Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

[Gauntlet]

The multi-melta land speeder will have the same problem as the Rhinos only more so because there's only one of it. And without melta or lascannons, how will you deal with AV14?

I have observed Grey Hunters with meltaguns on foot doing very well for themselves. The Rhinos can go away, but keep the meltaguns. And take Thunderwolves (because they win).

Alternatively:

Logan Grimnar

Wolf Guard
-Arjac
-Whatever else you want

Long Fangs
-4 multimeltas
-Drop pod

Stick Arjac and Logan with the Long Fangs in the drop pod, make them Relentless, blow up any two tanks of your choice turn 1, and kick the hell out of anything your opponent has that tries to do anything about it. A Rune Priest also in the drop pod is optional but very, very lulzy.

That.. actually looks pretty terrifying. I may have to try that. As far as dealing with AV14 goes, I would still have the combi-meltas and Arjac to pop tanks with from the drop pod. You're right that this might not be enough though.

I guess I should probably put a Rune Priest in with the pod, since putting my psyker defense right in the middle of the opposing army is exactly what I want to be doing. Only problem is I can't give him terminator armour without dropping some Long Fangs.

Potential changes:

Out:
Njal 270
Battle Leader 170
Wolf Guard (except Arjac) 232
Rhino/Melta Squads 380
Thunderwolf 55
---


In:
Logan 275
Rune Priest 100
Plasma Squads 320
Long Fang drop pod 35

Leaves me with 377 points to play with, some of which I would need to spend to bring Arjac's wolf guard up to 3+ members, and maybe take some Thunderwolves. If I was to take more Wolf Guard and distribute them among the two remaining Long Fangs missile squads, would those units then be able to capture objectives? I can't tell from the rulebook and can't find it in the FAQ

[Renegade Paladin]

No. Wolf Guard split off to become squad leaders become the type of their new squad. So even without Logan a Wolf Guard who led a pack of Grey Hunters but had his squad shot away from him could still score, while even with Logan a Wolf Guard leading Long Fangs isn't scoring. Unless you're playing Big Guns Never Tire, in which case he is.

At any rate, the Loganbomb I described above is only half the tactic. BoSheck (resident Wolf player around here) uses it and a unit of Thunderwolves. The bomb comes down turn 1, the Thunderwolves bail it out turn 2. Otherwise, even with the combat prowess of Grimnar and the Rockfist, that squad is on a suicide run, and is very, very expensive for a throwaway unit. But that would require rebuilding your entire list.

[BoSheck]

I'm fairly confident in my wolf-fu, so let me offer my own take.

HQ

Spoiler

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Njal Stormcaller 270
Terminator Armour
I'm a Njal fan. He offers a lot, and Wolves have a great many powers that are just useful all the time, but are devastating when they are (see: murderous hurricane, tempest's wrath). Cancelling enemy psychic tests on a 3+ is just brutal, also. Having said that, he's fairly flimsy, and not a front liner, but has some potential to destroy tacitcals, remember that well, I'd stick him with the plasma team, unless they're a sacrificial unit that mission.
Wolf Guard Battle Leader 170
Thunderwolf Mount, Frost Blade
Saga of the Beastslayer, 2 Fenrisian Wolves
I can't stress enough, if you guys are taking Thunderlords, Wolf Claws are the way to go. Gj on keeping the bullet soaking pups, I anticipate that even with the new wound allocation rules, they'll be even more useful. This guy needs a stormshield or he's not worth taking.
Elites
5 Wolf Guard 420
Arjac Rockfist
Terminator Armour, Combi-Melta
Terminator Armour, Wolf Claw x2
Terminator Armour, Storm Shield
Terminator Armour, Assault Cannon
Drop Pod
[/b] I don't usually tell people something is terrible, but double wolfclaw wolfguard is just too many points for what could be something way better. Space wolves spams terminators with special weapons in 5 man wolf guard squads very well--but the point cost for us to get proper assault termies is just backbreaking.[/b]
Troops
10 Grey Hunters 160
Plasmagun x2

10 Grey Hunters 190
Meltagun x2
Rhino

10 Grey Hunters 190
Meltagun x2
Rhino

Hey, Grey Hunters are still good. Moving along.
Fast Attack

Thunderwolf 55
Meltabombs
You need two, one with a storm shield, to make this work. The lord goes with them, and splits off to write his own saga, when the time for assault comes.

Heavy Support
Long Fangs 115
4x Missile Launcher

Long Fangs 115
4x Missile Launcher

Long Fangs 115
4x Missile Launcher

Yep. The backbone of any wolf army. If your T/O is giving you Flak Missiles...fliers will crumple before you. I look forward to the White Dwarf that lets us buy them so I don't have to retire my wolves, or buy them dirty, dirty allies.
----
1795 Points

So, while maintaining the core of your list, let us come up with something similar, but perhaps a bit more efficient

Spoiler

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Njal Stormcaller 270
Terminator Armour

Elites
5 Wolf Guard 190
4x Combi-Melta/bolt pistol
Terminator Armour, Assault Cannon
Drop Pod

5 Wolf Guard 190
4x Combi-Melta/bolt pistol
Terminator Armour, Assault Cannon
Drop Pod

Troops
10 Grey Hunters 160
Plasmagun x2

10 Grey Hunters 160
Plasmagun x2

10 Grey Hunters 190
Meltagun x2
Rhino

10 Grey Hunters 190
Meltagun x2
Rhino

Heavy Support
Long Fangs 115
4x Missile Launcher

Long Fangs 115
4x Missile Launcher

Long Fangs 115
4x Missile Launcher

That list has 155 points left until 1850. If you want to bring a cavalry unit:
Iron Priest 155
Thunderwolf Mount
4 Cyberwolves
I feel like the list doesn't have enough barkbarks to make him work, but man he can do some pretty heavy lifting. Obviously he dedicates himself to tank hunting.

Otherwise, 10 more grey hunters with 2x meltaguns is pretty good, as is putting more units in drop pods and rhinos, so you can manage exactly what comes down when more easily. I could see upgrading a few of those combi-wolf guard to terminators for survivability, too, or buying another vanilla rune priest. The second pod could easily be plasma but...melta good. A lot of ways you could go with it, really. Just wanted to offer some suggestions without tearing your list apart.

[Gauntlet]

I like the look of that Iron Priest unit, also seems surprisingly cheap. Incidentally, the list I'm building is for 1800, not 1850 so I don't quite have enough for it.
I don't like running an even number of Drop pods. It seems like a waste. It's a real pity I can't give Long Fangs heavy flamers, because that would make for a very interesting unit to roll out of a drop pod with.
I am becoming increasingly tempted to just take double Plasma grey hunters everywhere. They seem like a unit that could deal with most everything, with the added bonus of being scoring, not particularly close range and a good wound battery for the wolf guard and characters.
It looks to me like an effective list would be just:
-Melta in a drop pod with character(s)
-Fill heavy support slots with long fangs
-Killy unit (thunderwolves I guess)
-Fill rest of points with Plasma hunters.

Anyone seeing any weaknesses I'm missing? I guess I need some psyker defense somewhere which limits my character choices.

[bluntpencil]

Space Wolves are pretty awesome at outflanking now, right?

Does that make Wolf Scouts better, if they're packing melta? Or is it not really worth it?

Do you give outflank to a unit you join, if you have it?

I can see Wolf Guard Battle Leaders (on Thunderwolves) with Saga of the Hunter doing damage here, but is it necessary?

[Cheesegear]

Does anyone have a good Noise marine list as a parent army for a Daemon army? I've been meaning to try out the whole ally system especially with battle brothers.

Well, the problem is that Slaanesh gains nothing from Daemons. But I'll have a go. The second problem; Noise Marines are stupidly expensive. The third problem is that you don't specify how many points you need and when you want Allies you're getting into higher points territory.

Spoiler

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Sorcerer - 150 Points
Mark of Slaanesh, Lash of Slaanesh, Wings, Melta Bombs

Sorcerer - 150 Points
Mark of Slaanesh, Lash of Slaanesh, Wings, Melta Bombs

Noise Marines (x5) - 255 Points
Blast Master
Noise Champion; Power Weapon, Doom Siren
+ Rhino; Combi-Melta

Noise Marines (x5) - 255 Points
Blast Master
Noise Champion; Power Weapon, Doom Siren
+ Rhino; Combi-Melta

Noise Marines (x5) - 220 Points
Noise Champion; Power Weapon, Doom Siren, Melta Bombs
+ Rhino; Combi-Melta

Havocs (x5) - 155 Points
x4 Autocannons

Masque - 100 Points
Fiends of Slaanesh (x6) - 180 Points
Daemonettes (x5) - 70 Points

Daemon Prince - 215 Points
Flight, Mark of Slaanesh, Aura of Acquiescence
Pavane of Slaanesh, Breath of Chaos

Total: 1750 Points

Noise Marines are really expensive.
The goal is to put Masque on the board and rip things out of cover, and take them away from any manned emplacements (AAAEGIIIS). If somebody puts a couple of tanks with AV14 on the board, you're in trouble. If there's a Flyer on the board, shoot it with the Autocannon Havocs, if somebody puts multiple Fliers on the board...Chaos Marines are in trouble no matter what list you build.

[Voidhawk]

Good News Everyone!

Another new flyer has been created, and it's an Imperial one no less!

Just what the game needs...

[Eldan]

Oh goodie! The Guard really needs more different kinds of hardware!

I'm still wondering how these things are supposed to fly. They look so... unfly-y-

[Cheesegear]

I'm still wondering how these things are supposed to fly. They look so... unfly-y-

Well, the big turbine-jets on the wings for starters. But, I really think that due to the size of the some of the IG Aircraft, more of them need the Vulture turbine.

As far as the Avenger itself and how it flies...I don't understand how down-sloping wings helps, I assume it would have something to do with turning speeds, but my aerodynamics knowledge is sketchy at best.

[Forrestfire]

Well, you strap a big enough engine to something...

I don't know much about aerodynamics, but I do know that when I build paper airplanes, angling the wings concave like that often made them fly further. Take from that what you will.

[Voidhawk]

Well, it could be worse. It could be the Space-potato. *shudder*

[Tychris1]

/facepalm Yeah I should have mentioned the points list. I would hope for 1,500 point list. And not entirely noise marine, just Slaanesh based, I'd prefer Noise Marines though. Your list is very good though and I plan on testing it out (Despite the angered words of my friend). Don't you need to take a troops choice for allies?

[Cheesegear]

Don't you need to take a troops choice for allies?

You mean the Daemonettes?

I also occurs to me that should you choose to do so, chaining Pavanes and Lashes is pretty hilarious. You can move a unit halfway down the board should you choose to do so.

[Tychris1]

Urgh, They were all under the Masque so I just glossed them over as wargear and upgrades. heh.

[BoSheck]

I like the look of that Iron Priest unit, also seems surprisingly cheap. Incidentally, the list I'm building is for 1800, not 1850 so I don't quite have enough for it.
I don't like running an even number of Drop pods. It seems like a waste. It's a real pity I can't give Long Fangs heavy flamers, because that would make for a very interesting unit to roll out of a drop pod with.
I am becoming increasingly tempted to just take double Plasma grey hunters everywhere. They seem like a unit that could deal with most everything, with the added bonus of being scoring, not particularly close range and a good wound battery for the wolf guard and characters.
It looks to me like an effective list would be just:
-Melta in a drop pod with character(s)
-Fill heavy support slots with long fangs
-Killy unit (thunderwolves I guess)
-Fill rest of points with Plasma hunters.

Anyone seeing any weaknesses I'm missing? I guess I need some psyker defense somewhere which limits my character choices.

Yeah, Iron priest plus Cyberwolves (t5! 4+!) is pretty good.

Running two pods isn't too outlandish. You can dedicate one to the long fangs, or a GH unit, and then NOT start them in it. That lets you decide if your meltacide unit actually has something they want to suicide on, or wait until turn 2-3. You use the empty pod to make people rageface in their movement phase.

Sorry about the discrepancy in points. That original list I had should be like 55 short, which is easy enough to fill with wargear (like fists or something on the AC wolfguard). But whatever you do, you're going to want something to stop land raiders. Was just trying to preserve the general feel of your list.

Using shock trooper long fangs with a CC element, followed by a fast killy unit is usually my most effective wolf tactic. It takes a little learning to figure out just how big a bite you can take with certain units, but the initial disabling, followed by the close combat and long fang support is a very effective mesh.

[Bavarian itP]

Good News Everyone!

Another new flyer has been created, and it's an Imperial one no less!

Just what the game needs...

"Avenger Bolt Cannon"?

How creative.

[Cheesegear]

How creative.

Funny thing is, the Avenger Bolt Cannon isn't mounted on the Imperial Guard Thunderbolt.

[Bavarian itP]

Funny thing is, the Avenger Bolt Cannon isn't mounted on the Imperial Guard Thunderbolt.

I said it was creative, didn't I

[iyaerP]

Well, it could be worse. It could be the Space-potato. *shudder*

I really don't get why everyone hates on that thing. Due to the construction, it actually has a much better chance of being to hover and do VTOL than either of the guard aircraft. The only problem that the talon has is that the turbines are too far aft, so the front will fall forward, and Mr Space Marine pilot gets to fly around shooting only what is directly below him.

The "Space Potato" is clearly a wannabe cobra/apache hellicoptor gunship. Just like the new thing wants to be an A10. Yeah, they go overboard with it, but it is 40K. That is what they do.

[Zorg]

As far as the Avenger itself and how it flies...I don't understand how down-sloping wings helps, I assume it would have something to do with turning speeds, but my aerodynamics knowledge is sketchy at best.

The inverted gull wing is used to give a prop plane a higher ground clearance without needing long, breakable landing gear. This is most notable on the Vought F4U Corsair, which had one of the largest props of any US fighter and was designed to be carrier based.
It also allows the plane to carry a larger bomb load under the centreline and wing roots, such as the done on the JU-87 Stuka.

Aerodynamically they're not that great, giving the plane a higher, harder stall speed.



Edit: From the BoLS lounge:

Just had a quick look while at open day. 150 pts - 2 las cannons , heavy stubber + avenger bolt cannon st6 ap3 heavy 7.CANNOT add punisher cannons but can Multi lasers , missile launchers or autocannons. Can have bombs as well as FW flyer upgrades.

[LeSwordfish]

All i can think from those pictures is "Dont rest that plane on the wings. That doesnt look a very solid connection. Those wings are going to come off."

[Voidhawk]

Okay, I'm at the end of my tether. I've been reading the Big Black Book back and forth for 2 weeks now, scanning chat on websites, and watching the GW site like a hawk for an FAQ. So I'm just going to come out and ask:

HOW THE HELL DO CHARIOTS WORK?!

It's been driving me completely nuts. I'd really like to use my Command Barge in games soon, but I would rather not have to pause the first time it assaults to discuss what it can and can't do. My main issues are:

1) Can models attacked by the command barge attack the barge itself, or only the rider?
2) If they can, do they strike Front Armour like a walker, or Rear Armour like normal vehicles?
3) Can it be locked in combat like a walker, or can it simply drive away like any other vehicle?

My current "working" opinion is 1) the barge can be attacked, 2) it's attacked at front armour, 3) it can be locked, but only if it's not a skimmer and the enemy can't fly. But then again I own one, so my opinion is liable to bias.

So, what do you guys think?

[The_Final_Stand]

Well, as an answer to question 3, it says that since it's a vehicle, it (and its rider) can't be locked in combat. (Fighting from a Chariot)

With regards to 1, it says that the crew of the chariot can't be targeted separately, implying that the chariot itself can be attacked. (Crew)

With 2, I'd guess that since it doesn't specify otherwise, the chariot still gets hit on the rear armour if it's being targeted. (Personal opinion)

[evisiron]

1) Can models attacked by the command barge attack the barge itself, or only the rider?
2) If they can, do they strike Front Armour like a walker, or Rear Armour like normal vehicles?
3) Can it be locked in combat like a walker, or can it simply drive away like any other vehicle?

I've been pondering the same thing, and reached the conclusion that until it's FAQ-ed all we can sensibly do is rigidly apply the transport vehicle rules.
So,
1. Nothing says the chariots stops being in base to base, so attackers can strike either of them. It would have been so easy for them to end the rider in base to base sentence with "...instead of the chariot" or "...in addition to the chariot".

2. Rear armour until told otherwise.

3. It specifically says the chariot nor the rider are locked in combat.

The other big one is what happens if the chariot is destroyed before the rider attacks. The transport rules have embarked units deploy without becoming locked in combat, so this seems to be the logical way to go (no matter how ticked off my Necron Lord will be when tossed back out of combat before his initiative step).

[Sam cw]

First, context and somewhat long winded backstory:

So I recently found out that someone at my FLGS is selling his Grey Knights and I thought I'd take him up on it. Thing is, he said someone else has showed interest, so I may have some competition for them. I'm really only looking into GK as allies for my Tau, so I don't really need them all. Because of that, I'm hoping to be able to cut a deal with the other interested party to split the lot, where I just take the stuff I really want and let him buy the rest.

The units I want to get are two full squads of Strike Knights to provide an objective seizure and counter-assault element that Tau are sorely lacking in and a Stormraven to serve as an air superiority fighter and supplementary heavy AT. Oh, and a cheapo Inquisitor to fill the HQ slot (I already have a single GK Termie that I can use if I want a bigger HQ).

While the above stuff comes first, if its possible, I'd like to get enough other units to give me some flexibility in my allies options or try playing GKs as a small stand alone army. To that end, what would you recommend I look for to use as Elites and Heavy Support? Some Termies seem like a good idea for Elites, as I could use them as Paladins or Troop Termies and upgrade one of the Strike Knight Squads to something else (like Purifiers). I'm not so sure what to get for HS though.

My first plan before this came up was to build a "counts as" GK force out of Legos, and that's still plan B. I say this because Legos will probably work best with vehicles and especially big and blocky ones, so it would probably be best to get the actual models for other things.

[Hawkfrost000]

Draigo's Mighty Dozen Sixteen! Draft Two

Spoiler

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Draigo 275

5 Paladins
MC Psycannon and Halbeard
Psycannon and Halbeard
2x Deamonhammer
Warding Stave
340


5 Paladins
MC Psycannon and Halbeard
Psycannon and Halbeard
2x Deamonhammer
Warding Stave
340


5 Paladins
MC Psycannon and Halbeard
Psycannon and Halbeard
2x Deamonhammer
Warding Stave
340

Stormraven
Twin Linked Multi-Melta
Twin Linked Lascannon
205

1500

2 squads and draigo deploy on the table, one squad says in the 'raven.

Thoughts?

DM

[iyaerP]

I get the feeling that a single plasma cannon will kill a significant portion of your army every turn. And that you simply don't have enough bodies to matter.

[Cheesegear]

2 squads and draigo deploy on the table, one squad says in the 'raven.

Flyers are rubbish as Transports. The Stormraven is now a gunboat. Not the same Transport that it used to be.

If you're using the Stormraven as a Gunboat, it will be incredibly difficult to shoot down, and terrible as a transport because all the Paladins will die when the 'Raven dies. Due to the way 'Flyer Defense' works, the only good way to use a Flyer is as a Flyer.

If you're using the 'Raven in Hover mode, it will still be a rubbish transport (*grumble, grumble, 6" move, grumble, grumble*), but when it does get shot down - and it will - your Paladins inside don't go up in smoke.

Yes, you were totally correct, Paladins are really good. But, Draigowing/All-Paladins is not good. It's too expensive, and Stormravens don't work like they're supposed to - but neither do Vendettas, but then they never did.

Grey Knight Strengths;
Purifiers
Strike Knights
Purgation Squads

The way to beat Flyers with Grey Knights is to spam Psycannons (like you weren't doing that already?), and grab Divination, and just take the Primaris Power.

Paying ~350 points for 10 Wounds sounds good, except they've only got the combat capability of 5 models. And now that Heavy S8+ weapons can be fired on the move (with a few easily-accessible ways to mitigate the downside), Paladin-Only armies take it in the face.

Long story short, Draigowing is a 5th Edition army.

[Hootman]

Woo! First full game of 6th Edition today, and it was pretty fantastic for me.

3000 points, Orks vs Nids, both of us used 2 FOC's and no Allies (obviously, Nids can't), and I only brought one Aegis that, because of the random nature of our deployment (custom scenario for the event), I managed to get one unit behind on the first turn, and never needed again.

Throughout all of the deployment phase, things were looking grim. It was a deployment type invented for Fantasy, so everything was in charge range of something in a way that makes both Orks AND Nids broken as all get-out. My friend had gotten the roll for first turn, and it looked like I was going to lose at least half my units before I even got to play.....

...And then I stole the Initiative, and almost wiped him off the board on Turn 1. It was a glorious battle, though I did feel bad about stomping him so thoroughly RIGHT up until Turn 3, when the Doom of Malantai came down and vaporized a squad of Lootas AND my previously unwoundable Nob Bikerz. Between that blast and the Swarmlord just not giving ANY damns, I had to go to Turn 5 to finally bring him down.

Summary:
1) Nob Bikerz are probably exactly as powerful as I want them to be, but can't deal with S10 Large Blasts, so Vindicators (and Annialator Barges, maybe??) will ruin their day forever.

2) Biomancy Powers, specifically Iron Arm, are INSANELY GOOD on the biggest Tyranid Gribblies. S9 T9 Swarmlord was almost untouchable (only 2+ Poison Zogwort could get anything on him until I brought in TWO Warbosses). It took until my bro's luck rolling 3's ran out, and Swarmy came down to the more reasonable T7.

3) Lootas in groups of about 10 models are pretty awesome.

4) My Biker Boss ALMOST flattened the Swarmlord at the cost of his own life, but the Swarmlord had JUST used Life Leech to regain a wound (which he stole from my Boss, the jerk), and the monster survived. So...I poured my Lootas into him until he fell over.

5) Shoota Boyz are still amazing. That one Rokkit Boy who keeps Instagibbing the Doom of Malantai needs a name, or something. Thinking of putting "DOOM OF DOOM *happy ork face* " on the sides of his rokkit.

[Cheesegear]

1) Nob Bikerz are probably exactly as powerful as I want them to be, but can't deal with S10 Large Blasts, so Vindicators (and Annialator Barges, maybe??) will ruin their day forever.

Neither can a lot of things. So you're not alone there. Did you use the 'Unit full of Characters' trick?

Biomancy Powers, specifically Iron Arm, are INSANELY GOOD on the biggest Tyranid Gribblies. S9 T9 Swarmlord was almost untouchable (only 2+ Poison Zogwort could get anything on him until I brought in TWO Warbosses).

Orks have the most trouble dealing with that kind of thing since they don't have any reliable ranged weapons over S7, and S9+ is only found on a Warboss which means Assaulting Swarmlord which is kind of exactly what he wants you to do.

Did you bring any of the Ork Flyers? Those things can be brutal - especially against 'Nids.