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  1. - Top - End - #301
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc

    Ok I just reread it and it's really kind of confusing. I think I might got it wrong. So I agree now in that it is bad written, but maybe not bad enough to vote for top ten, idk.

  2. - Top - End - #302
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    Default Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc

    At least bad enough for a mention in the Dysfunctional Rules Compendium…
    Proud owner of: 0.36 0.43 0.99 2.00 Internet(s), 2 Win(s), and 3000 Brownie Point(s)

    Quote Originally Posted by Welknair View Post
    *Proceeds to google "Bride of the Portable Hole", jokingly wondering if it might exist*

    *It does.*

    What.

  3. - Top - End - #303
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    Default Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Ksheep View Post
    At least bad enough for a mention in the Dysfunctional Rules Compendium…
    There is a such thing?

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    Default Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc

    Statistics, we has 'em:
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    More than two fifths of the suggestions (53) have only one vote. There are 18 negative votes so far out of 455 total; 35 voters have used all their votes, 25 have only used one, and 23 of the remaining 28 have used between 2 and 5 votes each.


    We also has some random underappreciated entries:{table=head]Name | Type
    Exemplar | Prestige Class
    Choker extra standard action | Ability
    Tracking | Rule
    Haunt Shift | Spell
    Dvati | Race
    Incantatrix | Prestige Class
    Reincarnate | Spell
    Clever Wrestling | Feat
    Antagonize | Feat
    White Raven Tactics on initiator | Maneuver[/table]

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
    Dead is a little stupid, in that it doesn't actually have any status attached to it. While you could probably "RAW" that you can actually do everything you did while alive after you've bitten the dust and gone to -10 HP, and that until you heal to -9 HP or more, you effectively have infinite health with no penalties, I'd love to meet a DM who will do that. Others are terribly written, others have glaring errors and usage prerequisites that can never be met, as well as the Feat that outright penalises you with no benefit, that can be DM fudged, or having an argument swung either way, dead, however, is dead. While it's stupid that something so rules heavy should miss out the effects of being dead, it's certainly not among worst-written.
    Technically, dead actually correctly specifies that you can't take physical actions, but fails to block off purely mental actions like manifesting a power or casting a still silent spell.

    1 Vote goes for Exemplar's ability to use any skill for Diplomacy. We get Arseplomancer, Jumplomancer, etc, those actually involve taking an action, whether it's crawling inside your own bum, breaking the laws of physics by jumping 300metres and taking longer to do it than running it (actually 1 vote goes to jumping here as well), you actually do something. Even Speaking Languages can make sense, by impressing them with your talent in teaching languages. Autohypnosis, Control Shape (admittedly, removed in 3.5), Concentration, Listen, Lucid Dreaming, Iaijutsu Focus, Spot and Search can all be used to generate a Fanatical Response, simply by standing there. Hide can be used to actively impress people by simply becoming invisible. While Sleight of Hand can be used for Card Tricks, it also includes Pick Pocket - so you can impress people by stealing from them. Swim allows you to make people love you. Even if there's no water near by, you're on the elemental plane of earth, or fire or something.
    Lucid Dreaming is probably the best (worst) one, because you're actually asleep.

    Other poorly written ones, I'd also put about 4 votes in for CW Samurai. It's a Maneuvreable Tough Front Line Fighter built to deal damage using their Intelligence and Wisdom to power their skills and abilities while also being extremely intimidating but capable of cultivating a true rapport with everyone they meet. It's completely MAD but with no Synergy whatsoever.
    Sadly, three is the limit for any given item. You have 3 votes left total.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salbazier View Post
    Support vote for alignment and epic spellcasting.

    Also Paladin's code and similiar stuff, like Knight's code.
    OK, that's 3 votes total?

    So, the subject can see in the dark. But what does the second clause means?
    Ah, not really sure. Maybe it means you don't gain low-light vision...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tr011 View Post
    Ok I just reread it and it's really kind of confusing. I think I might got it wrong. So I agree now in that it is bad written, but maybe not bad enough to vote for top ten, idk.
    There's an awful lot of ferocious competition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salbazier View Post
    There is a such thing?
    Yes. Somewhat similar to this thread, but a lot less formal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
    That's RAW for you; 100% Rules-Legal, 110% silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    "Common sense" and "RAW" are not exactly on speaking terms
    Projects: Homebrew, Gentlemen's Agreement, DMPCs, Forbidden Knowledge safety, and Top Ten Worst. Also, Quotes and RACSD are good.

    Anyone knows blue is for sarcas'ing in · "Take 10 SAN damage from Dark Orchid" · Use of gray may indicate nitpicking · Green is sincerity

  5. - Top - End - #305
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    Default Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc

    Quote Originally Posted by tuggyne View Post
    OK, that's 3 votes total?
    Yup.
    Ah, not really sure. Maybe it means you don't gain low-light vision...?

    There's an awful lot of ferocious competition.
    Yeah, its just made it an unusable spell. Pretty tame.

    Yes. Somewhat similar to this thread, but a lot less formal.[/QUOTE]

    The ranking here are fun, but that thread looks more hilarious (and WTF inducing). Probably because there are many obscure stuffs brought up there. Things that mentioned here are mostly the more infamous stuffs that already well known.

  6. - Top - End - #306
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    Default Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Salbazier View Post
    The ranking here are fun, but that thread looks more hilarious (and WTF inducing). Probably because there are many obscure stuffs brought up there. Things that mentioned here are mostly the more infamous stuffs that already well known.
    Well, yes. That was the point of this thread, to gather what's already known (at least to some of us) and figure out what's really the worst.

    Also, that's probably why the other thread has started its second 50-page installment while this one has only 11 pages total. I... regret... nothing!
    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
    That's RAW for you; 100% Rules-Legal, 110% silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    "Common sense" and "RAW" are not exactly on speaking terms
    Projects: Homebrew, Gentlemen's Agreement, DMPCs, Forbidden Knowledge safety, and Top Ten Worst. Also, Quotes and RACSD are good.

    Anyone knows blue is for sarcas'ing in · "Take 10 SAN damage from Dark Orchid" · Use of gray may indicate nitpicking · Green is sincerity

  7. - Top - End - #307
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    Default Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc

    I'm giving a negative vote (7 votes left for me) to White Raven Tactics. You cannot use it on yourself by RAW, and here's why:

    Quote Originally Posted by White Raven Tactics
    When you use this maneuver, select an ally within range. Her initiative count immediately equals your initiative count –1. She then acts on her new initiative count as normal. If she has already acted in the current round, she can act again. If this maneuver would not change your ally’s initiative count, it has no effect.
    Emphasis on bolded. Now let's see what happens when you target yourself with the maneuver:

    Example Initiative Order:
    A, B, You, C, X, Y, Z.

    Above Initiative Order As Modified by WRT'ing Yourself:
    A, B, You, C, X, Y, Z.

    Your initiative count has not changed. Therefore, no extra turn for you.

    ----------

    White Raven Tactics explains perfectly well what it does. A lot of people just seem to ignore or not notice the part that explicitly rules out the unintended use.
    Last edited by Sith_Happens; 2013-01-23 at 12:11 AM.
    Revan avatar by kaptainkrutch.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cirrylius View Post
    That's how wizards beta test their new animals. If it survives Australia, it's a go. Which in hindsight explains a LOT about Australia.

  8. - Top - End - #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sith_Happens View Post
    I'm giving a negative vote (7 votes left for me) to White Raven Tactics. You cannot use it on yourself by RAW, and here's why:



    Emphasis on bolded. Now let's see what happens when you target yourself with the maneuver:

    Example Initiative Order:
    A, B, You, C, X, Y, Z.

    Above Initiative Order As Modified by WRT'ing Yourself:
    A, B, You, C, X, Y, Z.

    Your initiative count has not changed. Therefore, no extra turn for you.
    How does initiativeCount-- fit the description of "your initiative count doesn't change"? It doesn't say "initiative order", does it?

    Honestly, it seems to me more certain than before that the trick does work, however stupid it may be. (Assuming you can consider yourself an ally, anyway.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
    That's RAW for you; 100% Rules-Legal, 110% silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    "Common sense" and "RAW" are not exactly on speaking terms
    Projects: Homebrew, Gentlemen's Agreement, DMPCs, Forbidden Knowledge safety, and Top Ten Worst. Also, Quotes and RACSD are good.

    Anyone knows blue is for sarcas'ing in · "Take 10 SAN damage from Dark Orchid" · Use of gray may indicate nitpicking · Green is sincerity

  9. - Top - End - #309
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    Default Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc

    Quote Originally Posted by tuggyne View Post
    How does initiativeCount-- fit the description of "your initiative count doesn't change"? It doesn't say "initiative order", does it?

    Honestly, it seems to me more certain than before that the trick does work, however stupid it may be. (Assuming you can consider yourself an ally, anyway.)
    Well, the problem is that "initiative count" is never explicitly defined anywhere in the rules. However, in every place I think of where the phrase is used, it's used more or less synonymously with "initiative order."
    Revan avatar by kaptainkrutch.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cirrylius View Post
    That's how wizards beta test their new animals. If it survives Australia, it's a go. Which in hindsight explains a LOT about Australia.

  10. - Top - End - #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sith_Happens View Post
    Well, the problem is that "initiative count" is never explicitly defined anywhere in the rules. However, in every place I think of where the phrase is used, it's used more or less synonymously with "initiative order."
    Actually, it is. I would have assumed it meant "the original initiative roll or modifications thereto", with initiative order being merely the arrangement of initiative counts sequentially, and while initiative order isn't listed, that's approximately what initiative count does mean.

    Setting your own initiative count to (I - 1) very clearly does change it; it must.
    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
    That's RAW for you; 100% Rules-Legal, 110% silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    "Common sense" and "RAW" are not exactly on speaking terms
    Projects: Homebrew, Gentlemen's Agreement, DMPCs, Forbidden Knowledge safety, and Top Ten Worst. Also, Quotes and RACSD are good.

    Anyone knows blue is for sarcas'ing in · "Take 10 SAN damage from Dark Orchid" · Use of gray may indicate nitpicking · Green is sincerity

  11. - Top - End - #311
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    Default Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc

    Quote Originally Posted by tuggyne View Post
    Actually, it is.



    ...Stupid glossary ruins everything.
    Revan avatar by kaptainkrutch.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cirrylius View Post
    That's how wizards beta test their new animals. If it survives Australia, it's a go. Which in hindsight explains a LOT about Australia.

  12. - Top - End - #312
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    Default Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc

    Quote Originally Posted by tuggyne View Post
    Honestly, it seems to me more certain than before that the trick does work, however stupid it may be. (Assuming you can consider yourself an ally, anyway.)
    I believe that while you're included among your allies, you're not your own ally. Thus, all abilities that affect "allies" affect yourself, but an ability that works on "an ally" doesn't.

    So, that there is why it won't work.

    JaronK

  13. - Top - End - #313
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    Default Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc

    Quote Originally Posted by JaronK View Post
    I believe that while you're included among your allies, you're not your own ally. Thus, all abilities that affect "allies" affect yourself, but an ability that works on "an ally" doesn't.

    So, that there is why it won't work.
    Yeah that's not confusing at all. That's almost enough right there to put either WRT or "ally" definition on the list, because it's such lousy writing.

    Anyway, Sith, I (obviously) haven't put in your negative vote yet, but if you still want to I'll include it with the next batch.
    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
    That's RAW for you; 100% Rules-Legal, 110% silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    "Common sense" and "RAW" are not exactly on speaking terms
    Projects: Homebrew, Gentlemen's Agreement, DMPCs, Forbidden Knowledge safety, and Top Ten Worst. Also, Quotes and RACSD are good.

    Anyone knows blue is for sarcas'ing in · "Take 10 SAN damage from Dark Orchid" · Use of gray may indicate nitpicking · Green is sincerity

  14. - Top - End - #314
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    Default Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc

    Quote Originally Posted by tuggyne View Post
    Yeah that's not confusing at all. That's almost enough right there to put either WRT or "ally" definition on the list, because it's such lousy writing.

    Anyway, Sith, I (obviously) haven't put in your negative vote yet, but if you still want to I'll include it with the next batch.
    No, I'll withdraw it. (8 votes remaining)

    EDIT: New nomination: the Arcane Mastery feat. It allows you to take 10 on caster level checks "as if the caster level check was a skill check." Which means not in combat, which is when 95+% of caster level checks happen.
    Last edited by Sith_Happens; 2013-01-23 at 04:48 AM.
    Revan avatar by kaptainkrutch.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cirrylius View Post
    That's how wizards beta test their new animals. If it survives Australia, it's a go. Which in hindsight explains a LOT about Australia.

  15. - Top - End - #315
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    Default Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc

    (Arseplomancer? Do I want to know?)

    I don't want to change any of my votes, but can I make like a suggestion or an honorable mention or something? I recently discovered something uniquely hilarious....

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    Default Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc

    3 votes for Diplomacy. Nothing wrong with talking your way out of trouble, but to do so with a binding dice roll which ignores the politics and ideology of the NPC, not so good.

    1 Vote for each of these too

    Truenamer
    PaO duration/Alter Self/Polymorph/Shapechange
    Epic spellcasting
    Paladin code
    Challenge Rating
    LA/RHD
    Traps

    That's my 10 votes

    I'm ignoring things like Sarrukh's and Pazuzu because they are trivial to fix — they simply don't exist
    π = 4
    Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' — Actually it's worse than that.


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  17. - Top - End - #317
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    Default Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc

    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
    (Arseplomancer? Do I want to know?)
    Cliff Notes version: Use Exemplar and various stack-able bonuses to achieve an Escape Artist check somewhere over 80. Become the answer to the question "what bug's crawled up your butt?" This counts as a Diplomacy check. Diplomacy rules (which are pretty badly written) indicate witnesses to your Arseplomancy are automatically fanatical followers.

    And, now I think I'll go scrub that image from my head AGAIN.
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  18. - Top - End - #318
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    Default Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc

    You can eventually use your Escape Artist skill to pass through a gap that's smaller than your own head.

    Imagine Levistus hosting a house party and going "hai you guys, whacth dis!", struggling to peer upside his insides for a minute, and then after a moment of stunned silence, the crown bursting into applause, with Asmodeus becoming his best friend, promptly before exploding in a halo of devilish faeces.

    Other daft ones include pranking your mates by throwing a sheet over them and making everyone who sees a sheet standing next you applaud.

    As funny as that image is, I still think standing there making constipated faces while you concentrate/autohypnotise yourself to make the crowd love you is hilarious.
    Last edited by Vaz; 2013-01-23 at 08:04 AM.

  19. - Top - End - #319
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    Default Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc

    Okay, it's been so long, can I have 10 more votes rather than trying to remember my previous ones and figure out which ones to undo? Because clearly Diplomacy and the Exemplar thing deserve some of my disapproving glare (which is kind of a big deal what with me being a minmaxed psion and all). I always figured the tales of diplomancer progress were either exagerration or relied on a doormat DM, but if the rules are actually that simplistic, then...well, something must be done, surely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tr011 View Post
    played a truenamer with a bit of thinking about it's mechanic? I mean I played one at level 11 without Item Familiar or other cheese I got +57 to truenaming
    Er...how? Getting that much of a skill plus without Item Familiar or similar cheese can't be easy. And just think where you'd be if you devoted the same effort to optimizing, say, Hide or Bluff, and played a Rogue (or a Rogue/Sorcerer, or a Fighter/Rogue/Sorcerer who specializes in enchantments).

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
    Other poorly written ones, I'd also put about 4 votes in for CW Samurai. It's a Maneuvreable Tough Front Line Fighter built to deal damage using their Intelligence and Wisdom to power their skills and abilities while also being extremely intimidating but capable of cultivating a true rapport with everyone they meet. It's completely MAD but with no Synergy whatsoever.
    See, to me this makes it sound awesome, apart from that last line. I'm gonna have to look hard at the class and try to figure out how to make it any of these things, let alone all of them. All I saw before tuning out was that you have to use the same exact pair of weapons on every single member of the class you'll ever make until the end of time.
    Last edited by willpell; 2013-01-23 at 10:01 AM.

  20. - Top - End - #320
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    Default Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc

    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
    Er...how? Getting that much of a skill plus without Item Familiar or similar cheese can't be easy. And just think where you'd be if you devoted the same effort to optimizing, say, Hide or Bluff, and played a Rogue (or a Rogue/Sorcerer, or a Fighter/Rogue/Sorcerer who specializes in enchantments).
    Since you are not playing another class... I mean the skill check makes everything for the truenamer, any +1 on this, no matter how far you've gotten, is still important. So you should really spend an hour thinking about how you get the check high enough.

    My way was (human, truenamer 11 with Knowledge Devotion, Extend/Empower/Quicken Utterance and Skill Focus, also standard WBL):

    int was 18+2 (levels) +2 (enhancement)
    14 (ranks) + 6 (int) + 2 (circumstance from mw tool) + 10 (enhancement from that truespeak item from ToM) + 15 (competence from item) + 2 (moral from item that kinda works like heroism) + 3 (skill focus) + 5 (paragnostic apostle guild) = +57

    If you improve your enhancement to int later to +6, gain a higher rank in your guild and improve the competence bonus to +20 you get another +12 total.

  21. - Top - End - #321
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    Default Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Tr011 View Post
    + 15 (competence from item)
    I thought competence items were only allowed to go up to +5....

  22. - Top - End - #322
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    Default Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc

    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
    I thought competence items were only allowed to go up to +5....
    Up to +20. It's in the DMG.

  23. - Top - End - #323
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    Default Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc

    I'm submitting Spellstrike, from pathfinder's Magus:

    Quote Originally Posted by Spellstrike
    Spellstrike (Su): At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell. If the magus makes this attack in concert with spell combat, this melee attack takes all the penalties accrued by spell combat melee attacks. This attack uses the weapon's critical range (20, 19–20, or 18–20 and modified by the keen weapon property or similar effects), but the spell effect only deals ×2 damage on a successful critical hit, while the weapon damage uses its own critical modifier.
    How many times do you need to read that block of text to realize that it's actually granting additional attacks, as opposed to modifying your attacks already? (The answer is "too many")
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