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2012-10-06, 10:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
Question here; Chaos Lords are still independant characters, Correct? So, unless I've been doing something wrong, Independant characters are usually in a unit, unless they've decided to go off and kill a small group of troops. So, assuming most Chaos Marines squads have a character in them (I don't know, I don't think I've ever played a match against Chaos Marines proper), is it possible for the other Character to accept the challenge instead, or is the Chaos Lord forced to accept any and all challenges made?
Also, a blob of 40-50 guardsman most likely has a Commissar anyway, so it was most likely going to tarpit a lone Chaos Lord for a long time anyway simply by weight of bodies, unless I'm drastically underestimating the killing potential of a Chaos Lord.Last edited by Squark; 2012-10-06 at 10:14 AM.
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2012-10-06, 10:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
I actually think the Dragonplane is one of the more interesting models I've seen for chaos.
Resident Vancian Apologist
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2012-10-06, 10:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
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2012-10-06, 10:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
Wait, mass guardsman assault is a thing? This is a development I knew nothing about and shall keep from my guard playing friend as much as possible.
How does that work? I'd have thought that the Guard would be nigh incapable of doing much, since they can't concentrate their punching as well as their shooting, and their stats are all lower, so they have to roll higher, and generally after the Marines have cut them down, reducing the number of dice they can roll.
And not accepting a challenge only makes sense from my point of view when it's a character you really don't want to die, and who has minimal chance of winning. It's more the existence of challenges in general that would hamstring a killy thing into only killing one thing at a time, since as Renegade Paladin points out, if you don't accept, your killy thing does nothing anyway. If your opponent challenges you, it's a choice between "Kill one thing" and "Kill nothing", and Chaos merely cannot choose "Kill nothing".
What am I missing here?I Wanna Be the Guy Kid avatar by Ceika. Many thanks.
If I win, I get to be a king. If I lose, then I get to be a legend.
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2012-10-06, 10:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
Right, the Chaos Lord can either A) Kill half a dozen dudes, assuming you don't challenge him...
or
B) Kill your pissy Sergeant, since he'll accept the challenge. Your brave Sergeant will get a medal for that. Posthumously, of course. He just saved the lives of his whole squad. Get in.
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2012-10-06, 10:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
I was looking at it from the Chaos side of things. I fail to see how "Cannot refuse challenges" is any significant downside when the Lord in question is perfectly capable of obliterating any plucky sergeant, and refusing means that the guard player, in this case, gets to choose a character, inevitably the Lord, who can't do anything!
Unless the rule was along the lines of "If a challenge is issued, the Chaos Lord, and only the Chaos Lord, must accept". Which makes much more sense, since it means you can't leave the challenge to the Aspiring Champion in the squad.
Could someone with the Codex clarify? Is the rule "A unit with a Chaos Lord in cannot refuse a challenge", or "The Chaos Lord specifically must accept the challenge."?I Wanna Be the Guy Kid avatar by Ceika. Many thanks.
If I win, I get to be a king. If I lose, then I get to be a legend.
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2012-10-06, 10:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
Except they don't. It's not your choice. It's your opponents'. If he Challenges, you must accept. You get to kill one model. If that unit is Fearless, or Stubborn (from a Commissar), then your tarpit-killer Lord kills one model. You can't stop this from happening.
You fail to see the point.
A Chaos Lord has lots and lots of attacks. He can easily kill 5+ Guardsmen every round. The fact that a plucky Sergeant gets to remove him from the fight is a huge blow. Think back to Canis Wolfborn and what happens when he gets Challenged? i.e; He turns to crap and does practically nothing.
Could someone with the Codex clarify? Is the rule "A unit with a Chaos Lord in cannot refuse a challenge", or "The Chaos Lord specifically must accept the challenge."?
Yes, for sure, you can take the Challenge with a unit Champion and leave your Lord to do real killing, but how come your opponent hasn't seen that coming and picked him off somehow? Or are people on this Forum going to tell me they still haven't worked out Precision Shots and how units of Snipers are amazing (like I've been saying for at least a year) or how Wound Allocation works? If your opponent deploys like most people, the Character will be in the front, he's taking wounds.
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2012-10-06, 11:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
Okay, Snipers, you can only do so much about (Although that 4+ Look out sir gives the champion some protection, and not every army has snipers worth taking), but deploying special weapons and characters in the front (2+ bullet shields aside, and I'm skeptical on the validity of even that, frankly) is doing it wrong (Except for maybe flamers, but that's just because it's difficult to use a flamer from the second rank).
Last edited by Squark; 2012-10-06 at 11:11 AM.
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2012-10-06, 11:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
Read the text for the Black Mace, CG. Challenge or no challenge, he'll still be killing half of everything within 3" of him at the end of every assault phase thanks to that AoE toughness test it does.
If your problem is that the Chaos Lord can't murder things because he gets trapped in a challenge, then the Black Mace is a pretty good answer to that. Because it's anti-tarpit abilities work even from inside a challenge.
Though I think Guard are the only army that can get multiple characters in a unit now without adding HQs. Which means the enemy has to feed the Chaos Lord multiple units to keep him occupied, and Chaos Lords are actually pretty cheap unless you go nuts on wargear.Last edited by Tome; 2012-10-06 at 11:25 AM.
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2012-10-06, 12:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
*thinks*
Well, Necrons can get 1 Character into a unit per Royal Court... Also, there's Lukas the Trickster (You can take Lukas and a wolf guard in a Blood Claws pack), but that would require you to actually take Blood Claws.
Edit: Also, challenges happen... Pretty much every time they can. Either because you rolled a 4 on the personal traits table, because you want to reduce the number of attacks coming against you (For instance, a lone HQ vs 5 Devastators. This way, the sergeant doesn't get to attack), or because you want the Sergeant to act as a meat shield. So the only time I can see a Chaos character turning down a challenge is because he's fighting a lone character, and you think your squad has a better chance of taking said character down than your character does.Last edited by Squark; 2012-10-06 at 12:23 PM.
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2012-10-06, 06:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
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2012-10-06, 06:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
Is there a difference between being removed from play and being removed as a casualty? I used to think there was, but now I'm not so sure, mainly because the FAQ for SoB states that Celestine can come back from things that remove from play (which only makes sense if the two are identical, since the entry says she has to be removed as a casualty).
Wolfen Houndog - The World in Revolt (4e)
The Mythic Warrior, a 3.5 base class that severs limbs and sunders armor
The Nameless One, converted to 3.5 and 5e
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2012-10-06, 06:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
They both mean the same thing. However, in some situations you can be removed from the board without being dealt any wounds (which is what the question is getting at) and it does get rid of those pesky Eternal Warriors which makes these things quite good; Jaws of the World Wolf, Dark Eldar Shattershards, Captain Stern and I think one of the things from Chaos Marines does it too, are just off the top of my head.
Jaws is a staple of the game now (i.e; Space Wolves are one of the best armies in the game and are everywhere). What, you don't take Allies?
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2012-10-06, 07:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
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2012-10-06, 07:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
Wolfen Houndog - The World in Revolt (4e)
The Mythic Warrior, a 3.5 base class that severs limbs and sunders armor
The Nameless One, converted to 3.5 and 5e
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2012-10-06, 08:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
So, I told my friend who I beat up every day with my Tyranids (Despite him using a normal vindicator/predator/other stuff C:SM list against my Swarmlord) that I'm interested in playing the new chaos.
One week later he said he was playing Grey Knights.
So, does anyone have any advice on anti Grey knight options for Chaos? So far he seems to like taking terminator troops w/Librarian in Terminator armor (Also talks about Kaldor Draigo and getting Paladins). So I'm thinking terminators with combi-meltas and power axes/fists (As he seems to like force halberds, or whatever the +2 I thing is).“I’m a Terrorist not an idiot.” - Me
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2012-10-06, 08:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
Basically it's Instant Death, except you can't be immune to it.
First, don't get any of the following;
Daemon Princes, Possessed, Obliterators, Mutilators, Forgefiends, Maulerfiends, Heldrakes or Defilers.
Grey Knights will eat those things for breakfast. Especially funny for Heldrakes, even though they're Flyers, Grey Knights get to re-roll To Hit against them for free. lol.
Other than that, I've had the Codex for less than a day, give me a bit.
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2012-10-06, 09:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
Wolfen Houndog - The World in Revolt (4e)
The Mythic Warrior, a 3.5 base class that severs limbs and sunders armor
The Nameless One, converted to 3.5 and 5e
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2012-10-07, 02:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
I'm still failing to see the issue with the "Must accept challenges". From my point of view, it is a problem with the existence of challenges in general that lets the plucky sergeant prevent the Chaos Lord from blending his entire squad.
Let us hypothetically remove the rule that "Chaos must accept challenges". How is Chaos now better?
Bearing in mind that refusing a challenge means that the challenging player may now select a Character who may not make any attacks. Who will inevitably be the selected Character?
Does the rule say that Chaos must always initiate the challenge when given the opportunity? That would certainly wreck things, but I've not heard from you or anyone about the existence of that clause.I Wanna Be the Guy Kid avatar by Ceika. Many thanks.
If I win, I get to be a king. If I lose, then I get to be a legend.
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2012-10-07, 02:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
The issue is guys like the Big 5 rolling up to your squad and saying "Fight me." If you refuse, theoretically, you could beatstick them down with attacks, who cares if you refused a challenge if you can kill the guy anyway? Think about a Hive Tyrant, for example. He issues a challenge because he wants to get away from your units of Hammers, you say no. Because what kind of idiot accepts a Challenge from a Hive Tyrant? Then, using the other four Power Fists or Axes you then start to carve him up.
Or, any Warlord who rolls a '4', where it is the opponents' best interest to refuse all Challenges. You can't do that. If any killy-HQ rolls a '4' against Chaos Marines, he will laugh and laugh and laugh because there's no way he can lose the game.
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2012-10-07, 04:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
Your original distaste for being forced to accept challenges was with regard to Guard blobs. I agree, if there is a Hive Tyrant or some other absurdly killy model, then not being able to let the guys with the Hammers/Fists/Whatever take it down together is a huge blow. It just doesn't make sense to single out the Guard, who can, by challenging, effectively remove the Lord from the combat regardless of whether he could or could not accept challenges.
I Wanna Be the Guy Kid avatar by Ceika. Many thanks.
If I win, I get to be a king. If I lose, then I get to be a legend.
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2012-10-07, 04:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
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2012-10-07, 05:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
So, had a look at the new Chaos codex in my local game store, because I'd bought the new starter set hoping to get some marines I could convert to (refluffed) Plague Marines so I'd have some very hard to kill objective holders to ally with my Necrons. I had heard that you could only have cult marines as Troops if your Warlord was aligned to the right god, and I was okay with that. Then I look through the new book and see that it says the HQs only make cult marines troops if Chaos Space Marines are your primary detachment.
Now I haven't got the rulebook on me, but I believe that means my dream of of a small allied force consisting of a Lord/Sorcerer and a few Plague Marines is dead. So... now what? Is there any way to make regular Chaos Marines useful to me, or should I just set them aside until I can afford to make them into an actual army rather than an allied force? My FLGS still has two of the old Chaos battlebox with 15 CSMs plus Berserkers and a Rhino, which seems like a much better deal than the new set, so I hate to let those disappear if I'm eventually going to want Chaos stuff. I don't have enough cash to start an entire new army right now, so I can't just count my Marines as another codex that can't ally with Necrons.
Any ideas?Last edited by CN the Logos; 2012-10-07 at 05:32 AM.
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2012-10-07, 05:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
Normal CSMs with the Mark of Nurgle would still be pretty useful. You'd loose FNP and a few other minor benefits, but they'd be substantially cheaper. You'd be able to field another half a unit for the points saved.
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2012-10-07, 07:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
Well, if you take a Lord (not a Sorcerer, that doesn't work), and two small squads of Plague Marines, that does satisfy the Primary. Then you'll just have to max out on whatever Necrons you've got left. It looks wonky on the table, but on paper it's legit.
So... now what? Is there any way to make regular Chaos Marines useful to me, or should I just set them aside until I can afford to make them into an actual army rather than an allied force?
Then from there; Mark of Tzeentch with Icon of Flame. Or, since it's just supposed to be a minimum-man Scoring unit, the Icon of Vengeance works too.
Minimum Chosen with Plasmaguns to bring valuable ranged AP2 which Necrons don't have. Make these guys Slaanesh and give them FNP Icon. But, you could have Plague Marines too who have less Plasmaguns, cost more points and have extra Toughness. But they don't Score so you don't really need them to survive after they've done what you want them to...Which I don't know what that is.
Fast Attack; Slaanesh Bikers with FNP. Easy.
Heavy; Flakk Havocs, but you wont need to pay points for Flakk since you're Necrons and you've already got 4 Flyers of your own...Right?
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2012-10-07, 08:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
Might be worth it just for the look on the other guy's face when I tell him I'm playing Chaos and then unveil an army that is 3/4 Necrons.
Useful to Necrons? Not really. You can get a Mastery Level 3 Sorcerer with Telepathy. Which brings a better Deny the Witch roll which Necrons don't even have. Then, if it was me, I'd grab a minimum unit or two of Chaos Marines and stick a Flamer in just for Overwatch stuff.
Then from there; Mark of Tzeentch with Icon of Flame. Or, since it's just supposed to be a minimum-man Scoring unit, the Icon of Vengeance works too.
Minimum Chosen with Plasmaguns to bring valuable ranged AP2 which Necrons don't have. Make these guys Slaanesh and give them FNP Icon. But, you could have Plague Marines too who have less Plasmaguns, cost more points and have extra Toughness. But they don't Score so you don't really need them to survive after they've done what you want them to...Which I don't know what that is.
Basically, I want Lychguard that are better than Lychguard. I also needed a 6th edition rulebook, and figured with the aid of a file and some green stuff I could add about a thousand points to my army for $100, and figured, "Hey, I can make this work, get some tough, hard to kill dudes to supplement my frail but shooty dudes and expand them into a full second army later, when I've got more cash."
Also I like a lot of the Chaos models, especially the new stuff, and hate the Imperium (fluff and models), so having some Nyarlathotep-worshiping super soldiers team up with my art deco robot mummies to fight the Third Reich IN SPACE sounded like fun.
...I didn't say that this was well thought out on any sort of competitive level.
Fast Attack; Slaanesh Bikers with FNP. Easy.
Heavy; Flakk Havocs, but you wont need to pay points for Flakk since you're Necrons and you've already got 4 Flyers of your own...Right?
The flyers are definitely on the "to buy" list either way, whether it's now or later. I'm just having a hard time deciding what I want first. I've only seen like, three flyers at the local gameshop; it's really not a competitive meta as far as I can tell. But regardless of whether I need them, the Necron flyers are really cool, and death raying things to... death... would be fun. Decisions.
Thanks for the advice. It's much appreciated.
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2012-10-07, 01:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
If dealing with terminators is what you want, then Plague Marines aren't your best option, really.
You actually have a fairly decent option in your own codex for dealing with termies in the form of Wraiths, if I recall correctly. Failing that, a big blob of Cultists witha Dark ApostleTyphus would be a pretty good tarpit if you want to use Chaos.Last edited by Tome; 2012-10-07 at 07:45 PM.
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2012-10-07, 04:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
My tyranids won a game against Elysians with Valhallan allies somehow. Game ending after turn 5 so I didn't have to watch his flyers wipe out my army while I couldn't hurt them probably helped.
Basically my 1/4 strength genestealers and 1/2 strength termagant squads were enough to beat him once I was close enough.
Choosing biomancy on two broodlords and only getting ranged powers was pretty useless. As was telepathy once I worked out Broodlords can't actually cast invisibility."that nighted, penguin-fringed abyss" - At The Mountains of Madness, H.P. Lovecraft
When a man decides another's future behind his back, it is a conspiracy. When a god does it, it's destiny.
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2012-10-07, 07:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
Coteaz and his unit may immediately...
Immediately after a unit of Warp Talons...
Assuming the Warp Talons haven't been Warp Quaked (), what happens first? Since both rules say 'immediately'. Being Blinded directly affects how Coteaz' unit will work when it comes time to do his thing.
Hopefully this is an FAQ, and the real FAQs that come out in a few weeks wont be noobs asking obvious rules.
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2012-10-08, 12:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
For some reason, I've always been under the impression that priority always goes to the Player whose turn it is; in this case, the Warp Talons' ability goes first as Coteaz is reacting out of turn.
I don't know where I've got this from, or what circumstances prompted me to find out, but I'm strangely convinced that's how it goes. *shrug*Last edited by Wraith; 2012-10-08 at 12:15 PM.
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