Magic: The Gathering Thread XIV: Instant Annoying, Just Add Hexproof

[Lord Seth]

They could just ban Wasteland in Modern. Problem solved! They have said they're entirely willing to use the Banned List as a tool to keep eternal formats interesting.

That's honestly something I very much dislike. They should just not introduce cards that need to be banned in the first place. I can understand some cards can slip through, but I don't like the "let's print this and if it's too powerful, we can just ban it!" idea. If it could be too powerful, don't print it. The goal for formats should be a smaller banned list, not a larger one.

And honestly, I think Force of Will needs some kind of a reprint a lot more than Wasteland.

It does ugly things to Jund. Though, really, it does ugly things to any deck that relies on non-basics to smooth out painful curves: something Magic as a whole isn't still comfortable with.

I thought he was talking about Grim Tutor, not Wasteland--quoting a message in which I'm talking about both makes it unclear which one you're referring to, and I assumed he was replying to the lowest part.

However, there should be nonbasic land hate. I just have large doubts that Wasteland is correct for Modern. I'd rather see something like Back to Basics reprinted as nonbasic land hate than Wasteland.

[Fable Wright]

However, there should be nonbasic land hate. I just have large doubts that Wasteland is correct for Modern. I'd rather see something like Back to Basics reprinted as nonbasic land hate than Wasteland.

There is still Ghost Quarter and Tectonic Edge. Nonbasic land late nowadays is made to remove problem lands without completely screwing over a manabase. Wasteland is Wasteland; it can very well screw over a manabase in the early game rather than just being nonbasic land hate. It's why they try to avoid making cards like Stone Rain as well as avoiding cards like Wasteland.

[stormtemplar]

Hey guys, I'm new to magic, but I've been running the death's encroach event deck with some minor modifications (Replaced gloom surgeon and crypt creeper) http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...ily/arcana/967

Come october 5th I'm losing most of my spells and my skinrenders and my cemetery reaper. I'm looking to maybe move into some sort of blue/Black zombie deck after getting pounded by a deck with a fair amount of protection from black. I need removal, some sort of replacement for lastwrithe. Duress should help replace despise and distress, mind rot might also help. Can I get some card suggestions?

[Ninjaman]

Hey guys, I'm new to magic, but I've been running the death's encroach event deck with some minor modifications (Replaced gloom surgeon and crypt creeper) http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...ily/arcana/967

Come october 5th I'm losing most of my spells and my skinrenders and my cemetery reaper. I'm looking to maybe move into some sort of blue/Black zombie deck after getting pounded by a deck with a fair amount of protection from black. I need removal, some sort of replacement for lastwrithe. Duress should help replace despise and distress, mind rot might also help. Can I get some card suggestions?

Hey i play blue/black zombies here is my list:

Spoiler

Show

4 Blood artist
4 Diregraf captain
4 Diregraf ghoul
4 Geralf's messanger
4 Grave crawler
4 Phantasmal image
2 Skinrender

4 Go for the throat
4 Tragic slip

2 Mortar pods

2 Killing wave

22 lands

My best advise would be to wait till after ravnica has been spoiled. Then after that you can tool around with the different decks, and find out what is possible (Black green zombies with rancor anyone?).

[tgva8889]

That's honestly something I very much dislike. They should just not introduce cards that need to be banned in the first place. I can understand some cards can slip through, but I don't like the "let's print this and if it's too powerful, we can just ban it!" idea. If it could be too powerful, don't print it. The goal for formats should be a smaller banned list, not a larger one.

And honestly, I think Force of Will needs some kind of a reprint a lot more than Wasteland.

Maybe, but I'm sure they feel wary of doing that after two seasons being dominated by U/W Tempo decks. I'm sure they think that Force of Will would make such a deck even more powerful/annoying, whether it actually would or not. Force would be kinda cool in a multicolor set, though. I think Wasteland is a more likely reprint in Standard than Force of Will since free spells scare the crap out of Development.

It's debatable which one is more necessary. I dunno how many people want to play Force in EDH but I think if given the option everyone ever would play a Wasteland in their deck. I'm not sure if that increases demand to counter the (I think) greater play of Force in Legacy.

However, there should be nonbasic land hate. I just have large doubts that Wasteland is correct for Modern. I'd rather see something like Back to Basics reprinted as nonbasic land hate than Wasteland.

They'd never reprint Back to Basics. If they won't give us "Stone Rain for nonbasic lands" they won't give us "Choke for nonbasic lands." Choke is much, much less fun to play against than Stone Rain.

[breakdownjason]

So I just got back into Magic after a few years and went to my first FNM this week. I had to leave after just 2 rounds, but I managed to go 1-2 the first round (and the third game was decided by who drew the first big threat after dropping a total of 27 lands by both of us ) and then promptly rocked my next round 2-0 in 14 minutes. My deck, while performing quite well still seems to need a little tweaking, so I figured I would post it here for some advice (I'm not exactly poor, but I can't afford to be dropping a whole lot of money on it overall) from some experienced players.

breakdownjason's Black Zombie Aggro Control

Spoiler

Show

Lands
Swamp x22
Ghost Quarter x2

Creatures
Gravecrawler x3
Diregraf Ghoul x4
Treacherous Pit-Dweller x2
Highborn Ghoul x4
Cemetary Reaper x2
Geralf's Messenger x3
Phyrexian Obliterator
Bloodgift Demon
Grave Titan

Spells
Tragic Slip x3
Doom Blade x2
Altar's Reap x2
Go for the Throat x3
Despise x3
Lashwrithe x2

Sideboard
Surgical Extraction x2
Altar's Reap
Tragic Slip
Despise
Duress x2
Appetite for Brains x2
Killing Wave
Sever the Bloodline
Hex Parasite
Ratchet Bomb
Nihil Spellbomb x2

Basically I play it as an aggro deck with a fair amount of removal. The sideboard is used to switch into a few answers for other deck types (especially the Surgical Extraction's for control, Nihil Spellbomb's for Flashback and Appetite for Brains' for Ramp). Any other advice would be greatly appreciated.

Edit: I currently average 2.1 mana per spell and would like to keep it low, so nothing like Zombie Apocalypse, please, unless it will completely facilitate me rocking face.

[Lord Seth]

Maybe, but I'm sure they feel wary of doing that after two seasons being dominated by U/W Tempo decks. I'm sure they think that Force of Will would make such a deck even more powerful/annoying, whether it actually would or not. Force would be kinda cool in a multicolor set, though. I think Wasteland is a more likely reprint in Standard than Force of Will since free spells scare the crap out of Development.

I'm not talking about Standard (Force of Will does not belong in that format, especially not right now!), I'm talking about general reprints in some way or another.

They'd never reprint Back to Basics. If they won't give us "Stone Rain for nonbasic lands" they won't give us "Choke for nonbasic lands." Choke is much, much less fun to play against than Stone Rain.

I never said they should reprint Back to Basics, just that I think it's a better choice than Wasteland. Though it is worth pointing out that Stone Rain hits everything. Choke only hits Islands.

I've got no idea why they somehow think Stone Rain is too powerful though, the card's pretty weak. But apparently a card people don't play is so powerful that they have to print a strictly worse version...

[tgva8889]

It's not about power with land destruction/hate effects, it's about fun. Stone Rain isn't a fun card because it prevents people from playing the game at all, since you can't play spells without lands. That's why they weaken it to the point of Craterize.

If they won't give us Stone Rain for nonbasics only (which they won't do, because "destroy target nonbasic land" is still a "destroy target land" effect for 3 mana, I've asked) they definitely won't give us Choke for the same set of cards.

The best place to reprint things is probably Standard if they want to decrease the price significantly. Putting Force into the Commander products would be nice but they couldn't put it in all of them like Sol Ring and it would skew the prices of the decks. If they printed it in Standard, it wouldn't skew the price of packs/boxes nearly as much as it would a precon which would, I think, be better overall price-wise.

[Lord Seth]

It's not about power with land destruction/hate effects, it's about fun. Stone Rain isn't a fun card because it prevents people from playing the game at all, since you can't play spells without lands.

Except it's a pretty weak card. I mean, like, Sinkhole, that card was too much, especially when combined with all the other stuff Black has in its arsenal, but Stone Rain just isn't very good or effective anymore. I'd probably love it if my opponents played it, it'd be a card they're using instead of a card that would be more effective.

That's why they weaken it to the point of Craterize.

Because clearly Demolish was causing so many problems it needed to be weakened even more.

I could understand them swapping out Stone Rain for Demolish. But Craterize is just awful.

If they won't give us Stone Rain for nonbasics only (which they won't do, because "destroy target nonbasic land" is still a "destroy target land" effect for 3 mana, I've asked)

What. Are they honestly saying three mana is too much for destroying a nonbasic land?

I wish they'd at least bring back Molten Rain.

[tgva8889]

They're saying a 3 mana spell that destroys lands with certainty is not good for the game. It's not about what's too powerful or too good for Constructed, it's about what's fun for people playing at kitchen tables and such. People who play casual aren't huge fans of Stone Rain.

[Lord Seth]

Even back when I was much more of a casual player, I still had no problems with Stone Rain (Sinkhole was annoying though). Land destruction is just a pretty weak strategy unless you're doing Pox or something.

[Meta]

It's not that Stone Rain is too powerful at all, it's just where it is powerful, annoying, and linear: a casual LD deck with a bunch of stone rain clones basically demands your opponent have some sort of 2 mana answer and when you look at casual, that's not incredibly different than say voltaic key/time vault so I get where WotC is coming from.

[tgva8889]

Not all casual players are the same. From what I've heard, they have market research that suggests these things, that's why they've done them. I agree, I wish they would just give us Stone Rain back, but they won't so we have to settle with Acidic Slime for playable LD.

[Mystic Muse]

For my Standard legal W/G Deck, should I keep my Beast Withins in it until they rotate, or are they not very good as a removal card?

[Ninjaman]

For my Standard legal W/G Deck, should I keep my Beast Withins in it until they rotate, or are they not very good as a removal card?

You should keep it. The thing is it doesn't just shoot creatures, it shoots all permanents, including walkers.

[Lhurgyof]

This is just my 2 cents, but I find ghost quarter very underwhelming. Aside from sniping a maze, it doesn't do much of anything. Maybe against decks that have mana problems.

[Lord Seth]

There is still Ghost Quarter and Tectonic Edge.

The former of which is pretty bad (why couldn't it make the land come into play tapped at least?) and the latter of which is, while better for Modern than Wasteland, still a little weak. I wish it had been lowered to requiring three instead of four lands.

Nonbasic land late nowadays is made to remove problem lands without completely screwing over a manabase. Wasteland is Wasteland; it can very well screw over a manabase in the early game rather than just being nonbasic land hate.

Which is the price you pay for nonbasics. Although if Wasteland actually does screw over your manabase, then you're obviously going so far with the nonbasics that you should have more trouble with it. It's why people use fetchlands for basic lands in Legacy if they might face a Wasteland. If your deck spreads its mana out so far that you can't be running basic lands (e.g. Canadian Threshold) then you should have a bigger weakness in that department.

This is just my 2 cents, but I find ghost quarter very underwhelming. Aside from sniping a maze, it doesn't do much of anything. Maybe against decks that have mana problems.

Ghost Quarter is decent when combined with Crucible of Worlds, as you can (slowly) destroy all of your opponent's lands, even if they're running all basics. Problem is that that's an extremely slow strategy and really only works in the Lands deck in Legacy, as it's built on being slow.

[Zombimode]

This is just my 2 cents, but I find ghost quarter very underwhelming. Aside from sniping a maze, it doesn't do much of anything. Maybe against decks that have mana problems.

Ghost Quarter is not a strategy on by itself. It is a sideboard piece against key targets in Standard/Block Constructed (such a Kessig Wolf Run, Blinkmoth Nexus, Moorland Haunt).

Not every card is made to fit in every environment. Its not a modern/legacy piece, and thats OK.

[Cybren]

Except it's a pretty weak card. I mean, like, Sinkhole, that card was too much, especially when combined with all the other stuff Black has in its arsenal, but Stone Rain just isn't very good or effective anymore. I'd probably love it if my opponents played it, it'd be a card they're using instead of a card that would be more effective.

Because clearly Demolish was causing so many problems it needed to be weakened even more.

I could understand them swapping out Stone Rain for Demolish. But Craterize is just awful.

What. Are they honestly saying three mana is too much for destroying a nonbasic land?

I wish they'd at least bring back Molten Rain.

Craterize isn't about powerlevel, it's because they want a card in coreset that has the text "Destroy target land" and nothing else. Just like Murder has "destroy target creature" and nothing else

[milleris]

Hey guys and gals, my brother has recently got into playing MTG via the xbox game from the marketplace so I dusted off my old decks to play with him once he bought some cards and a premade deck etc. So I thought I'd show my Rogue deck from the Lorwyn/Morningtide era, I'm sure it's pretty standard for that time and it's alot of fun. PEACH would be appreciated aswell. This is all from memory as I'm wasting time at work right now.

Spoiler

Show

4 Frogtosser Banneret
4 Oona's Blackguard
4 Prickly Boggart
4 Stinkdrinker Bandit
3/4 Latchkey Faery
2 Aunties Snitch (I don't like these, they're placehodlers really)
2 Infathom Infiltrator
1 Sygg, River Cutthroat

3 Cloak And Dagger

4 Morsal Theft
4 Peppersmoke
3 Notorious Throng
2 Ponder
2 Nameless Inversion


9 Island
12 Swamp
1 Sunken Ruin

That's probably all correct. I'd like to switch my 2 Aunties Snitchs for 2 more Inkfathom Infiltrators and get 1 or 2 more Sunken Ruins. I also forgot how many foil cards I have for this deck Any suggestions? That aren't extremely expensive?

[Cogwheel]

Hey guys and gals, my brother has recently got into playing MTG via the xbox game from the marketplace so I dusted off my old decks to play with him once he bought some cards and a premade deck etc. So I thought I'd show my Rogue deck from the Lorwyn/Morningtide era, I'm sure it's pretty standard for that time and it's alot of fun. PEACH would be appreciated aswell. This is all from memory as I'm wasting time at work right now.

Spoiler

Show

4 Frogtosser Banneret
4 Oona's Blackguard
4 Prickly Boggart
4 Stinkdrinker Bandit
3/4 Latchkey Faery
2 Aunties Snitch (I don't like these, they're placehodlers really)
2 Infathom Infiltrator
1 Sygg, River Cutthroat

3 Cloak And Dagger

4 Morsal Theft
4 Peppersmoke
3 Notorious Throng
2 Ponder
2 Nameless Inversion


9 Island
12 Swamp
1 Sunken Ruin

That's probably all correct. I'd like to switch my 2 Aunties Snitchs for 2 more Inkfathom Infiltrators and get 1 or 2 more Sunken Ruins. I also forgot how many foil cards I have for this deck Any suggestions? That aren't extremely expensive?

Invisible Stalker is really nice for UB rogues, and not that expensive. Not hugely, anyway.

[milleris]

So this Star City Games, how is delivery?

[Cogwheel]

So this Star City Games, how is delivery?

Haven't a clue! I don't even know if they're the best place to buy from. Never bought cards from anything but a store in my life. I was mostly linking that to give an idea of price.

[Fable Wright]

So this Star City Games, how is delivery?

I hear it's a reliable site- and it most likely is, as it is the largest online Magic retailer there is, and hosts a huge number of Magic related events all over the country. You don't get that far by providing unreliable services. As a side note, they're also known for relatively high markups on cards. With cheap cards, like most commons and uncommons, it's generally not noticeable, but with pricier cards, I recommend sites like TCGPlayer, which provide you with reliable retailers that generally have better prices than SCG.

As a sidenote, I'm not really sure about Peppersmoke- it doesn't really seem high enough impact. Sure, it might get rid of a few small creatures, which does seem rather nice in Lorwyn block, but you probably need more solid removal cards, such as Tragic Slip, Go for the Throat, or Doomblade.

[milleris]

Ah, fair enough. Thank you anyway!

:edit: Tragic Slip drives me mad as his deck has alot of self sac and such and things are always dieing. That 1 card in his deck has given me alot more use for the 3 Cloak and Daggers in my deck, to protect my essential cards. I do know what you mean about Peppersmoke, but it's a useful little card with some drawpower as well because I often control a Faerie.

[Lord Seth]

Craterize isn't about powerlevel, it's because they want a card in coreset that has the text "Destroy target land" and nothing else.

Then print it as the much more appropriately-costed Stone Rain. Or at least a 1RR Stone Rain if they need it.

Just like Murder has "destroy target creature" and nothing else

Murder, however, is actually a decent card. I don't think Black--Black by itself, we're not counting cards like Vindicate here--has ever had any card before that no nonsense says "destroy target creature." It's always got some kind of condition, like being a nonartifact creature (Go for the Throat) or a nonblack creature (Doom Blade) or a creature with a low enough mana cost (Smother) or making you lose life equal to its toughness (Devour in Shadow). Even goofy cards like Eye to Eye had some kind of condition. Black now has, for the first time, a card that will destroy a creature, period. I don't know if it'll necessarily see tournament play (it might post-rotation), but its uniqueness and versatility give it a shot.

Craterize, on the other hand, is just taking an already mediocre card and making it downright unplayable. For as much as I dislike the card, at least Cancel was playable.

[Mr._Blinky]

So this Star City Games, how is delivery?

I'm pretty pleased, especially recently. I just bought a box of cards off of them a couple of weeks ago, with shipping through UPS. The package was stolen off my front steps, and I had to put in a claim for it, but it was a surprisingly painless process and I managed to get a replacement within a couple of weeks with little actual fuss. They're a bit expensive, but I had a pretty good experience with their customer service and they seem very reliable; like I think someone else said, you don't get to be the top seller of a product without doing something right. And while they might be a bit expensive they aren't prohibitively so, and more importantly their pricing is consistent, which makes it easy to figure out what you want. That's my personal experience anyway.

[tgva8889]

Craterize, on the other hand, is just taking an already mediocre card and making it downright unplayable. For as much as I dislike the card, at least Cancel was playable.

We don't know if Craterize is playable or not. There may be a land that must be destroyed and no other viable options to do so, at which point Craterize becomes playable, even if we don't necessarily want to play it.

The reason that Tect Edge is 4 lands instead of 3 is specifically to prevent it from ruining an opponent's ability to play any spells at all a la Stone Rain. Notice how you can't use it like you could Stone Rain.

I can understand them wanting to make a format where you don't have to worry about people blowing up your lands when you try to play cool combinations of spells in rainbow colors. If that's what they want fine. But they can't print Kessig Wolf Run and not give us Stone Rain to answer it. That is not okay. If you are making lands that can kill me, you need to give me a Murder to kill them back.

I'd be content with, like, this:

Land Blast 2R
Sorcery
Destroy target land if its controller controls 4 or more lands.

[Lord Seth]

We don't know if Craterize is playable or not. There may be a land that must be destroyed and no other viable options to do so, at which point Craterize becomes playable, even if we don't necessarily want to play it.

That doesn't mean Craterize is good. It just means whatever card it needs to destroy is so grossly overpowered that even that becomes playable.

I can understand them not printing Stone Rain anymore, I guess. But I do hate it when they decide to print strictly worse versions of it because I still think the card is fair. The same applies to Counterspell.

The reason that Tect Edge is 4 lands instead of 3 is specifically to prevent it from ruining an opponent's ability to play any spells at all a la Wasteland.

If you can't play any spells at all with 2 lands in play, I think there's something wrong with your deck.

[tgva8889]

What's your definition of "good"? If the context were right, Craterize could be a playable card. As much as I would think Bountiful Harvest was completely unplayable, it was a key element in this 8-man. You could assume that you won't play Craterize. But it's more useful to at least try to imagine situations in which you might play it, since that gives you more information about how to make other cards useful.