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  1. - Top - End - #331
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyntonian View Post
    Is this Eldar-specific, or more general? Because Podding in a unit of Grey Hunters/Long Fangs is pretty effective against a big ol' squad of Tau/Tanks, from what I've seen (1 game, but still).
    I think in general its a bad idea. You know how Cheese is always going on about RanDumb? Well thats deep striking in spades.
    Sometimes you really want them in right away and they don't show up until turn 4 and sometimes you want them to wait a bit for things to clear up and they show up turn 2. Then you have to find a good place for them. Anywhere close to the enemy, especially early on in the game, and they'll be the primary target for 2/3 of the enemy forces because they don't have anything else to even shoot at. You can't protect yourself with close combat, and most units aren't going to kill too much in 1 turn of shooting. Even with something like plasma you might kill 1 vehicle unless they are in a squadron (but thats why no one ever runs vehicles in squadrons) but short of a Land Raider most vehicles are considerable less expensive then most squads that are going to deep strike in, your best hope is to make some other expensive squad walk. It might be effective against enemy death star units, but they are generally in a vehicle where they are safe from your meltas until the vehicle is destroyed or they can easily be protected by having the rest of the enemy around, and its one of the reasons I never run death stars, its too easy for the enemy to deal with 1 expensive unit.

    Thats even assuming you can find a good spot to land. Using normal terrain deployment there aren't too many open spots to safely land, without a drop pod. And finding an open spot, and not drifting off of it too far, close to that juicy target is even less common, especially when your opponent happens to know you have that unit waiting in reserves just for that job.

    I remember a game against Chaos Daemons where I went first and with my speed I was able to put a unit in virtually every reasonable spot on the map to deep strike into. Even if they did land and wipe out the unit I had there in the shooting phase it was a cheap unit anyway. I forced them into a lot of risky deep strikes and killed off a few that way and the rest were forced into poor positions where they were easily handled. And that was first turn before they even had the chance to get a single unit on the field.

    Of course its a bit better now with reserves being more reliable and the deep strike mishaps being less bad. And some armies can do first turn deep strikes which avoids some of the issues.

  2. - Top - End - #332
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    From the few times I've played against them, apparently a complete inability to deal with mech.
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  3. - Top - End - #333
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Hootman does point out a few issues that nids had/have and how the edition swap helped/hurt. I have a very active nid player in my meta and he tends to do well. For reference I have a very marine heavy meta with a few eldar/dark eldar players, the IG players who recently left, 3 necron players, and my Tau.

    He uses Yrmgarl genestealers to good effect as well as a swarmlord, 2 trygons and a tervigon in addition to his 2 big broods of gaunts (one of each type). The MCs were good anti-vehicle with rear shots and 2d6+str vs. vehicles with the MCs in 5th helped a LOT in cracking stuff. His Yrmgarl were good against infantry with their morphing/rending and the gaunts could shoot out termies with volume fire or just tie up a nasty unit if he needed to.

    Several parts of that have changed in 6th (notably the 2d6+str to pen) but MCs are still amazing at killing terminators and can hit vehicles MUCH more reliably with str 10. Gaunts and genestealers can still do their job and they have access to some VERY nice psychic powers across a LOT of their units.

    Nids have a fair number of issues but they are not "unplayably horrible", that is a distinction that I don't think exists in the game really (barring the rages when our deathwing player stomps me and makes me cuss the new wound allocation rules by running melta AROUND my shield drones on my suit teams). I do believe that they should be on the list to be given a new codex but chaos, Tau, and Eldar should be addressed first for their much greater difficulties in the current edition and metagame.
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  4. - Top - End - #334
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Yeah... having re-read my codex, the utter lack of anti-vehicle really struck me. As did the lack of the option to have an infantry scale HQ choice - which ruined my initial plans for an army of Genestealers and Broodlords (I could have sworn they were HQ, rather than squad leaders).

    Mycetic spores are there, I suppose, as an option. Stick a Hive Tyrant with Hive Commander in one, have all your reserves show up on a 2+, and take advantage of the fact that you can fit 20 strong units in them as well as the Monstrous Creatures. Though the lack of an easy way to model them is a pain.

    And... I can't really think of any damn way to deal with flyers effectively.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Gauntlet View Post
    I agree I should find space for a Power Fist in the thunderwolf squad, maybe swap out the Frost Blade for one.
    Only one Thunderwolf rider gets to take a special close combat weapon, actually, so just swap the frost blade for a powerfist. It's the same points cost, even.

    Just an addendum to Erloas's comments on deep striking; This is deep striking in general; If your army can change some of those issues, it becomes more reliable. For instance, Drop pods only enter via deep strike, but because they don't mishap when they scatter onto something, and half (rounded up!) come in on the first turn, Drop pods are much more practical, whether you're just dropping a single suicide dreadnaught or group of sternguard (Both of which are units which actually can kill enough stuff to make up for their cost with only a single turn of shooting. Suicide Sternguard in particular are very, very popular among Codex: Space Marine armies), or an entire army (Drop pod space wolf lists are pretty strong, in no small part because Space Wolves are as happy being assaulted as they are assaulting, thanks to counter attack and overwatch)
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Maugan Ra View Post
    Mycetic spores are there, I suppose, as an option. Stick a Hive Tyrant with Hive Commander in one, have all your reserves show up on a 2+, and take advantage of the fact that you can fit 20 strong units in them as well as the Monstrous Creatures. Though the lack of an easy way to model them is a pain.
    The Tyranid player that I roflstomped so badly he quit the game on the spot used an old tennis ball that had been run over by a car for his. He painted it up, put some bits crawling out of the crack, and there you go. Looked great.

    But he then relied on the Doom of Nothing In Particular as the mainstay of his army, and it didn't go well.
    Last edited by Renegade Paladin; 2012-07-18 at 07:16 PM.
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  7. - Top - End - #337
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Sorry for all the questions (and I'm especially sorry if I'm coming off as obnoxious; I just really want to make this list as effective as I can within the confines of the concept, and it's hard to know what I'm doing with no play experience).

    Quote Originally Posted by Squark View Post
    Aegis Defense Lines can probably handle one flier. The problem is if you're up against Necrons or Guard, you can be looking at 6+ fliers. The Quad gun might take down 1 a turn if you're lucky. (If it doesn't use evasive manuvers, on average a quad gun inflicts 2 hull points of damage on a Storm Talon or a Night/Death Scythe, which, coupled with a roll or two on the damage table, stands a good chance of taking it out. But Evasive Manuvers, or a Valkyrie or Stormraven's higher armor value lower your chances considerably. And as Cheasegear will be quick to tell you, dice almost never perform at an average level)
    So nothing short of a Divination Librarian can help me with flyers and I shouldn't take one of them because they don't do well in Purifier-heavy armies? Or am I even wrong about that? Are Divination Librarians + Psycannons decent flyer defense (I'm not talking "no fly zone" here, I mean "eh, 2 or 3 flyers aren't much of a problem")? Should I just give up on countering flyers altogether?

    And I'm still not sure why you suggested an Exorcist instead of a PsyfleDread. They cost the same points, and the Dread gets slightly more shots on average (as well as rerolls on a miss). Or is the greater AP on the Exorcist better? Come to think of it, does anything in the game even have an armor save of 1? That would mean they automatically save from all wounds that allow armor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hootman View Post
    Pretty much, yes. S7 Rending solves a LOT of problems. Anything you would be able to solve with meltas can instead be solved with one of the following:

    1) Insane volume of S7 Rending. Auto-glances AV14 on a Rend, and if you pen, you get a +1 to damage because of AP2.
    2) Liberal application of S10 Daemonhammers. Hammerhand's kind of OP, as it apparently increases your base strength.

    However, if you would like to ditch the Exorcist, a squad of 5 Multimelta Retributors in a Rhino is roughly the same price.

    The Seraphim are there to provide a bodyguard to Celestine, who will otherwise spend the entire game getting Instant Death'd from across the board. I know I'd throw a little plasma her way once she came into range--S7 AP2 settles a lot of T3 Characters' hash, regardless of any resurrection special rules they may have. You're welcome to remove them, I just thought they might come in handy, what with having Hit & Run.
    Then bye bye melta. Would it be possible to just have the Battle Sisters be Celestine's bodyguards? I don't think LOS would work while the sisters are in a vehicle, but Celestine does get up with d3 wounds, and once they disembark, they could take hits for her (and there would be more of them to do it). Or is this a bad idea?

    Alternatively, could I use Seraphim but just not take the flamers (40 points for template weapons when I've already got so many seems unnecessary)? Are they still viable without those?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Quote Originally Posted by thereaper View Post
    So nothing short of a Divination Librarian can help me with flyers and I shouldn't take one of them because they don't do well in Purifier-heavy armies?
    I'm just always under the impression that GK Librarians are over-costed (but they're ML2 and have Terminator Armour I hear you cry? But you don't buy Librarians for that...). The big issue facing Librarians is that Inquisitors can also take Divination and auto-pick the Primaris (or roll 1 or 3) for 50 points, plus upgrades. And Coteaz can 'do his thing' for only 100 points and still be the same psychic equivalent of the Librarian.

    Or am I even wrong about that? Are Divination Librarians + Psycannons decent flyer defense (I'm not talking "no fly zone" here, I mean "eh, 2 or 3 flyers aren't much of a problem")? Should I just give up on countering flyers altogether?
    No. Yes. Hell no.

    Come to think of it, does anything in the game even have an armor save of 1?
    No.

    Alternatively, could I use Seraphim but just not take the flamers (40 points for template weapons when I've already got so many seems unnecessary)? Are they still viable without those?
    I don't think Seraphim are viable at all. And Dominions are the better choice, even though they're terrible...And if a terrible choice is better than something else...Yeah.

    Again, I like the concept of Sisters and Grey Knights. However, I'm fully aware that the idea does not translate well to the table and that the Sisters are only bringing Bolters and Heavy Bolters to the table - which GKs are already doing in spades - and Melta, which can be done better by any actual Marine army. As hilarious as 'Celestine and Thrawn' might sound, the meta can deal with it because Necrons do it with their entire army and people deal with that on a regular basis.


    I really think you need to have a few games with proxies and learn some rules and find out how you actually play the game. No-one expects you to build the best list straight out of the gate, and, in fact you should also expect to lose games, because, as with a lot of cases like this (no experience, wants to build best list), you get your stompy list from the internet, and, simply due to meta-game irregularities (terrain placement, 4x4' board instead of 6x4' board, or simply continuous failed dice rolls), you're going to complain that your list doesn't work and you're going to quit the hobby because things didn't work out like the internet said it would. Not saying you, specifically, but I've seen it before with words being said extremely similar to your own.

    Point is, don't be hung up on building 'the best list evar' because there really isn't any such thing because every list has a counter.
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  9. - Top - End - #339
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    I'm just always under the impression that GK Librarians are over-costed (but they're ML2 and have Terminator Armour I hear you cry? But you don't buy Librarians for that...). The big issue facing Librarians is that Inquisitors can also take Divination and auto-pick the Primaris (or roll 1 or 3) for 50 points, plus upgrades. And Coteaz can 'do his thing' for only 100 points and still be the same psychic equivalent of the Librarian.



    No. Yes. Hell no.



    No.



    I don't think Seraphim are viable at all. And Dominions are the better choice, even though they're terrible...And if a terrible choice is better than something else...Yeah.

    Again, I like the concept of Sisters and Grey Knights. However, I'm fully aware that the idea does not translate well to the table and that the Sisters are only bringing Bolters and Heavy Bolters to the table - which GKs are already doing in spades - and Melta, which can be done better by any actual Marine army. As hilarious as 'Celestine and Thrawn' might sound, the meta can deal with it because Necrons do it with their entire army and people deal with that on a regular basis.


    I really think you need to have a few games with proxies and learn some rules and find out how you actually play the game. No-one expects you to build the best list straight out of the gate, and, in fact you should also expect to lose games, because, as with a lot of cases like this (no experience, wants to build best list), you get your stompy list from the internet, and, simply due to meta-game irregularities (terrain placement, 4x4' board instead of 6x4' board, or simply continuous failed dice rolls), you're going to complain that your list doesn't work and you're going to quit the hobby because things didn't work out like the internet said it would. Not saying you, specifically, but I've seen it before with words being said extremely similar to your own.

    Point is, don't be hung up on building 'the best list evar' because there really isn't any such thing because every list has a counter.
    Inquisitors can trade in powers? Then screw Librarians. An Ordos Xenos Inquisitor can take care of the Divination.

    I don't expect to make the "best list ever" (or even a really good one for that matter; I mean, it has Thawn and Sisters). And I expect to be curbstomped repeatedly when I first start (and probably even after that).

    I do plan on playing a few games long before I actually start buying anything (especially since the buying part is probably going to be a ways off, since before that I need money and some people to play with). I'm just planning ahead, and I fully expect to throw away parts of (if not all of) whatever list I come up with here (remember a month back when I was thinking of a Paladin list?).

    Anyway, I think I'm just about done. Time to go back to real life and finding some people to actually play with.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Just on the issue of tyranids. One of my friends runs wolf scout squads with melta bombs which you can now attach to monstrous creatures in combat. It removes the only thing they had going for them which was the difficulty to wound them.

    Even tactical marines have an an increased combat capability thanks to krak grenades. If the marines get to charge as well it is even better as they can throw another grenade, as well as using bolt pistols and probably melta gun.

    So monstrous nids which kinda sucked before, suck even more now. Which is unfortunate because they are so cool.

    Despite 6th ed apparently removing the benefits of having a mech list my razorspam list has been doing remarkably well. The hull points has made it easier to just keep pouring fire into a unit and stop it from shooting back at my vehicle. Where before my dakka baal predator was stopped in its tracks by a single glancing hit, it can now just keep pounding units.

    Fliers have become a pain in the backside, especially anything with AV12. I have found just ignoring them can be a pretty valid tactic though. If you can kill the enemies troops then you dont have to worry about the damage a flier can do. I cannot wait until we find out how to get/what a flakk missile does.

    Plasma cannons suck now just because of snap firing so I have replaced them with heavy bolters which are awesome now, especially at shooting down light fliers.

    On the fun side my 15 terminators in 1000pts space marine list has been undefeated.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    I've yet to entirely buy the idea that mech lists suffer in the new rules. My Guard seemed more viable than ever, since glancing hits can't stun lock you now. Sure, I'm more likely to lose the tanks in the latter parts of the game to concentrated firepower... But in exchange, stopping them from firing in the earlier turns is much, much harder.

    Throw in the fact that immobilized no longer kills a squadroned vehicle, and my Russ variants are just endless amounts of devastation embodied in one package. Hell, since the full strength is used for the entire template now, they've even been improved vs other vehicles.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    I've yet to entirely buy the idea that mech lists suffer in the new rules. My Guard seemed more viable than ever, since glancing hits can't stun lock you now. Sure, I'm more likely to lose the tanks in the latter parts of the game to concentrated firepower... But in exchange, stopping them from firing in the earlier turns is much, much harder.

    Throw in the fact that immobilized no longer kills a squadroned vehicle, and my Russ variants are just endless amounts of devastation embodied in one package. Hell, since the full strength is used for the entire template now, they've even been improved vs other vehicles.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Oh wow.
    Just won the bid for a second hand marine lot.

    1600 points worth of initiates here I come.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Maugan Ra View Post
    I've yet to entirely buy the idea that mech lists suffer in the new rules. [...]
    My Guard
    my Russ variants
    I wish I knew the technical term, but you're arguing from a position of strength. Of course you're not going to know the difference because you play Guard, and, of all the armies that didn't need anything, Guard are the ones who benefit most in the change from 5th to 6th.

    Go ahead and try and tell me that Dark Eldar Mech is still good. And I don't mean that it's good because it's the best option the Codex has. I mean does Dark Eldar mech compare well to other Codecies? No. Same with Orks. Can you still seriously tell me that Fast, non-Skimming vehicles are worth the extra points? No, they're not. Which means Blood Angels are paying extra points for something they don't even want.

    Also, you're hit on a 3+ in Assault no matter how far you move. Which means you can't just drive up 12" or go Flat Out and laugh and laugh as your opponent can't hit you. Ultimately, if you're a vehicle and you're in your opponent's DZ, you're probably dead.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Hootman View Post
    In 5th Edition, Tyranids were CRIPPLED by their lack of cheap anti-tank options over 24". By which I mean, they didn't have anything at all that was practical. Their best anti-tank units were Zoanthropes at 18" (shut down by Psychic Hoods, a Marine and Eldar standard item), and Hive Guard at 24" (pretty awesome, but only 3 models to a unit), and everything else was either a wimpy objective holder, or Krak Missile Bait (S8 AP3 does wonders against T6 Sv3+ Monsters). Poison weapons (Dark Eldar) and Force Weapons (Grey Knights) also shut them down, hard.

    In 6th Edition, they only really got 3 things that make them any better.

    1) Flying Monsterous Creatures in 2 different Force Org Slots.
    2) Overwatching "Devilgants" (Termigants with a very high volume of fire).
    3) Biomancy Psychic Powers, specifically Iron Arm on the Hive Tyrant/Swarmlord.

    Unfortunately, I do not expect this to make them much more competative than they were, because you still cannot effectively deal with vehicles. Much like Orks, Tyranids have no trouble at all just REAPING their way through waves of Infantry--Vehicles, on the other hand...
    actually, zoans might do better at that again: can vehicles deny the witch? if not, psychic hoods won't help and the powers will go off on normal psychic tests.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Cheese - Fair point. I know the Dark Eldar have certainly suffered a fair bit - armour 10 and two or three hull points does make you rather, well, fragile. Moreso than in the past.

    Non-skimming fast vehicles are reasonable, I find thus far. Being able to shoot two weapons when moving 12" is handy for light tanks, and the extra distance in Flat Out is generally quite useful. Not as good as skimmers, though, I will admit.

    And yeah, the lack of a modifier to hit when you go exceptionally fast did strike me as odd. Fast vehicles did traditionally rely on speed to compensate for light armour, which is no longer nearly as much of an option. And flicker fields are now basically Permenent jink saves, unless that got changed. Hmm.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Provengreil View Post
    actually, zoans might do better at that again: can vehicles deny the witch? if not, psychic hoods won't help and the powers will go off on normal psychic tests.
    While they are somewhat better, they still have the same fundamental problem that they had before.

    Zoanthropes: Psychic test, Deny the Witch, Hit, Wound, Save/Damage Chart.
    Hive Guard: Hit, Wound, Save/Damage Chart.

    There are way more places where things can do wrong.

    All units are capable of Denying the Witch (and since the FAQ doesn't cover it, it's POSSIBLE that Grey Knight vehicles get a better chance), and the Zoanthrope only gets one shot against a vehicle even if everything goes as planned. The Hive Guard get two from longer range, ignoring most Cover (and not being effected by Deny the Witch), at the same BS, on a much tougher body, for a slightly lower cost.

    While I grant that DTW is generally unreliable (last weekend I played a 3000 point game, had to DTW about once per turn, and rolled a 1 for every single one of them), when there's a psyker around things start to get dicey (5+ DTW). If they're an Eldar Farseer, GK Librarian, or Special Character psyker, things get even worse, because those are quite often Mastery Level 2+ (4+ DTW).
    Last edited by Hootman; 2012-07-19 at 03:52 PM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Something that's interested me: Apparently, if a Night Scythe carrying some troops is shot down, the troops still take massive damage, despite the fact that they aren't anywhere near the transport at the time.

    This gained from the fact that it says in the Night Scythe entry in the Codex that the models are simply not allowed to disembark, not that they aren't damaged.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Final_Stand View Post
    Something that's interested me: Apparently, if a Night Scythe carrying some troops is shot down, the troops still take massive damage, despite the fact that they aren't anywhere near the transport at the time.

    This gained from the fact that it says in the Night Scythe entry in the Codex that the models are simply not allowed to disembark, not that they aren't damaged.
    The rule says they do not disembark, that they go to reserves. I'm don't believe that models in reserves would take damage. Even the description says "the Night Scythe does not have a transport compartment as such." Further on, it even says, "this invariably prevents the squad from taking part in the immediate battle, this is preferable to them being destroyed outright"

    It seems like a fair case for troops inside it not taking damage.
    Last edited by Gryffon; 2012-07-20 at 09:11 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    So, Battle Report time! And because it was Loyalist on Loyalist, you are fortunately spared the terrible prose I used last time.

    Detachment from Logan Grimnar's Great Company
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    HQ:
    Rune Priest -130 points
    -Chooser of the Slain, Saga of the Beastslayer, Wolf Tail talisman, melta bombs
    --Living Lightning, Jaws of the World Wolf

    Wolf Guard Battle Leader (Warlord, Personal Trait)- 120 points
    -Powerfist, Combi-melta, Saga of the Hunter, Wolf Tail Talisman

    Elites:
    3 Wolf Guard -129 points
    -Powerfist, Combi-melta
    -Powerfist, Combi-plasma
    -Powerfist, Combi-flamer

    5 Wolf Scouts -130 points
    -2 Power Swords, Meltagun, Mark of the Wulfen

    Troops:
    10 Grey Hunters -180 points
    -2 Meltaguns, Wolf Standard, Mark of the Wulfen

    5 Grey Hunters -85 points
    -Plasmagun

    5 Grey Hunters -85 points
    -Plasmagun

    Heavy Support:
    6 Long Fangs -140 points
    -5 Missile Launchers

    Total: 999 points


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    HQ: Colonel Straken (Warlord, Strategic Trait)
    - 2 Body Guards with Plasmaguns, Medic, Vox-caster
    --Chimera Dedicated Transport with Multi-laser

    Elites: Marbo

    Troops: Platoon Command Squad
    -4 Flamers

    22 Guardsmen with 2 Grenade Launchers and 2 Autocannons
    (2 Combined Squads plus heavy weapons team)

    10 Guardsmen with Grenade Launcher
    -Sergeant with Power Weapon

    10 Guardsmen with Grenade Launcher
    -Sergeant with Power Weapon

    Fast Attack: Valkyrie with Mutli-laser

    Heavy Support: Leman Russ Battle Tank


    The battle
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    Game Type is Purge the Alien with Dawn of War deployment. Night Fighting first turn.
    He sets up and gets the city fighting trait (Move through Cover in Ruins and Stealth (ruins), which would be awesome... If there was more than 1 ruin on his side of the board. As it is, he sets up the huge blob in the ruin to take advantage of the 3+ cover save, and puts his two tanks next to them, with the two uncombined squads around the tanks. THe Valkyrie is held in reserve alongside the platoon Command squad.

    I set up such that my Long Fangs are occupying my ruin, while my 2 5-man squads hide behind the ruin from the Leman Russ. The large squad hides behind a hill, while the Scouts and the Battle Leader (Who got the "Each character your warlord kills in a challenge is worth 1 victory point" trait) outflank.

    Turn 1: I seize the initiative, and move everyone forward a bit. Krak rockets are fired at the Leman Russ, and I glance and penetrate it once. 6 for damage! I roll to see how far it blows up. 6 inches. Huh. I end up killing a lot of guardsmen, and the casualties chase one of the small blobs off the board. On his turn, Straken's Chimera moves up, and, assisted by a first rank, second rank from the main blob, kill... 1 marine... Spectacular dice rolls on my part were going to be something of a theme this game.

    Turn 2: Krak rockets into Straken's Chimera. 2 Penetrating hits and a glance. I roll for damage... Boxcars?

    wut

    So, yeah. More dead guardsmen, and Straken, deprived of his bodyguards by the explosion, is exposed to bolter fire, which leaves him alone with 1 wound down. On his turn, a couple more Grey Hunters die, while Straken's attempt at a suicide charge ends ungloriously when he takes an overwatching meltagun to the face. My scouts and his Valkyrie roll ones on their reserves roll, but Marbo comes in, and drops a det charge on a group of grey hunters, killing... two. Honestly, I took heavier casualties to my own plasmaguns. >.>

    Turn 3: Scouts and the Battle Leader come in. AT this point, I don't expect to lose, and he loses the other small blob, while the main blob has taken a few casualties over the time. Marbo, to his credit, manages to kill the 2 remaining Grey Hunters in the squad he blew up. His Valkyrie still does not arrive.

    Turn 4: More dead Guardsmen and Grey Hunters. Marbo gets stuck in combat with the other 5 man squad (Honestly, my sergeants end up refusing challenges more often then they make them, although that's usually because they end up fighting lone characters), although it's now down to 3 grey Hunters and their wolf guard. His Valkyrie finally arrives, and combined fire with what's left of the big blob manages to reduce the big pack of grey hunters to a handful of their numbers.

    Turn 5: Grey Hunters fighting Marbo are bailed out by the Wolf Scouts and Battle Leader. Meanwhile, the last guard blob is down to 2 guardsmen and the autocannons. The game ends with only one of my squads totally eliminated. I have 8 victory points after Slay the Warlord and First blood, while he has only one. That was... lopsided.


    What did I learn from this? That the best way to put the fear of the emperor back in your dice is to threaten to replace them. That, or these dice really have it out for this guy, since this is the guy I also won my first game against.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    He cheated. Bodyguards can't take plasma guns. Not that you'd want them to have them anyway, so it's kind of a pointless cheat, but they can't actually change their equipment; only the squad's veterans can. Also, the heavy weapons team in the platoon should have replaced two Guardsmen, not been in addition to them, so he also had too many bodies. Also also, I only count one Troops choice.

    This is made up for by his incompetence, however. He actually positioned the Russ such that you could penetrate it with krak missiles on turn 1?
    Last edited by Renegade Paladin; 2012-07-20 at 01:45 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Based on numbers in the squad, I think they weren't actually Bodyguards, just veterans. That, or he's lacking two men from his company command squad.

    But yeah. Penetrating hits from krak missiles against a Russ demands that he be exposing his side armour to you. Even if he set up first, that requires some amazingly poor deployment options. It's a turret gun and you can fire it on the move, there's no need to risk exposing it like that.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Speaking of Leman russes. How would you people judge that the rule Lumbering behemoth works in the new edition?

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Thus far? Pretty damn well. No overall changes to it, to be perfectly honest. Being able to shoot your turret weapon on the move now allows you to get one of your secondary weapons firing at a decent Ballistic Skill as well, rather than being relegated to snap firing.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    The biggest boost to russes in this edition is the fact that immobilization no longer destroys vehicles in squadrons. That's the best thing in my opinion.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Maugan Ra View Post
    Based on numbers in the squad, I think they weren't actually Bodyguards, just veterans. That, or he's lacking two men from his company command squad.
    I'd allow mistaking the normal squad members for bodyguards, but if I read it right there were two autocannon teams in the blobbed squads, which should have been eighteen models, not twenty-two. (Even if you count both guys on the HWT base, it's only twenty.) Also, only one Troops choice.

    Something else: His command squad has a vox caster, but none of the others do. Was he using the re-roll on orders without actually having voxes at both ends?
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  27. - Top - End - #357
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Maugan Ra View Post
    Non-skimming fast vehicles are reasonable, I find thus far.
    So how do you not buy the nerf? It used to be really, really good. Blood Angels don't like Plaserbacks anymore. That should tell you everything you need to know.

    extra distance in Flat Out is generally quite useful
    It is? I've not seen it used once in my meta-game. Primarily because it gets to closer to your opponent's line, which means getting hit in Assault on a 3+. Moving forwards and not-Shooting is exactly what vehicles don't want to be doing.

    And flicker fields are now basically Permenent jink saves, unless that got changed. Hmm.
    Jink saves are permanent anyway, which is why Flickerfields don't mean anything. I can count only three anti-vehicle weapons in the game that ignore cover. And I think all of them - while Ordnance - are still only S5 or 6, and so none of them are taken with any regularity.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    I don't buy the nerf. Fast vehicles now fire two weapons at full BS while moving cruising speed, while it used to be only one weapon period. Helloooo multimelta Devil Dog!

    Fast transports I get the nerf. Hell, transports in general. But a fast assault vehicle? I dig it.

    Speaking of, I wonder if Valkyrie's grav-chute insertion will work while flying now, because the wording says while moving flat-out (meaning while Hovering under the new rules) and the FAQ doesn't change it respective to the flying question.
    Last edited by Renegade Paladin; 2012-07-20 at 08:45 PM.
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  29. - Top - End - #359
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    I don't buy the nerf. Fast vehicles now fire two weapons at full BS while moving cruising speed, while it used to be only one weapon period. Helloooo multimelta Devil Dog!
    Well, used to be one Primary weapon and all Defensive weapons. You just didn't notice because you play Guard... And then Guard got buffed.
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    ALL HAIL LORD CHEESEGEAR! Cheese for the cheesegear!
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Yeah. I'm not thrilled about how the changes affect Tauros assault vehicles, though. They only get two structure points, and their ability to ignore Immobilized counts for a lot less now since getting a penetrating hit that immobilizes them puts them halfway to dead anyway even if they make the 4+ to keep moving.

    I did notice the defensive weapon thing, though - I took advantage of it with my Valkyrie and rocket pods. Now that defensive weapons aren't a thing, though, I'll probably go to missiles and save thirty points.
    Last edited by Renegade Paladin; 2012-07-20 at 11:28 PM.
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