Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXV

[Venger]

Rules question, a loose reading of the Spontaneous cure/inflict ability:

could be applied to other spellcasting than Death Delver?

good catch!

wonder what the ruling's gonna be

[Amphetryon]

Rules question, a loose reading of the Spontaneous cure/inflict ability:

could be applied to other spellcasting than Death Delver?

Due to poor wording, I'd say it works. It may be considered less than Elegant by a strict judge, though.

[gbprime]

It's an interesting ability to be sure. Spontaneous casting of any cure spell of that level or lower... but they have no Cure spells on their spell list. So does that mean they can spontaneously cast cure spells from other classes' lists?

Oh, and I'm in as a judge this time around. I snuck out of last round with an award, I should be a good netizen and judge this time. Criteria to be copied in shortly...

[Tim Proctor]

From HoH:

Spontaneous Casting: By 2nd level, your familiarity with the ebb and flow of death has blossomed to the point that, like a cleric, you can lose any prepared spell in order to cast any cure spell of the same level or lower. An evil death delver can only spontaneously convert prepared spells into inflict spells of equal level or lower. Neutral death delvers must choose whether they will cast spontaneous cure or inflict spells and can never change their selection once the choice has been made.

From SRD:

A good cleric (or a neutral cleric of a good deity) can channel stored spell energy into healing spells that the cleric did not prepare ahead of time. The cleric can "lose" any prepared spell that is not a domain spell in order to cast any cure spell of the same spell level or lower (a cure spell is any spell with "cure" in its name).

An evil cleric (or a neutral cleric of an evil deity), can’t convert prepared spells to cure spells but can convert them to inflict spells (an inflict spell is one with "inflict" in its name).

A cleric who is neither good nor evil and whose deity is neither good nor evil can convert spells to either cure spells or inflict spells (player’s choice). Once the player makes this choice, it cannot be reversed.

I take this to mean that you can lose ANY prepared spell to spontaneously cast one that has 'cure' in the name, or 'inflict' of equal or lesser level. If only that would make them Arcane spells so you could go Ultimate Magus, instead of just granting access to Mystic Theurge.

[T.G. Oskar]

I take this to mean that you can lose ANY prepared spell to cast a spell that has 'cure' in the name, or 'inflict' of equal or lesser level. If only that would make them Arcane spells so you could go Ultimate Magus, instead of just granting access to Mystic Theurge.

Correction underlined.

The Spontaneous Casting ability directly references that of a Cleric, which can turn any spell it has prepared for the day into the equivalent Cure X Wounds spell of that level. Thus, if you sacrifice a 1st level spell, you can cast Cure Light Wounds (if manipulating positive energy) or Inflict Light Wounds (if manipulating negative energy). The only caveat is that you can use this ability regardless of what type of energy you manipulate, whether positive or negative.

[Tim Proctor]

Correction underlined.

The Spontaneous Casting ability directly references that of a Cleric, which can turn any spell it has prepared for the day into the equivalent Cure X Wounds spell of that level. Thus, if you sacrifice a 1st level spell, you can cast Cure Light Wounds (if manipulating positive energy) or Inflict Light Wounds (if manipulating negative energy). The only caveat is that you can use this ability regardless of what type of energy you manipulate, whether positive or negative.

Yeah, that was a typo.

My rules lawyer friend brings up a point regarding the SRD and their definition of Cure spells. Leomund's Secure Shelter, Obscure Object, and Secure Corpse technically have "Cure" in the name. I don't buy that aspect of it, if that is what people are going for.

[Madara]

My rules lawyer friend brings up a point regarding the SRD and their definition of Cure spells. Leomund's Secure Shelter, Obscure Object, and Secure Corpse technically have "Cure" in the name. I don't buy that aspect of it, if that is what people are going for.

I have never actually heard that brought up before. Interesting....

Thanks for the knowledge

[dantiesilva]

In the challenge i first appeared in the drow judicator everyone was deducted points for not having pounce...Even if the build did not need it or work on that line. Even my build was not exempt from this and it was a charger build. But i will change that if wanted.

[Amphetryon]

In the challenge i first appeared in the drow judicator everyone was deducted points for not having pounce...Even if the build did not need it or work on that line. Even my build was not exempt from this and it was a charger build. But i will change that if wanted.

This appears to be answering a separate issue than the one regarding why Originality AND Elegance would receive a penalty based on other contestants having a similar concept.

[Tim Proctor]

This appears to be answering a separate issue than the one regarding why Originality AND Elegance would receive a penalty based on other contestants having a similar concept.

I believe he's saying that everyone who didn't get pounce was deducted points, and he believes that was because it was used multiple times.

However, that shouldn't be an elegance thing, that is originality/power aspect.

[Menteith]

I believe he's saying that everyone who didn't get pounce was deducted points, and he believes that was because it was used multiple times.

However, that shouldn't be an elegance thing, that is originality/power aspect.

Agreed - unless Pounce is a core part of a build (like, multiple attacks per round set up specific class features, class features only work on a charge, etc), it's probably just a straight power boost. I didn't submit an entry in that competition due to real life issues, so I don't know what specifically is being referred to.

[Kuulvheysoon]

In the challenge i first appeared in the drow judicator everyone was deducted points for not having pounce...Even if the build did not need it or work on that line. Even my build was not exempt from this and it was a charger build. But i will change that if wanted.

I just double checked, and only 1 judge (Xodion) deducted points for a build lacking Pounce.

[Thurbane]

At the end of the day, the only real constant is that judges will judge each criteria by their own definition and standards. IMHO, it's best not to try and "play the judges", and instead just go with your gut on what is an Original, Elegant, Powerful build that uses the Special Ingredient well.

[OMG PONIES]

Rules question, a loose reading of the Spontaneous cure/inflict ability:
could be applied to other spellcasting than Death Delver?

Due to poor wording, I'd say it works. It may be considered less than Elegant by a strict judge, though.

It probably bears mention that, since it specifies prepared spells, you couldn't use it to switch up spells from a spontaneous casting class.

At the end of the day, the only real constant is that judges will judge each criteria by their own definition and standards. IMHO, it's best not to try and "play the judges", and instead just go with your gut on what is an Original, Elegant, Powerful build that uses the Special Ingredient well.

Indeed, but I also feel it helps to avoid disputes on the back end if we have up-front clarity about the judge's criteria.

[Sewercop]

Yeah, that was a typo.

My rules lawyer friend brings up a point regarding the SRD and their definition of Cure spells. Leomund's Secure Shelter, Obscure Object, and Secure Corpse technically have "Cure" in the name. I don't buy that aspect of it, if that is what people are going for.

hahaha.. That was the first thing that i was thinking about as well

[Kazyan]

Aha! It's...underwhelming, but whatever. An idea appears!

[Kuulvheysoon]

I've got a pair of ideas bouncing about. One's got better fluff, but the other's a more cohesive build.

To be perfectly honest, I simply read through the judge's criteria once, then ignore it. I make sure to include everything I want to include, and that's it, really.

[Madara]

Its difficult to blend with this PrC. Many of the abilities are unique and don't have obvious synergy with anything. Most of all, I'm having difficulty making a build that wouldn't be better off with a different PrC.

[Menteith]

Its difficult to blend with this PrC. Many of the abilities are unique and don't have obvious synergy with anything. Most of all, I'm having difficulty making a build that wouldn't be better off with a different PrC.

I'm having problems coming up with something that couldn't be replicated with a few base classes .

[Madara]

I'm having problems coming up with something that couldn't be replicated with a few base classes .

I know. While the class is easy to enter, only the capstone is really unique.

[Xodion]

I just double checked, and only 1 judge (Xodion) deducted points for a build lacking Pounce.

I think the way I did it was deduct the points for not having it, and award some back based on how much they could cope without it, so more melee focused builds without any other options lost more. It was also indeed in the Power category and not Originality or Elegance, so I'm not sure why it is relevant here.

[Garwain]

Death Delver... 9 dead class levels and 1 that kicks it back alive.

[Thurbane]

It's a bit like the Monk of PrCs - it gets quite a few random abilities and small bonuses over the ten levels, but most don't really interconnect or do that much...

[rot42]

Death Delver... 9 dead class levels and 1 that kicks it back alive.

Immunity to fear is not bad. If your build gets it three times you unlock a special dragon-slaying legacy item, right?

... ... No? Oh well, back to trying to find synergy without too much overlap, then.

[Tim Proctor]

Wait, what? The uber item doesn't exist? I went Fear Immunity giving class/ Death Delver/ Fear Immunity giving class, I guess I have to put that homemade artifact that I was using to complete my build back before I submit.

[mattie_p]

Wait, what? The uber item doesn't exist? I went XXXX/ XXXXX/ XXXXX, I guess I have to put that homemade artifact that I was using to complete my build back before I submit.

I know this was a joke comment, but please refrain from speculating on potential builds. Thank you

[Piggy Knowles]

Well I'll be darned... I think I actually just found a pretty cool trick to use with this class! It's not the most earth-shattering thing in existence, but it's pretty solid and explicitly takes advantage of Death Delver's class features. Curious is anyone else will have grabbed it!

Now, the real question is how to best use it. I've got two potential builds in mind, both with their own strengths and weaknesses, and both going in very different directions - but they also would both benefit from this trick. Hmm....

[Madara]

Well I'll be darned... I think I actually just found a pretty cool trick to use with this class! It's not the most earth-shattering thing in existence, but it's pretty solid and explicitly takes advantage of Death Delver's class features. Curious is anyone else will have grabbed it!

Now, the real question is how to best use it. I've got two potential builds in mind, both with their own strengths and weaknesses, and both going in very different directions - but they also would both benefit from this trick. Hmm....

So did I! I hope it isn't the same for two reasons:
1. So we don't get deducted
2. So that after the contest is over, people will know multiple tricks for the Monk of PrCs

[dantiesilva]

well good luck competitors. I'm sure one of you will make the build i just made in like three minutes, but if you do i will b highly surprised saying it is way out in left field.

[Madara]

We're getting closer...

I'm getting nervous!