Western Fantasy... from Asia.

[Yora]

It's not exactly new. Final Fantasy and Record of Lodoss War both go back to 1986.
But just recently I noticed how much there is: Full Metal Alchemist, Berserk, Bastard, Claymore, Demon's Souls/Dark Souls, Rune Soldier, Aion, Tower of Druaga, Castlevania, Lineage, and probably lots more I don't remember now or never heard off.

Nothing wrong with that, we do the same thing with their stuff. The strange thing is, I kind of like what they did with it. True, many cliches we think should have died 20 years ago are celebrated to high levels and a lot of it is even painfully blue eyed.
But somehow it seems more carefree and actually even better at capturing the essence of it. I like Dragon Age and The Witcher a lot and think they are great developments into the right direction. But only one right direction, since it seems to be lacking something. Not something essential or important, but these silly Japanese and Korean guys still have it!

What are your feelings?

[tensai_oni]

Slayers were making fun of RPG cliches before many people on this board even started playing RPGs.

And I mean tabletop, not video game cliches. Trigger-happy spellcasters, characters with no care for collateral damage as long as they beat up the bad guys (because they're the heroes!), stacking templates, etc.

Also I think you can't really put laidback and silly anime like Slayers or Rune Soldier Louie in the same category as dark and gritty titles in the vein of Berserk or Claymore. They're all fantasy but that's as far as similarities go.

[Prime32]

Looking at how it's filtered by another culture is a good way to better understand the genre's component parts.

Eg. Slayers captures the essence of D&D very well, so if you're trying to refine D&D then emulating Slayers can help you keep sight of your goals.

[Kasanip]

A post should be made, but don't know to write the answer.　

[Cespenar]

As two people's observations of the same thing will be different, so is the case for different cultures. Pretty obvious, actually.

[Yora]

Yes, but as I watch these things, it appears to me that it's not actually that different.
These anime and video games have a feel that I also associate with the Conan movie and the Dark Sun and Planescape settings. At least in my perception, it's less an alternative interpretation than a preservation of certain aspects that have falled out of fashion in the western entertainment industry. But when I would have to put a finger on it what these aspects would be, all I can tell are actually those that I don't like and think are stupid. But the end result I kind of like even more.

[MLai]

This thread kind of raises the question of... how/when did the Jpnese get into AD&D style gaming and storytelling??

(1) AFAIK, Jpnese ppl don't play pen-paper RPGs like AD&D? Did they? I never got the impression they did. In fact, exactly what did their geeks do before Nintendo was born?

(2) AFAIK, Record of Lodoss War was the first big "AD&D" style anime? Am I right? So, where did they get the idea to do this? Did they play AD&D on paper, or were they introduced via the SSR gold box games???

(3) And I just friggin' know they didn't read Tolkien. There's no way.

[tensai_oni]

Why are you treating Japan as some strange foreign land that never heard of the rest of the world's inventions?
That country certainly has tabletop games and players, and even releases its own titles - it's niche but then, tabletop RPG is niche in every other country as well.
To think that the Japanese never heard of Tolkien is just ignorant. Especially now, that the movies made Lord of the Rings leave the territory of geekdom and enter popular culture.
Some western gaming franchises are as a matter of fact extremely popular in Japan, even more so than in the west. Such as the Ultima and Wizardry series, the latter having more unofficial sequels than official releases.
Record of Lodoss War as a matter of fact was first, or at least the first series that also became so popular - its creator, Ryo Mizuno, took his homebrewed tabletop setting and wrote books about it. And they proved so popular they spawned video games, anime and more. He achieved what every DnD game master secretely wishes for, for his game to become a real franchise. One that started as early as the 80s to that.

[Terraoblivion]

In other words, Record of the Lodoss War is in a very real sense the Japanese Dragonlance. It's almost literally the same story of how it was made, just with a Japanese dude instead of a pair of Americans as the original creator.

I can't help but wonder though...if the Japanese have been so completely separated from western fantasy, why are wood dwelling elves so common in stuff they make?

Also, MLai, I have to ask...what is your grudge against the As in Japanese? You never use them.

[Yora]

Japan is certainly a unique culture, but I'd say their most remarkable trait is that they are, and have been for a very long time, extremely interested in what things can be found anywhere in the world and would be of use to them. Not only in technology and science, but in culture and entertainment as well. If something was moderately popular in China, Korea, America, or Europe, you can be almost sure that some Japanese heard about it and shared it with their country. And sometimes things get popular and the Japanese make their own version of it. Like baseball, electronics, cars, Buddhism, beer, and countless others. And as shown in the first post, there is quite a substential number of western fantasy fiction that is popular enough to make it back to Europe and America.

[Dr.Epic]

Trigun too a little bit.

[Tengu_temp]

Trigun too a little bit.

Not that kind of western.

[Cespenar]

Japan is certainly a unique culture, but I'd say their most remarkable trait is that they are, and have been for a very long time, extremely interested in what things can be found anywhere in the world and would be of use to them. Not only in technology and science, but in culture and entertainment as well. If something was moderately popular in China, Korea, America, or Europe, you can be almost sure that some Japanese heard about it and shared it with their country. And sometimes things get popular and the Japanese make their own version of it. Like baseball, electronics, cars, Buddhism, beer, and countless others. And as shown in the first post, there is quite a substential number of western fantasy fiction that is popular enough to make it back to Europe and America.

It's their way of globalization. Since the Japanese culture is (or was) not very similar to Western culture because of obvious reasons, the cultural osmosis (I like to make up words) between them is not as smooth as the cultural osmosis between, say, the USA and Europe. Thus, they actually have to tailor the stuff they want to import to better fit into their culture and their ways. In recent times, though, it's kind of mixed. They have westernized themselves enough to take a lot of the stuff directly, but the "tailoring" continues in many areas as well.

Of course, all of what I've just written might be total BS as well.

[Terraoblivion]

It's their way of globalization. Since the Japanese culture is (or was) not very similar to Western culture because of obvious reasons, the cultural osmosis (I like to make up words) between them is not as smooth as the cultural osmosis between, say, the USA and Europe. Thus, they actually have to tailor the stuff they want to import to better fit into their culture and their ways.

You mean the way the US remakes European movies that happen to find some success over there? Because that's happened a lot, too. Also, not like there haven't been plenty of Americans making things inspired by European stuff and the opposite, just like there's been plenty of Europeans making stuff inspired by what Americans make.

[Cen]

sooo what has Witcher to do with with Asia? it's 100% polish. Poland is in Europe.

[Cespenar]

You mean the way the US remakes European movies that happen to find some success over there? Because that's happened a lot, too. Also, not like there haven't been plenty of Americans making things inspired by European stuff and the opposite, just like there's been plenty of Europeans making stuff inspired by what Americans make.

I agree, though I didn't say that the osmosis there was seamless, I said it was just smoother in comparison.

[kamikasei]

sooo what has Witcher to do with with Asia? it's 100% polish. Poland is in Europe.

Which is probably why Yora listed it alongside Dragon Age as an example of Western fantasy.

[MLai]

To think that the Japanese never heard of Tolkien is just ignorant. Especially now, that the movies made Lord of the Rings leave the territory of geekdom and enter popular culture.

(1) Most of your post talks about post-Lodoss. I'm asking about pre-Lodoss.
(2) Japan is a foreign land, and aside from having had American occupation, it is pretty insular for a 1st world nation. Not in big things, as they are a part of the global economy. But certainly in "niche" things.
(3) For example, it took longer than my lifetime, for Japan to finally start translating the Chinese equivalent of the Tolkien Middle Earth franchise (the works of Jin Yong/ Louis Cha). And Jin Yong/ Louis Cha's writing is 50x more accessible than Tolkien's, especially to Japan. In the meantime, the rest of Asia has been assimilating Jpnese literature/media since WW2.
(4) #3 therefore colors my impression of how Japan treats foreign media/literature. Which is why I was asking.

If the Japanese have been so completely separated from western fantasy, why are wood dwelling elves so common in stuff they make?

You're not asking me but I don't understand the context of the question can you clarify? AFAIK Japan has forests?

Also, MLai, I have to ask...what is your grudge against the As in Japanese? You never use them.

I find the word too long for something I often type repeated. So, like "ppl", I shorthand it by removing the consonants. I don't type "Jap" because that's derogatory.

[kamikasei]

Japan is a foreign land

So was America, to Tolkien.

The thing is, your questions are ones you could very easily have answered for yourself with a little research - for example, looking up Record of Lodoss War and seeing its Wikipedia entry explain that it was based on a roleplaying game campaign by its creator. When you start out with the strong assumption that, although you don't really know and haven't looked in to it, you're just sure Japan couldn't possibly have had cultural access you don't expect, it comes off as, frankly, racist or at least parochial.

[Tengu_temp]

You're not asking me but I don't understand the context of the question can you clarify? AFAIK Japan has forests?

I know it might be a riddle of the ages, but...

Where do you think Japanese media got the idea of elves from?

I find the word too long for something I often type repeated. So, like "ppl", I shorthand it by removing the consonants. I don't type "Jap" because that's derogatory.

Chat-speak is against the forum rules, you know. And thank Flying Spaghetti Monster for that.

[Terraoblivion]

(1) Most of your post talks about post-Lodoss. I'm asking about pre-Lodoss.
(2) Japan is a foreign land, and aside from having had American occupation, it is pretty insular for a 1st world nation. Not in big things, as they are a part of the global economy. But certainly in "niche" things.
(3) For example, it took longer than my lifetime, for Japan to finally start translating the Chinese equivalent of the Tolkien Middle Earth franchise (the works of Jin Yong/ Louis Cha). And Jin Yong/ Louis Cha's writing is 50x more accessible than Tolkien's, especially to Japan. In the meantime, the rest of Asia has been assimilating Jpnese literature/media since WW2.
(4) #3 therefore colors my impression of how Japan treats foreign media/literature. Which is why I was asking.

Japan is a lot less isolated than you seem to think? Popular western entertainment certainly gets over there and consistently has since the end of the American occupation. Disney is huge in Japan like everywhere else. The Japanese listened to Beatles too. They had their hippies and their greasers. They had a major Star Trek fandom in the late 60s and 70s despite having to resort to bootleg film reels. In fact the second major unified act of the American Star Trek fandom was saving money to pay for a ticket so the guy who started the Japanese one could go to the US for one of the early cons. These are just a few easy examples of the Japanese having access to western culture.

Also, I'd like to point out that Lord of the Rings is not some obscure, niche product, but is the third-best selling novel ever with total sales of 150 million copies with the Hobbit as the fourth-best selling at 100 million. In fact, one of the noteworthy things about its distribution is how unpopular it is in the US. Just have a look at its reception, which incidentally also reveals that it was translated into Japanese around the same time as into continental European languages.

I'd also say you betray a fundamental lack of understanding of the spread of culture across the planet. Supposed cultural and linguistic similarity, not that there is much of either between Hong and Japan, or geographical proximity is hardly the primary factor in this. Instead it is a matter of which places has culture that seems desirable to others as well as the active work in promoting the export of entertainment. As the richest place on the planet the US was quite able to saturate the world with its entertainment, to the point where the desirability of American entertainment over what was approved was a major part in breeding discontent in Eastern Europe during the cold war. Being English speaking as well, the UK has to no small degree been able to ride the coat tails of this. For an example, almost all foreign entertainment movies you'll find in theaters in industrialized countries is American. The same picture applies to tv and it has been the case for decades.

Why would Japan arbitrarily avoid the entertainment of their greatest ally and the culture that set the stage for cutting edge modern culture to focus on entertainment from a place that was still the target of racism in both the west and Japan? It makes little sense unless you believe that people choose entertainment based on ethnic similarity, which raises a whole lot of questions. Like how Japanese video games could dominate the video game market among white Americans for almost a decade and still be going strong or how Bollywood movies ended up popular in East Africa.

Overall, it just seems like you assume you know everything about foreign people because you live in an expat community or something. Everything you've said about Japan shows two things. One is that you don't even have the most rudimentary knowledge of the theoretical underpinnings of cultural studies, cultural history, anthropology and sociology. The other is the history and culture of Japan. Instead you come off as a parochial expat suffering from culture shock and secluding yourself in an expat community, groups that have a long known tendency to be more culturally conservative and closed than the culture back home in an attempt to preserve their identity.

In short, if you don't know any theory of how culture works, don't know anything about the culture you're talking about and aren't willing to put in the two minutes it takes to check something on wikipedia, don't speak about what the Japanese did or did not have with such a great tone of authority. For example, there was a Japanese D&D fandom before the first translation of the system, not just that the first translation happened in 1985, which is to say before Record of the Lodoss War began release in 1986. If someone speaks Japanese, I'm sure they can illuminate us with more details from the Japanese wikipedia page. Incidentally, learning all this? Took me about five minutes including the actual reading and cutting back and forth between it and writing.

You're not asking me but I don't understand the context of the question can you clarify? AFAIK Japan has forests?

Like Tengu said, if they had no contact with western fantasy how would they stumble upon a concept as specific as pale humans with pointy ears who live for a very long time and live in forests? It is rather different than merely going for mysterious beings in the wilderness.

I find the word too long for something I often type repeated. So, like "ppl", I shorthand it by removing the consonants. I don't type "Jap" because that's derogatory.

Two letters that you omit maybe twice a paragraph makes that meaningful a difference to you? Especially at the cost of sounding like you're making fun of the place and its people.

[MLai]

@ Terra:
Actually, minus the empty hostility (inherited I assume from earlier threads) I learned a lot from your long post. Which is basically what I was looking for. You did assume things incorrectly from my avatar quote just so you can try to insult me. But hot air is no big, as long as the rest of the post was informative.

Like Tengu said, if they had no contact with western fantasy how would they stumble upon a concept as specific as pale humans with pointy ears who live for a very long time and live in forests?

The distinction I was asking about in my first post, was whether they learned their high fantasy genre conventions from Tolkien, AD&D, or some other source. You answered that now, so this rhetorical elf question can be dropped I suppose.

@ Tengu:
Oh? OK good warning I'll keep that in mind; wouldn't want to run afoul of another peculiar OOTS forum rule. Not that "Jpnese" is common internet speak.

@ kamikasei:
Racism is the wrong word for what you're trying to accuse me of. Yep, parochial is what you're looking for.

[Kasanip]

I can't answer every question, but I can try. But I don't know what question is asked.

[MLai]

@ Kasanip:
How long have you been living in Japan? Because some topics (not all) I'd like expounded on are before the release of Lodoss War.

(1) How big was Lord of the Rings in Japan, pre Jackson films? This question helps show where Japan got most of its high fantasy conventions, from Tolkien or secondarily through D&D.
Here's what Wiki says, courtesy of Terraoblivion linking:

The Hobbit appeared in a Japanese translation in 1965 (Hobitto no Boken) and The Lord of the Rings from 1972 to 1975 (Yubiwa Monogatari), both translated by Teiji Seta (1916–1979), in 1992 revised by Seta's assistant Akiko Tanaka. In 1982, Tanaka translated the Silmarillion (Sirumariru no Monogatari). Teiji Seta was an expert in classical Japanese literature and a haiku poet, and Arduini (2006) regards the Seta and Tanaka translations as "almost perfect".

Shiro No Norite ("The White Rider") is a Tokyo-based group of fans, established in 1981. But reception of Tolkien's work among the Japanese public remained rather limited until the appearance of Jackson's films, after which there was a surge of interest.

(2) Are pen-paper fantasy RPGs big in Japan? How big is AD&D in Japan, or is it limited (like say, X-box) and Japan has its own big local titles?
Through another link courtesy of Terraoblivion, I found an interesting question asked:

Any idea if Oriental Adventures was published and/or popular? One of the things I disliked about that system were its "honor points," and how it tried to smoosh the Western chivalric code onto the samurai class (although most of what I knew about it at the time came from Kurosawa movies).

This comment/question raises the interesting question of "What do Jpnese gamers do with the parts of AD&D which deal clumsily with Eastern/Jpnese culture?"

(3) How about Warhammer? Or does Japan mostly play its own tabletop wargames?

[Kasanip]

@ Kasanip:
How long have you been living in Japan? Because some topics (not all) I'd like expounded on are before the release of Lodoss War.

I am 20 years old. Probably I can't answer question about 1980 or 1970 and such. Sorry.

(1) How big was Lord of the Rings in Japan, pre Jackson films? This question helps show where Japan got most of its high fantasy conventions, from Tolkien or secondarily through D&D.

Sorry, I don't know. I haven't read this book. But of course it is known. I remember the movies was known when I was elementary and junior high school student. But Harry Potter became more popular. Of people today, it is through comic and novel and games to learn about fantasy. Of D&D history, it can be read on Wikipedia.

(2) Are pen-paper fantasy RPGs big in Japan? How big is AD&D in Japan, or is it limited (like say, X-box) and Japan has its own big local titles?

To say TRPG games, it isn't very popular. But it can be found with support in university and cities like Tokyo, Nagoya and Fukuoka. Recently to become more popular because internet culture and novel culture to become closer.

Of Dungeons&Dragons, I only know a little 3.5版. It can be organized at shop to make a play, or a group can be made. Some groups still play on internet and make groups.
It is much more popular the domestic recently. Most popular is ソード・ワールド Sword World. Now it is SW2.0. アリアンロッド Arianrhod is also to become popular and many other.

Sometimes adventures are written and become novels called [Replay]. Sometimes are very popular even people who don't like TRPG game. Because popular novel or game can become comic or cartoon, sometimes TRPG becomes comic and cartoon, like Lodoss or Night Wizard.

Through another link courtesy of Terraoblivion, I found an interesting question asked:

Any idea if Oriental Adventures was published and/or popular? One of the things I disliked about that system were its "honor points," and how it tried to smoosh the Western chivalric code onto the samurai class (although most of what I knew about it at the time came from Kurosawa movies).

This comment/question raises the interesting question of "What do Jpnese gamers do with the parts of AD&D which deal clumsily with Eastern/Jpnese culture?"

About オリエンタルアドベンチャーOriental Adventure is English only. But, I don't know about D&D4版.

Maybe embarrassing to say clearly. It is laughed. Sometime to look like bad romantic or comedy story.
But, probably reaction isn't different in reversed position. To look at this OotS forum, it can be seen joke to be made fun of Japanese mistakes too. I think it is understood because cultures are different. Of course there are mistakes.

It is excited feeling sometimes. On internet, there is always some interest to try 和風D&D. But most it is just to use [rules] and ignore [unnecessary information]. Now there are many domestic TRPG to do such a style, so only D&D fan would try such a game rule I think.

(3) How about Warhammer? Or does Japan mostly play its own tabletop wargames?

I have never played this game. But it can be found easily in shops and often in 卓上ゲーム forum. Of course history of TRPG and such is to come from [board games], so there are fans of such a game too. There are popular domestic card games I think.

[Kato]

Also, I'd like to point out that Lord of the Rings is not some obscure, niche product, but is the third-best selling novel ever with total sales of 150 million copies with the Hobbit as the fourth-best selling at 100 million.

Some things about that list destroyed my faith in humanity... but that's off-topic.


You know, I never realized how much Western fantasy there actually IS in Japan. I mean, yeah, many animes and other things still stick out as Japanese inspired but from playing FF I'd never thought it was a Japanese game if I wasn't aware of it. Same goes for the DQ/DW series. Though I guess the latter is a bit more Eastern-ish if you look at a few of the monsters.

tbh, I guess it really is hard to make out most P&P progression before the rise of the internet. It was - and mostly is - a very niche community and though sales and numbers of players have grown I'd say even if I were to try to find out how popular any kind of D&D was in Germany let's say... pre 1990's I'd have a hard time to find any indication of it. I'd be surprised if Japan was much different, though maybe a bit earlier.

It's still interesting how pretty much all popular fantasy settings can be traced back to Tolkien, basically, and how there seems to be so little diversity at least in the more popular franchises... Then again if a dwarf was tall and handsome and beardless he ould be no dwarf. And being tall is not that handy in caves anyway. But why are there no small elves? Er, drifting off.


To put another question... what media based on Eastern culture - or rather Eastern mythology - without any fancy additions like Dragonball or such are there?

[snoopy13a]

Also, I'd like to point out that Lord of the Rings is not some obscure, niche product, but is the third-best selling novel ever with total sales of 150 million copies with the Hobbit as the fourth-best selling at 100 million. In fact, one of the noteworthy things about its distribution is how unpopular it is in the US. Just have a look at its reception, which incidentally also reveals that it was translated into Japanese around the same time as into continental European languages.

That doesn't necessarily mean The Lord of the Rings wasn't an obscure, niche product in Japan until the movies were released. For example, I am absolutely ignorant about Japanese literature. I'm sure that the high caliber Japanese literature has been translated into English and that, if I wanted to, I could read the translation. Still, the most popular Japanese literature is likely, at best, an obscure, niche product in the United States. So, it wouldn't be too ridiculous that the most popular British novel of the last one hundred years could be obscure in Japan.

Of course, I am an American and we're a little parochial . Obviously, Britain influences our culture greatly, but when it comes to the literary canon, we only generally only accept the "best of the best" from non-English speaking countries--and in that, only translations because we usually don't bother learn other languages (again the parochialism ).

It is also interesting that America usually adopts other cultures' influences indirectly (the two main exceptions are Britian and, to lesser extent for geeky-pop culture, Japan). For example, many of our recent horror movies are remakes of Japanese horror films. Still, we don't play the Japanese film and add subtitles or dubbing. Instead, we take the foreign film as inspiration and re-make it so it fits within our culture. We've been doing this for years, as can be seen from The Magnficient Seven and Star Wars. Same with our passion for reality TV--which were orignally popular in Scandinavia. We didn't watch the European reality TV; we just copied their format.

As for Western Fantasy from Asia, I think the generic Western "story-book" Middle Ages setting (knights, princesses, etc.) can be somewhat fascinating to an non-Westerner so it can serve as an exotic fanasty template.

[Fri]

To put another question... what media based on Eastern culture - or rather Eastern mythology - without any fancy additions like Dragonball or such are there?

So many that I can't even start to describe, that you might need to specifiy this better, Kato. Do you know how many straight journey to the west adaptation are there? And ramayana or mahabharata adaptation in indian film or serial? It's like asking 'how many straight-out cowboy movies are out there.'

I personally watched at least three different hongkong/chinese journey to the west live action serial as a kid. Man, that brings back memories.

[RPGuru1331]

To put another question... what media based on Eastern culture - or rather Eastern mythology - without any fancy additions like Dragonball or such are there?

There are at least 25 video games based on the Romance of the Three Kingdoms from one single company; there are at least 6 movies/mini-series and two video games of the Battle of Chibi alone. The Romance, although dolled up to look like history, diverges sufficiently from reality to be fairly called a myth. You're asking about how much media has been produced by numerous countries of many, many cultures that could be said to be based on their own mythology... the answer can only be said to be 'a lot'. It's certainly true that western cultures, particularly those the US considers important, have more truck in the west than vice versa, for at least 3 major reasons I can think of, but seriously now...

[MLai]

Same with our passion for reality TV--which were orignally popular in Scandinavia. We didn't watch the European reality TV; we just copied their format.

HUH. I guess I learn something new again in this thread. I always thought reality TV came out of Japan LOL. I remember years before Survivor appeared in the US, I was surfing thru some Jpnese reality TV shows on Satellite and thinking what weird offbeat tastes they had in television.

As for Western Fantasy from Asia, I think the generic Western "story-book" Middle Ages setting (knights, princesses, etc.) can be somewhat fascinating to an non-Westerner so it can serve as an exotic fanasty template.

Tolkien may have been obscure in Asia, but literature like Greek mythology, Norse mythology, and King Arthur were anything but obscure.
And ofc, if USA makes a movie about something, it makes inroads for related products to follow. For example, Conan movie followed by He-man toys. No, I can't prove that correlation.

Do you know how many straight journey to the west adaptation are there? And ramayana or mahabharata adaptation in indian film or serial?

I wonder how widespread Journey To The West was, in Japan.
*Looks at Dragonball.* Wait, lol no I didn't ask that.

Anyways, I believe what is being said is that yes, there are tons of straight mythology adaptations in Jpnese media and other Eastern countries. Westerners just don't ever see any/much of it because it's not what's being brought over. It's stuff that's palatable/accessible for Westerners that is brought over. Add to that, straight myth adaptations are often catered to young children so it's filtered out even more from the Western market.