Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

[Cheesegear]

If I wanted to make a largely assault BA army, is it worth the points to give my tactical squads special weapons, or should I just give them heavy weapons and park them on the objectives?

Special weapons are always worth it. Plasmaguns for preference. Or you can bring Meltagun/Flamer + Multi-Melta combos, but you have Assault Marines for that, and they get the Rhino discounted.

If you wanted to make a largely assault BA army, why would you have tactical squads?

Because you want maybe one squad to sit home and Score, and you aren't using Allies?

[thereaper]

Thread XVII - We Are The Word Bearers - All 850 Pages Of Them!

This one is great.

"Undivided my ass!"

But this one is nice too.

[Wraith]

I shoot him with anything that causes Instant Death. Leman Russes and Vindicators being the favourite these days.

A stiff breeze could probably suffice, but I digress.....

Well, the Phoenix Lords have Eternal Warrior, 3 Wounds and a 2+ Save. Seems good. But Asurmen is the only one with an Invulnerable so he's the only one we'll care about since the others will die in two seconds flat in any combat that matters. However, he's still only S3, AP3. So he wont do anything against Terminators, or even guys with Artificer Armour.

The only thing that Asurman has going for him under such circumstances are that he is I7 and that his sword still causes the 'old style' of instant death (note the small letters). There's a tiny chance - I'm not even going to bother working it out since it is more of a statistical anomaly than a genuine tactic - that he could run at Lysander and take him down in one turn.

And when that day comes, I sell all 6,000 points of my Eldar and declare that they have 'won' 40k forever.

[Cheesegear]

[Asurmen]'s sword still causes the 'old style' of instant death (note the small letters). There's a tiny chance - I'm not even going to bother working it out since it is more of a statistical anomaly than a genuine tactic - that he could run at Lysander and take him down in one turn.

It does! Three FAQs later and they still haven't fixed it, or maybe that's meant to be how it is. Soul-sucking sword kills you. As opposed to Malan'tai where you get a cover save to stop your soul being ripped out.

But, yeah. The Diresword is still only AP3 and anyone who matters is still Ld10. I don't think I've ever really been impressed by a Diresword...Not since 4th when it was relevant, anyway.

[Squark]

Thread XVII - We Are The Word Bearers - All 850 Pages Of Them!

This. My vote goes to this.

Anyway, Space Wolves list! This time with Grey Knight allies (1500 points)

Spoiler

Show

Main Army: Space Wolves
HQ: Rune Priest -120
-Saga of the Beastslayer, Chooser of the Slain, Runic Sword
-Living Lightning, Jaws of the World Wolf
Wolf Priest -110
-Saga of the Hunter
Elites: Wolf Guard Pack (3) -109
-Terminator Armor, Combi-melta, Power Axe
-Terminator Armor, Combi-plasma, Power Axe
-Terminator Armor, Power Axe
Troops: Grey Hunters Pack (8) -185
-Meltagun, Mark of the Wulfen, Wolf Standard
-Drop Pod
Grey Hunters Pack (10) -185
-2 Plasmaguns, Mark of the Wulfen, Wolf Standard
Grey Hunters Pack (10) 160
-2 Plasmaguns
Heavy Support: Long Fangs Pack (6) -140
-5 Missile Launchers
Long Fangs Pack (6) -140
-5 Missile Launchers
Allied Detatchment: Grey Knights
HQ: Inquisitor Torquamada Coteaz -100
-Divination
Troops: Strike Knights Squad (10) -250*
-2 Psycannons, Psybolt Amunition
-Justicar with Nemesis Force Halberd Glaive
Total 1499 points

*May be 5 points off on this, I don't have the codex for another day to check the cost of a Nemesis Force Halberd on a Strike Knight.

Commentary? I'd kind of like to find points for Runic Armor on the Wolf Priest, and I am kind of worried 3 HQs, even cheap force multiplying ones like I've taken, is excessive at 1500 points. Also, do the Strike Knights need Daemonhammers?

[HalfTangible]

If you wanted to make a largely assault BA army, why would you have tactical squads?

Ranged support, plus assault marines should probably be moving forward, even if they're troops.

[Gauntlet]

Space Wolves List

Remember that your Runic Weapon will turn off your Grey Knights' psychic powers.
Your Strike Squad is indeed only 245 points. You could always Master-craft the Halberd with the extra points.
Your list looks solid but you don't have any cover-busting or reliable anti-air (Divination helps, though). I would be tempted to drop the Wolf Standards and Wulfen (and maybe a Combi-Plasma off the Wolf Guard) to get enough points for a Land Speeder with a couple Heavy Flamers.

[Squark]

Remember that your Runic Weapon will turn off your Grey Knights' psychic powers.
Your Strike Squad is indeed only 245 points. You could always Master-craft the Halberd with the extra points.
Your list looks solid but you don't have any cover-busting or reliable anti-air (Divination helps, though). I would be tempted to drop the Wolf Standards and Wulfen (and maybe a Combi-Plasma off the Wolf Guard) to get enough points for a Land Speeder with a couple Heavy Flamers.

Yup, I know the Grey Knights need to stay well in front of the Rune Priest. I'd rather turn take that 5 points and give the Wolf Priest some meltabombs.

I'm not entirely sure what to do about cover busting, although the low anti-air is a metagame choice (And will probably be rectified with a Stormraven or Aegis Defence Line once I expand this to 1850). I really don't think a lone land speeder will work, though- It's just going to bite a krak missile and die turn 1 without additional armour.

[shadowwalker64]

This. My vote goes to this.

Anyway, Space Wolves list! This time with Grey Knight allies (1500 points)

Spoiler

Show

Main Army: Space Wolves
HQ: Rune Priest -120
-Saga of the Beastslayer, Chooser of the Slain, Runic Sword
-Living Lightning, Jaws of the World Wolf
Wolf Priest -110
-Saga of the Hunter
Elites: Wolf Guard Pack (3) -109
-Terminator Armor, Combi-melta, Power Axe
-Terminator Armor, Combi-plasma, Power Axe
-Terminator Armor, Power Axe
Troops: Grey Hunters Pack (8) -185
-Meltagun, Mark of the Wulfen, Wolf Standard
-Drop Pod
Grey Hunters Pack (10) -185
-2 Plasmaguns, Mark of the Wulfen, Wolf Standard
Grey Hunters Pack (10) 160
-2 Plasmaguns
Heavy Support: Long Fangs Pack (6) -140
-5 Missile Launchers
Long Fangs Pack (6) -140
-5 Missile Launchers
Allied Detatchment: Grey Knights
HQ: Inquisitor Torquamada Coteaz -100
-Divination
Troops: Strike Knights Squad (10) -250*
-2 Psycannons, Psybolt Amunition
-Justicar with Nemesis Force Halberd Glaive
Total 1499 points

*May be 5 points off on this, I don't have the codex for another day to check the cost of a Nemesis Force Halberd on a Strike Knight.

Commentary? I'd kind of like to find points for Runic Armor on the Wolf Priest, and I am kind of worried 3 HQs, even cheap force multiplying ones like I've taken, is excessive at 1500 points. Also, do the Strike Knights need Daemonhammers?

Halberd is 5pts, so that squad is actually 245pts. GKSS do not NEED hammers, but it's always nice to have one on a squad member (justicar should have a halberd for character sniping).

First thing that springs to mind is not that much scoring (I don't think) for 1.5k. I don't play much of it (I find it to be too restricting tbh), but I have a Loganwing pod list that fields nearly as many midfield bodies as you (2 off), but I have more pods and more terminators, which kind of surprises me. As you've identified, it's partially due to the fact that you have 3 HQs, as well as having a GK ally detachment.

First off, why have the GK at all? As mentioned twice before, Rune priests interfere with GK powers, which can really limit you if you're up against, say, a pod list or an assault-centric list, where it would benefit you to have GKSS/coteaz closer to your SW elements in order to give them protection as well (in the form of Warp Quake and Sacntuary respectively). In addition, GK aren't really bringing anything to your SW. GH comprise of formidable midfield presence anyway: you do not really need GKSS to supplement it. Similarly, coteaz's main role is cheap divination and acolytes, the former of which SW have plenty of and the latter of which shouldn't be used in an allies detachment. If you are really that concerned about divination, you should run another rune priest. If you really insist on using GKSS, then you should be playing pure GK :P. The points saved can be used to bolster your scoring, more long fangs, or perhaps even getting lone wolves/thunderwolves.

The wolf priest in the SW detachment seems misplaced: you're paying 110pts for preferred enemy on one infantry squad, fearless, and outflank (which has limited usage in this case, I feel). Another rune priest is probably better suited to support your GH tbh, and will provide additional divination if you choose to drop GK. The drop pod also feels out of place, especially with only 2 meltas in it. Seems like a strange place to invest MoTW and Standard on a suicide squad as well. I would genuinely just replace that with another foothunter unit. In addition, MoTW seems like a waste IMO: the points are better spent on ensuring that banners are in every squad and then spent on other purchases (like runic armour).

Hope this helps, and merry christmas to everyone

[lord_khaine]

I shoot him with anything that causes Instant Death. Leman Russes and Vindicators being the favourite these days.

Back when i used him i just took that on either of the 3++ saves

Funny story though, i played thought the entire 5th edition without him dying once on me, though of course there was quite a few occations of him running screaming away from the battlefiled

[Drasius]

Lorgars Big Book of Answers: Everything you ever wanted to know about Chaos but were afraid to ask

Alternately; Lorgars Big Black Book of Chaos

Power from the written word

Knowledge, not just for Tzeentch anymore!

Erebus? Are you writing these down?

[Cheesegear]

Now for some titles actually related to the Tactics Thread;

Now with more movement.
600% more Imperial Guard.
Battle Bros4Life.
We're all just Allies of Convenience.
Tyranids don't have friends.
Where Eldar and Dark Eldar have tea parties.
Feel the wrath of the Necron Space Croissant!
Where the Missions are random and the Points don't mean anything!

[otakuryoga]

We're all just Allies of Convenience.
Tyranids don't have friends.

i like those two

[Forrestfire]

We're all just Allies of Convenience.
Tyranids don't have friends.

I'm a fan of these two as well.

[Tychris1]

Tyranids don't have friends.
Where Eldar and Dark Eldar have tea parties.

I like these two.

[LeSwordfish]

My vote goes to We're All Just Allies of Convenience and Where the Missions Are Made up and the Points don't matter.

[lord_khaine]

Tyranids don't have friends.

my vote for this one

[LeSwordfish]

I like the sentiment of "Tyranids don't have friends" but i feel the execution is lacking. "Nobody likes the Tyranids", maybe.

[Cheesegear]

Where the Missions Are Made up and the Points don't matter.

I knew someone would have the real quote.
Missions are Random (not made up), but, Points really don't mean anything if you can table your opponent.

"Nobody likes the Tyranids", maybe.

The only problem with that is that it's rife for misconstruing. I like Tyranids, and so do a lot of other people. Hence, the comment may be misleading.

[thereaper]

How about "Tyranids hate everyone"?

Or "Tyranids like everyone equally...as food"?

[Hootman]

"NIDS: Forever hungry. Forever alone."

"KEEP CHARGING. MAYBE IT'LL WORK THIS TIME."

"Draigo's a ****, but Eldrad's is still bigger." (Change characters to suit your taste.)

"Shooty beats choppy. Shootier beats shooty."

[thereaper]

"NIDS: Forever hungry. Forever alone."

I like it, but I think it could be phrased better.

[Timberwolf]

Single red hive tyrant seeks food.

In honour of the Dark Angels,... "On a deathwing and a prayer"

The bird is the Word. (actually rather subtle in a pre heresy kind of way).

[Tehnar]

Thoughts on Nightspinner?

5 rangers + 25 points on other stuff or a Nightspinner in a non mech army?

[Timberwolf]

In a non mech army, it'll be lascannon bait and die first is my thoughts, whereas the rangers benefit from a stupid cover save and will stay alive to contribute unless someone turns up rocking lots and lots of flamers.

If you had a load of Wave serpents toting really dangerous stuff like Fire Dragons, I'd say go for a Fire Prism, but yes, it'd probably stay alive long enough to do something, but in a non mech army ? If you're going for a foot list, better to keep it that way.

[Cheesegear]

New thread is coming up. Here's an idea I was throwing around;

I'm new to the hobby. Which army should I start?
It really depends on what you want to play. And how your meta-game shapes up. Find out what everyone else is playing near you, and play anything not those armies for best results. Otherwise, if you're starting from scratch with no-one really to play with - or, you've got a friend who is also starting from scratch - buy the Dark Vengeance starter box.

What's Dark Vengeance?
Dark Vengeance contains a rulebook and a bunch of dice.

It contains roughly 850 Points worth of Dark Angels (subject to change in 2013), or around 750 Points worth of Space Marines.
However, it only contains around 500 points worth of Chaos Space Marines. Of course, if you're playing DV as it's meant to be played, you're never using all of the models at once so the points difference doesn't really matter.

However, in practical terms, the DA/SMs require another Troops box to be game legal. And, while the CSMs are legal, they're almost 300 points behind and lack anything that packs a decent punch. You will also need the relevant Codecies for your faction as it will dramatically change the way you play the game as opposed to using the reference sheets that come with DV.

How much does it cost?
The Dark Vengeance box, one Codex, one other box of your choosing, and a Starter Paint Set costs you about the same as a Playstation 3 and one game*. In both cases, you'd be good to go for about a month. This author thinks of most boxes as console games, and Flyers and Land Raiders are the AAA-Title Collector's Edition game. The difference being that in this hobby you can use all your 'games' at the same time, and continuously.

Is WH40K expensive? Yes. I suppose it is. We all know it is. But, practically speaking, it's no more expensive than any other hobby.

*Priced in $AU where everything is more expensive - although the ratios should be the same.

Okay, I've got everything. What next?
Play some games. Playing some actual games, is a far, far better learning experience than anything you could glean from the internet. Although we really would appreciate some stories and how you're finding your army.
Find out what works for you, find out what doesn't (just because the internet likes something, doesn't mean you will too). You, more than anyone know who your opponents are and what they're putting on the table. You are in the best position to find out what you need to bring to the table.

However, if you're still stuck. Just ask.

How many points do I need? What size board do I need?
There are ways that you can play 200, 400 and 500 point games using altered rules. But, if you want to play the game as-is, the recommended minimum is 750.

The game 'balances out' at 1500. Most games should be played at this level since pretty much all armies get a fair shake.

However, in other meta-games, find out what the local tournament standard is. Most people in your area should be playing at that points level.

As for board size; a 4x4' table can accommodate up to 1250 with reasonable room left for movement. But, after that you should probably look at finding a 6x4' area. The floor is never a bad start.

I did what you said and I still lost. What gives?
First, this game is all about dice. Dice are random (most of the time anyway), sometimes you just get bad rolls all game and there's nothing you can really do about it. It's best to accept it, otherwise you're not going to have a very fun time.

Sometimes your opponent can make a minor change in his list - like changing from Plasma Cannons to Lascannons. That can totally alter the flow of the game and what happens when they next play you.

Sometimes the terrain placement is just bad (or the terrain itself is bad) and right from Deployment you can find yourself getting shot at and there's nothing you can do about it. Really, this can only stress how important terrain can be to how the game gets played.

And, lastly, maybe you just 'did it wrong'? Maybe you used [X] to shoot [Y] when they should have been shooting [Z]. Maybe you Charged, when the better move could have been moving backwards and Rapid Firing instead? There are all sorts of ways you can be out-played. You didn't just lose because your opponents' Queens are overpowered.

Terrain? You said this hobby was only as expensive as any other.
Yes and no. Most of your 'starting' terrain can be household items. Books. Soda-cans. Small boxes. Whatever.

If you look around the internet, you can also find a few tutorials on how to make some really decent-looking terrain. Made out of what you essentially would have otherwise thrown in the bin.

Only GW Terrain actually costs you any significant money. Making your own should only cost a few dollars tops - and your time and effort.

How much terrain do I need?
Up to 12 pieces is the official word. However, that can get crowded pretty fast if you've got big pieces.

A better guide is roughly anywhere between 25-33% of the board should be covered by terrain. On a standard 6x4' table, you would want anywhere between 6-8' square of terrain. It seems like a lot. But if you divide that up to 7-12 pieces, it doesn't look like much. Or you could just put a 2x3' block in the centre of the board.

I don't like using Special Characters, and I think Allies are dumb.
Your opponents probably don't. Special Characters are pretty powerful and there's no real reason that you shouldn't be using them if your opponents are. That's not to say that all Special Characters are good - they aren't - and certainly don't get the impression that just because it's a Special Character that you need to use it - you don't. But some of them are still good and they do make certain armies a lot better.

However, Allies, on the other hand. Are often a required part of the game. Some armies just don't have the units required to fend off other units. Does this make the game unfair? Kind of. But, GW doesn't update their entire range at once (it's a big range), and so some units are always going to be better than others. But, allowing Allies is a big step to evening the playing field.

I can't paint.
Like any skill worth having, you get better if you practice. 90% of a good paint job is just brush control - how much paint you put on your brush and where you put it. The other 10% is just colour theory (yeah, it's a thing). The most important tool this author has is a $5 Colour Wheel.

But, on a more serious note, the only real reason that you need to paint is if you want to participate in tournaments. Well, that and painted models just look better - if you've practised, of course.

Unfortunately, painting is a practical skill, not knowledge. The only person who can get you better at painting is you.

Which army is the best?
That's a loaded question. It depends what points limit you're playing at (at 1500 there really isn't one). But, there is no 'best' army. Plasma beats Terminators beats Mech beats Plasma. 40K is much like Rock, Paper, Scissors. None of the armies are 'best', as each army can be countered. Some armies are better than others, but there is no 'best'.

However, as you play the game you will notice that your Codex doesn't have the units that beat another Codex. That's not to say that you haven't won any games, and it's not to say that your opponents' armies haven't lost several games to armies that just aren't yours. It just means that your army can't beat your opponent's army with what you've got available to you. That's why Allies need to be in the game.

Wait, so there are bad Codecies?
Yes. The only Codex that you shouldn't really get is Black Templars. It doesn't work the way it should, and the way it does work...Doesn't. For now, if you like the imagery for Black Templars, certainly buy the models (if you don't buy the models at all, GW will think they're not selling and will think that nobody wants them and they'll keep delaying a new release) and just use the Codex for Blood Angels. Red Templars are a real thing. However, if you paint your Black Templars as Black Templars...You can't really get around it.

Every other Codex should be usable between 1000-1500 points. But, after that you may need to delve into Allies. I wont outright say what these Codecies are, but you'll know if you've got one.

Whoa, back up! You don't have to use the models that the books tell you to?
Nope - the books are only rules on how to play the game, not rules on what colour models you have to buy, and you're allowed to use whatever theme of model you want in order to use them.
If, just for example, you wanted to play a small, powerful army like Grey Knights but prefer to use 'evil' looking models like Chaos Space Marines, it is perfectly fine for you to make up some appropriate Chaos Space Marine models and use them with the Grey Knight rulebook. Just be sure to explain what you're doing to your opponent before you start playing - it's only fair to let them know if you're doing something unusual.

[thereaper]

I like it. Stick it in the first post on the next thread.

That is, of course, assuming someone else doesn't start the thread again.

[thedavo]

Played against my buddy's new Guard army last weekend.

1250pts.

My list:

Warboss - Big Choppa, eavy armour, squig, cybork, twin linked shoota, bosspole
Big Mek - eavy armour KFF
25 shoota boyz w/ 2x big shoota, nob w/fist, eavy armour and bosspole
25 shoota boyz w/ 2x big shoota, nob w/fist, eavy armour and bosspole
20 slugga boyz w/ 2x rokkits, nob w/fist, eavy armour and bosspole
9 tankbustas w/2 tankhammers and 2 bommquigs
12 lootas
dakkajet w/rpj, 3 tl supa-shootas, fighta ace

His list:

Commander w/ a bunch o'stuff
2x infantry platoons - command squadron, 2x guardsmen squads w/grenade launcher, vox caster, and autocannon, 3x autocannon teams
Sentinel w/multi laser
2x Russes w/ lascannon, heavy bolter sponsons
Techpriest w/servitor

deployment: standard, big guns never tire

I realised very quickly that the only way of getting rid of the Russes was to get into combat with them, so kept trudgings forwards trying to thin out the hail of lasgun and autocannon fire that kept coming my way, and hoping one of my boyz squads made it so a Nob or warboss could punch a hole in them. My lootas took out one of the autocannon team squadrons on turn 1, and survived to turn 2 as he decided to shoot my tankbustas, when they nailed one of the command units. Then they took a Russ to the face and ran off the board. The dakkajet decimated whatever it decided to shoot at (9 S6 BS3 TL shots does that against guard!), unfortunately I couldn't get a Waaagh! off before my Warboss got shot to death. Had a big chunk of boyz left at the end (one shoota mob pretty much unscathed, the other two mobs at about half strength), with my Big Mek's shoota boy mob having blown up both the Russes (one being punched by the Nob, the other by the Big Mek) and taking down his Tech priest. Win for the Greenskins, but with better deployment it would have been a lot closer - sticking a Russ in each corner instead of them both in the middle would have worked slight better for him. It's crazy how much firepower guard can put out, especially with Orders, so I think focusing on the command squads to eliminate FRFSRF helped, as did trying to thin out the autocannons.

[Timberwolf]

I'm playing a doubles tournament and I'm having a bit of a quandary about my list. I don't know who I am going to partner, if I can't find anyone I'll have to go wit whoever I'm put with, which will be fine, although it does lend a bit of uncertainty to the list building process.

I'm going to take my space wolves. The problem is is that 600 points of Space Wolves is pretty easy to build something nice, safe, reliable and, to be honest, dull to play.

Here's my thinking at the moment.

Spoiler

Show

Rune Priest 120
Runic Armour
Living Lightning
JotWW

5x Wolf Guard 150
5x Combi Meltas
Drop Pod

Grey Hunters 95
Plasma gun

Grey Hunters 95
Plasma gun

Long Fangs 140
5x Missile Launcher

It's pretty much completely standard. The Wolf Guard's in there because we've all seen RP's standard 500 point Guard list with 2 Russes and you can bet someone'll try to break things by bringing a Land Raider.

Anyway, I digress, what can I do with 600 points and Space Wolves that's a bit different ? I've tried Loganwing as a thought experiment, a Wolf Guard Battle Leader with Thunderwolves, Landspeeder spam, squeezing in a Vindicator (rejected because it'll be Lascannon bait) and a Dreadnought list.

Any suggestions gratefully received.

[Wraith]

@Cheesegear:May I offer one more addition to your intro? It's one you touch upon, but it's something that seems to take a surprisingly long amount of time for a lot of players to realise (myself included!)

Wait, so there are bad Codecies?
Yes. The only Codex that you shouldn't really get is Black Templars. It doesn't work the way it should, and the way it does work...Doesn't. For now, if you like the imagery for Black Templars, certainly buy the models (if you don't buy the models at all, GW will think they're not selling and will think that nobody wants them and they'll keep delaying a new release) and just use the Codex for Blood Angels. Red Templars are a real thing. However, if you paint your Black Templars as Black Templars...You can't really get around it.

Whoa, back up! You don't have to use the models that the books tell you to?
Nope - the books are only rules on how to play the game, not rules on what colour models you have to buy, and you're allowed to use whatever theme of model you want in order to use them.
If, just for example, you wanted to play a small, powerful army like Grey Knights but prefer to use 'evil' looking models like Chaos Space Marines, it is perfectly fine for you to make up some appropriate Chaos Space Marine models and use them with the Grey Knight rulebook. Just be sure to explain what you're doing to your opponent before you start playing - it's only fair to let them know if you're doing something unusual.