Balancing the Foodchain

[urkthegurk]

Right, well, in the standard rules, dragons haven't been nerfed, so... I was going on that. I guess I'm sorry?

You can easily read my comments as suggestions. I'm simply analyzing the possibilities of supporting a large number of super-predators without cannibalism or a boom-and-bust cycle. Thought it would help.

Sounds like you've got things figured out for a good campaign, I just prefer my ecosystems to be pseudo-realistic, not just the animals. If I put a lot of time into designing them, anyway. Some games don't need it.

ta.

[Veklim]

Interestingly enough, most of the largest and most unassailable creatures in our world survive by eating vast quantities of very small stuff (leaves, plankton, shoals of small fish, etc). This would suggest then, that the most important part of a balanced eco-system is an abundance of basic, low-level foodchain members, since all the big animals which feed the carnivores needs to be numerous.

So perhaps we're going about this from the wrong end...I propose a set of very small creatures which maintain certain habitats and encourage simple and abundant flora and fauna to thrive. This should serve to feed the necessary enormous herds which are needed for truly massive predators.

[Thinker]

Interestingly enough, most of the largest and most unassailable creatures in our world survive by eating vast quantities of very small stuff (leaves, plankton, shoals of small fish, etc). This would suggest then, that the most important part of a balanced eco-system is an abundance of basic, low-level foodchain members, since all the big animals which feed the carnivores needs to be numerous.

So perhaps we're going about this from the wrong end...I propose a set of very small creatures which maintain certain habitats and encourage simple and abundant flora and fauna to thrive. This should serve to feed the necessary enormous herds which are needed for truly massive predators.

I don't think that leaves, grass, and plankton need to be recreated.

[Veklim]

I don't think that leaves, grass, and plankton need to be recreated.

I wasn't suggesting that, what I was suggesting was more creatures like dung beetles, ladybirds and earthworms. They maintain certain environments and plants with their behaviour, and provide a massive source of food for many small predators.

With the above examples, we could assume giant dung beetles which follow the large herds about, fertilising the plains and feeding on waste. Also, huge swarms of tiny-sized bugs which eat ants and aphids, maintaining huge trees in a symbiotic relationship by providing protection from these minuscule invaders, helping the tree spread it's fruit, and maybe even guarding saplings from larger creatures as they grow. Then there's giant worms, we already have a few examples of those floating about, so I needn't go into detail on them.

These are the creatures which will bolster an eco-system and allow it to support larger numbers of big predators, because prey animals will flourish around these creatures, and the environments they create/protect.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

I'd be game with that. I'll see what I can come up with. If anyone has some ideas cooking, be my guest!

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Just as a heads up the "unused" section is up to date on post 3, in case anyone wanted to use them. Otherwise, anyone have any suggestions for any of the things in the blue text? Or have any neat ideas for creatures?

[Melayl]

For the Everfrost tree, perhaps it is more wide than tall, and animals shelter inside it. It uses that heat energy instead of light energy to maintain itsself through the lightless season. The animal excrement provides fertilizer, of course.

Or perhaps it just goes dormant-ish for that time period, much like deciduous trees do. No active growing until it gets enough light.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

For the Everfrost tree, perhaps it is more wide than tall, and animals shelter inside it. It uses that heat energy instead of light energy to maintain itsself through the lightless season. The animal excrement provides fertilizer, of course.

Or perhaps it just goes dormant-ish for that time period, much like deciduous trees do. No active growing until it gets enough light.

Out instead of up! I like it.

And dormant-ish makes sense...but now it doesn't seem very unique...any way we can "spruce" it up?

[Landis963]

Out instead of up! I like it.

And dormant-ish makes sense...but now it doesn't seem very unique...any way we can "spruce" it up?

It has been pining for that sort of detail.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

It has been pining for that sort of detail.

Landis! Been lurking long? But yes, if you have any ideas Fir the everfrost tree, I'd be firever greatful!

[Melayl]

Out instead of up! I like it.

And dormant-ish makes sense...but now it doesn't seem very unique...any way we can "spruce" it up?

Well, if it uses heat to grow, what if the fallen inner needles cause a reaction with the excrement of the caribou-animals (and others -- perhaps creatures that eat the needles?) that creates more heat? Sort of like a spontaneous combustion reaction, but not enough heat to produce flame.

More creatures would then flock to hide in it's branches for the heat, creating more heat for the plant to grow from (and more dung to produce more heat)... Local humanoids could actually start building homes within them for even more heat and growth potential.

Make them grow dome-like, perhaps with some of the branches that touch the ground rooting to create more stability to protect it (and it's animal heat/food source) from the harsh winds.

Unique enough fir ya? (if you can't beat them, join them)

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Well, if it uses heat to grow, what if the fallen inner needles cause a reaction with the excrement of the caribou-animals (and others -- perhaps creatures that eat the needles?) that creates more heat? Sort of like a spontaneous combustion reaction, but not enough heat to produce flame.

More creatures would then flock to hide in it's branches for the heat, creating more heat for the plant to grow from (and more dung to produce more heat)... Local humanoids could actually start building homes within them for even more heat and growth potential.

Make them grow dome-like, perhaps with some of the branches that touch the ground rooting to create more stability to protect it (and it's animal heat/food source) from the harsh winds.

Unique enough fir ya? (if you can't beat them, join them)

I like that 'branch' of thought. I think I'll trim up the idea a bit neater, and then get it on up there! Well done!

[TheWombatOfDoom]

And the everfrost is now complete. Thoughts?

[Thinker]

And the everfrost is now complete. Thoughts?

It looks good. Having a tree like that would drastically change the ecosystem of the tundra. It would allow many more animals to live there.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

It looks good. Having a tree like that would drastically change the ecosystem of the tundra. It would allow many more animals to live there.

Indeed it would! Makes it a whole lot less...susseptible to change, too. Unless of course, you got rid of the trees themselves. I don't see them getting very large underneath, however...One Bhrulle might be able to fit under it, but it would be none too comfy. I might have to edit the Bhrulle so it eats everfrosts. That would control the population spread of the everfrost, since...you know...its designed to withstand a lot of things that would usually kill it.

[Thinker]

Indeed it would! Makes it a whole lot less...susseptible to change, too. Unless of course, you got rid of the trees themselves. I don't see them getting very large underneath, however...One Bhrulle might be able to fit under it, but it would be none too comfy. I might have to edit the Bhrulle so it eats everfrosts. That would control the population spread of the everfrost, since...you know...its designed to withstand a lot of things that would usually kill it.

You could also give them slow reproductive cycles or create an additional condition that is relatively rare that they require.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

You could also give them slow reproductive cycles or create an additional condition that is relatively rare that they require.

I suppose the condition could be something to do with the snow plow antlers exposing the ground. That probably what they'd do to 'do their business'.

[DawnbringerSO]

Spider Vines: Giant vines that strike out and grab/snare large flying creatures and crush them to death before absorbing their moisture through their "skin".

Tree Tongue: A 4 legged animal with a long tongue that is a pure herbivore which uses its tongue to strip leaves off trees. The tree tongue is both tall and skinny. Its skin has black spots covering a brown surface. The entire animal is extremely toxic - attacking it with a non-reach weapon will poison you.

Perhaps black spots could be a common warning sign that a creature in your world is toxic, and certain non poisonous creatures may mimic it to fool predators.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Spider Vines: Giant vines that strike out and grab/snare large flying creatures and crush them to death before absorbing their moisture through their "skin".

Tree Tongue: A 4 legged animal with a long tongue that is a pure herbivore which uses its tongue to strip leaves off trees. The entire animal is extremely toxic - attacking it with a non-reach weapon will poison you.

Tree Tongue - What about the rest of the body? Is is tall, round, short, skinny, so on...

[lt_murgen]

A couple of ideas:

Not an animal, but an ecosystem. Imagine a tube-worm that filters nutrients from volcanic vents. It builds large (dozens of feet) tubes to protect its body as it grows. THe tubes are lattice-work, and provide places for water vapor to collect and cool. This, in turn, causes mold to grow on the cool sides of the tubes. This mold feeds colonies of large bats. Dragons could eat the worms, but most "farm" the worms around their volcanic nests and feed upon the large turkey-like bats.

Circle of life: large herbivores create lots of waste. Much of it ends up in the vvarious waterways. A species of mollusk/mussel is quite prevalent throughout the realm, feeding on the waste and cleaning the water. Larger fish, a kind of sturgeon-carp, feed upon them. Nothing but dragons can eat the sturgeon-carp due to the toxin build-up in the fish's muscles. It could be considered a "poor-dragons food".

[DawnbringerSO]

Tree Tongue - What about the rest of the body? Is is tall, round, short, skinny, so on...

I have edited the post for you.

[Thinker]

The Sniveler: An elongated, slug-like creature that is descended from a line of snakes. They secrete a sticky mucus from their scaly hide that helps them to climb straight up vertical surfaces, which gives the sniveler its name. Snivelers are blind, nocturnal herbivores that eat the leaves of tall trees. During the day, they sleep upside down , hanging from tree limbs or from other surfaces that hang over open air.

[Pokonic]

Icehead: This 3-4 foot long blue-green fish is well known for florishing in in lakes and streams. One of there most interesting traits is the lump of magical ice that frames it's head, and it's ability to launch freezing blast at creatures that would normaly feed on it. Because of there ambient magical nature, they can live in nearly any freshwater area if there are enough in there because there presance eventualy changes the water's base tempature. They eat plant matter, any will do.

Emberbred Draketurtle: This powerful man-sized creature resembles a orange-colored snapping turtle with a bright red shell. Prime carnavore's, they will attempt to use it's claws when biting large prey to help rip off bite-sized chunks of flesh. They are known for producing a very hot burst of gas from there mouths, boiling water if it contacts it. Typicaly found in northern climes, they are willing to migrate on land for vast distances to find a body of water with large amounts of food.

Scritter: This strange creature resembles a flightless bat using it's hook-tipped wings for ground transport. Functioning a bit like a small species of ape, they leap from tree to tree using there wing-blades as grips into the bark. Some varients with larger claws live inside caves, while at least one smaller varient has adapted to city life well. They generaly consume plants, but some are willing to dig inside tree bark for tasty grubs. Urben living ones generaly consume garbage, with other trash-eaters being good eating. Occasionaly, one might stalk a small bird.

[frost890]

You can try taking a Que from nature as well. for instance. There are trees that have an ant colony running through them. if something comes to eat part of the tree the ants swarm to attack. In return the tree produces a sugary substance that they eat. now if these trees were big enough to drive a truck through and the ants were the size of a large dog...

You can also take some thing from the see and use it on land with a minor change or two. The some jelly fish sit atop the water and wait for fish to come through its trailing tentacles. it then poisons them and eats them. now if this thing were to spread along trees like the canopy or along a cave roof a dragon could eat part of it and it would still live and be able to eat some of the smaller things to regrow.

there are also flies that lay there eggs in people, the egg hatches and then eats its way out. kind of like the movie Alien. depending on how big they get in your world and how many eggs hatch you could have a large amount of vermin on your hand.
Honestly you would need something with an incredible breeding rate.

[willpell]

The bottom line is that Nature is freaking horrifying and an endless source of inspiration for D&D monstrosities.

[Veklim]

CREEPS (Ultimate Omnivore, no really, they even eat rocks!)
These creatures are stocky and squat insects with a 12 segment forked abdomen (kinda like an earwig). They have 6 powerful but small legs which splay out to the sides with a small set of tough hairs along the underside which aid in climbing and burrowing. The upper part of their body is upright, with an elongated head hanging back down from the top, with a long spine-like crest across the top. Their mandibles are made of a bio-mineral with similar properties to adamantine (created from the rock they digest as they burrow, see below) and are extremely elongated, resembling a pair of scythes, which they use as both tools and weapons, equally good at cutting and burrowing through rock or flesh. A sticky acid sprays forth from their mouth whenever they burrow, assisting them in cutting through rock as tough as basalt with alarming speed (10ft burrow through rock, 30ft through earth), and dealing minor but painful damage when they attack. They have a psionic hive mind which allows the Queen and any males within 100ft to 'see' anything a worker or warrior is doing at any given time. Males and the queen have independent intelligence scores, but multiple workers and warriors behave under a single intelligence score and always act as if a single entity. They are usually seen outside the hive in scouting groups (1-3), foraging groups (2-5 workers, 1-3 warriors) or harvesting groups (4-10 workers, 2-5 warriors). Larger groups are referred to as Swarms which will almost always be directed by at least 1 male, depending upon size (or perhaps even a queen, but that is rare). Swarms are extremely dangerous on account of their fierce attack, large numbers and worrying intelligence, and as such should be avoided by all but the toughest and best prepared of folk.

Worker (70% of hive population): These are tiny creatures, standing nearly 2ft tall and 3ft long, and weighing only 15lbs. Their mandible scythes are about 1 ft long, 3 inches wide across the base, tapering to a curved point at the end, which is serrated for the last 3 inches of length. They are usually very skittish, and prefer to burrow their way to safety than to fight unless they feel cornered or the hive/queen is at risk.

Warrior (25% of hive population): These are small sized, standing at 3ft tall and 5ft long and weigh over 40lbs, stockier than workers and with broader, more powerful mandible scythes. They are far more aggressive than the workers, preferring to stand and fight than to run away, often protecting the workers they are with and only retreating once their charges are safe.

Both workers and warriors have low animal intelligence in small groups (3 or less), but have been known to exhibit problem solving and tool use in larger numbers (4-10 = int 4, 11-20 = int 6, 21+ = int 8).

Male (5% of hive population): These creeps are medium sized, and stand in a more upright posture at about 7ft tall, weighing around 70lbs. Their mandible scythes are no larger than those of the worker's, but their front 2 legs are longer in propotion to their bodies and are used like rudimentary arms with simple, pincer-like hands at the end. Males have an individual mind (int 10), apart from the hive, and are the only creeps to have been observed communicating with other species in anything approaching a civilised manner. Although the species lacks vocal chords, they can chitter and clack a variety of sounds with various body parts, which along with simple psionic telepathy can be used to communicate effectively with many intelligent creatures to some extent. Often this communication occurs when the hive wishes to avoid trouble, and some males become well known to villages and towns where they collect tribute in the form of garden and cooking waste in return for the hive's benevolence and protection.

Males are also the generals when a hive goes to war, they telepathically command segments of the hive, to allow the hive mind to split into swarms, each one capable of independant choices and actions. This means a hive can display complex and ingenious strategies and tactics when really pushed. This is highly unusual though, since the hive is rarely in the sort of danger where it need be that openly aggressive. Males can use some psionic powers as psi-like powers (2 level 1 powers, which ones are up to the DM), which they fuel by the number of workers and warriors they have under their control. Although this psionic ability is limited, it can cause a nasty shock if unexpected.

When it comes to mating, males compete heavily to gain the favour of the queen. This rivalry is not always borne out in a fight however, often a battle of wits or a race to find the best food source will suffice to prove a particular male's dominance over the others. Once chosen, the male enters the royal chamber, where both his mind and body (and possible even it's soul) are completely consumed by the queen. This fertilises the year's clutch.

The Queen: The big momma herself is indeed a sight to behold (although only a very small number of people have ever seen one and lived to tell the tale). She is large sized, being 10ft long 6ft high at the head, weighing over 600lbs, with a bloated abdomen and an extra set of legs at the front with scythes much like those of her mandibles, which are 2ft long and completely smooth. She has a fierce intellect (int 20) but can only influence the hive itself, since scouts, foragers, harvesters and even most swarms go beyond her psionic range to perform their functions. She is constantly hungry and often in a little pain due to her almost continuous egg-laying (6/hour average), and this is a large part of the reason that anything or anyone which even attempts to communicate with the queen is likely to be ripped apart. If you wanna talk to a creep, talk to a male.

The queen is considered a psion telepath, having access to many psi-like telepathy powers, along with one or two more directly offensive ones and one or two useful others (again, which ones should be DM choice).

There are many stories of queens having particularly powerful or impressive males of sentient races brought before her, which she consumes instead of a male creep to reproduce. According to the stories, this is the only way a queen will lay a female egg, which is taken away by 3 males and a few dozen warriors and workers to be hatched in a brand new royal chamber. This chamber is often dozens, if not hundreds of miles from the current hive, and becomes entirely independant the moment the female hatches. This new queen will exhibit mental and physical aspects of her 'father', and pass these things onto her brood, meaning every hive shows subtle but distinct differences in appearance.

Lifespans: Workers and warriors can live to be 3 or 4 years old if they're lucky, but most aren't. Their average life expectancy is around about 6 months due to accidents and predation. Males can live to be 40, but will usually die far earlier by either failing or succeeding to win the right to mate. Males known to communicate frequently with other species often live long lives though, as it seems they are considered important (or possibly distasteful) enough by the queen to keep alive. A queen has no lifespan limit that anyone has ever been able to determine, there are hives on the outskirts of dragon lands which have been around as long as any dragon remembers.

Foodchain: Many predators subsist on a diet including workers and warriors (perhaps even the odd male if they're feeling lucky) as long as they're powerful enough to catch and consume them without issue. The tough chitinous exoskeleton contains little calorific value but is a wonderful source of essential minerals, and the soft juicy internals of a creep are one of the highest energy-mass foods known, making them perfect for creatures like dragons who enjoy a compact but energising meal. The sheer abundance of creeps in only a single hive could sustain a dragon indefinitely with only a little care and prudence.

Creeps are immune to non-magical poisons and diseases, and will eat just about anything including animal and vegetable matter in any state, minerals (consumed whenever they burrow) and even adventuring equipment (hehehe). More often than not, they will target carrion and rotting vegetation first, preferring it for some unknown reason. As such the most common sightings of creeps are after large battles and climatic catastrophies, but have been sighted often enough on the edges of farmland in the late spring, where they will eat the muck spread on the fields, and even young livestock on occassion.

Very rarely, a hive will come across a prodigious amount of food which is close enough for the queen to reach (she generally dislikes moving from her royal chambers at the heart of the hive). When this happens, the entire hive acts as one under the guidance of the queen, and undermines the entire area by creating a chasm beneath. This is collapsed to create a creep-crater, filled with the lovely edibles from the surface, and is set upon by the entire colony in a feeding frenzy of horrific proportions which may last up to 3 days. There are tales of entire towns disappearing into a creep-crater, and history tells grim tales of such occurences and the following purges led against the offending hive. Nobody is even vaguely aware of a reason why a queen may suddenly opt to commit such a heinous act, but speculation has sparked countless debates and studies for generations on the topic.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Horray! Welcome back Veklim!

[Veklim]

Did you want stats and other game rule info, or is it more for the flavour just now? Will check out the custom magic thread in next few days and try tackling another point on that list

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Did you want stats and other game rule info, or is it more for the flavour just now? Will check out the custom magic thread in next few days and try tackling another point on that list

Sure, go for it! As far as points, lets try and focus on overloading and the three "forces" for now. The rest I have pretty much figured out.

[Thinker]

Any updates on how this is going?