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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Quote Originally Posted by LeSwordfish View Post
    Also: Deep strike/scout the Vendetta, and hope I can kill the worst of the anti-tank off before it arrives: Bad Idea, or merely Poor Idea?
    Mandatory idea.

    All Flyers must start in reserve. So no Scout move, but you have your choice of Deep Strike, Outflank or normal reserves.

    I wouldn't worry too much about most anti-tank. All you need to worry about are fortifications and other Flyers (and Hydras, but they're kind of terrible now).
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    My area was surprised to see them too when I first started, largely because of sticker shock. Then I proceeded to dominate the metagame until people did load up on meltaguns and lascannons, at which point I fell back to about a 50% win rate. Mech is beatable if you're prepared for it. If you're not, it isn't.
    This is identical to my experience as well. I tried my 'fun' Scout and Bike Lists during 5th, and they didn't work once my opponents started going to Mech. The Bike List was okay, but it just wasn't good enough. Then I bit the bullet myself and invested in Plaserbacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Final_Stand View Post
    Something I've been considering. Hover allows a Flyer to move like a Fast Skimmer. However, since it isn't Zooming, does this mean that it can be shot at with full ballistic skill, even without Skyfire?

    It specifies Zooming Flyers cannot be assaulted. Therefore, presumably Hovering Flyers can be assaulted.
    Yes and yes.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2012-07-08 at 04:43 PM.
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  3. - Top - End - #123
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    I'm thinking of running a Nurgle Chaos Space Marines with allied Nurgle Chaos Daemons army. What sort of effective anti-vehicle options do Chaos Space Marines have in the current meta?
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    smile Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    list idea for the new edition, this is a 3000pt list, but i can easily scale it up or down depending on the size of the games:

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    HQ:
    Dante: 225pt


    sanguinor exemplar of the host: 275pt

    Elites:
    3 sanguinary priests: 270pt

    power swords
    jump packs

    sanguinary priest: 90pt
    power sword
    jump pack
    sanguinary priests accompany SG squads

    chaplain: 130pt

    jump pack
    melta bombs
    attached to death company

    Troops:
    sanguinary guard: 275pt

    death masks
    infernus pistol
    power fist
    chapter banner
    squad accompanies dante and deep strikes

    sanguinary guard: 245pt
    death masks
    infernus pistol
    power fist

    sanguinary guard: 245pt

    death masks
    infernus pistol
    power fist

    sanguinary guard: 245pt

    death masks
    infernus pistol
    power fist
    remaining three squads embark in the storm ravens and outflank

    death company: 370pt

    7 marines
    jump packs
    4 power swords
    infernus pistol
    2 power fists

    Heavy support:
    storm raven: 230pt

    multimelta
    tl plasma cannons
    hurricane bolter

    storm raven: 200pt

    multimelta
    tl plasma cannons

    storm raven: 200pt

    multimelta
    tl plasma cannons

    total: 3000pt


    i haven't yet seen SG in action yet in the new rules, so i have no idea how this list will run, any input is welcome

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    A series of unfortunate nerfs; A Dark Eldar Tale.

    So, in 5th, a most glorious Codex was published. Good fluff. Fantastic rules. And some of the best models I've ever seen. This Codex was Dark Eldar, and it was amazing. I bought half a dozen Venoms, a few Raiders, and a trio of Ravagers. I took this army to tournaments. It was a blast! This was no stand-and-shoot Space Marine Parking Lot. This wasn't a war-of-attrition-wait-'til-they-run-out-of-bullets match playing with Imperial Guard. I moved practically every unit, every turn. And sometimes I even Assaulted. Something which I, a recent Parking Lot Space Marines player never did, at least, not if I didn't absolutely have to.

    And then 6th came. And my tournament-placing Dark Eldar army, the army that won me two Razorwings, my favourite army that I've ever played, sits in it's case. Waiting...Waiting...

    Well, what happened?

    The vehicles are made out of paper. Glancing Hits actually matter now. And Venoms have a total of 2 Hull Points. Venoms used to be able to laugh off Bolter rounds since 'Glancing Hits don't count', now, they can't shrug off Glancing Hits anymore since two of them and your Venom goes down in smoke. Welcome to Bolter fire.
    Dark Eldar used to be a unique and special snow flake. Flickerfields were the bomb. Now, everyone has 5+ Jink. While this isn't a nerf, per se, it means that Dark Eldar aren't better than everybody else, it's means they're the same. As in, no advantage to being Dark Eldar. So Venoms are even more pointless. Since Raiders get Flickerfields too, what's the point in Venoms now? Lots of Shuriken Cannons? Really?

    So, Venom spam no longer works. Staple of the Dark Eldar competitive lists.

    Transport nerf. Vehicles can only go 6" if you want to disembark. Fast? Doesn't matter. Open-Topped? Doesn't matter. Your vehicles are slower if you actually want to get out - like Assaulting. For like, Wyches.

    Run nerf. You can't Charge if you Run. Period. The best roll for Combat Drugs now does nothing. Well, it lets you get closer to your enemy so they can get into Rapid Fire range easier, or Charge you easier. Poor Wyches. With Fleet, you should be Charging ~9". Under 5th, you could usually Charge 11".

    5th Ed. Vehicle 12", jump 2", Fleet 5+", Assault 6" = 25" Just enough for a first turn Assault with your entire army. If you're unlucky you should Fleet 4. Which is 24" which is perfect if both you and your opponent are pushing Deployments.

    6th Ed. Vehicle 6", jump 6", Fleet-Charge 9" = 21". Or, 3" away from your opponent on the first turn. I suppose if you can't charge you'd be running which could get you 12", or 2" away from your opponent. Either way; Welcome to Rapid Fire city. Population none. Because everybody died.

    Overwatch. You want to Charge anything with Boltguns? Be my guest. If they have the capacity to shoot at full BS, you're ruined.

    So, between Transport Nerf, Fleet/Run Nerf, and Overwatch. Wyches no longer work. A staple of the Dark Eldar competitive lists. Wyches can still ruin vehicles though - but they could do that before, and in the first turn.

    Razorwings. Are. Flyers. That's your explanation.
    Ravagers no longer work. A staple of the Dark Eldar competitive lists.

    The biggest nerf though? The biggest? You can't Assault from Reserve. Webway Portals are borderline junk now.


    So, Dark Eldar used to be Venoms, a whole lot of Trueborn and/or Warriors, a few units of Wyches and some Ravagers. And it was excellent. Due to a series of nerfs, most of that entire army is now worthless. Money well spent.

    Between 5th=>6th, most armies didn't have to buy more than a box or two. Not including Flyers. Because nobody foresaw the stupidity of "Nothing can kill Flyers except Flyers.", in retrospect it makes absolute sense that that's the way it would be, but nobody saw it coming. Point is, a lot of people were bitching and moaning that 6th would make their army unplayable, pretty much everyone was proven wrong...Except Dark Eldar players.

    Dark Eldar practically have to rejig their entire army, and that's just to compete on the same level as everybody else (Flickerfields for everyone!!!). Not to be 'amazing', but just so that they don't get immediately ruined in the first two turns. I hope you brought your Haemonculi to get FNP ASAP. You're going to need it.


    So. Yeah. If you're starting Dark Eldar brand new for 6th, you'll be fine.
    But if you're old, and transposing your army from 5th to 6th, you'll be pissed, because nothing you own (except Trueborn/Warriors) works anymore.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2012-07-09 at 05:48 AM.
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  6. - Top - End - #126
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Cheesegear, I think you may be a little mixed up about the vehicle disembarkation rules.

    When you jump out, you place a each model in turn (generally with a 1" base) next to an access point and then make a normal move (generally 6"). This occurs whether or not the vehicle has moved that turn, differently to the 5th edition 2" disembark. It doesn't sound like much, but it means the 6th ed calculations become:

    Vehicle 6", Model base 1", Move 6", Fleet-Charge 9" = 22" a nerf of only 3" on the previous edition, not the 8" you calculate. And that's not including the old "Deploy Raiders sideways and then turn them 90 degrees" trick that gains another 2" or so.

    As an aside, I have never seen a Dark Eldar 1st turn assault actually occur. Everyone I know feared them enough to always deploy 2" or more behind their deployment zone, so it just didn't happen. This isn't as much as a nerf as you seem to think.

    Everything else you said I agree with though. They got smacked hard, just not (in my opinion) anywhere near fatally. It's just looking like there are going to be more Razorwings, Voidravens, and Raiders in the meta rather than Ravagers and Venoms.
    Last edited by Voidhawk; 2012-07-09 at 05:38 AM.
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  7. - Top - End - #127
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Voidhawk View Post
    Cheesegear, I think you may be a little mixed up about the vehicle disembarkation rules.

    Vehicle 6", Model base 1", Move 6", Fleet-Charge 9" = 22" a nerf of only 3" on the previous edition, not the 8" you calculate.
    Slightly off. Since I did check after you brought up that I was wrong, and I always double check to either admit my mistake or repeat myself.

    You can move 1" away from the vehicle, and then move normally, but you can't move more than 6" away from the exit point. Essentially Disembarkation Move = 1+5". Not 1" then 6".

    Vehicle 6", Move 1+5", Fleet-Charge 9" = 21". So, still worse.

    But, factor in the rest of the game. The fact that Raiders/Venoms could move 12", meant that you were less reliant on getting your random Fleet roll off in the long run in the later turns, or maybe you wanted to shoot and then Assault because you could.

    Vehicles move 6", means that now you're more reliant on random rolls. And relying on random rolls is bad.

    ...And that's not even counting Wyches coming out of Webway Portals.

    As an aside, I have never seen a Dark Eldar 1st turn assault actually occur.
    I, personally have done it a number of times. It requires that you roll a '1' for your Combat Drugs (I used the Duke, and he's not needed anymore in 6th), and you need to go first.

    This isn't as much as a nerf as you seem to think.
    Not for most people, no. But for anyone who ever did try the First Turn Assault, fact is, you can't do it anymore at all.

    They got smacked hard, just not (in my opinion) anywhere near fatally.
    Oh, that wasn't the point of the story. Right down the bottom at the end is the point. What worked in 5th for DE, doesn't work anymore. And DE have to change their entire armies. They still have one or two workable builds, but they're not the same as the workable builds before, and that makes people mad because they need to spend more money, or they just case/quit their Dark Eldar. The workable builds for most other armies is take what you had before, add Flyers.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2012-07-09 at 06:07 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Quote Originally Posted by gabado View Post
    list idea for the new edition, this is a 3000pt list, but i can easily scale it up or down depending on the size of the games:

    Spoiler
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    HQ:
    Dante: 225pt


    sanguinor exemplar of the host: 275pt

    Elites:
    3 sanguinary priests: 270pt

    power swords
    jump packs

    sanguinary priest: 90pt
    power sword
    jump pack
    sanguinary priests accompany SG squads

    chaplain: 130pt

    jump pack
    melta bombs
    attached to death company

    Troops:
    sanguinary guard: 275pt

    death masks
    infernus pistol
    power fist
    chapter banner
    squad accompanies dante and deep strikes

    sanguinary guard: 245pt
    death masks
    infernus pistol
    power fist

    sanguinary guard: 245pt

    death masks
    infernus pistol
    power fist

    sanguinary guard: 245pt

    death masks
    infernus pistol
    power fist
    remaining three squads embark in the storm ravens and outflank

    death company: 370pt

    7 marines
    jump packs
    4 power swords
    infernus pistol
    2 power fists

    Heavy support:
    storm raven: 230pt

    multimelta
    tl plasma cannons
    hurricane bolter

    storm raven: 200pt

    multimelta
    tl plasma cannons

    storm raven: 200pt

    multimelta
    tl plasma cannons

    total: 3000pt


    i haven't yet seen SG in action yet in the new rules, so i have no idea how this list will run, any input is welcome
    Death Masks are a waste of points, really. They kind of suck, since most enemies have high Ld, and Dante gives the unit he joins a free Death Mask.

    I'd probably remove the Death Company too, in favour of maybe Terminators or something, just so you have a Sergeant in your army. If you have a Sergeant, they get the Sanguinor's blessing bonus. If there's only one sergeant, you know who's getting it. If the only Sergeant is packing Terminator Armour, carrying a Storm Shield and Thunder Hammer, and has a Priest backing him up, you basically got yourself a cheap Captain there, who just won't die.

    Also, where's the Librarians?

    Also, is it just me, or is Corbulo not amazing now?! 2+ Feel No Pain?

    I feel sad that the Blood Angels themselves are not aware of the rules of the universe they exist in. If they were aware of them, they'd give let Corbulo wear Artificer or Terminator Armour, and give Dante a sword instead of an axe, since he has such a high initiative.

    Interestingly, though, Dante's rules state that the Axe Mortalis is a MC Power Weapon, not axe. So, if you converted him to have a sword, not an Axe, the Axe Mortalis would be a MC Power Sword. I guess that's cool for successor Chapters using Dante as their Chapter Master.
    Last edited by bluntpencil; 2012-07-09 at 09:27 AM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Today is a special day. Today, I give you a gift:

    Hootman’s Likely Misguided Thoughts on Orks
    OR
    Orks VS 6th Edition: Still Needs Moar Dakka


    WARNING: This is quite long. I have included a TL;DR section below for those of you without the time or inclination to read everything I wrote.

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    Having finally read the majority of the new rulebook, I have come to two major decisions.
    1. I think, overall, GW did a good job with the new rules. They look good on paper, and I should be able to take them for a test drive this weekend.
    2. There are several rules that make me wish I could froth on command in order to properly display my distaste for GW’s design choices. These should become clear later.

    I DO feel that Orks benefit a lot from the new rules, and may even be able to put out at least one very competitive build even without Allies. However, the codex is from 4th Edition, and it definitely shows it between the lack of flexibility in “good” unit choices and poor ranged anti-tank options. Enough of my general ramblings, and on to more specific ones!

    Codex-Wide Issues
    WAAAGH!: Once per game, any Orks not on bikes become Fleet. This can be amazing with the new Fleet rules, and is probably the only way you can reliably get into Assault now that the boyz are removed from the front of the mob when killed instead of the back.

    Mob Rule: All ork-only units can use their model-count as their Leadership, and are Fearless when they have 11+ models. Fearless is sadly not as useful as it seems, because Fearless now has two big weaknesses: you cannot go to ground, and you cannot choose to fail morale due to Our Weapons Are Useless. Man, I love getting tarpitted by a Dreadnought after my PK Nob has been sniped due to Precise Shots--better not botch my Look Out, Sir's. On the other hand, if you're down to your last few models and you WANT to fail, you may actually use Mob Rule to LOWER your Leadership and pray you escape combat unscathed. Nobz Mobz of any sort have a model-limit of 10, so they're almost always relying on their own (unimpressive) Leadership and a Bosspole to keep themselves in line, which kind of sucks.

    Furious Charge: When you charge, gain +1 Strength. You no longer gain the +1 Initiative that was (for Boyz) only useful against Necrons and Tau, or (for Nobz) able to put your non-PK models up to the ever-popular I4, which is pretty lame. Since I never bought Stikkbombs, though, anyone who wasn't hanging with the Warboss was frequently I1 anyways due to charging through Terrain. Slight nerf, mostly to Nobz. All Orks continue to loath any combat that isn't decided the moment the boyz charge in, because their Strength drops once your turn ends.

    Powerklaws: The ever-faithful S8+, I1, Orky 'kan opener'. Still your only option for anti-armor in melee. GW didn't even give Big Choppas an AP value, let alone regular Choppas, so if you want to bring down anything with an armor save, you'd better warm up your Look Out, Sir! dice. Any foe with half a brain will be gunning for your PK Nobs with every shot they can, and you barely have an armor save. I suspect this will be a theme...


    HQ’s
    Warboss: An S10 Powerklaw, with 5 or 6 attacks on the charge, is still one of the deadliest things in the game. If you put him on a Bike he becomes T6, which is great for leading the charge if you stick him to a unit of Nob Bikerz with a Painboy. He'll probably eat a lot of anti-tank fire if you don't have a half-dozen Battlewagons, so that Feel No Pain will be a Gork-send (Or possibly Mork-send). I'm still a little upset that (unlike Marines) Biker Bosses can't have Biker Troops, and Wazdakka still doesn't have an Invul or S5. FUN FACT: Until they edit the FAQ, Warbosses and Nobz on Bikes retain the WAAAGH! rule, and thus are Fleet for that one turn where you NEED to reach assault. Bikes have Hammer of Wrath (unmodified Strength, but still really good). I wonder what happens if you pop a Rhino with Hammer of Wrath attacks. Do you get to Pile-In into combat with the contents at your initiative? How do the contents feel about eating 5-15 Powerklaw attacks?

    Big Mek: Kustom Force Fields are still good for Green Tides, but they've lost about 17% of their luster in Kan Wall and Battlewagon Blitz lists. The Shokk Attack gun remains hilariously unreliable, but as an AP2 Large Blast (Ordinance too), it's your only option if you want to kill 2+ Armor at range aside from Drown It In Bullets. Ordinance rules are buffed by the removal of "half-Strength if the hole's off the hull" rule, but with randomly rolled Strength, you're generally better shooting at Infantry anyways. The lack of Bike + Shokk Attack Gun = Relentless still upsets me, but is nothing new.

    Weirdboy: Mastery Level 1, random power every turn, no access to the shiny new Psychic Powers, and still no gear upgrades. The 5+ Deny The Witch roll for one unit is not worth it by any stretch. Despite the Ork psychic powers being pretty awesome, the randomness is dangerous at best, and the lack of defensive wargear means you get sniped pretty easily. Take...anything else.

    ELITES
    Nobz: Forever the workhorses of the Ork army, and one unit per Warboss can be treated as Troops. Biker Nobz are amazing again: Proper T5, W2, 4+ Armor AND moving 4+ Cover AND 5+ Feel No Pain if you buy the Painboy (ALWAYS BUY THE PAINBOY), and SCORING if you have a Warboss. In the old days, you played Musical Wounds to maximize them, but with that rule out, you just spend less points on the unit and still get Look Out, Sir! shenanigans because it's a unit of characters. Waaagh! Banners are amazing, especially with a Warboss in the unit, because he benefits too. Trukks aren't too bad for Nobz despite the nerf, but more often you'll want to take a Battlewagon if you're not taking Bikes.

    Meganobz: Why these could not have been made part of the Nob entry, we will never know (and never stop complaining about). Essentially no wargear options, but at least you have 2+ Armor. Slow & Purposeful means no Running and no Overwatch, but is otherwise better than it used to be. These guys NEED a transport to get to the front lines ASAP--pretty much the only unit I heartily recommend Trukks for. Powerklaws remain great, TL Shootas still aren't important in small quantities, and their Stikkbombs make me mad (they're permanently I1 in combat due to PK's). T4 hurts them when the Lascannons and Carnifi come out to play, because they still don't have an Invul. Ideally, plow them into something that only has AP3 or worse and giggle while your opponent can do nothing about it.

    Burna Boyz: Current holder of the Least Likely To Get Assaulted Award for units that aren't Purifiers, Burnas are holding Flamers when they want to shoot and Power Weapons when they don't. No FAQ on whether the Burna is a specific type of Power Weapon, or if using it for Overwatch means it cannot be used as a Power Weapon for that Assault phase (a perfectly logical decision I rather hope they do not come to). I see no reason why you shouldn't abuse the fact that it is an Unspecified Power Weapon in order to call it a Power Lance; S5 AP3 on the (furious) charge is pretty hard to argue with, and if you get charged, you're already dead, so the S3 AP4 is much less of a let down. However, if they ever get FAQ'd, I'll bet they'll be classified as Swords, because GW doesn't like Orks being good anymore (or so it seems from my incredibly biased viewpoint). I can dream, though. You can trade out up to three Burnas for Mekboyz--I would suggest maybe 1-per-5 Burnas purchased should be a Mek to keep your transport running as long as possible. Apparently Mekboys are Characters, so you can also use them to snipe enemy 2+ armor when you occasionally hit with the Kustom Mega Blasta (which, despite the wider Internet's claim to the contrary, is NOT a Blast weapon). Lack of a Dedicated Transport is painful, but if you buy these champs a Battlewagon, those Meks you traded for should keep it going strong.

    Tankbustas: These bad boyz used to be completely unusable due to Glory Hogs, but the new FAQ has changed it all to MAKE SENSE, of all things. Way to go, GW. Every boy has an S8 AP3 Rokkit and Tankbusta Bombs (6+2d6), which are specifically counted as a type of Krak Grenade, so they can be used in combat with Walkers and MC's (the 2d6 obviously not helping vs Monsters). You can trade a Rokkit for a Tankhammer, because always being S10 in close combat is hilarious, and then just pick up some Bomb Squigs so the Hammerboy can still "shoot". It's unclear whether or not the Nob can take the Tankhammer, but his PK is discounted anyways, so you want that instead. No Dedicated Transport, again, which really hinders their initial push into the middle of the field, but otherwise isn't hugely important. Math suggests that you want at least 6 or 7 Rokkits firing in order to have a good chance of busting up light vehicles. Land Raiders and Monoliths still require liberal application PK's, Tankhammers, and Tankbusta Bombs.

    Lootas: The only Elite unit aside from Nob Bikerz that I can say was genuinely buffed, Lootas are heavy weapons specialists that fire anywhere from 1 to 3 shots per turn, each. Throwing out a max of 45 S7 shots should make anyone adjust their target priority, which is ok because Lootas can finally fire while on the move. Sure, they're Snap Shots at BS1, but when you're normally BS2, that's hardly a significant downgrade. This fact also makes using them to shoot down Fliers a no-brainer; if you're going to be BS1 on the move anyways, might as well aim for the highest-prioity targets you can find with your 10 million-billion bullets. No Dedicated Transport, but that's not new. Not as much call for upgrading to Meks, but if you want to load up a 12+ Squad in a Battlewagon and go to town, you should probably include 1 or 2. Lootas are still your best anti-transport (and now anti-flier) unit for their price.

    Kommandos: Orky scouts. With the new rule that Reserves can't charge on the turn they enter the battlefield, Kommandos are pretty much useless. They're main purpose was to sneak PK's and burnas into your opponent's backfield, and while the burnas are still slightly useful, the No Assault rule means these boyz will never survive to attack anything. They CAN still Infiltrate, so they're not useless...just Use Impaired. Lootas, Burnas, and Nobz are all better.


    TROOPS
    Boyz: Two delicious flavors, Shooty and Choppy. Shoota Boyz were and still are the better choice; 18" Assault 2 guns are great even with BS2, because you've got at least 20 of them. Big Shootas just don't seem strong enough to be worth not converting into Lootas, but Rokkits allow you a fair shot at damaging transports while you're slogging up the field trying to get at the tasty troopers inside. If the general meta actually shifts away from Transports entirely (HA!), or your meta has almost no vehicles AV12 or lower, just take the Big Shootas. Always buy a Nob with PK and Bosspole. 'Ard Boyz (Boyz with a 4+ Save) used to be a joke, and very likely still are, because they're costly. 'Ard Nobz, on the other hand, are now pretty good because they can get sniped if you blow a Look Out, Sir!, and it's nice to have a viable armor save instead of none. Boyz are generally supposed to remain as cheap and plentiful as possible. Trukks are crap now, but a load of Shootaboyz in a Battlewagon aren't bad. I usually just slog'em, and they do fine if I keep them in cover or in a Kustom Force Field bubble.

    Grots: The weediest of the weedy, grots are incredibly efficient at only twos things: giving boyz a cover save when there's no KFF, and going to ground next to your objective. And now with the nerf to cover, they're not quite as good at either. Still, they're very cheap (20 wounds with at least 4+ Gone-To-Ground-In-Cover for only 67 points!), so they're probably good enough. I'm a fan.

    Trukks: 10/10/10, Open-Topped and Fast. Holds up to 12 boyz. The Dedicated Transport of the Ork Codex, like the Rhino only flimsier and not available to every unit and it's God-Emperor. Oh well. It used to be great, being all super-fast and open-topped, but now it's mostly a joke. A joke that frequently explodes to no benefit. Unless you're hauling Meganobz, I'd suggest you put the Trukks in the scrap pile.

    FAST ATTACK
    Stormboyz: Stormboyz are basically Choppa Boyz with Rokkitpacks (Jump Packs that occasionally explode...another theme of the Orks). They do NOT have the WAAAGH! rule, so they cannot become Fleet after they've use their Rokkit Packs to get nice and close to the enemy to ensure they're going to get the charge. Luckily, the Rokkit Pack itself grants a free 1d6 inches in addition to your base 12" Jump movement, so they essentially are including a free Run that they can still Assault after. The nerf to Furious Charge makes their Stikkbombs pretty worthless, but the overall buff to Jump Infantry makes them seem quite usable to me. They WILL get cut down to any concentrated fire, so try to only assault things that can't fire Overwatch at normal BS. Make sure you bring 15-20 per unit, or none at all. As always, Powerklaw Nob with Bosspole.

    Warbuggies: 10/10/10, Open-Topped and Fast Squadron (1-3). The change to Vehicle Squadrons may just make Twin-Linked Rokkit Buggies a better choice than Twin-Linked Rokkit Koptas. They're certainly cheaper, and Fast Gun-Vehicles are still good. Grot Riggers aren't really worth buying, unless you have a lot of Meks, because the Buggies only have 2 Hull Points and can die to small arms fire. Wartrakks remain excellent, making it so you can safely zip into cover for that all-important save. I have 4 Warbuggies sitting in my conversion box, so now that I've noticed how good they might be, I'll probably be trying to hurry them onto the field.

    Warbikerz: Boyz, except they go really fast, have good armor, free 4+ Cover, guns that can hit AND wound, and cost about 4 times as much. 100% worth it. T5, 4+ is pretty fantastic, and their speed makes them more than just a Powerklaw Delivery System--they deliver it damn fast, though. Decent as Fast Attack, but they're great as Troops. If you want buckets of bikes, grab Wazdakka and get your Speed Freak on. Otherwise, consider taking Nob Bikers instead (as Troops, with a Warboss, also on a bike).

    Deffkoptas: Jetbikes are pretty awesome, and that's exactly what these are. The new Jink save will help slightly with anything AP4 or better, but the fact that they're now True T5 and immune to Instant-Death-By-Krak-Missiles means their two wounds last much longer. They can also take Powerklaws, Scout, and Hit & Run (though their low Initiative is a mild hindrance), in order to maximize their runnin' and gunnin' and krumpin'. Still one of the better options for medium and heavy tank-hunting.


    HEAVY SUPPORT
    Battlewagon: 14/12/10, Open-Topped Tank. Holds up to 20 boyz. Probably the best ground-bound transport tank in the game, because unlike the Land Raider, it's CHEAP: maybe 130 points if you buy all the good stuff without going crazy. Speaking of the good stuff, Deff Rollas will NEVER not be funny. Re-roll dangerous terrain tests AND deal 1d6 S10 AP- hits automatically to anything you Tank Shock or Ram? And another 1d6 hits if that unit tries to Death Or Glory? Ramming other vehicles with the Battlewagon from about 2 inches away is the best feeling, because there's nothing your opponent can do about it, and if it's a full transport and it happens to explode, GUESS WHO GETS RUN OVER BY THE DEFF ROLLA? I don't know if the Deff Rolla increase the effective Hull Size for the purpose of disembarkation, but if it does, it's worth the price for that alone. This thing can even pretend to be a short-range, S7 Leman Russ when you buy a Killkannon, and still carry half-a-dozen boyz into the fray. Dedicated Transport for Nobz and Meganobz, and Heavy Support Transport for everyone else. The only bad thing about Battlewagons is that it's impossible to have enough of them for all of your boyz and your elites if you don't spam Nobz...though the new Multiple Detachments rules for going over 2000 points may actually help with that a lot. Can you imagine fielding 10 of these squeezed into exactly 2000 points? Or with a little wiggle room at 2500?

    Deff Dread: 12/12/10, Walker. Very cheap. Must take 2 additional weapons, but even the most expensive of them only brings you to the price of a basic Vanilla Marine Dreadnought with WAY better combat skills. S10 with Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons, and a maximum of 6 attacks on the charge. You still get up to 5 of them on the field under 2000 points, and 2 of those will be Scoring (Each Big Mek allows you to take one as Troops). If they weren't competing with Battlewagons for slots, I'd probably already own several. The new rules for grenades will likely really hurt Deff Dreads, which is a shame, because they don't see enough play as it is.

    Killa Kans: 11/11/10, Walker Squadron (1-3). The weedier cousins to the Deff Dread, these walkers are piloted by Grots instead of Boyz. They still wield DCCW's and are S10 with 3 attacks on the charge, so anything they run into will be feeling some pain. They are even weaker to grenades than Deff Dreads due to lower armor, but their numbers should generally make up for it. Their NEW big weakness is the nerf to cover--it used to be that you could roll out 9 of these in front of a KFF Big Mek and a big Green Tide, and everyone would have 4+ Cover saves for the long slog to the front lines. Now, however, with only 2 Hull Points and cover being 5+ standard, they're much weaker to glancing hits from medium arms fire. Not even the new vehicle squadron rules can make up for that, I suspect. Anyways, they also have a mandatory weapon purchase, and I suggest either the Rokkit Launcha (the Grot BS 3 is amazing for Orks) or the Grotzooka (S6 Heavy 2 Blast. Yes, Heavy TWO). Always run them in 3's. Combining them with Deff Dreads and the new Multiple Detachment rules, entire armies of nothing but Meks and Walkers are now potentially viable at 2000 points, though it's hard to say whether they'd be good for super-tourneys. Seeing the look on someone's face as you pull out 22 Walkers and then at least 500 MORE POINTS worth of stuff would probably be worth any entrance fee, though. Did I go over how cheap Ork Walkers are?

    Flash Gitz: Nobz with snazzy guns (called Snazzgunz, obviously) and 4+ armor. They used to be able to pre-measure their shots, but now that everyone can do that, they've been given Ignores Cover instead. This doesn't seem like much, but once you slap on their many (pricey) available upgrades, they become S6 AP 1d6-1 Assault 2 (Get's Hot!)--THIS is a weapon most people will want to hide from, and now they can't! Unfortunately, the cost of this unit will easily top 500 if you buy every upgrade, their special character, and/or a transport to put them in (No Dedicated Transport again. ARGH). Painboys are an option, and I would ways recommend them--you've already put so many points into the unit, may was well put in a few more to double its survivability.

    Big Gunz: Artillery Battery (1-3), T7 W2. Artillery got so buffed by the new rules, I wish I could just take all Big Gunz and forget about any other anti-tank I might ever think I need. There are 3 types of Big Gun: Kannons, which are just anyone else's Frag & Krak Missiles with a 36" range; Lobbas, which are S5 AP5 Large Blast Barrage and great for firing from behind walls; and Zzap Guns, which are like the Shokk Attack gun in that they roll randomly for Strength, are AP2, and occasionally kill the gunner. Kannons are the cheapest and also the best in my opinion--the Ork army always lacks anti-tank capability, and if there's nothing else to fire at, you can always lob Frag Missiles instead. Ammo Runts are a must no matter which Gun you buy, because they let you reroll to hit once per Runt. Unfortunately, sometimes that means you'll use them all on the first turn, but for only 9 points, one reroll per Gun isn't a bad price. You can also toss a Runtherd on to the unit to get their Leadership up and keep them firing for as long as you have Grot Krew. Some day I intend to field an all-grot army (probably lead by Old Zogwort and Mad Dok Grotsnik, for maximum silliness), and put some 250 tiny bodies on the field for less than 1200 points. I can't imagine beating anyone, except by accident, but how cool would that be?

    Looted Wagon: 11/11/10, Open-Topped Tank, holds up to 12 boyz. Literally a tank stolen from any other army (traditionally a Rhino, but any vehicle will work), the Looted Wagon is a great opportunity for modeling, but little else. The 'Don't Press Dat!' rule means that 1/6 of the time you drive off at top speed and don't get to shoot or have troops disembark, and for costing the same price as a Rhino, having two big disadvantages (I count Open-Topped, especially now that Assaulting out of transports has been nerfed) is a major turn-off. You could buy a big Boomgun (S8 AP3 Large Blast) and actually do fairly well do with its 36" range, but losing all transport capacity and taking up your highly sought-after Heavy Support slots for something a Battlewagon can do much better for a few more points just seems foolish to me. They're not even Dedicated Transports for anyone--aside from fluff (or goofing around), I just don't see the point in taking them.


    SPECIAL CHARACTERS
    Ghazghkull Thraka: Meganob Boss. I guess it just goes to show you, no matter how big a boss you are, you're still going to be subject to stupid rules changes that don't get fixed in the FAQ. Thraka is still the biggest and the toughest (except for my Biker Boss, lol), and he still hits like a Deff Rolla on a Battlebarge, but his Big Special Power has been severely nerfed. His power is this: you may call your Waaagh! at any time after the first game turn, and it lasts for one full game turn. All non-fleeing units are Fearless, Thraka becomes 2+ Invulnerable, and all Orks automatically roll a 6 to Run and are Fleet. This used to be amazing--roll up 13" in a Red vehicle, jump out of the Open-Top 2.99", Run 6", and Assault 6". 27.99", with only Dark Eldar able to match that speed if they were lucky (though they could do it on the first turn). Now, with the change to Fleet, you just get Fearless and an Invulnable Thraka, and the third part goes to waste 90+% of the time. Sure, the first two are good, but it was that 6" Fleet Run you bought him for. DON'T FORGET THE BEST PART: Because Thraka has Slow & Purposeful, HE CAN'T EVEN GET THAT 6" RUN! And his model is so cool too. I guess I can always use him as an extra-large and nasty Meganob.

    Mad Dok Grotsnik: Painboy Boss. When I first read the new Rage rule, I was ecstatic. After checking my rulebook, however, my Waaagh! came crashing down--Grotsnik does NOT, in fact, have the Rage rule. Nor does he grant it to the unit his is with, as I thought he would. Instead, he just gets all the bad parts of the old rule (running forward and getting kited by anything he can't catch) and none of the good of the new one. He's still Fearless (big whoop, so is any big squad of boyz), and he grants FNP to his squad--THIS is still amazing, especially with 'Ard Boyz or a KFF providing a blanket 5+ Cover save. He can also give any unit Cybork Body for 5pts/model, which can result in both awesome things like Cybork Meganobz, and silly things like Cyber-Grots. He's still good if you field him just right, but anything other than that and you'll probably end up screwing yourself over at one point or another.

    Wazdakka Gutsmek: Biker Boss. Now at true T6, Wazdakka is the best Special Character the Orks have. He makes Warbikerz into Troops (not Nob Bikerz, though, so you'll still need a Biker Warboss to make the 'ardest unit in the book (and possibly the game) Scoring. His bike is cool, but the gun is only somewhat useful, because it's BS2 but not Twin-Linked. He can also repair vehicles with his Mek's Tools, which is really only useful if what he wants to charge is right next to said vehicle, because like almost all Orks, close combat is where he belongs.

    Old Zogwort: The Weird-Boss, Zogwort unfortunately doesn't give you Weirdboy Elites, or some kind of variant Madboy troops whose special abilities include random movement and occasionally nuking your entire army from space by accident. What he does give you is a boatload of Poison (2+) attacks at S4 on the charge (re-rolling versus Marines and Necrons, yay), some of them at flat Initiative 4 (which isn't effected by the Furious Charge nerf). He's also a psyker, and thus can randomly do any number of hilarious things like blowing off his own head, or teleporting into a solid cliff face, or transforming enemy Independent Characters into Squigs. That last one is his own special power, and you can always choose to try it instead of rolling randomly, which is pretty cool. Unfortunately, it does only work on Independent Characters--Guard and Nids are mostly immune, and everyone who isn't Blood Angels or Space Wolves should be able to keep their most important characters out of the way until he's dead. It CAN be used while Zogwort is in close combat (or target a character locked in close combat), which is especially amazing when it comes to challenges, and it only needs to work once to be totally worth it. He is number 3 or 4 on my list of models to kustom-build, because I recently acquired a nice bit of shed snakeskin, and I'm going to decorate the hell out of him.

    Boss Snikrot: Kommando Boss. I bought my Snikrot model as soon as I started playing orks, and I've used him in almost every single game. He wasn't perfect, but he could sneak my Warboss to any table edge I wanted, so he always cleaned up the messes the rest of the boyz left lying around. This now has to change, because his special ability is utterly useless. Ambush was functionally a special Outlfank that allowed you to bring him on from any table edge automatically. When you could come out of nowhere and assault anything your opponent happened to leave lying around and obliterate it, completely changing the face of the game....oh, that was amazing. The New Reserves shoots all of that in the foot. Then, it reloads, and pumps another 17 clips into its face. I really hope GW gives us an FAQ fix that gives Snikrot "able to assault when he comes in" like Boss Zagstukk or Vanguard Veterans. Or a new Codex--that might help. Until then, Snikrot's going to have to sit on my shelf.

    Boss Zagstrukk: Stormboy Boss. Zagstruk MUST Deepstrike onto the field, and unlike Snikrot, he may Assault on the turn he lands. He also counts as having a Powerklaw that strikes at Initiatitive (3, now, instead of the Furious Charge 4 it used to be) instead of his normal S4 attacks whenever he charges. He even comes with a 4+ save and Cybork Body, something most of the other special characters desperately need. When he Deepstrikes, if he and his boyz assault, you automatically lose 1d3 of them before combat (counts for resolution, sadly) to crash landings. At any time, if the Stormboyz would fail a morale test, instead one boy is automatically executed and you count as having passed the test. Between these two special rules, I would always highly suggest bringing as many Stormboyz as you can afford with Zagstruk, both to keep yourself from killing all of your own orks before the enemy has a chance, and to make sure you've got the fighting strength to pulp anything your opponent has on the field.

    Kaptin Badrukk: Flash Git Boss, and Freeboota Kaptin Extraordinaire. With a 3+ Armor save, 5+ Invulnerable save, and 5+ Feel No Pain save if you bought the Painboy as part of the Flashgits unit (ALWAYS BUY PAINBOYS), Badrukk is easily the most survivable special character (aside from Thraka). He comes with 3 of his own personal Ammo Runts, which is great, as well as his own Super Special Gun: DA RIPPA. Weighing in at S7 AP2 Assault 3 (Gets Hot!, and Ignores Cover thanks to his Gitfinda), Da Rippa is also possibly the best gun in the Ork army (mostly because with those Ammo Runts it actually stands a chance of hitting). So best armor, best gun...the only thing holding him back is the fact that a full squad of Flash Gits is roughly 500 points once you factor in the Painboy (YAY PAINBOYS), upgrades to the Snazzguns, and a Battlewagon to put them all in. Don't forget that the Battlewagon also makes them take up TWO Heavy Support slots. In large games, especially where you're taking Multiple Detachments and aren't taking big squads of Nob Bikerz, Flash Gits can be amazing. Otherwise, unfortunately, it's just too expensive to field them both outside of Apocalyptic points values.


    FORGEWORLD
    There is so much stuff that I could put here, it would be faster for you to just go find a copy of Imperial Armor 8 and read the whole thing. Not everything in there is good (or even always usable), but it's certainly fun. The Dreadmob List is really cool, and is definitely what you want to look into if you're interested in all-walker lists for Orks. You can field something like 29 walkers per Detachment (18 Scoring), which is insane. There is ONE unit I simply must rave about, however....

    Grot Tanks: 10/10/10/, Tank squadron (3-6). If you take a Big Mek (and you usually do), you can bring a unit of these adorable little things as an Elites choice with a regular Codex: Orks army. They're cheap, have a 5+ Invulnerable save against everything that isn't Ordinance (or Destroyer, an Apocalypse thing), and can mount Grotzookas. Sure, they can mount other guns, but none of them matter in my opinion. 6-12 S6 Blasts every single turn is utterly insane versus hordes and Monsterous Creatures alike (their large base size makes hitting them a cakewalk), and with the new 'Not-Half-Strength' rule for blasts falling off-center of vehicles, they can even strip the hulls from standard transports with ease. To be perfectly honest, I can't see much of a downside to them--their weak armor and 2 Hull Points is offset by their cheapness and 5+ Invul. Taking any number is guaranteed to make you giggle once they start dropping little pie plates everywhere, and if your opponent doesn't draw blood trying to avoid cussing you out on the day you can't stop rolling Direct Hits, I'll eat my own shoes.




    THIS IS THE END
    ...There. That only took about 2 days to put together. Not bad. I always welcome comments, critiques, and general disagreement, because I am fully aware that this is based on my own personal feelings rather than any objective facts or statistics. Please let me know if you think I've left anything out. I think I'm at least on the right track with most of this, and that really only leaves one thing left...

    Spoiler
    Show
    WAAAAAAAAAAAGGGHHH!!!


    TL;DR -- Some slight exaggerations
    Spoiler
    Show
    HQ's: Biker Bosses rule, Big Meks are good but less mandatory.
    Elites: Nob Bikerz are amazing. Burnas, Lootas, and Grot Tanks are good. Meganobs are only good because 2+ armor. Kommandos suck.
    Troops: Shootaboyz forever. Grots are cheap. Trukks are useless.
    Fast Attack: Everything here has been buffed. Bikerz are better being Troops for Wazdakka.
    Heavy Support: Battlewagons are still good. Big Gunz got a huge buff. Dreads and Kanz are less good.
    Special Characters: Thraka is useless. Grotsnik is meh. Wazdakka is good. Zogwort is funny. Snikrot is WORSE than useless. Zagstruk is decent, but not great. Badrukk is expensive in an expensive unit, but there are worse things you can buy. Like Snikrot.
    Last edited by Hootman; 2012-07-09 at 03:11 PM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    So, I'm getting the 6th edition rulebook, should pick it up this evening. I have question, however. A friend of mine has declared the intention of making a Deathwing Assault force, which allegedly allows him to put half his points into a Deep Strike on turn 1, and then place the balance of his points into drop pods, which would be deployed using the normal reserves rules. Is someone familiar with the Deathwing special rules? And is such a tactic effective? It seems to me like landing on the table with only half your battleforce is going to get you destroyed in detail, assuming it's legal at all.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Hootman View Post
    Today is a special day. Today, I give you a gift:

    Hootman’s Likely Misguided Thoughts on Orks
    OR
    Orks VS 6th Edition: Still Needs Moar Dakka


    WARNING: This is quite long. I have included a TL;DR section below for those of you without the time or inclination to read everything I wrote.

    TL;DR -- Some slight exaggerations
    Spoiler
    Show
    HQ's: Biker Bosses rule, Big Meks are good but less mandatory.
    Elites: Nob Bikerz are amazing. Burnas, Lootas, and Grot Tanks are good. Meganobs are only good because 2+ armor. Kommandos suck.
    Troops: Shootaboyz forever. Grots are cheap. Trukks are useless.
    Fast Attack: Everything here has been buffed. Bikerz are better being Troops for Wazdakka.
    Heavy Support: Battlewagons are still good. Big Gunz got a huge buff. Dreads and Kanz are less good.
    Special Characters: Thraka is useless. Grotsnik is meh. Wazdakka is good. Zogwort is funny. Snikrot is WORSE than useless. Zagstruk is decent, but not great. Badrukk is expensive in an expensive unit, but there are worse things you can buy. Like Snikrot.
    Thanks for that. Opinions on the planes, other than Dakkajets rule? Haven't got, nor can afford a small mountain of bikes, and the Bommer model is ace. Haven't worked out my "standard" 6e list yet, but will probably involve stripping bck on the kans and the dreds, and taking a Dakkajet (cos it's good), or Blitza Bomma (cos it's hilarious) or two.
    i watched your heart turn black.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    What do you think of the Fortification and Allies options for orks? Would a unit of grots on an objective hiding under an Aegis line with quad gun sound like something that would suit your playstyle? Or would it simply take points away from runnin'-and-gunnin'?
    Looking back on sanity from the other side, and laughing really loudly

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    So, I'm getting the 6th edition rulebook, should pick it up this evening. I have question, however. A friend of mine has declared the intention of making a Deathwing Assault force, which allegedly allows him to put half his points into a Deep Strike on turn 1, and then place the balance of his points into drop pods, which would be deployed using the normal reserves rules. Is someone familiar with the Deathwing special rules? And is such a tactic effective? It seems to me like landing on the table with only half your battleforce is going to get you destroyed in detail, assuming it's legal at all.
    Yes, Deathwing Assault allows half of his deathwing units to teleport in turn one. Usually Deathwing has a little Ravenwing support (scouting bikes with teleport homers), meaning that they're very much in your face turn 1, and threatening an assault next turn. If you can't deal with a bunch of hammernators, then yeah it's gonna be good. A 5-man deathwing squad with CMLs is 240, if he goes whole hog, then you're looking a 25 scoring hammernators (and 170 points left over to buy drop pods, an apothecary or a librarian) at 1500 points.

    Secondly, Drop Pod Assault and Deathwing Assault are two different rules. So...I guess he'd be able to get about 3/4 of his terminators out there turn 1? I'd just as soon have the rest hang camp some objectives and toss missiles at any problems. See, the thing about that army, is they don't HAVE to Deathwing Assault. They don't have to all be hammernators, either.
    Last edited by BoSheck; 2012-07-09 at 05:13 PM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    Deathwing Assault force, which allegedly allows him to put half his points into a Deep Strike on turn 1, and then place the balance of his points into drop pods, which would be deployed using the normal reserves rules. Is someone familiar with the Deathwing special rules?
    The Dark Angels codex does indeed allow for that, though you've messed up one important detail. The Deathwing is all Terminators, all the time, and they Deepstrike by teleportation rather than in Drop Pods. It's also not a matter of points, but whole units (regardless of cost).

    "At the beginning of your first turn, you may choose up to half (rounding up) of the Deathwing Terminator squads kept in reserve to make a 'Deathwing Assault'. Units making a Deathwing Assault arrive on the player's first turn using the Deepstrike rules. The arrival of the remaining units held in reserve is rolled for as normal."

    This tactic is now stronger than it used to be, because Reserves rolls have gotten easier in 6th Edition. You may only land on the field piecemeal, but Terminators are so goddamn difficult to kill for an army without the right weapons handy that it hardly matters. And, Terminators are always resiliant in Assault, and their Deepstrike can land them much closer to the places they want to be. If your friend is smart, they will invest in at least one unit of Ravenwing Bikers, because Teleport Homers are a god-send in Deathwing lists. A general reminder: reading the FAQ is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT currently, especially for well-out-of-date Codices like Dark Angels.


    Quote Originally Posted by thedavo View Post
    Thanks for that. Opinions on the planes, other than Dakkajets rule? Haven't got, nor can afford a small mountain of bikes, and the Bommer model is ace. Haven't worked out my "standard" 6e list yet, but will probably involve stripping bck on the kans and the dreds, and taking a Dakkajet (cos it's good), or Blitza Bomma (cos it's hilarious) or two.
    Oh, how clumsy of me to forget those. I'll make sure to edit them in as soon as I have the time. My current impressions, however, are thus:

    Dakkajets: WIN.
    Burnabommas: WUT. NO. WASTE.
    Blitzabommas: HILARIOUS. BUT NO.

    I will try to have a more nuanced response later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voidhawk View Post
    What do you think of the Fortification and Allies options for orks? Would a unit of grots on an objective hiding under an Aegis line with quad gun sound like something that would suit your playstyle? Or would it simply take points away from runnin'-and-gunnin'?
    Ack! All of these new rules that I thought I had accounted for, how could I miss something so obvious! Like the Flyers, I will have to come up with a better response later after doing some reading, but right now, I'm feeling...

    Allies: Initial impressions are poor do to the lack of Battle Brothers, and sparsity of even Allies of Convenience. However, having IG or Necron Allies is a bad idea for NO ONE. Seriously, Meltavets and Ghostarks are everything Orks wish they could do versus tanks, and putting a trio of Leman Russes in your one Heavy slot cannot possibly be a bad idea. The only thing holding me back is points--Orks spend a lot on their HQ's, Nobz, and Fast Attack, and have an absurd reliance on Battlewagons. Luckily, slots do not appear to be an issue, as the Ally gets their own rather than being integrated.

    Fortifications: The one block of rules I know I haven't read yet. Grots + Aegis SOUND hilarious though (2+ Cover when you go to ground? Hot DAMN!), and I promise to look into that more ASAP. However, as I said, Lootas are honestly really good at Flyer-hunting, so any gun you buy specifically designed to do that is just icing on the cake. Remember, Deffguns are also S7 AP4, might as well have Optional Skyfire due to being naturally BS2, and can put a lot more (admittedly less accurate) shots into the air.
    Last edited by Hootman; 2012-07-09 at 05:30 PM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Okay, the part I'm not being clear about is my friend is asserting that he will be able to start the game with ZERO units in his deployment zone. Half his points will be the Deathwing Assault force, the rest will be packed into drop pods. I'm wanting to know if this is a legal thing to do, not having immediate access to the codex and rulebooks yet.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    Okay, the part I'm not being clear about is my friend is asserting that he will be able to start the game with ZERO units in his deployment zone. Half his points will be the Deathwing Assault force, the rest will be packed into drop pods. I'm wanting to know if this is a legal thing to do, not having immediate access to the codex and rulebooks yet.
    It used to be. I don't know about with the 6th edition rules, though. I don't have my rulebook yet, but I have been told by people who've seen it that you must start with at least half your army on the table, and if you end any turn with no units on the table you automatically lose, regardless of how much you have in reserve.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    Okay, the part I'm not being clear about is my friend is asserting that he will be able to start the game with ZERO units in his deployment zone. Half his points will be the Deathwing Assault force, the rest will be packed into drop pods. I'm wanting to know if this is a legal thing to do, not having immediate access to the codex and rulebooks yet.
    This is entirely legal - multiple armies can do it, including virtually all types of Space Marines, Tyranids and (as far as I know) Dark Eldar. It's also mandatory for Chaos Daemons!

    Having said that, if you're wanting to do this then you're usually better off in Drop Pods and Deep Striking than you are arriving through, say, outflanking as the the latter very famously has an unbeatable counter....

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    What you're looking at there is the Guy-In-White having an army that arrives on the table during his first turn, due to the Outflank rule, and the Guy-In-Black who has Infiltrated a couple of units along the Guy-In-White's table edge.
    According to the rulebook, which Guy-In-White and the tournament's Referee are desperately trying to verify, this leaves no way at all for the Guy-In-White's army to arrive on the table, and so Guy-In-Black wins a crushing victory without firing a shot.


    Bottom line is, it either works really well (everyone comes on exactly when they need to and land in a perfect spot - statistically possible, but unlikely) or it falls to pieces very quickly, especially against armies that can shoot at half your army and cripple it, and then spend the rest of the game mopping up the 1 or 2 units that arrive in subsequent turns.

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    It used to be. I don't know about with the 6th edition rules, though. I don't have my rulebook yet, but I have been told by people who've seen it that you must start with at least half your army on the table, and if you end any turn with no units on the table you automatically lose, regardless of how much you have in reserve.
    "If one player concedes the battle, or his entire army is wiped out, the game ends and a crushing victory goes to his opponent. Likewise, if at the end of any game turn, one player has no models on the battlefield, his opponent automatically wins." (Page 122, 'Victory Conditions').

    It still works, but only provided that you get the first turn and manage to deploy something before it ends. If your opponent gets the first turn, at the end of it you will automatically lose!
    Last edited by Wraith; 2012-07-09 at 06:52 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    You may start with up to half your army (counting "army" as number of units, with units that behave separately, (eg IG Infantry Platoons) separating before beeing counted) in reserve. This doesn't count units that MUST start in reserve.

    So if you have 4 squads and 2 flyers, you must deploy at least 2 squads, 2 squads may be deployed or in reserve, and the flyers must be in reserve.

    Where it gets uncertain is Drop Pods, and other transport vehicles that must start in reserve like the Night Scythe. As they must start in reserve, they don't count to the limit. But does the unit inside count?...
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    Okay, the part I'm not being clear about is my friend is asserting that he will be able to start the game with ZERO units in his deployment zone. Half his points will be the Deathwing Assault force, the rest will be packed into drop pods. I'm wanting to know if this is a legal thing to do, not having immediate access to the codex and rulebooks yet.
    RenegadePaladin is right; such a tactic WAS legal in 5th Edition. However, it is NOT legal in 6th Edition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Warhammer 40k, 6th Edition BBB, Page 124
    When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purpose of working out how many other units may do so. A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as one unit for these purposes. Independent Characters are also counted as a single unit regardless of whether they have joined a unit of not.
    Emphasis mine. So, any unit that is in a Drop Pod may be left in Reserves, and does not count for the 'Half Only' rule if you choose to do so. Deathwing units, however, do NOT have to start in Reserves. Only 50% of your friend's Non-Drop Pod units, including Deathwing Terminator units, may be held in Reserve.

    I do not see anything about "If you happen to have no models on the board but do have Reserves left, you lose anyways" anywhere in this section, but it's possible that the rule exists. Someone who knows the book better may be able to quote a page.

    EDIT: Well, THAT was quick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Warhammer 40k, 6th Edition BBB, Page 122
    If one player concedes the battle, or his entire army is wiped out, the game ends and a crushing victory goes to his opponent. Likewise, if at the end of any game turn, one player has no models on the battlefield, his opponent automatically wins.
    EDIT 2:
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    It still works, but only provided that you get the first turn and manage to deploy something before it ends. If your opponent gets the first turn, at the end of it you will automatically lose!
    Unfortunately, my first quote disputes your claim. Page 124 clearly states that, with the exception of fielding an army that MUST all start in Reserves (All-Pod lists and Chaos Daemons), only half of your regular units may begin the game there.
    Last edited by Hootman; 2012-07-09 at 07:03 PM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Remember, Game Turn and Player Turn are two distinct things. At least they used to be.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Okay, that's pretty loopy. So, basically, there's no way he can allocate a Deathwing Assault group without having the 'other half' of his DW terminators being non-reserve, if I'm interpreting this correctly. I'll check the rule once I've got the rulebook and can cross-compare it to the errata.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    Okay, that's pretty loopy. So, basically, there's no way he can allocate a Deathwing Assault group without having the 'other half' of his DW terminators being non-reserve, if I'm interpreting this correctly. I'll check the rule once I've got the rulebook and can cross-compare it to the errata.
    Well, the thing for him to do would be to take Ravenwing units and start them on the board, and keep all his Terminators in reserve (with the Ravenwing being the half that must be deployed). But yeah, all-Deathwing surprise attacks don't work anymore, which is too bad really, since it's what they're fluff-wise supposed to do.

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    It still works, but only provided that you get the first turn and manage to deploy something before it ends. If your opponent gets the first turn, at the end of it you will automatically lose!
    Wait. Does this mean that if Chaos Daemons don't go first, they automatically lose?
    Last edited by Renegade Paladin; 2012-07-09 at 09:35 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    Edit:
    Wait. Does this mean that if Chaos Daemons don't go first, they automatically lose?
    If you wanted to be a real jerk then yes, but don't expect any tournament organizer to agree with you on that call. Around the best I could expect it would be if you manager to kill off their initial deep strike forces before any more hit then you would win, but that's HARD to do if your opponent's list is built right.

    Got some more 6E watching in this weekend (not as much playing as I'd want) and I found a few things:

    1) Monstrous creatures are the new terminator killers.
    2) Flying creatures are hideously mobile.
    3) Eternal Warrior + FNP = RIDICULOUSLY broken.

    A newer chaos player managed to stomp one of our players who's deathwing/ravenwing list tabled my Tau in turn 4 in the Relic scenario we played (which, by-the-by, is a STUPIDLY hard scenario for Tau to win). The flying rules let the creatures get into assault range without dying to the shooting and higher initiative AP2 kept the thunder hammers and fists from getting their hits in as needed. It wasn't nearly as broken vs. a 10 man squad as his next game showed but the deathwing 5-man pods were taken down rather handily.

    As for the Eternal Warrior + FNP, as per my reading it allows Plague bearers a FNP vs. Tau Railgun shots as only Instant Death breaks FNP and eternal warrior prevents that. Add Epidemious and plague marines in a chaos marines list with demon allies and it turns stupid. 75% wound negation vs. anything with the plague bearers.
    Last edited by Ishikar; 2012-07-09 at 10:50 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Was he playing Chaos Space Marines? Because CSM Wings aren't actually flying. But yeah, I like new FNP in general. It's not an outright nerf with the change to 5+ but not really a buff either.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    No, the Demon player was playing a full demon's list. The FNP + epidemious part was somthing that I realized while helping a co-worker get started in the game. He was looking at a Nurgle themed list and wanted a few Chaos Demon Allies. I knew the HQ to take but didn't realize how nasty it could get with Plague Bearers on the table as well. I did recommend Nurgle Bikers to him as well (T6 but sadly no FNP on them) when he asked what would be a good Fast Attack slot to fill in that list with the Plague Marine/Nurgle Chaos troops.

    The writing on Epidemius makes him a VERY powerful HQ in the new edition, a +2 bonus to FNP after you get 15 kills? Situational at best but against a Nids player, kroot screens, or other sacrificial units, it gets nasty fast.

    Edit: Hmm... double checked the FAQ and I think it's really odd that they didn't make the Chaos Marines demon princes wings make him a flyer like the ones in the demon codex. I'd give it to him just because it's really the same unit across 2 books, just looks like another piece of sloppy errata/FAQ to me.

    I've found that it seems to be a pretty rampant issue with the new edition just like the magic question of "Who get's Flak?" and "Why do tau suits/space wolves all have a rule that helps outflank?" Hopefully they'll catch and fix those issues in the next go over.
    Last edited by Ishikar; 2012-07-09 at 11:23 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Winged One View Post
    Actually, Tarrasques are merely an extremely endangered species. They reproduce by spontaniously coming into existance when people piss off the DM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    It isn't odd at all that the Princes out of C:CSM don't count as fliers, seeing as how they clock in at 130 points, come with S6 and a 3+/5++, while the same thing would be a little under 200 (like, what, 190?) in the Daemons codex. Expect there to be flying options with a price jump next codex.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Okay, this isn't an exhaustive list. But, mostly this is the stuff that's good to take for Marines. Stuff in bold was also good last edition;

    Marneus Calgar, Sicarius, Cassius, Pedro, Lysander, Shrike, He'Stan, Kor'Sarro, Bike Captain, Librarian.
    Command Squads

    As you can see, Space Marines can use pretty much anything that they used to last edition. And even the actual Ultramarine characters are good now. Except Tigurius. He's way over-priced. Still. If you want his Reserves bonus, use Allies with Imperial Guard, Eldar or Grey Knights. Even if you have to put in an extra Troops, you're probably still going to come out cheaper than Tigurius.

    Tactical Squads in Rhinos.
    Rifle Scouts
    Bikes

    Razorbacks took a bit of a nerf. But, with the new way that Combat Squads works, Rhinos are fairly amazing. Shotgun Scouts are also not a good pick because of the nerf to Outflank-Charging, which means Land Speeder Storms aren't anywhere near as good anymore. The change from Razorbacks to Rhinos shouldn't be too difficult since it's recommended by practically everyone that you don't glue your Razor turrets down and keep the Rhino hatches, right? Right!?

    Note that Bikes are in Troops, not Fast Attack.

    Terminators, Assault Terminators, Sternguard, Dreadnoughts, Ironclad Dreadnoughts.

    Again, the old options we had are still good, and now we have a few more options. Hint; 2+ Armour and AV13. The only really big nerf to Terminators is no more Khan+Hammers+Land Raider = Outflank, you're dead. If you still want to do that, you might be better off with a real Land Raider (with the Lascannons...I know, right?), and regular Terminators with a Heavy Flamer.

    Vanguard Veterans (Shrike), Land Speeders, Stormtalons

    The most expensive unit in the Codex is actually useful now. Enjoy. Nobody's Land Speeders have gone anywhere and can fairly decently shoot down a Flyer if you've got double Multi-Meltas and He'Stan. Stormtalons are not good, the only reason you'd take them now is because they're better at shooting Flyers than a Land Speeder.

    Devastators, Thunderfire Cannon, Land Raiders, Predators, Vindicators.

    Again, our old choices are still good. But our new choices are also kind of amazing. Thunderfire Cannon behind an Aegis Defense Line to ravage my opponent's ADL? No? It's only me who does that? 'Kay.

    The only thing Space Marines 'lost' in regards to competitiveness was Razorbacks (which easily turn into Rhinos) and Land Speeder Storms filled with Scouts for Outflanking dual-Melta-ing Power Fisting doom which no-one except me apparently used anyway.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ishikar View Post
    Add Epidemious and plague marines in a chaos marines list with demon allies and it turns stupid. 75% wound negation vs. anything with the plague bearers.
    There's a very important part of Epidemius that most people miss:

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaos Daemon FAQ
    Q: When The Tally of Pestilence reaches 20+ casualties the rules say that 'All attacks from followers of Nurgle ignore armour saves'. Was this intended to affect both ranged and close combat attacks by the followers of Nurgle, as the text seems to indicate?

    A: Yes, that is indeed the case. Both ranged and close combat attacks.
    For Chaos Daemons, almost no Nurgle unit has ranged attacks (except for Aura of Decay). Chaos Space Marines, however...
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Quote Originally Posted by TooManySecrets View Post
    There's a very important part of Epidemius that most people miss
    Most people don't miss that at all. It's the sole reason that a total of five people in my immediate gaming circle are picking up Chaos Daemons. Not to mention that even without Epidemius, Plague Marines are one of the best Troops choices in the game.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Most people don't miss that at all. It's the sole reason that a total of five people in my immediate gaming circle are picking up Chaos Daemons. Not to mention that even without Epidemius, Plague Marines are one of the best Troops choices in the game.
    Cheesegear, do you think it's worth it to give anti-armor duty to your Plague Marines with 2 meltaguns, or do you think it would be better to give it to longer range options? I'm thinking of this in the context of a mostly Plague Marine list.
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