Magic: The Gathering Thread XIV: Instant Annoying, Just Add Hexproof

[GodGoblin]

Hey guys so as of today ive got into Magic, I got free White and Blue quick start packs, have learnt the rules as best I can without playing and actual game and organised the 60 cards that make the deck as so-

WHITE CARDS

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Land:
13x Plains

Creature:
1x Ajani's Sunstriker
1x Abbey Griffin
2x Silvercoat Lion
1x Healer of the Pride
1x Warclamp Mastiff
1x Chapel Geist
1x Guardian Lions
1x Seraph of Dawn
1x Serra Angel

Instants:
1x Angels Mercy
1x Divine Verdict
1x Zealous Strike

Enchantment:
1x Divine Favour
1x Defang
1x Pacifism

Artefact:
1x Elixir of Immortality

BLUE CARDS

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Lands:
12x Islands

Creatures:
2x Wind Drake
2x Kraken Hatchling
1x Scroll Thief
1x Vedalken Entrancer
1x Mist Raven
1x Gryff Vanguard
1x Archeomancer
1x Jace's Phantasm

Instants:
2x Thought Scour
1x Unsummon
1x Essence Scatter

Sorcery:
1x Sleep
1x Divination
1x Mind sculpt
1x Switcheroo

So this is what im stuck with for my first few games, what im asking you guys is what would be my best strategy or play style with what Ive got available here?

The only thing that comes to mind is using Mind Sculpt and Thought Scour to fill up my opponents Graveyard before releasing a boosted Jace's Phantasm. But having mainly one of each card makes this unlikley to happen. So really im just looking at generalised strategy ideas, is it more suited to control or aggro? etc.

Havent played a game yet but would like to get a general idea of what I should be doing with this before I do, im only gaming with friends so its no a big deal but its always good to be prepared

[Togath]

While not strategy advice for which cards to play, this is a useful thing to remember; buff your strong cards over your small cards with what you have right now, look out for creatures with trample(it can be nasty against a low toughness deck), and even though a vigilance creature doesn't tap to attack, it can only attack once per turn, and flying is very good vs black or green
I also finally know what those packs are called(they were what I used in the practice match at the gaming store I went to on friday).
I also learned a new way to shuffle cards(slitting the deck into two sections, and folding those together at the corners, which is both easier to do then a poker shuffle[which I could never do] and faster--as less likely to cause damage to the cards--then the folding them together method I used to use[it's basically splitting the deck into ten sections, then putting them back together, and repeating 2-3 times]) from the guy helping me and the guy I was playing against in the practice match

[LansXero]

Right now you have 60 cards so... put them all together because you cant spare any if you want to have an actual deck?

Seriously though, the white one has very good early threats (sunstriker, the lions, the mastiffs) so you could go UW aggro with those as a base.

[tgva8889]

Nothing to really say, just seeking opinions.

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2 Hunter's Insight
2 Titanic Growth
2 Rampant Growth
2 Arachnus Web
1 Arachnus Spinner
2 Stingerfling Spider
4 Giant Spider
2 Llanowar Elves

2 Preordain
2 Unsummon
2 Cancel
2 Frost Breath
1 Jace's Ingenuity
1 Jace Beleren
4 Phantasmal Bear
2 Phantasmal Dragon
2 Lord of the Unreal
2 Aether Adept

1 Manalith
11 Forest
11 Island

Titanic Growth and Hunter's Insight are really bad with Phantasmal Bear and Dragon. Really, really bad. If you want to play those cards (and they're perfectly fine cards) I would suggest choosing some different creatures in place of the Phantasms, or switching out those spells for some better options. Hunter's Insight isn't that great a way of drawing cards in your deck anyways; it would be perfectly fine as Divination or Inspiration. Titanic Growth can be replaced by some other spell, depending on what you're looking for. I think cards like Unsummon and Frost Breath are just going to end up better for you than pump spells anyways. Something like Sleep might be effective, or you can attempt to run Downsize.

[Lea Plath]

Also, any UK peeps here?

Just in case you don't know, Meta Games in Doncaster is holding a StarCityGames Open in January next year. I'm probably gonna be going with my Jund deck, and if I've built it in time, my legacy deck.

Also, for EDH, I'm trying to build a BG spirit/reanimator/dredge deck. Basically, I use Soulshift and stuff like that to fill up my graveyard with nice big spirits them bring them back with Soulshift and Reanimator. I can also run nice big creatures like Golgari Gravetroll and stuff, as well as having access to a pretty good removal suite. The only problem I've found though is decking myself. I mill myself pretty quickly, and I might only want to pull out specific pieces, like Seedborn Muse. Can anyone suggest a way, besides Eldrazi and Elixir of Immortality for me to put my graveyard back to libary?

[Togath]

There is Psychic Spiral, though it's a 5 cmc(4 any, 1 blue) blue card, so it probably doesn't fit into a jund deck very easily

[GodGoblin]

Seriously though, the white one has very good early threats (sunstriker, the lions, the mastiffs) so you could go UW aggro with those as a base.

buff your strong cards over your small cards with what you have right now

Thanks for the advice there guys, so this looks like the play style ill be going with- buffing the tougher White beasties while using the Enchantments and Sorceries to help clear their way and de buff the opponents creatures or generally be annoying to his plans depending on what cards I pull.

Will let you know how it goes! Thanks again

[Lea Plath]

Thanks for the advice there guys, so this looks like the play style ill be going with- buffing the tougher White beasties while using the Enchantments and Sorceries to help clear their way and de buff the opponents creatures or generally be annoying to his plans depending on what cards I pull.

Will let you know how it goes! Thanks again

I disagree with Togath on the buffing strong creatures always. A rancor (+2/+0 and trample) and a 1/1 dude is a potent combo. Putting all your eggs in one basket leaves you open to removal. So look at the board, look at the mana, if they can kill your guy, buff the smaller guy.

[LansXero]

Or buff the ones with relevant abilities, like the sunstriker's lifelink or the mastiff first strike.

[tgva8889]

Determining which creature to buff is never so obvious. It's generally deck dependent and matchup dependent.

[Mystic Muse]

If I can get one, would a Solemn simulacrum be a good idea for my Norn deck?

[Meta]

Also, any UK peeps here?

Just in case you don't know, Meta Games in Doncaster is holding a StarCityGames Open in January next year. I'm probably gonna be going with my Jund deck, and if I've built it in time, my legacy deck.

Also, for EDH, I'm trying to build a BG spirit/reanimator/dredge deck. Basically, I use Soulshift and stuff like that to fill up my graveyard with nice big spirits them bring them back with Soulshift and Reanimator. I can also run nice big creatures like Golgari Gravetroll and stuff, as well as having access to a pretty good removal suite. The only problem I've found though is decking myself. I mill myself pretty quickly, and I might only want to pull out specific pieces, like Seedborn Muse. Can anyone suggest a way, besides Eldrazi and Elixir of Immortality for me to put my graveyard back to libary?

Loaming Shaman is the standard creature and Primal Command seems like the best sorcery. Barishi or Root Kavu if you want it to be delayed? I figure you're heavy on sac effects.

[Squark]

If I can get one, would a Solemn simulacrum be a good idea for my Norn deck?

Solemn Simulacrum is one of those cards that will make just about every EDH deck better.

[Xiander]

Solemn Simulacrum is one of those cards that will make just about every EDH deck better.

To elaborate; I cannot imagine an EDH deck concept which cannot benefit from Solemn Simulacrum. So unless your deck consists of cards which all benefit the deck even more, solemn simulacrum is a good bet.

In short: go for it

[Giegue]

Yeah. The only reason not to include solemn simlacrum is if your self-imposing a flavor theme on your deck, like I did with my Nicol Bolas deck in which every creature is a dragon(and I don't consider changelings dragons for this).

Also, is it just me or did return to ravnica signal the end of budget decks in standard? I know I won't be playing any standard until gatecrash comes out because there is no way in hell I can afford shocks and I happen to have a playset of godless shrines from guildpact I got as a gift a long time ago. Thus, as long as the return to ravnica block is in standard my budget says I will play W/B and ONLY W/B because the other shocks are just to darn expensive.(Though this is not really an issue since I am very partial to Orzhov and would play it until rotation even if I had the money for other shocks...) Sadly, isolated chapel has become very expensive as well so once gatecrash hits I'll probably be forced to supplement my godless shrines with crappy orzhov guild gates...at least I'll be playing W/B control, so the comes into play tapped is not as much as an issue as it would be for a fast aggro deck.

So, does anybody agree with me that it is basically impossible to make a budget standard deck now?

[Lea Plath]

Yeah. The only reason not to include solemn simlacrum is if your self-imposing a flavor theme on your deck, like I did with my Nicol Bolas deck in which every creature is a dragon(and I don't consider changelings dragons for this).

Also, is it just me or did return to ravnica signal the end of budget decks in standard? I know I won't be playing any standard until gatecrash comes out because there is no way in hell I can afford shocks and I happen to have a playset of godless shrines from guildpact I got as a gift a long time ago. Thus, as long as the return to ravnica block is in standard my budget says I will play W/B and ONLY W/B because the other shocks are just to darn expensive.(Though this is not really an issue since I am very partial to Orzhov and would play it until rotation even if I had the money for other shocks...) Sadly, isolated chapel has become very expensive as well so once gatecrash hits I'll probably be forced to supplement my godless shrines with crappy orzhov guild gates...at least I'll be playing W/B control, so the comes into play tapped is not as much as an issue as it would be for a fast aggro deck.

So, does anybody agree with me that it is basically impossible to make a budget standard deck now?

Not at all. You don't need dual lands to make a good deck and the gate are actually pretty decent, especially for slower, cheap decks. And what stops you just using basic land.

And you don't even need them. One of the successful decks at the moment is Red Deck Wins and nothing is expensive there.

If you are wanting to build a top deck, then splash out. Otherwise you won't have the best mana fixing.

[Giegue]

Yeah, but I generally don't like red decks. That's why I'm holding out for gatecrash. I am a control player at heart, and as a result I am holding out for Gatecrash so I can make Orzhov control, since I do already have a playset of godless shrines(the orzhov shock land). Also, nobody uses guildgates.....nobody. They just suck that bad. The ONLY reason to play them is budget, and the ONLY deck that won't suffer from playing them would be a control build or a controll-ish combo deck, and even then control/controlling-combo would suffer a tad from using them. I wish they just re-printed the karoo lands from the original Ravnica block. They where common duals that came into play tapped, yes, BUT they gave you a real benifit for their speed in the fact they gave you two mana. The Karoos where common duals that I'd actually like to play in control since they sacrifice speed for late game power.

The guildgates, however, do none of that. The guildgates come into play tapped and give you NOTHING for it except for the fact they are a dual. They are WORSE then the Karoo lands from the original ravnica block, and the "gate support" that wizards said would make them good is thus far underwhelming and basically almost all in green, a color I hardly ever play. The guildgates are just plain bad. Give me my old Orzhov Basilicas any day.

[Lord Seth]

I know I won't be playing any standard until gatecrash comes out because there is no way in hell I can afford shocks and I happen to have a playset of godless shrines from guildpact I got as a gift a long time ago. Thus, as long as the return to ravnica block is in standard my budget says I will play W/B and ONLY W/B because the other shocks are just to darn expensive.(Though this is not really an issue since I am very partial to Orzhov and would play it until rotation even if I had the money for other shocks...) Sadly, isolated chapel has become very expensive as well so once gatecrash hits I'll probably be forced to supplement my godless shrines with crappy orzhov guild gates...at least I'll be playing W/B control, so the comes into play tapped is not as much as an issue as it would be for a fast aggro deck.

Wait, what? Right now it's easier to make a budget deck thanks to the Guildgates. When was the last time we had dual lands at common?

So, does anybody agree with me that it is basically impossible to make a budget standard deck now?

This guy clearly doesn't.

[Giegue]

You do know that deck has 4x Blood Crypt, right? That right there means it's not budget. However, Dragonskull Summit, IMO, is budget frendly, and I suppose if you remove 4x Blood Crypt the deck would be considered budget. I just don't like red deck wins....at all. As I said, I am more of a control player. Hence, I'll be holding out for gatecrash and the orzhov. I am a Black and Black/X control player. Always have been. Mono Black control splashes like two colors with shocks now, so it's out of my price range, hence why I am waiting for gatecrash for the Orzhov and Dimir. None of the black-based control decks are in my budget range right now.

[Androgeus]

"gate support" that wizards said would make them good is thus far underwhelming and basically almost all in green, a color I hardly ever play

By all in green, do you mean 1 out of 3 cards? I won't disagree that the gate support isn't great at the moment though.

[Giegue]

Oh...I forgot about those two cards. Sorry about that. Either way, though, the gate support is crap. Wizards hyped it up saying it would make these lands matter and ultimately, it doesn't. Their design goal of making them NOT just the old common/uncommon comes into play tapped duals under new names, in my book, has utterly failed. Gatecrash may surprise me, but I'm not getting my hopes up.

Like I said, the only decks that can actually use guildgates and not suffer for it are control and controlling combo decks, and those are the decks that, ironically enough, are most dependent on rares and mythics. Thus you have an interesting conundrum; otherwise budget decks require non-budget manabases and the decks that are most difficult to build on a budget(control) are the decks that suffer the least from a budget-ized manabase.

Also, as a thought exercise, I would LOVE to see somebody try to make a budget control deck for standard.

[Lord Seth]

You do know that deck has 4x Blood Crypt, right? That right there means it's not budget.

How? Yes, it has Blood Crypts in it, but the total price of the deck is still quite low. To me, if the "Low" on TCG Player for the deck is less than $100, then it's budget. But even if you insist on a stricter definition of budget, you can just switch the Blood Crypts out with Guildgates (or basic lands) and the problem is solved.

However, Dragonskull Summit, IMO, is budget frendly, and I suppose if you remove 4x Blood Crypt the deck would be considered budget. I just don't like red deck wins....at all. As I said, I am more of a control player.

So now you're changing your complaint. Before you were complaining that budget decks don't exist, and when you're demonstrated wrong, you change your complaint to something else. This is blatant moving the goalposts on your part.

You also say this as if control being hard to do on a budget is something unique to current Standard. When has control ever been a budget deck?

[Squark]

Control has never (in recent memory, that is) been terribly budget friendly. On the topic of budgets and lands: Orzhov is going to be a bit of a blow to your budget, simply because the Innistrad enemy duals are going for ~$10+ at the moment.

Also, I wouldn't dismiss support for gates until, well, you know, GATEcrash comes out.

[Giegue]

Budget control was, IMO, fairly doable before the core set after the scars block. Mono-Black control was doable. It was not as good as blue-based control, but it could be done. It was not totally budget in the traditional sense, but if you ran the Infect variant I'd probably call it a budget deck. Mono-B Infect eventually morphed into a mid-range deck rather then a true control deck, but, for a time, mono-black infect control could do reasonably well, and it's mythics where easy to come by(Nobody really played with Skittles, after all.). Heck one of the most expensive cards in it, Inkmoth Nexus, could be obtained by an event deck.

The main think that makes control un-budget is walkers. Find a control deck that can run without walkers(Like, say, Mono B Infect Control back when it was good) and you can make a budget control deck.

Hence why I proposed challenge to the people in this thread to try and make a budget control deck.

Also, I know about Isolated Chaple. I already said in my first post I'd be forced to sub it for orzhov guildgate. I already have 4x Godless Shrine from the original Guildpact, so instead of 4x Godless Shrine and 4x Isolated Chapel I'd be running 4x Godless Shrine, 4x Orzhov Guildgate.

[Fable Wright]

Oh...I forgot about those two cards. Sorry about that. Either way, though, the gate support is crap. Wizards hyped it up saying it would make these lands matter and ultimately, it doesn't. Their design goal of making them NOT just the old common/uncommon comes into play tapped duals under new names, in my book, has utterly failed. Gatecrash may surprise me, but I'm not getting my hopes up.

You do know that they're plants in the limited format, and that support is likely going to be coming in Dragon's Maze, right?

[Giegue]

I don't pay attention to limited. Never have. I don't like being forced to play a deck I don't want to because of luck, so limited formats never had any kind of appeal to me. Usually I just sign up, get free cards and drop at such events. So if the gates are awesome in limited then I suppose I will give them that. They are not BAD lands, and have their place. That place just isn't standard, unless your running some budget form of control or controlling combo.

As for my dislike of red deck wins, I just am better at certain styles then others. I excel at knowing what to neutralize and how to mess with my opponent, but am poor when it comes to maximizing the potential of my creatures. I am just better at reacting then I am acting, and when I have tried to play aggro in the past I usually ended up being very inefficient at it, which when playing aggro can be a death sentience against certain decks.

That, and I just prefer control. I can't stand not being able to remove opposing creatures. I'm like a Timmy for creature destruction. Timmy REALLY enjoys smashing people with big creatures. I REALLY enjoy killing my opponents creatures. It's odd, but I just like being able to kill all my opponent's stuff, and I collect mass board-wipe cards as a result.

[Squark]

Eh, I wouldn't have called the MBC that I was running at the end of scars (I've been switching between MBC and some sort of multi-color control deck since Shards block rotated out, myself) really budget. To be honest, I felt that the last control deck I played that I could safely call budget was the Grixis control version I was running during the last days of the Alara Block, and even that had a fairly expensive manabase, and would have been worlds more effective if I'd had access to a planeswalker besides little Jace.

[Fable Wright]

That, and I just prefer control. I can't stand not being able to remove opposing creatures. I'm like a Timmy for creature destruction. Timmy REALLY enjoys smashing people with big creatures. I REALLY enjoy killing my opponents creatures. It's odd, but I just like being able to kill all my opponent's stuff, and I collect mass board-wipe cards as a result.

In that case, your only (semi) decent option is Mono Black Control. It still has some solid cards; Murder, Nighthawk, Mutilate, the different Lilianas, and some powerful finishers like Necropolis Regent, Desecration Demon, and maybe Nocturnus if the Dimir offer up any good Vampires in Gatecrash. It's your best bet for budget, as the constituent cards (minus the Lilianas) aren't that much, and there aren't any dual lands in the deck.

[Giegue]

I suppose. Liliana of the Dark Realms is down to $13.00 and some change, so getting two of her would not be that difficult. Four may be an issue, but I suppose if I just save up I could probably obtain four of her eventually. Is 4x Liliana of the Dark Realms necessary, or is it safe to go down to 2 or 3? The rest of the deck is fairly easy to assemble, and I already have a few mutilates laying around somewhere...

My only gripe is there is no good sample lists for this kind of deck, and I have a tendency to use sample lists as a jumping off point for my own builds. All the sample lists I find use shocks to splash red and/or green while not losing mutilate power(as those shocks are swamps as well as duals). Does anybody have, or know where I can find, a good MBC sample list that does not splash red and/or green?

[LansXero]

2x Cathedral of War
19x Swamp

4x Vampire Nocturnus
4x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Falkenrath Noble
4x Bloodline Keeper
4x Blood Artist

4x Tragic Slip
4x Sign in Blood / Underworld Connections
3x Victim of Night
2x Killing Wave
2x Mutilate
2x Liliana of the Veil
2x Murder

SB:

2x Murder
2x Ultimate Price
4x Duress
2x Apettite for Brains
2x Bloodgift Demon
3x Desacration Demon


That, off the top of my head, wouldnt be too expensive and could do well. Or you could go with more sacrifice/morbid effects to fuel Skirsdaag High Priest (with the obvious sinergy with blood artist).