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  1. - Top - End - #91
    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: Force Vs. Magic.

    I think they would still be Analogies... Cuase fire for fire .. Lightning for lightning, Energy for Energy. Just because Wizards don't have the same kind of power source as Force Users, that shouldn't mean you cut off the source of force Users power or contrive it into something Wizards have defenses already set up in place.
    I think you're still not getting the whole transparency thing. Saying Force Defenses stop Wizard Attacks and Wizard Defenses stop Force Attacks isn't some sort arbitrary slant to favor wizards, it's a basic tenet of vs. discussions to level the playing field. Otherwise, both sides have a vast assortment of unblockable attacks and the entire discussion fizzles down to 'who wins initiative', so to speak. That makes for boring discussions.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: Force Vs. Magic.

    No, it doesn't make it okay. That's why they generally don't try to get into fights one would think. They where only suppose to use their Sabers in defence of themselves or others, and only as a last resort.

    Using the force to enhance yourself is permitable I think, cause your using it to ya know.. not die.
    However using the force directly on a living being as an attack is looked down upon. It's not a corruption of the force, more so its a corruption of yourself.

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: Force Vs. Magic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    Umm not really.

    The point being made is that when Jedi move something with the Force it is implied sometimes (Yoda and the X-Wing would one exampl) they aren't say gathering a bunch of energy and exerting it, but actually willing the object itself to move.

    So a shield is completely meaningless because there's conceptually nothing to be blocked because nothing has to cross it in the first place. A wall means nothing when there are as many invaders inside it as outside it.

    To your example the Jedi would not need to know any combination since they would will the mechanics of the locks to move and open.

    Mind you I don't know that that is how the Force is conceived to work in this context.
    If that's the case, then why did Maul and Obi-Wan stop when the force fields were up? If they weren't blocked by force fields when using the force Maul would have just force choked Obi-Wan to death or threw him into a field or any number of tricks.
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    I don't care what you feel.
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    something something Jayngfet experience.

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: Force Vs. Magic.

    Thats simple. Obi knows the force and knows how to protect himself from force attacks. Read Fragenstein post.

  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: Force Vs. Magic.

    On the subject of Transperancy. If you draw a picture on one sheet of tracing paper, and try to draw the exact same picture on another sheet of paper. If you hold them to the light, they aren't gonna be exact replicas line for line, swirl for swirl.
    The same is for powers on these Vs. thread. You can only make certain things add up. Trying to make them BOTH the exact same, takes the fun out of these fights. Vs. threads are about trying to see who would react best to the unknown.

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: Force Vs. Magic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Except there are a ton of defensive techniques in the Force, so this cannot be true.
    Oh you can defend against such things, its just under what conceptual structure do those defenses function.

    Lets take the Force powers as being orders to reality by Jedi. If Jedi A orders an object to "move", it moves. Now lets add a Jedi B who is simultaneously giving an order "do not move" and you have two conflicting actions. Assuming there's a medium of resolution (skill, willpower, etc) to arbitrate the conflicting orders one would have a defense.

    Again not say this is the case but a bubble style shield being meaningless does not mean defenses cannot exist, they have to operate on a different structure. Not a bubble but say a continuous field that corrects the bubble being hollow.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    I think you're still not getting the whole transparency thing. Saying Force Defenses stop Wizard Attacks and Wizard Defenses stop Force Attacks isn't some sort arbitrary slant to favor wizards, it's a basic tenet of vs. discussions to level the playing field. Otherwise, both sides have a vast assortment of unblockable attacks and the entire discussion fizzles down to 'who wins initiative', so to speak. That makes for boring discussions.
    I hold the opposite opinion, differing systems should interact in the most minimal way possible. Because the metaphysical questions are ones that are not ultimately answerable unless the two settings run a crossover to give some weight and authority to the rules overlap. Otherwise you just have arbitrary opinions on how things work.

    I prefer to minimize to practical ends with as little overlap as possible. One doesn't need Mind Blank to function against the Jedi Mind Trick to make a decision on whether X character can resist the Jedi Mind Trick, when we've statements the willpower will function.

    Regardless though who "wins initiative" is still generally all one needs to make a decision on the proverbial fair fight. Where two combatants start off at a some distance on an open playing field with no more then the most basic of preparations taken. There a Jedi WILL win except under certain conditions.

    I think I can narrow them down to three conditions:

    1) The distance is too great for a Jedi to cover and act before their opponent can act to either beat the Jedi at range, or erect a defense that will stop a lightsaber.

    2) The opponent has some form of defense that can be assumed to be present that will prevent a lightsaber from harming them. Like an always up shield or a the ability to regenerate.

    3) The opponent themselves operate either as fast or faster then the Jedi.

    These conditions apply to any fighter type really. Heck modifications would determine just about any fight. Outrange, outdefend, or outfight.

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: Force Vs. Magic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayngfet View Post
    If that's the case, then why did Maul and Obi-Wan stop when the force fields were up? If they weren't blocked by force fields when using the force Maul would have just force choked Obi-Wan to death or threw him into a field or any number of tricks.
    The Force works through forcefields and even through long distances.

    Vader Force choked someone on another ship that was inside an asteroid field while he was on a ship outside of it, As long as you know where something or someone is with enough detail you can affect them with the force. Though in combat it isn't quite as affective I would assume.

    I'm just now imagining a Deathnote style mystery with a sith killing people via force and television.

  8. - Top - End - #98
    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: Force Vs. Magic.

    And....in this case, who reacts first wins, because there are two sides with unblockable, undodgable, and irresistible death attacks. An interesting versus, that does not make.

    Comparatively, when you see that both sides in a theoretical versus match have Telekinesis, except one is powered by giving sacrifices to Magical Space Wombats who then tug on invisible cosmic strings and the other is powered by ritually painting their toenails purple every full moon to fuel their psychic energy batteries, it's simpler and more logical to say the Magical Space Wombats anti-telekinesis abilities work on both their Telekinesis and the other sides' Telekinesis (and vice versa), than getting bogged down in the minutae of whether psychic energy can stop cosmic strings from vibrating or not.


    I hold the opposite opinion, differing systems should interact in the most minimal way possible. Because the metaphysical questions are ones that are not ultimately answerable unless the two settings run a crossover to give some weight and authority to the rules overlap. Otherwise you just have arbitrary opinions on how things work.
    That's fair, but my overall point is that equalizing like end effects isn't some grand conspiracy to arbitrarily make one 'side' better, it's just a standard convention in Versus matches to make the arguments flow better.
    Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2012-07-15 at 06:11 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: Force Vs. Magic.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    That's fair, but my overall point is that equalizing like end effects isn't some grand conspiracy to arbitrarily make one 'side' better, it's just a standard convention in Versus matches to make the arguments flow better.
    Surely it's also true that sometimes, however, a versus fight really does just boil down to "whoever goes first" and an uninteresting matchup?
    In all the ways to pit, say, Vader against Voldemort, a straight up deathmatch is probably the one I'd find least interesting.

  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: Force Vs. Magic.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    That's fair, but my overall point is that equalizing like end effects isn't some grand conspiracy to arbitrarily make one 'side' better, it's just a standard convention in Versus matches to make the arguments flow better.
    But that's where Force users run into trouble. As perceived by hardest canon, Force users have few powers that affect the universe in more limited ways. It's a subtle power, not a grand wave of obliteration such as most wizards whip out. Even the modest deeply versed Sith lord is hard-pressed to launch much in the way of direct damage.

    When taken on comparable physics, magic wielders nearly always demonstrate a greater variety of powers and a vastly overwhelming use of destruction.

    Now, bringing out samples taken from the EU will give Force users a better standing. They have more destructive abilities and more tools at their disposal. By the same token, selecting a mage from a universe where magic is limited to influencing nature or gently nudging fate then we may see the roles reversed.

    It's not so much that the Force doesn't count when being plied against magic, it's just that magical fantasy works average out to a higher potency.
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  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: Force Vs. Magic.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    And....in this case, who reacts first wins, because there are two sides with unblockable, undodgable, and irresistible death attacks. An interesting versus, that does not make.
    I'd argue that putting aside setting as much as possible that the archetypal wizard will loose to the standard Jedi. Because Jedi are going to be broadly speaking faster to act and bring all that to bear.

    Now high level wizards (of some settings) reverse that trend and magic users still broadly go up higher on the usefully applied power scale then Jedi do, but they aren't in my mind typical.

    Comparatively, when you see that both sides in a theoretical versus match have Telekinesis, except one is powered by giving sacrifices to Magical Space Wombats who then tug on invisible cosmic strings and the other is powered by ritually painting their toenails purple every full moon to fuel their psychic energy batteries, it's simpler and more logical to say the Magical Space Wombats anti-telekinesis abilities work on both their Telekinesis and the other sides' Telekinesis (and vice versa), than getting bogged down in the minutae of whether psychic energy can stop cosmic strings from vibrating or not.
    As far as playing TK tug o' war yes this is true as most TK can only move so much mass and regardless of how one exerts force one an opposite force will balance it out or exceed it. That's exactly the sort of practical end I'm talking about.

    Talking about say a shield or other protection though the manner of TK becomes relevant. Because its not "TK vs TK" anymore its "TK vs Defense" which is a major conceptual difference. The practical endpoint approach is about minimizing interaction to as much as possible, which still demands interaction where nessecary.

    To make a different example should a Jedi be able to use Force powers on a 3.5 Golem?

    My answer would be "Yes" because its meant to be an immunity to magic, which the Force can be separated from. A Jedi couldn't use mental abilities though since a Golem doesn't broadly speaking have a mind to effect, the effect doesn't match up. Force Push though, not a problem.

  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: Force Vs. Magic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    To make a different example should a Jedi be able to use Force powers on a 3.5 Golem?

    My answer would be "Yes" because its meant to be an immunity to magic, which the Force can be separated from. A Jedi couldn't use mental abilities though since a Golem doesn't broadly speaking have a mind to effect, the effect doesn't match up. Force Push though, not a problem.
    To be fair, though, I'd say that's not overly different from a wizard using Orb of [Thing], which I equate to a magically-created, non-magical [Thing]-blaster-bolt. Golem magic immunity doesn't actually protect them from magic, come to that, it protects them from a subset of spells (and powers). They aren't immune to breath weapons (or, say, the Su Desert Wind strikes/boosts) - and most of the rest of the supernatural abilities they are immune to is because of the fact they don't have a metabolism and a mind, not because they are immune to magic (at least half of which probably wouldn't work on droids, either.)

    I suspect shields must have some influence of the Force, as well, because otherwise the Jedi wouldn't have so much trouble with all those shielded Droidekas; if it doesn't, by rights, they ought be able to knobble them much more easily.

  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Default Re: Force Vs. Magic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    I'd argue that putting aside setting as much as possible that the archetypal wizard will loose to the standard Jedi. Because Jedi are going to be broadly speaking faster to act and bring all that to bear.

    Now high level wizards (of some settings) reverse that trend and magic users still broadly go up higher on the usefully applied power scale then Jedi do, but they aren't in my mind typical.



    As far as playing TK tug o' war yes this is true as most TK can only move so much mass and regardless of how one exerts force one an opposite force will balance it out or exceed it. That's exactly the sort of practical end I'm talking about.

    Talking about say a shield or other protection though the manner of TK becomes relevant. Because its not "TK vs TK" anymore its "TK vs Defense" which is a major conceptual difference. The practical endpoint approach is about minimizing interaction to as much as possible, which still demands interaction where nessecary.

    To make a different example should a Jedi be able to use Force powers on a 3.5 Golem?

    My answer would be "Yes" because its meant to be an immunity to magic, which the Force can be separated from. A Jedi couldn't use mental abilities though since a Golem doesn't broadly speaking have a mind to effect, the effect doesn't match up. Force Push though, not a problem.

    The thing is that the force was never really just TK

    In the original trillogy it was described and used as if you are using the force to connect to what it is that you want to affect and that you are using your connection to affect that thing in some way. You're not lifting it with tk so much as making the object lift itself up.

    Manipulating something in the force is exerting your will on it to do something other than what it is doing, via mind manipulation, or other such things.

  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Default Re: Force Vs. Magic.

    BTW I still say that most mages will win in direct confontations but that's because the force's best abilities and most deadly aren't directly tied to damage output in a fight.

  15. - Top - End - #105
    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: Force Vs. Magic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    BTW I still say that most mages will win in direct confontations but that's because the force's best abilities and most deadly aren't directly tied to damage output in a fight.
    Depending on which universe's magic you're using, that's also true about wizards. To use an easy example, damage output in a fight is the weakest thing a D&D wizard can be used for. (though they are still good at it).

  16. - Top - End - #106
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    Default Re: Force Vs. Magic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander View Post
    To be fair, though, I'd say that's not overly different from a wizard using Orb of [Thing], which I equate to a magically-created, non-magical [Thing]-blaster-bolt. Golem magic immunity doesn't actually protect them from magic, come to that, it protects them from a subset of spells (and powers). They aren't immune to breath weapons (or, say, the Su Desert Wind strikes/boosts) - and most of the rest of the supernatural abilities they are immune to is because of the fact they don't have a metabolism and a mind, not because they are immune to magic (at least half of which probably wouldn't work on droids, either.)

    I suspect shields must have some influence of the Force, as well, because otherwise the Jedi wouldn't have so much trouble with all those shielded Droidekas; if it doesn't, by rights, they ought be able to knobble them much more easily.
    Which if meaningful at all merely emphasizes how problematic trying to make systems overlap at more then isn't without problems. To say nothing of the insanity of Immunity to Magic being interpreted as immunity to "Spells that Allow SR" that can only arise from the minutiae of gaming rules not actual story telling. (Also I have a counter RAW argument based on the general Golem description but that need not delay us here)

    As for the Droudekas, I'm rather skeptical there. As Jedi are pretty sparing in use of any Force ability but personal buffs/swordsmanship in general. We'd need an actual attempt and failure, not just a question of "well why didn't they [creative application M]" to say they didn't work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    The thing is that the force was never really just TK

    In the original trillogy it was described and used as if you are using the force to connect to what it is that you want to affect and that you are using your connection to affect that thing in some way. You're not lifting it with tk so much as making the object lift itself up.

    Manipulating something in the force is exerting your will on it to do something other than what it is doing, via mind manipulation, or other such things.
    To levitate something you need to exert force exceeding to the local gravity on an opposing vector. Otherwise it will not work because the gravity will just pull it back. In fact any force exerted on mass will move it, so simply willing an object to move does not preclude other forces acting upon it. So basically TK can always be expressed in terms of applying force, and therefore TK can always in theory neutralize other forms of TK even if they function differently.

    Now Yoda and the X-wing suggest that a sufficiently enlightened Jedi has effectively unlimited strenght TK, but there's plenty of precedent for it having some practical limits in application.

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    BTW I still say that most mages will win in direct confontations but that's because the force's best abilities and most deadly aren't directly tied to damage output in a fight.
    Most mages have their heads or other limbs sliced off by a lightsaber before they finish their spell. It doesn't matter what you can do if you aren't quick enough to do it. Most magic requires actual time to perform.

    Though this is admittedly dependent on ones starting ranges.

  17. - Top - End - #107
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    Default Re: Force Vs. Magic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    Most mages have their heads or other limbs sliced off by a lightsaber before they finish their spell. It doesn't matter what you can do if you aren't quick enough to do it. Most magic requires actual time to perform.

    Though this is admittedly dependent on ones starting ranges.
    Unless the duel starts with the lightsaber activated and against the mage's throat, using it also takes time. And even beheading might not be fatal to particularly powerful mages.
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  18. - Top - End - #108
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    Default Re: Force Vs. Magic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Unless the duel starts with the lightsaber activated and against the mage's throat, using it also takes time. And even beheading might not be fatal to particularly powerful mages.
    Its called Squishy Wizard for a reason last I was aware

    Hitting a button and swinging an arm takes fractions of a second, far less time then invoking any sort of arcane chant or anything needing serious concentration. The vast majority of the time is lost in how much distance a Jedi must cover to close to striking distance. (This is of course even making huge grant that the magic user will begin with an unavoidable and instant win spell, which is quite the leap for 'typical' here)

    And very few settings make beheading merely inconvenient. If you meant to say "liches" or something similar you can have a point, but only a limited number of settings support that sort of muckery and its always going to be a limited number.

    Are there wizards that can beat Jedi?

    Sure thing I can name more then few, most of them though will tend to be main (or at least named) characters of significance in their setting. If someone say Takamachi Nanoha and Luke Skywalker, I bet on the White Devil. If someone just says wizard and Jedi though, then I bet on the Jedi.

    Magic on a broad level is better then the Force, but then again its an entire type against one permutation of said type its to be expected. However the Jedi is a more efficient package versus the wizard.

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