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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Neither can a lot of things. So you're not alone there. Did you use the 'Unit full of Characters' trick?
    I...didn't even think of that. Would that even work on "S10 Instant Death, deal with it"? I was under the impression that, to abuse Look Out Sir, you had to be able to survive the shots you were soaking.

    Did you bring any of the Ork Flyers? Those things can be brutal - especially against 'Nids.
    Unfortunately, I didn't end up having the inspiration to scratchbuild one of those this week. Maybe another time.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Hootman View Post
    I...didn't even think of that. Would that even work on "S10 Instant Death, deal with it"?
    It works on anything that isn't a Challenge. Are you, at any point allocating wounds to Characters? Savable or not? Then you can roll for Look Out. And then roll for cover saves because you're Bikers. You at least got that part, right? You always get your cover saves.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    It works on anything that isn't a Challenge. Are you, at any point allocating wounds to Characters? Savable or not? Then you can roll for Look Out. And then roll for cover saves because you're Bikers. You at least got that part, right? You always get your cover saves.
    question on that (finally got my rulebook: hooray!). my reading of the rules suggests that if you wanted to try that, you'd have to do it wound by wound. to make this easy to work with for both of us(in case i'm misunderstanding something), i'll put it into a gameplay example.

    the space wolves are fighting the chaos space marines. chaos uses lash to group up some wolf guards into a big ball, then drops a demolisher template on them and scores ten wounds. for the purposes of this example, none have cover saves or invulnerables because lash is great and this particular batch was bought a bit cheaply. in other words, no saves whatsoever.

    now, the rules say to allocate one wound to the closest model, taking his save(ie, none), and remove it if he dies. then you continue with the next closest, and so on.

    look out, sir triggers when the wound is allocated. the wound transfers, is resolved on the intervening model instead, and then the resolution continues. in other words, one wolf guard from the back died, but there are still 9 unsaveable wounds, and 9 wolf guard, so they're all gone, right?

    or am I misunderstanding the book and/or what you're saying?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Provengreil:

    By my reading of the rules, you're on the right track but not quite right. For units without mixed saving throws, you allocate wounds one-at-a-time after taking any Saves you might have. In effect, unlike in 5th edition, when you don't have mixed saves you allocate unsaved wounds rather than doing it before saves, but as you pointed out you do it one at a time. The Wolf Guard still all die, because you Look Out Sir, either pass or fail, then whoever takes the Wound dies and you move onto allocating the next wound. At least, that's how I read it. I think all this "Look Out Sir all the wounds onto one model" stuff is the result of getting the new Wound Allocation rules and the 5th edition ones we're all used to mixed together and assuming that all wounds are allocated at the same time, when that does not appear to be the case.
    Last edited by DaedalusMkV; 2012-07-15 at 07:02 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    My interpretation of Wound Allocation Shenanigans was that it was used with multi-wound models. The rules say that you must remove whole models where possible, but with Wound Allocation Shenanigans(TM) you can place 1 wound on each of your Nobz/Paladins/Unit of multi-wound models before having to remove anyone, allowing you to have taken 5 wounds but still fight at full effectiveness, while without them you would have lost 2 models and have 1 left on a third (assuming 2 wound models).
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Wait, you can allocate unsaved wounds?

    So if a warboss in a 2+ AS gets hit and fails his armor save, you can allocate that wound to one of the boyz in his unit on a 2+?

    EDIT: No, you can LOS unsaved wounds only if all members of a unit have the same save.
    Last edited by Tehnar; 2012-07-15 at 04:32 PM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Tehnar View Post
    Wait, you can allocate unsaved wounds?

    So if a warboss in a 2+ AS gets hit and fails his armor save, you can allocate that wound to one of the boyz in his unit on a 2+?

    EDIT: No, you can LOS unsaved wounds only if all members of a unit have the same save.
    Yeah, if you have a mixed group of saves, you roll Look Out, Sir! before the armor saves are resolved.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Which is made redundant since Meganobz and Warboss' can have the same armour save anyway. Now, if you LOS pm the warboss and fail, then allocate the wound onto a nob does the nob take a wound or can he make a save?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Tychris1 View Post
    Which is made redundant since Meganobz and Warboss' can have the same armour save anyway. Now, if you LOS pm the warboss and fail, then allocate the wound onto a nob does the nob take a wound or can he make a save?
    If there is any difference between saves, you allocate wounds one at a time and take saves after allocating. In this case, if the Warboss is the closest model to the enemy and you take Wounds, you roll LOS first, if you choose to, then the save of whoever is taking it. If that's the Warboss, you do not get to LOS again. You just take it. If it's the nob, again, save then take it. No more LOS.

    If they have the same Saves all around, then you roll all of your Saves at once, then allocate the unsaved wounds as usual. You can LOS these wounds, but you never get to try again.

    So to answer your question, no. If you're rolling your saves before allocation (and thus Look Out Sir), you do not roll any saves after allocation. Ever. If you're rolling after allocation, you do not get to Look Out Sir after saves. It's not a very complicated system, really. If you think you've found a 'trick' other than multiwound model single-wound-on-each shenanegans, you're either overthinking it or just plain doing it wrong.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Voidhawk View Post
    Good News Everyone!

    Another new flyer has been created, and it's an Imperial one no less!

    Just what the game needs...
    Not that this is in any way a surprise, since its name is clearly visible in the picture of the Imperial Armour Aeronautica table of contents on the Forge World site and has been since the book was announced.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Cheesegear's Quick Guide To 6th;

    Allies; Good. Except for Tyranids. They could at least be Desperate Allies for everyone...But, they're not.
    Fortifications; Bad (as in, breaks the game*)
    Double FO Charts at 2000+; Bad.

    Good Psychic Powers; Telepathy, Divination
    Situational; Biomancy, Telekinesis
    Bad; Pyromancy

    Snap Shots and Overwatch are the greatest things to have ever hit the game, ever. Twin-Link for maximum goodness.

    Full Assault army = Bad.
    Heavy Assault army = Good.
    Heavy Shooty army = Bad.
    Full Shooty army = Good.

    Power Mauls are for winners. The drop in AP is vastly outweighed by the increase in Strength. Doubly so for units who can't also take Melta Bombs.
    Artificer Armour is amazing again.

    Watch for units and Characters in your Codex that can replace both their weapons. Either bring a Power Maul and Power Axe, or double Plasma Pistols (bring Artificer Armour). Gunslinger is amazing.

    Force Staves are best. You only need to wound once which means dealing more wounds, means more 2+ saves, which means more fails.

    Flyers are good.
    Flying Transports are bad.

    ...I think that's everything.

    *If you can't think of at least one way to abuse an Aegis Defense Line, you either have a bad Codex or you're not thinking hard enough.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    I think I've just decided to start a Black Templar army.
    They always have had cool fluff and for that reason would always have been my first marine army. Add to this the fact that they seem to have weathered the 6e changes better then most I think I'll go for them.

    so on the to buy list are now:
    a command squad.
    Marines with neophytes in front of them.
    Terminators in all shapes and sizes
    the BT upgrade kit.

    any more reccomendations? I'd like to include dreadnoughts because dreads are cool but am not really sure what to buy more.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Borgh View Post
    any more reccomendations? I'd like to include dreadnoughts because dreads are cool but am not really sure what to buy more.
    You need an Emperor's Champion, and he can not be the Warlord. So you will also need a Captain model. If you want to run large squads in Land Raiders, you can get a Chaplain instead.

    Terminators with dual Cyclones.
    Since you have no Flyers of your own, you are actually going to need some Dreads; Twin-Linked Lascannon, Missile Launcher and Tank Hunters. Venerable Dreads cost the same currency-wise so make them Venerable, because it is cheap.
    You also wouldn't go far wrong getting an Aegis Defense Line either.

    Crusaders in Land Raiders. Otherwise Rhinos. Black Templars can take minimum 5-man squads with Meltagun and Multi-Melta, you can stick them in Rhinos if you want to - you should.

    Land Speeder Tyhpoons are still the only decent Fast Attack choice.

    Due to complete lack of Devastators and your Dreadnoughts and Terminators being on Anti-Flyer duty so grab a Predator or two. And, of course, Vindicators are fairly good so it's worth getting one if you're facing a lot of FNP.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Voidhawk View Post
    Okay, I'm at the end of my tether. I've been reading the Big Black Book back and forth for 2 weeks now, scanning chat on websites, and watching the GW site like a hawk for an FAQ. So I'm just going to come out and ask:

    HOW THE HELL DO CHARIOTS WORK?!

    It's been driving me completely nuts. I'd really like to use my Command Barge in games soon, but I would rather not have to pause the first time it assaults to discuss what it can and can't do. My main issues are:

    1) Can models attacked by the command barge attack the barge itself, or only the rider?
    2) If they can, do they strike Front Armour like a walker, or Rear Armour like normal vehicles?
    3) Can it be locked in combat like a walker, or can it simply drive away like any other vehicle?

    My current "working" opinion is 1) the barge can be attacked, 2) it's attacked at front armour, 3) it can be locked, but only if it's not a skimmer and the enemy can't fly. But then again I own one, so my opinion is liable to bias.

    So, what do you guys think?
    Just in case this wasn't sufficiently answered, here's my thoughts on it while looking at the rulebook:

    1) Shooting attacks normal; the Assaulting rules say the rider is treated as being in base contact with all enemy models that are themselves in contact with the chariot. So they can attack the rider or the chariot. Any other crew cannot be targeted separately.
    2) The chariot provides no additional rules for assault. In the case of the command barge, this means Rear Armor as normal for vehicles.
    3) From the rules; as a vehicle, the Chariot (and its rider, whilst embarked) cannot be locked in combat.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Reading the Wolves errata, it seems kind of ambiguous with regards to Psychic Powers. Do I either:
    a) pick two SW powers, then choose to swap to rolling at deployment
    or
    b) pick two SW powers OR say 'I'm using the BBB, so I won't use any powers' then roll my two new ones at deployment

    The book doesn't really clarify that very well.
    Edit: Also, how does Njal's choice work? Do I do it at list selection or at deployment?
    Last edited by Gauntlet; 2012-07-16 at 09:15 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Gauntlet View Post
    Reading the Wolves errata, it seems kind of ambiguous with regards to Psychic Powers. Do I either:
    a) pick two SW powers, then choose to swap to rolling at deployment
    or
    b) pick two SW powers OR say 'I'm using the BBB, so I won't use any powers' then roll my two new ones at deployment

    The book doesn't really clarify that very well.
    Edit: Also, how does Njal's choice work? Do I do it at list selection or at deployment?
    THat's a good question. The latter seems less likely to involve tailoring, but it's hard to judge GW's intent. I know Njal would make the deciscion to take either the codex powers or 2 new ones at the same time everyone else does, though.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Gauntlet View Post
    b) pick two SW powers OR say 'I'm using the BBB, so I won't use any powers' then roll my two new ones at deployment
    This one. Powers are still chosen as part of the army list.

    Also, how does Njal's choice work? Do I do it at list selection or at deployment?
    List creation. In most cases, the special character psykers should never choose the ones from the BRB.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Hmm.. In that case I'm not sure which choice I want to take on my rune priest. Divination is awesome, but I can't use any of it the turn I drop pod in whereas Jaws or Living Lightning would make me more.useful that turn. Also since blessings and maledictions are all at start of movement, I can't even put him on a bike and sprint him up the board to buff the unit that way either.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Sorry, this is from a few days ago, but I've been on vacation and wanted to comment on it still.
    Quote Originally Posted by bluntpencil View Post
    That's a good point, but 150% of 'next to nothing' is still 'next to nothing'.

    If you compare that to the 2.78% vs Termies and 5.6% vs Termies, that's 100% difference. Mauls kill double the Terminators. That's a big difference too.
    You need to look at context though, yes its a 50% loss going from swords to mauls against MEQ and a 100% gain against Terminators, but you still have to look at the numbers.
    If you've got 30 attacks (normal unit of banshees on the charge) you are killing 5 MEQ versus 3 MEQ, or half the unit compared to 1/3 the unit, and against some things that 2 wounds could make a big difference.
    Against Terminators though, you are looking at 0.8 wounds compared to 1.6 wounds, so you have a good chance of getting 1 with swords and only a 60% better chance of getting 2 wounds instead of 1. So while it is a 100% increase mathematically, since you have a small sample and have to round to whole numbers a lot of that increase is masked/hidden/lost.
    And of course you have to look at what Doom could do to things, because I never run my banshees without doom support from a farseer because, as these numbers show, they don't do enough wounds without them, and against everything not T5 the doom is going to help the swords more then the mauls. Doom is a 66% increase in wounds on S3vsT4 compared to a 16% increase in S5vsT4... again you have to take sample size into account. Maybe it means you can run Banshees without a farseer though. But either way, they have to avoid terminators now, where as before they were the single best way of dealing with terminators for Eldar.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Someone pointed out on another forum that not many armies have a lot of Terminator style units. Yes GK, I think some Necros, and maybe 'Nids have it but for the most part TEQ is not all over the place.

    As a side note I watched part of a 6th edition game yesterday. GK are very very good. It was a three way dance using annilation set up. 'Nids on one table, regular Marines on another and GK with Tau allies on the other. GK was rolling hot and leveling a mess of 'Nids. I would venture he would have won if he didn't have to leave early. I didn't see who won after sadly.

    That being said there are still ways to nail down Terminators. Just have to use heads more. Quick question but the shop owner was praising 'Nids and Necrons as some of the best armies. How true is this. Thanks.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Quote Originally Posted by SynissterSyster View Post
    but for the most part TEQ is not all over the place.
    While it may be true that relatively few armies fielded mass-terminators in 5th Edition, with the obvious power of 2+ Armor in 6th, I thought I should probably pull together a list of everyone who can do it well enough.

    Vanilla Marines (Vulkan, Shrike.)
    Blood Angels (FNP Priests, Dante.)
    Black Templars (Command Squads, Cheap Double-Cyclones.)
    Dark Angels (Hello, I am THE Deathwing. TROOPS.)
    Grey Knights (Lol, but I do it better. TROOPS.)
    Space Wolves (I am the cheapest Thing-Wing. TROOPS.)
    Chaos Marines (Combi-meltas everywhere.)
    Orks (Megabosses and Meganobz. TROOPS.)


    So that would be....every flavor of Space Marines (I didn't miss one, did I?), and Orks. The ones that can't are Eldar, Deldar, Guard, Sisters, Necrons, Tau, Daemons, and Nids--and I'm honestly not sure about a few of those. For those keeping count, that would be fully half of all available armies (though obviously some do it much better than others). Depending on your local meta (mine is almost entirely Marine-free, which is wacky), it could be a big problem in the coming months.

    As for your other question, I suspect that Nids are only maginally better than they used to be, despite having a number of FMC's. Necrons, on the other hand, are pretty amazing--Gauss-Spam is now guaranteed to bring down your enemy's vehicles, rather than it being just a blind hope.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Quote Originally Posted by SynissterSyster View Post
    Someone pointed out on another forum that not many armies have a lot of Terminator style units. Yes GK, I think some Necros, and maybe 'Nids have it but for the most part TEQ is not all over the place.

    As a side note I watched part of a 6th edition game yesterday. GK are very very good. It was a three way dance using annilation set up. 'Nids on one table, regular Marines on another and GK with Tau allies on the other. GK was rolling hot and leveling a mess of 'Nids. I would venture he would have won if he didn't have to leave early. I didn't see who won after sadly.

    That being said there are still ways to nail down Terminators. Just have to use heads more. Quick question but the shop owner was praising 'Nids and Necrons as some of the best armies. How true is this. Thanks.

    "Only space marines have Terminators"sounds a bit like "only fish have gills*", sure thats true but at the same time there are lots of fish.
    I'm reasonably sure the main counter to terminators will turn out to be More Terminators or Lots of Dakka instead of some magical anti-terminator unit. Except Lychguard, those will nom termies for breakfast.

    As for good armies, IDK, I'm fairly sure Necrons are very powerfull right now but am not so sure about Tyrannids. Can't really see why they should be so much better now.

    *not counting all the other creatures with gills

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Hmmmm so this may be a problem as I am going to run DEldar. I know I can use Dark Lance to pick off the AP 2 units and even have a melta type weapon if need be. So far the meta at the store I hang out at is the owner runs vanilla marines, one runs orks, one 'nid player and maybe a necron. The GK/Tau player may or may not be a regular so I dunno.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Quote Originally Posted by SynissterSyster View Post
    Hmmmm so this may be a problem as I am going to run DEldar. I know I can use Dark Lance to pick off the AP 2 units and even have a melta type weapon if need be. So far the meta at the store I hang out at is the owner runs vanilla marines, one runs orks, one 'nid player and maybe a necron. The GK/Tau player may or may not be a regular so I dunno.
    The problem is, your dark lances are already on vehicle duty, being one of the few things with enough oomph to maul vehicles.

    For DE the thing on terminator duty will either be wyches or clouds of splinter fire. basically avoid the termies, have them make saves untill they roll 1's for their armour and then make your hopefully superior numbers and manoeuvrability count. termies are expensive in points so every death counts.

    And if anyone ever brings a 10 man termination blob to the table, and I predict those will get more common, feel free to use all the darklight weaponry you can scrounge together.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    I play Tau and GKs, and my anti-TEQ tactics haven't changed in the slightest.

    Mostly because 'shoot them to death' is still perfectly viable.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Thankfully only the owner really plays marines the most. The GK/Tau kid will be a problem if he shows up but all in all I am not too worried. Necros will be fun to play against so I can learn how strong they are. Thanks all for the advice!
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Hootman View Post
    Space Wolves (I am the cheapest Thing-Wing. TROOPS.)
    Uh... Unless you're talking currency wise (And I'm not sure about them being cheeper than vanilla terminators, either), Space Wolf Terminators are only cheap on paper. Yes, it's 200 points for 5 space Wolf terminators with a Cyclone Missile Launcher, BUT;

    a) You have power weapons and storm bolters instead of power fists and storm bolters. So, S4 AP 3 or S5 AP 2 Cumbersome vs. S8 AP 2 Cumbersome. Admittadly, you've got the Cyclone missile launcher and they don't but that's not going to do a whole lot for killing other terminators.
    b) You have to pay for every upgrade: C:SM Assault terminators come to 40 points apiece for a hammernator loadout, as does Deathwing, if memory serves. Wolf guard? 63 points. And dual wolf claws? 48 points. Anything but the absolute cheepest and skimpiest configurations are going to be more expensive for Space Wolves than it will be for other armies.
    c) Logan Grimnar: Sure, he's better than Belial. But he's also a whole lot pricier. And you're already paying more than other people were for their terminators.
    d) Drop pods: You know how other people get to deep strike their terminators in via teleportation? Space Wolves don't. If they want to avoid footslogging, they have to purchase a drop pod. And while other army's drop pods can put an independant character and 5 terminators in a drop pod, the lower transport capacity of a space wolves drop pod means you have to choose between sticking the independant character in there, or getting access to a terminator special weapon.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Drop pods > no drop pods anyway. Nothing's worse than losing your Terminator Death Star to a deep strike mishap.

    And unless by "all other Marine armies" you mean "Only Ultramarines," you're wrong; the Marine Codex is the only one with capacity 12 pods.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    Drop pods > no drop pods anyway. Nothing's worse than losing your Terminator Death Star to a deep strike mishap.

    And unless by "all other Marine armies" you mean "Only Ultramarines," you're wrong; the Marine Codex is the only one with capacity 12 pods.
    also, drop pod assault gets your deep strikers in on turn 1, let's not forget.

    that said, mishaps HAVE been reduced a bit in severity. do the wolves use teleport homers or anything? perhaps some sort of strategy could be made?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Provengreil View Post
    also, drop pod assault gets your deep strikers in on turn 1, let's not forget.

    that said, mishaps HAVE been reduced a bit in severity. do the wolves use teleport homers or anything? perhaps some sort of strategy could be made?
    Wolves don't teleport, period.
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