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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Force Vs. Magic.

    The Force is a complicated issue. In general I agree that it's overpowered in the expanded universe as well as the prequel films and TV series to some extent, particularly with lightning; however, it's the Force... with the Force anything should be possible. It's supposed to be mysterious and supernatural. You have to hint at the impossible, while still keeping it within reasonable levels. Tricky. And it inevitably leads to escalation. Of course, magic is the same way in many respects.

    One problem with Star Wars is the EU's obsession with the film era and the film characters. 25,000 years of galactic history and only half a century of it matters, and it all involved the same handful of individuals. Well, maybe 90% of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thubby View Post
    EU cant be cannon without making the movies either terrible or non-cannon.
    "Either?"
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    First, please don't start threads with ideas you don't support just to see what reactions you get. That's almost the definition of trolling.

    Second, the whole "blue text" thing is not a forum rule or even a recommended procedure. If someone wants to do it in their own posts, fine, but everyone should stop telling people that they "need to" or "should have" posted in blue just because they're being sarcastic/ironic/whatever.

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    Default Re: Force Vs. Magic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    I'm not seeing a contradiction here unless the Cloud City fight thing is coming from a later mention by Luke somewhere down the road or you are talking about the movie novelization versus the movie itself which are both G-Canon and arguably here the book would still be an additional detail not a contradiction.
    No, I'm talking about some EU feats done by Vader which would have significantly altered the film - again above posts cover this, cannot remember who did them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    The rest are not contradictions
    SW canon works by if say Vader could blow up a mountian in EU stuff prior to the movies, then in the movie cannot stop Luke from plummeting in Cloud City, then that is a contradiction which is them overrriden by G-canon which says it could not have happened, ergo invalid feat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    That's of course even granting there is inconsistent. For the clearest example here: Palps big force-storms. They wouldn't help in any case presented in the movies.
    Rubbish. in the Dark Empire series he destroys a fleet, so if he could have killed the Rebellion easily enough. Ergo, invalid feat, overridden by G-canon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    There is no contradiction in him not using them
    Handwaving the issue away.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    because why show himself so openly when he running both sides of the conflict already.
    If he was that powerful he WOULD NOT need to hide and simply wipe them out. Very simple logic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    That covers the prequels leaving him only involved in RotJ, where his overconfidence is the entire point. Why exert effort when he has an invincible fully operational battle-station to do all the work for him.
    More handwaving the issue and making excuses. The fact of the matter is he would not need a Death Star, therefore it creates contradiction there too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    The entire point of the unique canon tiers in SW is to allow things like Force storms to be simply reconciled and still count. Its a permissive system by design, though there are of course rough edges.
    Wrong.

    It is to try and reconcile the abortion that is Star Wars books, and fails, massively so. Kind of why they did not bother with Trek and declared them non-canon. Simpler, less messy, and easier. Also more honest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    However until Lucas makes Holiday Special 2: Wookie Boogaloo set when the main cast is all old and where Chewie is still alive, Han and Leia never had Jacen/Jaina/Anakin, and Mara Jade never existed there is no reason to disregard the EU except where specifically nessecary.
    There is where there are contradictions with between C & G-canon.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Force Vs. Magic.

    There are two main lines in the original trilogy that I think caused the EU power surge.

    “Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? Hmm? Hmm. And well you should not. For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship.”

    Basically the scene implied that you could pick up anything with the force, if you just believed it.

    And of course,

    Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.

    Which implies you can use the force to do more powerful things than even destroying planets with the force.


    Those two lines have probably been used to justify ANYTHING an authors fevered imagination can come up with. "But Lucas! Dude! You even SAID that the force is more powerful than the Death Star! So clearly Luke should be able to use a super star destroyer as a baseball bat to take out an entire fleet just with the power of his mind!"
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    Default Re: Force Vs. Magic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kinslayer View Post
    No, no. That would be a crossover. I meant Unicron in place of the unicorn in The Last Unicorn story.
    Oh, man. Now all I can picture is Shmendrick standing between Unicron and Optimus shouting "Don't hurt him!"

    But for the Vader vs. Voldemort? The larger issue on Avada Kedavra was whether or not it could be blocked by a light saber. The eventual concession was that a light saber could be considered a weapon on the same legendary level as the Sword of Gryffindor, making it capable of deflecting AK.

    That didn't give Vader an automatic win, though, as Voldemort had many more weapons at his disposal and did not always open with that spell when dueling a worthy opponent. Neither side really admitted defeat unless I missed some vital postings. I still say Voldemort had the edge in mobility, flexibility, stealth and raw destructive power.

    And -- Fan -- I do have to keep reminding myself that episodes IV through VI were poor showings for Force users. Luke's training was rushed and ultimately incomplete. Vader was crippled by having most of his body replaced with clumsy cybernetics rather than the Force-friendly flesh of a true Sith. Obi-Wan was an old man past his prime. Palpatine was equally decrepit and (as was considered at the time), rotted from a lifetime of being exposed to the very definition of corruption and decay. Yoda was on his death bed and only clinging to life so that he can hastily prepare Luke.

    Compared to others at the peak of their abilities, the four force users of the original trilogy were actually quite pathetic.
    Last edited by Fragenstein; 2012-07-13 at 04:21 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fragenstein View Post
    Compared to others at the peak of their abilities, the four force users of the original trilogy were actually quite pathetic.
    If one is to accept the EU as being largely or entirely stuff that actually happened in the same universe as the events of the Original Trilogy, this is pretty much the correct conclusion to come to.

    It's also why many people don't accept the Star-Wars Canon structure or the EU in general, because that's certainly not the way they were presented in the films.

    If I recall correctly, George Lucas is reputed to still consider the Christmas Special as canon.
    (Wiki says that elements of it that were used elsewhere are C-Canon, anything not mentioned elsewhere is S-Canon).
    So yeah.

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    Default Re: Force Vs. Magic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogerd View Post
    G-canon overrides the lower levels of canon when there is a contradiction.
    This requires a contradiction to exist first, which are not merely Fridge Logic opinions but conflicts of facts within the story.

    A contradiction is which squad Luke was in at the Battle of Yavin, the movies onscreen say "Red 5" so that was his callsign for that mission whatever the novel says (Blue) despite Lucas having "wrote" both. However the added scenes in the novel such as Luke watching the space-battle or Biggs on Tatooine is still G-canon even though they never made theatrical cut of the movie.

    A contradiction is not "well why didn't [Character X] do [Action Y] because they did it in [EU story Z]" that merely is at most an inconsistency in performance.

    Which at a broad level are simplicity itself to cover. Just because an Olympic level athlete holds the world record time does not mean they then meet/beat it in every subsequent race.

    Now there are good reasons to bring up this inconsistency because that IS something that MUST be taken into account. Whatever happens in the EU (or hell, the prequels) nothing makes Palps flat-out always immune to being thrown off a bridge to his death... because that worked.

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    Default Re: Force Vs. Magic.

    On the issue of The force users?

    1. Wouldn't it be hard for the "Light" side users of the force NOT be operating at peak conditions, due to the fact the Dark side is so stong in the movies?

    2. Why would The Emporer and Darth Vader really use those powerful Force abilities? Wasn't it the way of the Sith to operate behind the scenes and use lackeys and henchmen? They where operating in secrecy for 1,000 or so. I think it would be hard to go all out when you have been used to hiding for so long, all your training and what not.

    3. Everyone always makes allusions to how "weak" everyone appereared to be in the movies. For instance, Darth Vader in Cloud City. I maintain he wasn't trying his best, cause he was trying to turn Luke. Also, when does everyone do everything perfect all the time?

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    Default Re: Force Vs. Magic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyberwulf View Post
    1. Wouldn't it be hard for the "Light" side users of the force NOT be operating at peak conditions, due to the fact the Dark side is so stong in the movies?
    No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive...

    The dark siders are in charge of things, yes. But I'm not so sure that the 'imbalance' of the force in general should be taken that literally.

    3. Everyone always makes allusions to how "weak" everyone appereared to be in the movies. For instance, Darth Vader in Cloud City. I maintain he wasn't trying his best, cause he was trying to turn Luke. Also, when does everyone do everything perfect all the time?
    The average Joe rim-dweller's allowed to screw up from time to time. The people that the movies revolve around are capable of ruling entire galaxies. That sort of person is usually at the top of their game all the time, otherwise they'd have fallen off the ladder a long time ago.
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    Default Re: Force Vs. Magic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    This requires a contradiction to exist first, which are not merely Fridge Logic opinions but conflicts of facts within the story.
    Like you know mega-force powers in EU not seen in the original six films, you mean? Or contradictions in firepower?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    A contradiction is which squad Luke was in at the Battle of Yavin, the movies onscreen say "Red 5" so that was his callsign for that mission whatever the novel says (Blue) despite Lucas having "wrote" both. However the added scenes in the novel such as Luke watching the space-battle or Biggs on Tatooine is still G-canon even though they never made theatrical cut of the movie.
    No, this is a contradiction:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkBiY...eature=related

    Here is Galen Marek being able to pull an ISD down yet it seems odd Vader who can match struggles with other stuff in the films. Yet both exist, and if Jedi's could do that they would not need clones, at all. Thus we need to reconcile to G-canon.

    Oooh, look another: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5LJX...eature=related

    Funny that Vader couldn't do that in the films, and had to resort to lifting people up, by hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    A contradiction is not "well why didn't [Character X] do [Action Y] because they did it in [EU story Z]" that merely is at most an inconsistency in performance.
    Yes it is. That's a contradiction. Sort of why EU firepower doesn't work as it would render most ground battles moot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    Which at a broad level are simplicity itself to cover. Just because an Olympic level athlete holds the world record time does not mean they then meet/beat it in every subsequent race.
    But his levels, barring injury are usually in the same kind of ball-park time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    Now there are good reasons to bring up this inconsistency because that IS something that MUST be taken into account. Whatever happens in the EU (or hell, the prequels) nothing makes Palps flat-out always immune to being thrown off a bridge to his death... because that worked.
    Also by EU standard it should be rare for a Jedi to actually get shot and die by blaster fire.

    The ICS that portrays the Jedi Order as heartless monsters...or the Clone Wars, which has actually rewritten entire swaths of canon right before our eyes and has its blessing from George Lucas?

    And the fact that Lucas goes out of his way to make battles look like something from WW2 should be a good indicator that EU Jedi cannot do what they appear to.

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    Default Re: Force Vs. Magic.

    I think George Lucas said somewhere (or if not him, some other guy who had a big hand in TFC) that Galen was the most powerful force user who lived, which is why he managed to pull a friggin' Star Destroyer into a planet.

    Also, what is this ICS thing you guys keep mentioning?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fragenstein View Post
    The average Joe rim-dweller's allowed to screw up from time to time. The people that the movies revolve around are capable of ruling entire galaxies. That sort of person is usually at the top of their game all the time, otherwise they'd have fallen off the ladder a long time ago.
    No one is immune to screwing up. Unless Power Creep Power Seep is a mandated rule of fiction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GungHo, on Battletech
    The Atlas is also goofy but it has that whole "Stay Puft Marshmallow Man" menacing smile thing going for it. The guy who drew that one up was obviously taken to the Nutcracker when he was a child... and he was screaming in terror the entire time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Ah. Thank you Gylphstone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxios View Post
    I think George Lucas said somewhere (or if not him, some other guy who had a big hand in TFC) that Galen was the most powerful force user who lived, which is why he managed to pull a friggin' Star Destroyer into a planet.

    Also, what is this ICS thing you guys keep mentioning?
    I'm gonna need a source for that. Mainly because EVERY other force user is "the most powerful force user who lived", and that unlike Revan/Anakin/Whoeverthehellelse, this raises the question of WHY he never got mentioned in the films by anyone, or even suggested to exist.-

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    Default Re: Force Vs. Magic.

    Well, in the case of Revan, dying roughly 4,000 years before the movies take place may have something to do with it.

    EDIT: I should say I don't think Revan is considered to have existed in the movies, I mean that he/she doesn't necessarily contradict the movies by being the most powerful force user. Though, that probably contradicts other "Most powerful force users."
    Last edited by Mystic Muse; 2012-07-13 at 05:25 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayngfet View Post
    I'm gonna need a source for that. Mainly because EVERY other force user is "the most powerful force user who lived", and that unlike Revan/Anakin/Whoeverthehellelse, this raises the question of WHY he never got mentioned in the films by anyone, or even suggested to exist.-
    I can't provide a source to that. I just remember reading it a couple years back.
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    Default Re: Force Vs. Magic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxios View Post
    I think George Lucas said somewhere (or if not him, some other guy who had a big hand in TFC) that Galen was the most powerful force user who lived, which is why he managed to pull a friggin' Star Destroyer into a planet.
    After Sidious found a kyber crystal, Sidious became the most powerful Force user in history.
    http://www.supershadow.com/starwars/lucas/
    http://www.supershadow.com/starwars/powerful_sith.html
    http://www.supershadow.com/starwars/powerful_jedi.html
    http://www.supershadow.com/starwars/midi.html

    EDIT: Due to later information presented by Battleship this evidence is retracted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxios View Post
    Also, what is this ICS thing you guys keep mentioning?
    Last edited by Rogerd; 2012-07-13 at 05:40 PM.

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    Did you know that eight out of five dentists say that studying in the library is six-bajillion times more effective than studying in your shower?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mercenary Pen View Post
    And there I was thinking that Midichlorian counts were a variety of force-sensitive hereditary noble- most notably Dooku.

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    Default Re: Force Vs. Magic.

    Here are some more contradictions: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Zillo_Beast

    if they had mega powers they should have been able to subdue it, yet they could not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Battleship789 View Post
    Don't use SS as a source. It is not reliable at all.
    Although there is a George Lucas interview on there, or is that bogus?

    Quote Originally Posted by Battleship789 View Post
    Also, Fridge Logic =/= Contradiction.
    I'm being dumb here, but can you clarify the point here for me?
    Last edited by Rogerd; 2012-07-13 at 05:35 PM.

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    Last edited by Maxios; 2012-07-13 at 05:36 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxios View Post
    I don't see Garen on any of those lists
    That would be because that there is a dead website. (And has been for some time.) I would find anything on that site to be suspect: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/SuperShadow

    Edit:

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogerd View Post
    *snip*
    Although there is a George Lucas interview on there, or is that bogus?
    Bogus. Very bogus.
    Last edited by Battleship789; 2012-07-13 at 05:54 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercenary Pen View Post
    And there I was thinking that Midichlorian counts were a variety of force-sensitive hereditary noble- most notably Dooku.

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    The whole, "<insert Force-user here>, IS the most POWERFUL Jedi of all TIME!" is, to me just alot of talk. Its like vacuum cleaners, to be precise. Or dish soap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyberwulf View Post
    The whole, "<insert Force-user here>, IS the most POWERFUL Jedi of all TIME!" is, to me just alot of talk. Its like vacuum cleaners, to be precise. Or dish soap.
    "Strike me down and Ill clean the floor faster than you can imagine"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogerd View Post
    "Strike me down and Ill clean the floor faster than you can imagine"
    ...can I quote this?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxios View Post
    ...can I quote this?
    Sig away ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxios View Post
    I think George Lucas said somewhere (or if not him, some other guy who had a big hand in TFC) that Galen was the most powerful force user who lived, which is why he managed to pull a friggin' Star Destroyer into a planet.
    I've seen Lucas quoted at least once as saying that Luke was/is the most powerful. I suspect his record has shifted over the years. (Like him wearing the Han Shot First shirt...)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogerd View Post
    I'm being dumb here, but can you clarify the point here for me?
    At the core because Fridge Logic is a different concept. Its a question you find yourself lingering over later. Its a might involve a contradiction but it the two are not the same thing.

    A contradiction is two facts in the story that cannot both be true. Luke was in Red squadron in the movies, and Blue squadron in the book novelization. These are talking about the same event and obviously cannot both be true.

    For a different example in the Thrawn Trilogy written prior to the prequels a gap of IIRC around 40 years is quoted between the Clone Wars and the present time of the books itself 5 years after RotJ so 9 ABY. However when the prequels came out (I understand Lucas changed his mind) this became more like 20 years. This is complicated because the event (devastation of the Noghri homeworld) is an important plot point and involves Darth Vader being present as Darth Vader.

    This is an outright contradiction you cannot explain away because it would require Vader/Empire before Vader/Empire... obviously the prequel movies overrule despite being vastly inferior works but even this does not invalidate the books which have for a lasting legacy in among other thing Coruscant. And the retcon was simple, the dates were lost in translation by the Noghri. I understand Zahn has written several fix fics providing retcons since his original trilogy was so heavily savaged but is still the cornerstone of the EU.

    Anyways a character doing something in one place and not in another is (perhaps) Fridge Logic... it only becomes a contradiction if they explicitly deny a capability in another source. Not they can't in this particular situation, but flat out can't.

    Not Luke can Jedi Mind Trick a one species/individual but not a different one, but if he claims he doesn't know the Jedi Mind Trick when its later in his life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyberwulf View Post
    The whole, "<insert Force-user here>, IS the most POWERFUL Jedi of all TIME!" is, to me just alot of talk. Its like vacuum cleaners, to be precise. Or dish soap.
    Force power levels have been lame since Kyp Durron showed up. Let's call 'em all Skywalker-tier and stop caring.
    Last edited by Soras Teva Gee; 2012-07-13 at 11:38 PM.

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    I never got Lucas messing with Thrawn Trilogy dates. I mean obviously he's gonna do what he's gonna do but that kind of series is something he HAS to have read at least a couple of times before starting episode 1, and is built into so many other novels it can't simply be ignored without ignoring major characters and concepts that became institutions that were almost as important as the movies themselves, if not as important to some books.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayngfet View Post
    I never got Lucas messing with Thrawn Trilogy dates. I mean obviously he's gonna do what he's gonna do but that kind of series is something he HAS to have read at least a couple of times before starting episode 1, and is built into so many other novels it can't simply be ignored without ignoring major characters and concepts that became institutions that were almost as important as the movies themselves, if not as important to some books.
    I don't agree that Lucas "has to" have read Zahn's novels. I'd certainly say he should have, since he (or at least, his agents) approved it as the First Official Star Wars Fiction in about a decade. And I'd also say it would have been useful for him to have done so, since it might have given him some feel for what his audience thought about the OT/expected from the PT (things like "in a binary-morality setting like SW, of course the Dark Side of The Force is balanced by a Light Side - so talking about 'bringing balance to the Force' is not going to be well received" or "obviously the Clone Wars involved the Galactic Republic fighting desperately to hold off the endlessly-replenished forces of Eeeevil Cloners") - if nothing else, so he could make it clear that the was intentionally subverting those expectations instead of appearing to blunder.

    But. Lucas in interviews has been extremely dismissive of the EU. He's made it clear that as far as he's is concerned, only the material he creates is Real Star Wars. I think it's unfortunate, and that this attitude does a disservice to everyone involved - including Lucas himself - but at the end of the day, it is his IP.
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    The Light Side of the Force is another thing that bothers me. The Force is a pure concept of the unity of life. The Dark side is being selfish and careless with it. A Light Side is really just silly.
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