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  1. - Top - End - #271
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Paladin and rogue in the same group - what's allowed and what's not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morithias View Post
    Yet you claim that killing the lady running the bakery just because she happens to have bat wings instead of feathered wings is a GOOD act?

    It's racism nothing more, nothing less.
    It was an Orphanage <.<

    but yes, The only time as a DM or Paladin, i would say it is fair to murder without thought a Fiend, is if there is no double standard.

    Let me explain why: The Paladin in this case has the god of Status Quo, whose Tenants thus define that only those native to a plane are allowed to influence it, or else suffering and misery will spread. Thus, as a Paladin, you are morally obligated to prevent outsiders from spreading any doctrine, because their doctrine itself is liable to cause problems.

    The reason this is so, is because the Objective forces of [Good], [Evil], [Law], and [Chaos] are not the subjective Alignments. the Objective forces of Good, Evil, and Law all want to Tyrannically take hold over the material planes, while Chaos wants to break down the order of the material plane, which would destroy everything.

    Outsiders in PF are alot better defined because they are that, outsiders. Beings who can not comprehend a mortal perspective because they are neither mortal nor flawed. DnD outsiders are more interesting because they are mortal, and they are flawed.

    The Subjective Alignments, which is what players are held to, are based upon the effects a person's actions have on a community. A paladin murdering a Tyrant who enslaves his people and works them to death is definitely doing a good deed. A paladin who kills Eludicia (Paladin) is doing significant evil.
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  2. - Top - End - #272
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    Default Re: Paladin and rogue in the same group - what's allowed and what's not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Your position is that killing a sapient and good entity, because it has the Evil subtype and "radiates evil energy," is a morally correct action, correct?

    Sorry. I can't say the words you want me to. The only sense in which your position is viable, is that one supplement says, in the baldest terms and without recognizing that "evil subtype" and "evil alignment" don't necessarily go together, that "letting a fiend live is an evil act."
    No, that is not my position. My position is that killing a creature such as you described is a good act. At this point, I've even admitted that it can also be an evil act at the same time. Morally correct and good don't always coincide. They do in most cases. The same is true of evil and morally incorrect, as described in the example of an evil angel given above.

    Once again, the rules construct and the moral construct are two intertwined, but none the less, seperate things.

    There are cultures and religions in which actions that I, personally, would consider morally reprehensible are not only acceptable, but often required by law or doctrine. This is something seperate from D&D's objective alignment system, which may or may not agree in any or all of those cases. I'm sorry if this is too vague, but I can't really get more specific without violating forum rules.
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    Kelb, recently it looks like you're the Avatar of Reason in these forums, man.
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  3. - Top - End - #273
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    Default Re: Paladin and rogue in the same group - what's allowed and what's not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Your position is that killing a sapient and good entity, because it has the Evil subtype and "radiates evil energy," is a morally correct action, correct?

    Sorry. I can't say the words you want me to. The only sense in which your position is viable, is that one supplement says, in the baldest terms and without recognizing that "evil subtype" and "evil alignment" don't necessarily go together, that "letting a fiend live is an evil act."
    Even using the planar setup i extrapolated, i have to agree that [Evil] and Evil are different, because [Evil] just designates a being (within my rearangement) born to a plane with heavy alignment to the plane of negative energy, and one thing is for certain, Wights dont radiate negative energy.
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  4. - Top - End - #274
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    Default Re: Paladin and rogue in the same group - what's allowed and what's not?

    As far as I can tell, the [evil] subtype doesn't matter that much. An Evil celestial, an Evil native outsider (like an aasimar or tiefling) and an Evil Fiend, will all radiate the same, extremely strong, evil aura, if they are of comparable hit dice.

    Similarly, Evil subtype planar dragons (like the Styx dragon or Tarterian dragon from Draconomicon) will radiate same strength aura as Evil chromatic or even metallic ones of the same hit dice. And it will be weaker than the Outsider auras.

    On "killing a creature of consummate, irredeemable evil, for profit" BoVD does say that it's neither a Good act nor an Evil one.

    Given that chromatic dragons don't actually fit the "consummate, irredeemable evil" definition- maybe this only applies to Evil-aligned fiends and the like.

    Thus, we can refute "killing a fiend is always a Good act".

    Which helps resolve a few problems- like devils and demons committing Good acts by slaying each other in the Blood War. Or Paladins of Tyranny/Slaughter being unable to participate in the war for the same reason- because by committing the "Good" act of slaying enemy fiends, they "Fall".

    For those who object to the notion that "Evil outsider" means any Outsider with an evil alignment, for the purpose of its long-term presence causing a "lingering evil" effect- maybe make it "Evil outsider with the Evil subtype".

    Thus, evil celestials, tieflings, redeemed fiends, and so on, can't cause the "lingering evil" effect.

    But evil fiends, can.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2012-08-03 at 06:01 AM.
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  5. - Top - End - #275
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    Default Re: Paladin and rogue in the same group - what's allowed and what's not?

    So I've been playing a LE rogue in a party with a LG paladin. I've been trying to corrupt the paladin, mostly by acting pragmatically. Today was simultaneously awesome and horrible. We had just killed some Drow and were left with a single Drow priestess stuck in a (homebrewed) web that was doing 1 point of damage a round. I and the LN monk were trying to convince the priestess to join our side (I wanted to start up a spy ring, the monk wanted to convert her to his god). She had already decided to surrender and, in full view of the paladin, renounced her allegiance to Lolth. The paladin decided that because she was evil, she was probably lying and said that if we let her go, he would hire an assassin to kill her. The DM and I both told him that that wouldn't be the Lawful or Good thing to do, and he should instead be attempting to help her conversion to the side of good. I even told him about Eludecia (whose name I thought was Fall-From-Grace at the time), and his response was that any good cleric or paladin would immediately banish her. So in response, the GM dropped his alignment to LE. The paladin player decided to throw a temper tantrum and leave the game which ends the campaign for a myriad of reasons.

    So to recap: Drow that had surrendered, and renounced Lolth, was stuck in a web that was slowly killing her.
    Paladin wishes to kill the Drow, and is even willing to use evil ways to do so.
    DM changes Paladin's alignment to Evil.
    Paladin leaves game and campaign ends.
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  6. - Top - End - #276
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    Default Re: Paladin and rogue in the same group - what's allowed and what's not?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Random NPC View Post
    So I've been playing a LE rogue in a party with a LG paladin. I've been trying to corrupt the paladin, mostly by acting pragmatically. Today was simultaneously awesome and horrible. We had just killed some Drow and were left with a single Drow priestess stuck in a (homebrewed) web that was doing 1 point of damage a round. I and the LN monk were trying to convince the priestess to join our side (I wanted to start up a spy ring, the monk wanted to convert her to his god). She had already decided to surrender and, in full view of the paladin, renounced her allegiance to Lolth. The paladin decided that because she was evil, she was probably lying and said that if we let her go, he would hire an assassin to kill her. The DM and I both told him that that wouldn't be the Lawful or Good thing to do, and he should instead be attempting to help her conversion to the side of good. I even told him about Eludecia (whose name I thought was Fall-From-Grace at the time), and his response was that any good cleric or paladin would immediately banish her. So in response, the GM dropped his alignment to LE. The paladin player decided to throw a temper tantrum and leave the game which ends the campaign for a myriad of reasons.

    So to recap: Drow that had surrendered, and renounced Lolth, was stuck in a web that was slowly killing her.
    Paladin wishes to kill the Drow, and is even willing to use evil ways to do so.
    DM changes Paladin's alignment to Evil.
    Paladin leaves game and campaign ends.
    Sorry to hear it. You and your DM had the right of it though. I don't know that shifting him all the way to evil was appropriate, but a fall would definitely have been in order had he acted on those thoughts.
    Last edited by Kelb_Panthera; 2012-08-10 at 11:38 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Kelb, recently it looks like you're the Avatar of Reason in these forums, man.
    Quote Originally Posted by LTwerewolf View Post
    [...] bringing Kelb in on your side in a rules fight is like bringing Mike Tyson in on your side to fight a toddler. You can, but it's such massive overkill.
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  7. - Top - End - #277
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    Default Re: Paladin and rogue in the same group - what's allowed and what's not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Sorry to hear it. You and your DM had the right of it though. I don't know that shifting him all the way to evil was appropriate, but a fall would definitely have been in order had he acted on those thoughts.
    We were eventually able to convince him to come back, but we had to "concede" that the Drow would be our prisoner and turned over to the church after we got out of the Underdark. It wasn't like most of us were going to let her run around unsupervised anyways.
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  8. - Top - End - #278
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    Default Re: Paladin and rogue in the same group - what's allowed and what's not?

    And I'm guessing he got his "Lawful Good" label and paladinhood back, too. *sigh*

  9. - Top - End - #279
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    Default Re: Paladin and rogue in the same group - what's allowed and what's not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    And I'm guessing he got his "Lawful Good" label and paladinhood back, too. *sigh*
    Like I said, I don't think an alignment change was entirely justified in that story, and the actions taken when he returned are not only non-evil, but entirely prudent. It's what he should've done in the first place, and the previous conversation was probably retconned to have never happened.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Kelb, recently it looks like you're the Avatar of Reason in these forums, man.
    Quote Originally Posted by LTwerewolf View Post
    [...] bringing Kelb in on your side in a rules fight is like bringing Mike Tyson in on your side to fight a toddler. You can, but it's such massive overkill.
    A quick outline on building a homebrew campaign

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  10. - Top - End - #280
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    The Random NPC's Avatar

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    Default Re: Paladin and rogue in the same group - what's allowed and what's not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Like I said, I don't think an alignment change was entirely justified in that story, and the actions taken when he returned are not only non-evil, but entirely prudent. It's what he should've done in the first place, and the previous conversation was probably retconned to have never happened.
    This pretty much, however, I'll be dropping the Drow off at Fharlanghn's church rather than the paladin's. It's not my fault he didn't specify the church and this world has more than one god.
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  11. - Top - End - #281
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    Default Re: Paladin and rogue in the same group - what's allowed and what's not?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Random NPC View Post
    This pretty much, however, I'll be dropping the Drow off at Fharlanghn's church rather than the paladin's. It's not my fault he didn't specify the church and this world has more than one god.
    Hah! ........ and that's right in line with the behavior of a typical rogue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Kelb, recently it looks like you're the Avatar of Reason in these forums, man.
    Quote Originally Posted by LTwerewolf View Post
    [...] bringing Kelb in on your side in a rules fight is like bringing Mike Tyson in on your side to fight a toddler. You can, but it's such massive overkill.
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  12. - Top - End - #282
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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: Paladin and rogue in the same group - what's allowed and what's not?

    Last session my paladin and rogue foot into a long heated argument about whether the paladin could attack the rogue for stealing party members' things. And if the paladin would fall if he did. Our rogue has a long history of trying to steal other player's things, to the point of leading to long yelling matches.

    Last session is particularly memorable because the rouge tried to steal a new player's ancestral axe and was caught by the paladin. Tempers that were built over a number of sessions finally exploded between the paladin and rogue. Leading into the case above, can the paladin fall if he attacks the kleptomaniac rogue?

    How did I resolve this? Not well I'm afraid. I just threw a random encounter at the group while the paladin and rogue were yelling and ruled that the rogue dropped the axe in surprise.


    Wow... It felt really good to get that off my chest.

  13. - Top - End - #283
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    Default Re: Paladin and rogue in the same group - what's allowed and what's not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arranis Thelmos View Post
    Last session my paladin and rogue foot into a long heated argument about whether the paladin could attack the rogue for stealing party members' things. And if the paladin would fall if he did. Our rogue has a long history of trying to steal other player's things, to the point of leading to long yelling matches.

    Last session is particularly memorable because the rouge tried to steal a new player's ancestral axe and was caught by the paladin. Tempers that were built over a number of sessions finally exploded between the paladin and rogue. Leading into the case above, can the paladin fall if he attacks the kleptomaniac rogue?

    How did I resolve this? Not well I'm afraid. I just threw a random encounter at the group while the paladin and rogue were yelling and ruled that the rogue dropped the axe in surprise.


    Wow... It felt really good to get that off my chest.
    Going straight to lethal damage might be a bit much, but the paladin has every right to stop a crime from happening. The rogue should be punished for stealing if he gets caught, and stealing a unique item like that is just asking to get caught. Now OCC, the rogue should probably be reprimanded, because stealing from party members mostly just causes problems, but if the party is ok with that then keep the reactions in game.
    Last edited by The Random NPC; 2012-08-11 at 10:56 PM.
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  14. - Top - End - #284
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    Default Re: Paladin and rogue in the same group - what's allowed and what's not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arranis Thelmos View Post
    Last session my paladin and rogue foot into a long heated argument about whether the paladin could attack the rogue for stealing party members' things. And if the paladin would fall if he did. Our rogue has a long history of trying to steal other player's things, to the point of leading to long yelling matches.

    Last session is particularly memorable because the rouge tried to steal a new player's ancestral axe and was caught by the paladin. Tempers that were built over a number of sessions finally exploded between the paladin and rogue. Leading into the case above, can the paladin fall if he attacks the kleptomaniac rogue?

    How did I resolve this? Not well I'm afraid. I just threw a random encounter at the group while the paladin and rogue were yelling and ruled that the rogue dropped the axe in surprise.


    Wow... It felt really good to get that off my chest.
    Judging by your phrasing, I assume that you're the DM.

    Don't fall the paladin just for attacking the rogue. The rogue is acting in a chaotic and infuriating manner. If he -kills- the rogue however, that'll lead into a kind of gray area. Does he consider the rogue an ally? Would killing the rogue be a betrayal, or would it be justice for the rogue's betrayal? Is the rogue evil? Why hasn't the entire party ejected the rogue for being a D-bag?

    Okay, the last one is more a question of logic than alignment, but it's still a really good question, and it stems from a bigger question. Why does the group allow the rogue's player to get away with that crap?

    Unfortunately, you're the one that has to make the call in that eventuallity, but if you do decide to fall the pally, at least make getting an atonement easy.
    Last edited by Kelb_Panthera; 2012-08-11 at 11:13 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Kelb, recently it looks like you're the Avatar of Reason in these forums, man.
    Quote Originally Posted by LTwerewolf View Post
    [...] bringing Kelb in on your side in a rules fight is like bringing Mike Tyson in on your side to fight a toddler. You can, but it's such massive overkill.
    A quick outline on building a homebrew campaign

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  15. - Top - End - #285
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Paladin and rogue in the same group - what's allowed and what's not?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Random NPC View Post
    Going straight to lethal damage might be a bit much, but the paladin has every right to stop a crime from happening. The rogue should be punished for stealing if he gets caught, and stealing a unique item like that is just asking to get caught. Now OCC, the rogue should probably be reprimanded, because stealing from party members mostly just causes problems, but if the party is ok with that then keep the reactions in game.
    Stealing from party members is something that should generally be frowned upon, as it's an OOC issue as much or more than an IC issue.

    The social contract of the game usually implies that the party will remain "the party" throughout the course of play, and won't kick members out or kill them. This is *precisely* what people that steal from their party rely upon, knowing that the most likely consequences of failure (being killed by the murder-hobos you travel with, or at least being unceremoniously kicked out) are unlikely to happen due to the social contract.

    That said, the Paladin is certainly entitled to use of force to prevent the thief from infringing upon the rights of other characters.

  16. - Top - End - #286
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    Default Re: Paladin and rogue in the same group - what's allowed and what's not?

    So, I came back from holiday to find 10 pages and 284 replies in my thread. When I left it there were 6 replies or something like that lol. Still, interesting discussion developed...
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    The Leshy or Lesovik is a male woodland spirit in Slavic mythology who protects wild animals and forests. A leshy usually appears as a tall man, but he is able to change his size from that of a blade of grass to a very tall tree. A leshy has a close bond with the gray wolf, and is often seen in the company of bears as well. He is the Forest Lord and carries a club to express that he is the master of the wood. He is said to have the ability to shapeshift into any form, animal or plant.

  17. - Top - End - #287
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    Default Re: Paladin and rogue in the same group - what's allowed and what's not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Leshy View Post
    So, I came back from holiday to find 10 pages and 284 replies in my thread. When I left it there were 6 replies or something like that lol. Still, interesting discussion developed...
    you gave us nothing to work with, so we started having to debate everything regarding alignment
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