elagune! It's awesome to hear that you're playing now. I played MonoBlue Delver when Innistrad first came out and I could recommend some stuff.

First off, I do not feel like Jace is the right decision for this deck. His abilities aren't exactly synergistic and he's expensive. Second, Talrand is an interesting idea and I think it'll be interesting, but I don't think you want four.
I'd personally cut down to two or three if you want. Testing will tell if you want him to stick around or drop his numbers, but four strikes me as too many. 24 Islands is a lot and Delver doesn't usually need that many, try 22 and see how it works. If you take those suggestions that leaves 5 or 6 spots open, things I liked in my MonoBlue Delver included Silver-Inlaid Dagger, Invisible Stalker and Psychic Barrier.

Though of course, it's your deck and you should try out what you think will be good.


I'd run some in the sideboard, but I agree they don't pull their weight in the Main most of the time.



I disagree. Strongly. Snapcaster is in no way a necessity. If you have him, play him, if not don't worry. His utility is not enough to advocate an 80 dollar purchase to a literally brand new player. He's highly overrated anyway. Though Elagune, I definitely recommend you keep an eye out for him and try and pick him up if you can do it easily. If you don't mind paying that much then I recommend him, but you seem to want to keep a lower budget.



Agreed.

Thanks for the suggestions, Iceman. It's always great to see people I know in topics I've never been to before.

But yeah, it looks like Jace isn't the best choice for the deck, and I guess that's fine. I'll probably still get him anyway, since I love his art and I'm thinking of making a casual mill deck. If Negate isn't good enough for the main deck, should I switch it out for Essence Scatter instead? Or, Psychic Barrier is probably better, but Phyrexia is getting rotated out in three months...

I guess it makes sense that I should turn down the amount of Talrands. He is kind of a 2/2 with almost nothing else. Still, if I have a Gut Shot or a Gitaxian Probe or something, that's almost two 2/2s for free.

And yeah, Snapcaster Mage isn't happening. I don't have THAT much money. Maybe if I get lucky in trades or opening a pack or something...

Am I correct in assuming you're gearing this up for post rotation?

Kind of! I'll be using some Phyrexian commons until they rotate out, but for the most part I'm just trying to build a deck that wouldn't completely fall apart the moment the rotation happens.

[IcemanJRC]

Is this like how if someone generates a million tokens and someone else resolves Scrambleverse, the game basically goes to time because they have to somehow randomly determine who gains control of each token?

The 4 Horsemen isn't banned, you just can't feasibly win a tournament with it. You will accumulate too many Slow Play warnings to win the tournament.

I would still try it.

Thanks for the suggestions, Iceman. It's always great to see people I know in topics I've never been to before.

But yeah, it looks like Jace isn't the best choice for the deck, and I guess that's fine. I'll probably still get him anyway, since I love his art and I'm thinking of making a casual mill deck. If Negate isn't good enough for the main deck, should I switch it out for Essence Scatter instead? Or, Psychic Barrier is probably better, but Phyrexia is getting rotated out in three months...

I guess it makes sense that I should turn down the amount of Talrands. He is kind of a 2/2 with almost nothing else. Still, if I have a Gut Shot or a Gitaxian Probe or something, that's almost two 2/2s for free.

And yeah, Snapcaster Mage isn't happening. I don't have THAT much money. Maybe if I get lucky in trades or opening a pack or something...



Kind of! I'll be using some Phyrexian commons until they rotate out, but for the most part I'm just trying to build a deck that wouldn't completely fall apart the moment the rotation happens.

Any time man, any time. But yeah, Negate should probably be either Psychic Barrier or Essence Scatter. Creatures are a much bigger problem than spells. And on Talrand, I think he'll manage to be surprising and I definitely want to know how he turns out if you get a chance to play him, but I stand by 4 being too many. Good luck with this Elagune, it's pretty good for what I assume is your first go at deck-building.

[9mm]

Why Elixir of Immortality? Seems weak and doesn't really do anything related to your strategy. Better to play a removal spell like Victim of Night, Tragic Slip, or Murder since you currently have no way to actually beat any problem creatures.

Also, only 18 lands is INCREDIBLY sketchy with no cantrips or ways to fix your mana whatsoever. I definitely suggest increasing to 22 at minimum and probably adding some Thought Scours and/or Think Twices to help smooth out your mana draws.

elixir is there because the deck is really reliant at heading off threats with duress, dispise, and my counter spells and I own no snap-casters, so exlir becomes "pay 3, get your spells back." I really wish I had space for ways to just go digging through my graveyard to get spells, but they're pretty much constantly out of my price range. Card draw would be nice, but well, I have really only 6 open slots and your land advice eats 4. would you feel cutting all bounce for removal + murder of crows work?

Unsummon > Vapor snag because I own unsummon, otherwise I agree.

[Lord Seth]

Is this like how if someone generates a million tokens and someone else resolves Scrambleverse, the game basically goes to time because they have to somehow randomly determine who gains control of each token?

The 4 Horsemen isn't banned, you just can't feasibly win a tournament with it. You will accumulate too many Slow Play warnings to win the tournament.

Really? I mean, High Tide has a fairly lengthy turn when it goes off, and that sometimes wins tournaments.