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    Default Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc

    Alignments have been knocked back down a peg or two, but otherwise the Top Ten are unchanged.

    Anyone have suggestions on chopping the monolithic Rules category down?

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    Nearly half the suggestions (48) have only one vote (not including two that were downvoted to 1). There are 14 negative votes so far; 31 voters have used all their votes, 22 have only used one, and 18 of the remaining 21 have used between 2 and 5 votes each.


    Quote Originally Posted by Antonok View Post
    I'm going to have to suggest the Feinting rules for this. Opponents getting to add their base attack in addition to their sense motive is a poor design and makes this a less then optimal route for combat.
    On the other hand, a well-trained combatant will recognize feints in many cases, even if their ability to sense social trends is underdeveloped. BAB is the most straightforward way to represent that. (Perhaps it should be added to both sides?)

    Of course, in my opinion, feinting shouldn't be so horribly inefficient, either; move action base and swift with Improved would seem more sensible.

    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
    EDIT - One very long "minute" later, let's drop my duplicate vote on Bloodlines; they are fairly horrible for play purposes, but the writing isn't especially awkward by the standards we're setting here, and upon re-reading them I do vaguely like the general concept (just not the execution), so one vote against them should be sufficient So that becomes my negvote against alignment. I'm beginning to think we (or at least I) should sequence votes in priority order or something....
    Yeah, the standards here are actually pretty high (low?). Also, while you can certainly organize by priority for your own use, please don't expect me to run through that to figure out what to drop.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Well, I would expect people to read the top of the list and base their votes on that; so it should be no surprise that anything near the top gets cumulatively more votes.

    I think the best way to get a meaningful statistic out of this is to let people cast one vote on each entry in the list, and let them vote "broken", "not broken" or "never heard of this / don't care". $.02
    That may be so; however, it's quite a bit too late to rearrange the voting schema at this point. (That probably also applies to my abortive idea of increasing the vote maximum.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
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    Default Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc

    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
    I've often thought that alignment should perhaps work by a points-based system - every act has a morality value, adjusted based on circumstances, and a certain number of evil acts eventually make you Evil if not balanced by good acts, with perhaps automatic accumulation of points of whichever side is dominant, so that the slope grows slipperier once you pass a tipping point and start to find the once-taboo idea growing more seductive. It'd be very difficult to adjudicate well, and very easy to do so poorly, and double that on the L/C axis. But for a video game or something it'd be perfect, and for a game where the DM doesn't mind being a little OCD, it might work.
    I have a 3rd party book (GASP!!HORROR!!) by RPGObjects about using D&D to play in Arthurian England; it's called Legends of Excalibur. Instead of alignment, LoE has a mechanic called Nobility- it's rated on a scale of 0-100, with 0 basically meaning you're Adolf Hitler and 100 meaning you're Galahad-pure-and-good. Acts that protect the innocent and helpless or defend society and its mores increase Nobility, while acts against the powers that be or of despicable barbarism decrease your Nobility.

    Your nobility has additional in game effects, such as a weapon property that gives bonus damage against those whose Nobility is less than yours. It may also affect how NPCs interact with you; wanna hobnob with and make contacts among the nobility? Better get yours up to be commensurate with theirs, as a "robber baron" with low low Nobility is gonna get the cold shoulder, no matter how wealthy and finely dressed he is.

    I myself like the mechanic. It gives your actions more of an in-game effect beyond "I'm Lawful Evil so Holy weapons do extra damage to me and I make Paladins uncomfortable".


    Mostly that they're really, really weak...and more to the point, <SNIP>
    For a more detailed assessment, check out this long-beloved guide: Zaq's Truenamer guide/warning.
    Yeah, I started reading that this morning. Pretty much has all the same problems I saw and encountered in play with the TNamer. :( A shame, really. I like the idea... really, I do. :'(
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batou1976 View Post
    Yeah, I started reading that this morning. Pretty much has all the same problems I saw and encountered in play with the TNamer. :( A shame, really. I like the idea... really, I do. :'(
    Most people do - why do you think that it's ranked so highly?

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    Default Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc

    I'm rare in that I quite like the alignment system - but I regard it as highly setting specific. There are some game worlds where knowing which cosmic forces you actions draw the attention of is quite important, but for those game worlds that don't, it's probably an unecessary burden.

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    Default Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc

    To me the biggest unsatisfying question of the alignment system is probably this: why is a flesh-eating tiger Neutral while a flesh-eating zombie is Evil? Both are mindless predators just trying to survive; how does being undead make you less entitled to sate your carnivorous hunger with the tacit approval of the gods who protect the natural order?

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    Default Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc

    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
    To me the biggest unsatisfying question of the alignment system is probably this: why is a flesh-eating tiger Neutral while a flesh-eating zombie is Evil? Both are mindless predators just trying to survive; how does being undead make you less entitled to sate your carnivorous hunger with the tacit approval of the gods who protect the natural order?
    Tigers have an Intelligence score of 2.

    Key phrase here is 'gods who protect the natural order'. A tiger eats what it needs to survive (some exceptions apply, naturally), but a zombie just eats. Unendingly. At least the tiger will eventually die and feed the grass, taking his place in the Circle of Life. The zombie? Not so much.

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    Default Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc

    Also, I've never heard of a zombie starving, for whatever that's worth. Zombies don't need to eat to survive, they just eat because they're compelled to do so.

    Of course, judging the morality of a mindless creature literally compelled to act in a certain fashion, with no ability to even consider its actions much less resist said compulsion, is more than a bit absurd.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Answerer View Post
    Also, I've never heard of a zombie starving, for whatever that's worth. Zombies don't need to eat to survive, they just eat because they're compelled to do so.

    Of course, judging the morality of a mindless creature literally compelled to act in a certain fashion, with no ability to even consider its actions much less resist said compulsion, is more than a bit absurd.
    You hit on it here. They key is that, in both cases, their alignment is not a function of their actions. Both beings lack agency, and thus their alignment is not a fuction of their actions: in terms of morality, they are essentially objects.

    But in D&D, objects can be Evil. Evil in this case becomes a question of history or design, rather than actions: an artifact is designed to be powered by the torment of the innocent, it can be Evil even before it is ever used. If a place has horrors beyond horrors committed at it, it can be Evil even if it never does more than make people in the area uncomfortable.

    These patterns reflect, essentially, Contagion Thinking. While this is something we tend to avoid in modern philosophical discussions of morality, is something that is deeply ingrained in our thinking process as humans. It's the same congnative element that makes us uncomfortable with reclaiming wastewater, even when it can be made far cleaner than the water we take from the ground.

    It's also heavily shaped our thinking about morality throughout history, even if they ways in which it did so aren't actually valid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hecuba View Post
    It's the same congnative element that makes us uncomfortable with reclaiming wastewater, even when it can be made far cleaner than the water we take from the ground.
    Or that causes us to inherently flinch away from people who are different from us in any measurable way, especially one that hints at a possibility of disease, regardless of whether the disease is actually contagious or not - we instinctively assume it was, because we developed that instinct long before we knew anything about how contagion actually worked.

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    Default Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc

    I just want to say "sorry" for my part in making this thread devolve into an alignment debate. I know I didn't start it, but I did feed the flames. That being said… actually, I guess we are still kinda on topic, just focusing on one or two candidates and debating thoroughly. Carry on…
    Last edited by Ksheep; 2012-07-16 at 12:30 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonofzeal View Post
    Honestly, I think most of the conflict comes from our culture generally using Consequentialist ethics (generally Utilitarianism), and D&D generally assuming a Deontological framework that makes sense within the genre but clashes with people's intuition.
    No, not the genre. The setting. Alignment is setting-dependent, because it is a cultural construct disguised as a cosmic force. And in the traditional setting with the traditional assumptions, it is consistent and it mostly works.

    Well, it works if you ignore half of the rules, those in BoED an BoVD, otherwise Robin Hood and his Merry Men would be consistently committing Evil acts "objectively". Oh, and you must resign from using character concepts inexplicably disallowed by class restrictions. Other than that, sure, it works. But try to use alignment as written in a different setting or with different assumptions, and it starts falling apart.

    [I'm spoilering the rest of it, because it starts to look like derailing, I'm not sure. ]
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    Mind you, I'm not using modern morality here ("keeping my oath at this point would be bad for everyone, so I won't, and I don't expect any consequences or anyone to be offended".) I understand perfectly how the setting's culture may be different than my own. But D&D is not any more based on a single (imaginary) culture.

    In the traditional setting, you had that pseudo-medieval, weirdly polytheistic, NW European heroic high fantasy, where you obviously played someone from the dominant culture, and you fought skeletons and goblins without thinking about it. That's not a genre, though. That's a merely a subgenre, a setting, and a whole lot of assumptions.

    But now, even in the core rules, we have Rennaissance elements, we have Oriental influences, we have Barbarians (who should only be Chaotic to the eyes of the neighboring Empire), we have half-orcs as a Core race, we have blowguns for our Polynesian or Mesoamerican natives (who incidentally are screwed, because poison use is "objectively" and "unconditionally" evil). And the non-core rules shatter the usual cultural conventions, too. Goblins are entirely playable. We have rules supporting a Stone Age environment. And so on.

    Yet, we are still firmly in the Heroic Fantasy genre. But the traditional setting isn't a given any more. If you try to focus on a different culture, you'll be disappointed to learn that alignment doesn't fit any more. If you try to build your own cosmology, one without aligned planes and embodiments of Good and Evil for example, you'll find that objective alignment doesn't even make sense in the world, it shouldn't exist as a cosmic force at all.

    Fringe cases? Maybe. But seemingly supported by the printed material. And impossible to pull off properly and consistently, unless you throw alignment out of the window. Because alignment interacts with half the rules in the game, and that's what makes it so problematic. If it was just a fluff thing, you wouldn't see another alignment thread pop up every few days. And I wouldn't be ranting about it, either. :)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuulvheysoon View Post
    I don't get it; how, exactly, is this badly written?
    it doesn't say you count as dragon blood for prerequisites. it says you automatically qualify for anything that has dragon blood as a prerequisite. so, the prerequisites for everything become "random stuff + dragonblood subtype; or dragon type (no random stuff)". while i'm sure they meant that it counts as dragonblood, that's not how it is written. therefore, badly written.

    Quote Originally Posted by RotD pg. 4
    Dragons automatically qualify for any classes, prestige classes, racial substitution levels, feats, powers, or spells that require
    the dragonblood subtype. Races presented in this book that
    have the dragonblood subtype include dragonborn, spellscale,
    kobold, and draconic creatures. Should a creature acquire the
    dragon type, it loses the dragonblood subtype

    Quote Originally Posted by St Fan View Post
    I have to take issue with this one:

    It has a specified duration: it clearly says "For the rest of your turn". So it cover your attacks for the round, as well as attacks of opportunity.

    It is specified as a ki ability. They fall usually into supernatural abilities.

    And I don't see why you would believe you're vulnerable to flames created by your own ki. That's silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by phb2 pg.79
    FIERY FIST
    By channeling your ki energy, you sheathe your limbs in
    magical fi re. Your unarmed strikes deal extra fi re damage.
    Prerequisites: Dex 13, Wis 13, Improved Unarmed Strike,
    Stunning Fist, base attack bonus +8.
    Benefi t: As a swift action, you can expend one of your uses
    of the Stunning Fist feat to surround your fi sts and feet in
    fl ame. For the rest of your turn, you gain an extra 1d6 points
    of fi re damage on your unarmed strikes.
    When you select this feat, you gain an additional daily use
    of Stunning Fist.
    Special: A fighter can select Fiery Fist as one of his fi ghter
    bonus feats. A monk with the Stunning Fist feat can select
    Fiery Fist as her bonus feat at 2nd level, even if she does not
    meet the other prerequisites.
    alright. i missed the duration part. however, nothing anywhere in the MM (primary source for Ex/Su/Sp abilites), the phb, or the phb2 says that the use of ki is a supernatural ability. and while i wouldn't actually say that you are damaged by your own fire, the rules don't specify it. that's why it's "badly written". oh, and it doesn't cover AoOs unless you get those AoOs during your turn. it's not a 1 round duration, it's a your turn duration.

    i'll remove 1 vote from fiery fist, and add it to die hard.
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    Default Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc

    Quote Originally Posted by lunar2 View Post
    it doesn't say you count as dragon blood for prerequisites. it says you automatically qualify for anything that has dragon blood as a prerequisite. so, the prerequisites for everything become "random stuff + dragonblood subtype; or dragon type (no random stuff)". while i'm sure they meant that it counts as dragonblood, that's not how it is written. therefore, badly written.
    Quote Originally Posted by Races of the Dragon
    Dragons automatically qualify for any classes, prestige classes, racial substitution levels, feats, powers, or spells that require the dragonblood subtype. Races presented in this book that have the dragonblood subtype include dragonborn, spellscale, kobold, and draconic creatures. Should a creature acquire the dragon type, it loses the dragonblood subtype.
    I'm... confused. It clearly states that Dragons automatically qualify for anything that requires the [dragonblood] subtype as a prerequisite. And you're saying that since it doesn't state that they count as [dragonblood] for prerequisites, it's badly written?

    Honestly, to me, the two terms are synonymous. I can see why you say that they could have just outright stated that all Dragons automatically obtain the [dragonblood] subtype. They probably didn't want to have to clutter the creature type with something they considered redundant (to be a Dragon [dragonblood] creature looks pretty silly, doesn't it?)

    That, or this way it was easier to integrate into games that didn't use RotD until recently. Or so they could continue printing just Dragons and wouldn't force people to learn a new subtype if they didn't have to.

    Can I use a pair of negative votes on this one?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuulvheysoon View Post
    I'm... confused. It clearly states that Dragons automatically qualify for anything that requires the [dragonblood] subtype as a prerequisite. And you're saying that since it doesn't state that they count as [dragonblood] for prerequisites, it's badly written?

    Honestly, to me, the two terms are synonymous. I can see why you say that they could have just outright stated that all Dragons automatically obtain the [dragonblood] subtype. They probably didn't want to have to clutter the creature type with something they considered redundant (to be a Dragon [dragonblood] creature looks pretty silly, doesn't it?)

    That, or this way it was easier to integrate into games that didn't use RotD until recently. Or so they could continue printing just Dragons and wouldn't force people to learn a new subtype if they didn't have to.

    Can I use a pair of negative votes on this one?
    Actually, logically speaking Lunar2 has the right of it. Let's say some PrC requires 9th level spells and the dragonblood subtype.

    "Dragons automatically qualify for any classes, prestige classes, racial substitution levels, feats, powers, or spells that require the dragonblood subtype"

    Is it a PrC? Yes. Does it require the dragonblood subtype? Yes. Thus, any dragon automatically qualifies for that PrC. Even if they don't have 9th level spells they automatically qualify for it, because that's what it says.

    It's obviously unintended, but taken literally that's what it means.
    Last edited by sonofzeal; 2012-07-16 at 06:46 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JadePhoenix View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonofzeal View Post
    Actually, logically speaking Lunar2 has the right of it. Let's say some PrC requires 9th level spells and the dragonblood subtype.

    "Dragons automatically qualify for any classes, prestige classes, racial substitution levels, feats, powers, or spells that require the dragonblood subtype"

    Is it a PrC? Yes. Does it require the dragonblood subtype? Yes. Thus, any dragon automatically qualifies for that PrC. Even if they don't have 9th level spells they automatically qualify for it, because that's what it says.

    It's obviously unintended, but taken literally that's what it means.
    I have to admit, I've never seen it that way.

    Huh.

    Everyone I've ever played with/talked to has just used that as dragon counts as [dragonblood].

    Interesting....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuulvheysoon View Post
    I have to admit, I've never seen it that way.

    Huh.

    Everyone I've ever played with/talked to has just used that as dragon counts as [dragonblood].

    Interesting....
    Well yeah, that's obviously the intent and I'd run it your way too. It's just poorly worded, which was exactly the point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JadePhoenix View Post
    sonofzeal, you're like a megazord of awesome and win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
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    Default Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc

    Random selection of single-vote entries:
    {table=head]Name | Type
    SLAs ignoring components | Rule
    free actions | Rule
    Monkey Lunge | Feat
    Wish | Spell
    Incantatrix | Prestige Class
    Divine Metamagic | Feat
    dead | Rule
    Greater Mirror Image | Spell
    Factotum | Base Class
    Planar Ally/Planar Binding | Spell[/table]

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    Nearly half the suggestions (51) have only one vote. There are 14 negative votes so far; 31 voters have used all their votes, 22 have only used one, and 18 of the remaining 21 have used between 2 and 5 votes each.


    Quote Originally Posted by lunar2 View Post
    it doesn't say you count as dragon blood for prerequisites. it says you automatically qualify for anything that has dragon blood as a prerequisite. so, the prerequisites for everything become "random stuff + dragonblood subtype; or dragon type (no random stuff)". while i'm sure they meant that it counts as dragonblood, that's not how it is written. therefore, badly written.
    Yeah, that's what I was afraid of. It's a lot like dragons auto-qualifying for epic feats, without needing to be epic. (IIRC, it's not even limited to True Dragons, so all the usual suspects — DWK, wyverns, half-dragons, etc etc — can abuse that.) Of course, it's worse in this case because they apparently don't even need to meet any other prereqs!

    i'll remove 1 vote from fiery fist, and add it to die hard.
    Specifically? Are you referring to the fact that it doesn't, by RAW, change when you fall unconscious? Because yeah, that's kind of stupid.
    Last edited by TuggyNE; 2012-07-16 at 07:33 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
    That's RAW for you; 100% Rules-Legal, 110% silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuggyne View Post
    Yeah, that's what I was afraid of. It's a lot like dragons auto-qualifying for epic feats, without needing to be epic. (IIRC, it's not even limited to True Dragons, so all the usual suspects — DWK, wyverns, half-dragons, etc etc — can abuse that.) Of course, it's worse in this case because they apparently don't even need to meet any other prereqs!
    Dragons only qualify to take Epic feats if they're Old (Age Category) or older. Considering that only True Dragons have age categories, and that the general consensus is that DWK are not True Dragons, it's not as badly written as it appears.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconomicon
    Epic Feats

    These feats are available to characters of 21st level or higher. Dragons of at least old age can also choose these feats even if they have no class levels. A selection of epic feats appropriate for dragons is presented here. See te Epic Level Handbook for more epic feats.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuulvheysoon View Post
    Considering that only True Dragons have age categories
    This is not true. Draconomicon said it was, but Races of the Dragon included a new Dragon (dragonwrought kobold) that did have age categories (including Old), but was not a True Dragon. This is OK because the reason dragonwrought kobolds are not True Dragons is because of a table in Races of the Dragon that explicitly states that it supersedes Draconomicon.

    But yes, based on the quote you provided, Old or older dragonwrought kobolds do qualify for Epic feats. They don't qualify, IIRC, for Sovereign Archetypes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Answerer View Post
    This is not true. Draconomicon said it was, but Races of the Dragon included a new Dragon (dragonwrought kobold) that did have age categories (including Old), but was not a True Dragon. This is OK because the reason dragonwrought kobolds are not True Dragons is because of a table in Races of the Dragon that explicitly states that it supersedes Draconomicon.

    But yes, based on the quote you provided, Old or older dragonwrought kobolds do qualify for Epic feats. They don't qualify, IIRC, for Sovereign Archetypes.
    Dammit!

    And here I was thinking that all the hubbub about DWK had been resolved...

    Actually, on that note, a vote for Dragonwrought Kobolds?

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    Default Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc

    1 vote for the Polymorph spells.
    1 vote for Epic Spellcasting.
    1 vote for Monk. (I would be willing to shift this to a specific vote for Monk Proficiencies if a few other people do likewise, making it a significant entity on the list.)
    1 vote for Gate.
    1 vote for Adamantine Horror.
    1 vote for Manipulate Form.
    1 vote for Diplomacy.
    1 vote for Bloodlines.

    I'll keep my last two in reserve for now.
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    Default Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    1 vote for Monk. (I would be willing to shift this to a specific vote for Monk Proficiencies if a few other people do likewise, making it a significant entity on the list.)
    While I'm in favor of narrowing down the entries to key elements, the lack of unarmed strike proficiency is just one of the problems with the way the Monk class is written.
    • Unarmed Strike says "There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed." What that apparently means is that the Monk can make off-hand attacks, but doesn't have the usual ˝ STR bonus damage limit. But that's not how it's written.
    • The Bonus Feats class feature is clear right up to where it says "A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them." When applying fighting styles or ACFs which change the bonus feats, does "these" refer to Monk bonus feats in general, or just the 6 feats mentioned in the base class?
    • Many Monk abilities (AC Bonus, Flurry of Blows, Fast Movement) only work if the Monk is unarmored. But Evasion works if the Monk is unarmored or wearing light armor. Huh?
    • Similarly, the Monk's Fast Movement is nifty, but is completely useless in relation to their Flurry of Blows.
    • Ki Strike says "At 4th level, a monk’s unarmed attacks are empowered with ki." They don't say what ki is, or define it in the Glossary.
    • Diamond Body says "a monk gains immunity to poisons of all kinds." but that's a Supernatural ability.
      Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise.
      They don't "note otherwise" in the Monk class, so how does that work?
    • The Monk can use a Quivering Palm attack "once a week". Is that an interval or a calendar week?
    • Tongue of the Sun and Moon lets the Monk "speak with any living creature". Can the creature respond? What about if the creature doesn't normally speak? Can the Monk understand if it does?
    No, I really think the entire Monk class qualifies for the "worst-written" list.

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    Default Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    While I'm in favor of narrowing down the entries to key elements, the lack of unarmed strike proficiency is just one of the problems with the way the Monk class is written.
    Yeah, a lot of it is bad. But the rest just doesn't make me facepalm quite as hard as the unarmed strike oversight does.

    [*]Many Monk abilities (AC Bonus, Flurry of Blows, Fast Movement) only work if the Monk is unarmored. But Evasion works if the Monk is unarmored or wearing light armor. Huh?
    That one I actually approve of. Abilities with the same name should have the same properties no matter what class they come from. (I'm glaring at you, HiPS ... not to mention Uncanny Dodge and 'AC Bonus'!) So copying the Rogue's ability to use Evasion in light armor is good.
    Last edited by Draz74; 2012-07-17 at 03:33 PM.
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    Default Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    While I'm in favor of narrowing down the entries to key elements, the lack of unarmed strike proficiency is just one of the problems with the way the Monk class is written.
    • Unarmed Strike says "There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed." What that apparently means is that the Monk can make off-hand attacks, but doesn't have the usual ˝ STR bonus damage limit. But that's not how it's written.
    • The Bonus Feats class feature is clear right up to where it says "A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them." When applying fighting styles or ACFs which change the bonus feats, does "these" refer to Monk bonus feats in general, or just the 6 feats mentioned in the base class?
    • Many Monk abilities (AC Bonus, Flurry of Blows, Fast Movement) only work if the Monk is unarmored. But Evasion works if the Monk is unarmored or wearing light armor. Huh?
    • Similarly, the Monk's Fast Movement is nifty, but is completely useless in relation to their Flurry of Blows.
    • Ki Strike says "At 4th level, a monk’s unarmed attacks are empowered with ki." They don't say what ki is, or define it in the Glossary.
    • Diamond Body says "a monk gains immunity to poisons of all kinds." but that's a Supernatural ability. They don't "note otherwise" in the Monk class, so how does that work?
    • The Monk can use a Quivering Palm attack "once a week". Is that an interval or a calendar week?
    • Tongue of the Sun and Moon lets the Monk "speak with any living creature". Can the creature respond? What about if the creature doesn't normally speak? Can the Monk understand if it does?
    No, I really think the entire Monk class qualifies for the "worst-written" list.
    1. bonus feats: this isn't because the class was badly written. it's because the monk was published before the introduction of ACFs. in other words, it is the ACFs that are badly written in this instance, not the monk class itself.

    2. fast movement: a Druid's spellcasting is completely useless in relation to their wildshape as is. a rogue's trap sense is completely useless in relation to their trap finding (if you find the trap, you don't need trap sense). having unrelated class features doesn't mean that the class is badly written. unfocused, yes. badly written, no.

    3. ki strike: the description following the part you described explains exactly what ki does for a monk.
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    Default Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    That one I actually approve of. Abilities with the same name should have the same properties no matter what class they come from. ... So copying the Rogue's ability to use Evasion in light armor is good.
    So the problem is instead with the Ring of Evasion, which has no armor limits?

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    Default Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    Yeah, a lot of it is bad. But the rest just doesn't make me facepalm quite as hard as the unarmed strike oversight does.
    The problem with the monk is that it looks like a really cool, versatile, and effective class on paper, whereas in reality it's nothing of the sort. Bad options that look bad aren't such a big problem because nobody will use them. Bad options that look good, on the other hand, are a common It's A Trap for newbies.
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    Default Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    [*]The Monk can use a Quivering Palm attack "once a week". Is that an interval or a calendar week?
    Shouldn't the same objection apply to every ability that can be used once per day?
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    Default Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    So the problem is instead with the Ring of Evasion, which has no armor limits?
    Yep. If it just said what it did, instead of referencing the Evasion ability, it would be more consistent: easier to remember the differences, and less debates/arguments caused.
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    Default Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc

    Quote Originally Posted by HeadlessMermaid View Post
    Shouldn't the same objection apply to every ability that can be used once per day?
    Quite possibly. However, the preponderance of citations indicates that items which replenish daily uses do so at sunrise, so that makes a consistent pattern to apply.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    Quite possibly. However, the preponderance of citations indicates that items which replenish daily uses do so at sunrise, so that makes a consistent pattern to apply.
    Then there are the abilities which imply that you need to rest 8 hours, or after an hour of prayer/meditation, or…
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