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2012-07-12, 01:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2007
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- Boston, MA
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
Oh boy, Orks + Dread Mob! Now I can take EVEN MORE GROT TANKS.
...
I just have to build another 20 or 30 of the pesky little things...
And am I the only one who noticed that Deffkoptas in a Dreadmob get Buzzsaws for only 40% of what you pay in Codex: Orks? Goodness, that might make the darn things affordable.
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2012-07-12, 01:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2005
- Gender
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
And here are the psyker updates.
Agree with you on the Blood Angels there Bluntpencil.Princess in the streets.
Princess in the sheets.
Don't touch me I'm royalty.
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2012-07-12, 04:31 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2006
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
And here are the psyker updates.thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2012-07-12, 04:39 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2010
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
So, how crippling would it be to NOT have flyers? I really want to put together a CSM list with Daemons as allies, but neither army gets any fliers (unless I missed something). Would an army like that just get destroyed by an army with flyers, or would it still work?
I'm leaning towards Nurgle, generally, if that helps.Tyger Tyger, burning bright,
In the forests of the night;
What immortal hand or eye,
Could frame thy fearful symmetry?
-excerpt from "The Tyger" by William Blake
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2012-07-12, 05:04 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2007
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- Boston, MA
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
Oh, not at all. Flyers aren't what you need to have--what you need is Flyer Defense. Scratch-build (or buy, if you're boring ) an Aegis with a Quad Gun or something, and you'll be fine.
Personally, I'm just going to field a whole mess of Lootaboys and hide them behind an unarmed Aegis and just Go To Ground any time they're legitimately threatened (2+ Cover, whee!). Three dozen Snap Shots, all day erry day.
Speaking of dumb things, does Feel No Pain protect against Perils? If I am remembering correctly, PotW ignores all armor/invul saves, but FNP is specifically identified as "not a type of save". May just have to stick Zogwort in a unit of Nobz/Gitz with a Dok (too bad he can't get a bike...).Last edited by Hootman; 2012-07-12 at 05:05 PM.
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2012-07-12, 06:07 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2008
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- Sweden
- Gender
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
Just tried my first battle with 6:ed and got stomped good by guard. He brought 2 griffons, 1 basilisk and a vendetta to 750 points. Then we rolled Big guns never tire, ouch.
But anyway, I really like the new rules, my librarian was great fun and a Land speeder with two mult-meltas was even funnier (for one round, then it got blown up).
And I have to say, the Vendetta, just bloody amazing with the new rules. It's allways been good, but now, just amazing.
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2012-07-12, 09:02 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2008
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
Nearly everyone is buying/making an Aegis Line, and the people who aren't are only doing so because their group doesn't allow Fortifications - which is totally a fair call, unlike disallowing Allies. But, for most of us who have been playing the game for a while who have a ton of bits, use different things for the Quad Gun.
For example, Eldar players can grab four Starcannons. Although, now, that you need AP2, Eldar might think about using Shuriken Cannons instead. You still use the rules from the book, but, Eldar players wont look like they're bringing along Autocannons.
While we're talking about Eldar; The new rules for Power Weapons specifically say WYSIWYG. If you're the kind of person who is able to and/or would do this; Start re-modelling/bitz-grabbing your Howling Banshees with Power Mauls.
Sure, you're only AP4. But now your 'useless' Banshees are S5, I10, Concussive. You don't really need to be AP2 because you'll be dealing so many wounds - add Doom.
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2012-07-12, 10:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
Please forgive my ignorance but bits grabbing? You can scratch build models? I thought just about everything had to be GW approved unless you are really short on models then proxy.
If any of you wish to follow me my twitter is @RetroGamer1224. I am fun but #NSFW
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2012-07-12, 10:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2008
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- Sweden
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
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2012-07-12, 11:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
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- Somewhere lost in dream.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
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2012-07-13, 06:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- Switzerland
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
If you play at a GW store, they will frown on using models from other companies. I play at a non-GW stop anyway, so nothing is stopping us from using, say, Reaper minis. And I have scratch-built a thing or two.
Resident Vancian Apologist
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2012-07-13, 06:43 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2006
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
And im playing in a private gaming club, so we can use whatever we dam well want to as long as it looks fitting.
While we're talking about Eldar; The new rules for Power Weapons specifically say WYSIWYG. If you're the kind of person who is able to and/or would do this; Start re-modelling/bitz-grabbing your Howling Banshees with Power Mauls.thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2012-07-13, 06:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- Switzerland
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
Yeah. Banshees, specifically, are the Eldar hard counter to marines that come close enough to be fought.
Resident Vancian Apologist
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2012-07-13, 07:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2011
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- Ho Chi Minh City
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
Mathhammer time!
Spoiler
Okay, Howling Banshees attacking with Power Swords vs Power Armour...
100 attacks (4+hit) = 50 hits
50 hits (5+ wounds) = 16.666.... wounds. No saves.
16.67% of attacks will cause an unsaved wound.
With power mauls!
Spoiler100 attacks (4+ hit) = 50 hits
50 hits (3+ wounds) = 33.333.... wounds.
33.33333 wounds (3+ save) = 11.1111... unsaved wounds.
11.11% of attacks wound.
Okay, so against power armour, a slight drop in killing potential.
However, against everything else in the game it rises dramatically. This includes Terminator Armour, Carapace Armour and more.
Comparing to Terminator Armour...
100 attacks (4+hit) = 50 hits
Swords
Spoiler
50 hits (5+ wounds) = 16.666.... wounds.
16.6666.... wounds (2+saves) = 2.77777... unsaved wounds
2.78% of attacks will cause an unsaved wound with power swords.
Mauls
Spoiler
100 attacks (4+ hit) = 50 hits
50 hits (3+ wounds) = 33.333.... wounds.
33.3333 wounds (2+save) = 5.5555 unsaved wounds.
5.6% of attacks will wound with a power maul.
Comparing to Power Armoured bikes....
Swords
Spoiler
100 attacks=50 hits
50 hits= 8.3333 wounds, no saves.
8.33% of attacks wound.
Mauls
Spoiler
100 attacks= 50 hits
50 hits= 25 wounds
25 wounds (3+ saves)= 8.3333333 unsaved wounds.
8.33% of attacks wound vs. T5 3+ armour.
And, more dramatically... versus any Imperial Guard unit.
Swords
Spoiler
100 attacks= 66.6666.... hits
66.66666... hits= 33.33333.... wounds. No saves.
33.33% of attacks will wound against WS 3 Imperial Guard.
Mauls
Spoiler
100 attacks=66.66666.... hits
66.66666 hits= 55.55555..... wounds. No saves.
55.6% of attacks will wound vs. T3 Carapace Armour or worse.
Okay, basically, Howling Banshees are better with power mauls as opposed to power swords against everything except Toughness 4, 3+ Armour, and even then, it's only a small loss. This isn't even factoring in Concussive.
They are immensely better against lighter armour. They are equally good against T5 3+ Armour. They are a little better against Terminators.
However, there is the problem that anyone that models Eldar with blunt, bludgeoning weapons is a complete tool.Last edited by bluntpencil; 2012-07-13 at 07:22 AM.
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2012-07-13, 07:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2011
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- Ho Chi Minh City
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
Thinking about Power Mauls there...
If you were to play a Blood Angels successor, and use Dante as your own Chapter Master (counts as) and remodeled the Axe Mortalis as a mace or such, would that be considered cheesy?
Power Axes suck for Initiative 6 hero types. Power Mauls don't.
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2012-07-13, 08:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
Steam ID: The Great Squark
3ds Friend Code: 4571-1588-1000
Currently Playing: Warhammer 40000, Hades, Stellaris, Warframe
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2012-07-13, 08:50 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2006
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
Okay, basically, Howling Banshees are better with power mauls as opposed to power swords against everything except Toughness 4, 3+ Armour, and even then, it's only a small loss. This isn't even factoring in Concussive.
Also, you didnt figure in the effect of Doom on the enemy, it swings things even more towards the swords in the case of killing marines.thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2012-07-13, 08:57 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2008
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
Not anymore it isn't. Or it shouldn't be if your MG is halfway competitive.
Top armies;
Terminators - any kind. 2+ Armour. While not Terminators, Sanguinary Guard also get a word in here too.
Imperial Guard - T3, no armour.
Plague Marines - T5
However, even with Mauls, Howling Banshees are still not the best choice and you're still better off with 3 units of Fire Dragons, or 2 and a unit of Scorpions. If you really the Banshees, make use of the Allies rules and bring some Incubi instead.
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2012-07-13, 09:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- Switzerland
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
I barely ever see Termies. I see Marines with a unit of termies or two, sure. But mostly I see space wolves, tyranids, necrons, tau and eldar. So, I think if I played Banshees, I'd keep them with swords. I think pretty much everyone here agrees that Marines and IG are boring fluffwise. I think the common wording goes "We already play Fantasy, if we have to play 40k, let's play something that actually looks like SciFi."
Last edited by Eldan; 2012-07-13 at 09:22 AM.
Resident Vancian Apologist
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2012-07-13, 09:26 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2006
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
Not anymore it isn't. Or it shouldn't be if your MG is halfway competitive.
However, even with Mauls, Howling Banshees are still not the best choice and you're still better off with 3 units of Fire Dragons, or 2 and a unit of Scorpions. If you really the Banshees, make use of the Allies rules and bring some Incubi instead.
Anyway, i just realised you made a mistake in the analysis of your mathhammer Bluntpencil, you find that swords have a 16.6% wound rate, while mauls have 11.1%.
You then call it a slight drop in killing potential, when your own numbers show that swords would kill around 50% more marines than mauls wouldthnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2012-07-13, 09:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2012
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
Secondary objectives are quite interesting, I've found. Last game I played, every available capturing unit ended up dying, so the game rested on who could grab the secondary objectives in the time remaining. Bloody Land Raider got Linebreaker for my opponent, and he ended up killing my warlord through the use of the new wound allocation roles and my inability to pass a 2+ look out sir roll.
I could only get first blood, because the pain in the backside Chaos Terminator Lord just would not bloody die, no matter how often I shot it. So overall, something to bear in mind in games that look to run close to a draw."Not trusting me might be the smartest decision you made since getting off of your horse."
Avatar by Ifni, who is rightly awesome.
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2012-07-13, 10:12 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2007
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- In the Playground
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
Secondary objectives are certainly interesting. I had a test game there were my 2+ save, T6 Necron Destroyer lord got killed my a vindicator shell and 3 bolters.
"Oh no, my lord died" suddenly gets combined with "...which gives my opponent First Blood and Warlord Slayer!"
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2012-07-13, 10:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2011
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- Ho Chi Minh City
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
That's a good point, but 150% of 'next to nothing' is still 'next to nothing'.
If you compare that to the 2.78% vs Termies and 5.6% vs Termies, that's 100% difference. Mauls kill double the Terminators. That's a big difference too.
Personally, I find the Guard comparison most interesting.
Yeah, swords are best against T4 3+ armour, but only by a little. Add in concussive... and it gets better. Doom, like you have said, could alter this, but Space Wolves might negate that.
Mauls are better against anything that isn't T4 3+ armour, by quite a bit.
I would say 'check yo metagame' but I won't.
I will, instead, say 'take swords and don't be an ass'.
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2012-07-13, 10:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2011
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- Ho Chi Minh City
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2012-07-13, 11:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
Shuffled things up a little- dropped the second foot slogger unit for a Battle Leader and Thunderwolf with two Fenrisian Wolves to be the hammer to the terminators' anvil. I'm not sure whether it's worth it though, would be nice to have another troops choice, or some Wolf Scouts (woo making Acute Senses useful again!)
I would also really like to put a Master of Runes in there, I really like the look of the Divination discipline. I would really like to take a BA or DA Epistolary though, just so I can put Invisibility on a unit with Storm Caller up.
Still, any comments/criticisms?
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2012-07-13, 12:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
Spoiler
HQ
Njal Stormcaller 270
Terminator Armour
Njal is too pricy, and not assault focused enough to run with the terminators. He belongs with Long Fangs
Wolf Guard Battle Leader 170
Thunderwolf Mount, Frost Blade
Saga of the Beastslayer, 2 Fenrisian Wolves
I'd replace him with a cheaper Rune Priest as a Divination user, or a second Living Lightning blaster with saga of the beastslayer
Elites
5 Wolf Guard 420
Arjac Rockfist
Terminator Armour, Combi-Melta
Terminator Armour, Wolf Claw x2
Terminator Armour, Storm Shield
Terminator Armour, Assault Cannon
Drop Pod
Not nearly enough combi-weapons, in my opinion. Also, I'd consider adding a few power armored guys and breaking them off into the melta-toting squads, because those rhinos are not going to last. And even if they do, a Combi-melta wolf guard is usually better than a second special weapon. And Njal has no business being with these guys.
Troops
10 Grey Hunters 160
Plasmagun x2
Fine, although I think you might want another squad
10 Grey Hunters 190
Meltagun x2
Rhino
10 Grey Hunters 190
Meltagun x2
Rhino
As a frontline squad, these need wolf guard, and probably some other upgrades to. With only 2 rhinos... Just ditch the rhinos all together. Odds are, they're going to be wrecked the first turn anyway.
Fast Attack
Thunderwolf 55
Meltabombs
Lone thunderwolf is not going to do a whole lot. I'd drop it for wolf guard elsewhere
Heavy Support
Long Fangs 115
4x Missile Launcher
Long Fangs 115
4x Missile Launcher
Long Fangs 115
4x Missile Launcher
Good, but you know you can go 5 missile launchers to a squad, right?
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1795 PointsSteam ID: The Great Squark
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Currently Playing: Warhammer 40000, Hades, Stellaris, Warframe
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2012-07-13, 12:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
So... probably cutting the thunderwolf dudes and swapping the Rhino squads for more Plasma footsloggers gives me ~290 points to spend (or 130 if I buy a 4th plas-squad). If I add in a few more combi-weapons to the wolf guard and take the extra missile launchers for Long Fangs, I might be able to find enough points for a multi-melta landspeeder.. or I could drop Njal for a normal rune priest or two and reshuffle some more.
Last edited by Gauntlet; 2012-07-13 at 12:25 PM.
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2012-07-13, 01:56 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2006
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
That's a good point, but 150% of 'next to nothing' is still 'next to nothing'.
And i while i agree on that mauls are better against terminators, then i dont think it matters due to the simple reason of them not being good enough to win the combat, and if thats the case, why bother then?
I would say 'check yo metagame' but I won't.
I will, instead, say 'take swords and don't be an ass'.
Anyway, how does wound allocation with mixed AP values work now, like if fx you have rending attacks?Last edited by lord_khaine; 2012-07-13 at 01:56 PM.
thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2012-07-13, 02:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2010
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- Mt. Ebott
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
Does anyone have a good Noise marine list as a parent army for a Daemon army? I've been meaning to try out the whole ally system especially with battle brothers.
“I’m a Terrorist not an idiot.” - Me
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2012-07-13, 02:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2006
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- Indiana
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
The multi-melta land speeder will have the same problem as the Rhinos only more so because there's only one of it. And without melta or lascannons, how will you deal with AV14?
I have observed Grey Hunters with meltaguns on foot doing very well for themselves. The Rhinos can go away, but keep the meltaguns. And take Thunderwolves (because they win).
Alternatively:
Logan Grimnar
Wolf Guard
-Arjac
-Whatever else you want
Long Fangs
-4 multimeltas
-Drop pod
Stick Arjac and Logan with the Long Fangs in the drop pod, make them Relentless, blow up any two tanks of your choice turn 1, and kick the hell out of anything your opponent has that tries to do anything about it. A Rune Priest also in the drop pod is optional but very, very lulzy."Courage is the complement of fear. A fearless man cannot be courageous. He is also a fool." -- Robert Heinlein