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    Default to rogue as paladin is to fighter [3.5 base peach]

    Consular Paladin

    Not all who are called to the light are called to the sword.

    Consular Paladins (often shortened to "Consulars") are called by the forces of good just as traditional Paladins are, but they do not specialize in violence. The adventures on which a Consular might find herself are widely varied. One day she might negotiate peace between warring tribes, the next sniff out corruption in a civilized government and the next stealthfully recover an artifact from the horde of a red dragon. And on occasion she might slay a monster. Consulars are generally not opposed to violence in just cause, they simply do not specialize in it.

    {table=head]Level|BAB|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|1st|2nd|3rd|4th
    1st|0|0|2|0|Aura Of Good, Detect Evil, Trapfinding, Outwit Evil 1/Day||||
    2nd|1|0|3|0|Evasion, Divine Grace, Lay On Hands, Smite Evil 1/Day||||
    3rd|2|1|3|1|Trap Sense +1, Aura Of Courage/Resolve, Divine Health, Knowledge Of The Saints||||
    4th|3|1|4|1|Uncanny Dodge, Turn Undead|0|||
    5th|3|1|4|1|Outwit Evil 1/5hours, Companion|0|||
    6th|4|2|5|2|Remove Disease, Outwit Evil 2xcha, Trap Sense +2|1|||
    7th|5|2|5|2|Smite Evil 2/Day|1|||
    8th|6|2|6|2|Improved Uncanny Dodge|1|0||
    9th|6|3|6|3|Special Ability, Trap Sense +3|1|0||
    10th|7|3|7|3|Outwit Evil 1/Hour|1|1||
    11th|8|3|7|3|Outwit Evil 3xcha|1|1|0|
    12th|9|4|8|4|Summon Conscience, Trap Sense +4|1|1|1|
    13th|9|4|8|4|Special Ability|1|1|1|
    14th|10|4|9|4|Smite Evil 3/Day|2|1|1|0
    15th|11|5|9|5|Outwit Evil 1/10minutes, Trap Sense +5|2|1|1|1
    16th|12|5|10|5|Outwit Evil 4xcha|2|2|1|1
    17th|12|5|10|5|Special Ability|2|2|2|1
    18th|13|6|11|6|Tongues, Trap Sense +6|3|2|2|1
    19th|14|6|11|6|Bestow Skill|3|3|3|2
    20th|15|6|12|6|Smite Evil 4/Day, Outwit Evil 1/Min|3|3|3|3[/table]
    Hit Die: d6
    Skills: 8+int
    Class Skills: Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Concentration (con), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (any) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex).

    Code: A Consular Paladin must always be of good alignment, protect the innocent, help those in need (provided they do not plan to use that help for evil purposes) and oppose the evil. A Consular who fails to follow this code loses all supernatural class abilities until she receives an Atonement spell.

    Spellcasting: A Consular Paladin prepares and casts divine spells like a traditional Paladin, except that she uses her charisma and casts from the following list:
    • Bless, Bless Water, Bless Weapon, Create Water, Cure Light Wounds, Detect Poison, Detect Undead, Divine Favor, Endure Elements, Feather Fall, Ghost Sound, Jump, Magic Weapon, Obscuring Mist, Protection from Evil, Read Magic, Resistance, Lesser Restoration, Sleep, Virtue
    • Alter Self, Cat's Grace, Comprehend Language, Delay Poison, Eagle's Splendor, Fox's Cunning, Guidance of the Avatar, Invisibility, Owl's Wisdom, Remove Paralysis, Resist Energy, Pass Without Trace, Shield OtherF, Spider Climb, Undetectable Alignment, Zone of Truth
    • Cure Moderate Wounds, Daylight, Deep Slumber, Discern Lies, Dispel Magic, Magic Circle against Evil, Greater Magic Weapon, Major Image, Prayer, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Curse, Tongues
    • Atonement, Break Enchantment, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Cure Serious Wounds, Death Ward, Dimension Door, Dispel Evil, Freedom Of Movement, Holy Sword, Glibness, Greater Invisibility, Locate Creature, Mark of Justice, Minor Creation, Neutralize Poison, RestorationM


    Aura Of Good (su): As Paladin

    Detect Evil (su): As Paladin

    Trapfinding (ex): As Rogue

    Outwit Evil (su): When a Consular makes an opposed skill check against an evil creature, she may use the Outwit Evil power to add her charisma bonus to the check. At first she may do this only once per day, but as she progresses this period shrinks. Also, the bonus increases to multiples of her charisma bonus.

    Evasion (ex): As Rogue

    Divine Grace (su): As Paladin

    Lay On Hands (su): As Paladin

    Smite Evil (su): As Paladin, except that the bonus damage is only 3/4 of her class level (rounded down).

    Trap Sense (ex): As Rogue

    Aura Of Courage/Resolve (su): A Consular gains a +6 sacred bonus on saves against fear or compulsion. All allies within 30 ft gain a +2 bonus.

    Divine Health (su): As Paladin

    Knowledge Of The Saints (su): A Consular can attune her mind to all the righteous experts who have gone before. To do so, she must meditate for an hour. At the end of that hour, she makes a knowledge check (she may take 10) and add her class level to the result. She treats all knowledge skills as trained while using this power.

    Uncanny Dodge (ex): As Rogue

    Turn Undead (su): As Paladin

    Companion (su): Like a Paladin's mount, but a leopard, rat or owl (The Consular generally does not ride it)

    Remove Disease (su): A Consular can Remove Disease (as the spell), by performing a 1 minute ritual which deals 1 point of nonlethal damage to her. She may do this as often as she wishes (until she passes out from accumulated damage).

    Improved Uncanny Dodge (ex): As Rogue

    Special Ability: One of the following:
    • Improved Evasion (ex): As Rogue
    • Skill Mastery (ex): As Rogue
    • Sacred Skill (su): A +6 sacred bonus to each of two related skills. Skills are treated as related if there exists a feat which gives a +2 bonus to each of them, but additional thematically-linked pairs may be selected with GM's approval.
    • Wings (su): Retractable feathered wings, which allow the Consular to fly at twice her base speed.
    • Feat: Any for which she qualifies


    Summon Conscience (ex): A Consular knows there is goodness in unlikely people. With a few minutes of conversation, she can bring that goodness to the forefront. After five minutes of talking to a nongood, free-willed creature, she makes a diplomacy check opposed by the target's will save (evil creatures get a +5 bonus). If she succeeds, the target acts as a good creature for the next hour. This does not necessarily make the target a hero, or an ally. While setting-specific exceptions may apply, a creature is free-willed if it has an intelligence score of at least 3 and its alignment is not described as "always".

    Tongues (su): Like Angels, Consulars can communicate with any creature that has a language.

    Bestow Skill (su): Often, the greatest good is not simply to help others but to empower them. A Consular can do this quickly and directly, joining her mind to another and sharing her skills. She may grant a total number of ranks equal to her class level. She can never bring a recipient above his hit-die limit or above half her ranks if the skill. The bestowal of skills takes an hour, during which neither the Consular nor recipient may take any other action. The bestowed skills may be temporary or permanent. Temporary skills fade after one day. No one may posses multiple batches of temporarily bestowed skills at once. Permanent skills cost 100xp/rank to bestow.

    Naming
    In settings where Consular Paladins are common, non-Consular Paladins are referred to as "Guardian Paladins".

    Author's Notes:
    Spoiler
    Show

    It's always bugged me how only warriors could be champions of goodness, while in real life many of the best people ever never raised a hand in violence. This is my attempt to answer that.

    I figured UA indicated sneak attack and bonus feats were roughly comparable, so if a paladin is fighter - bonus feats + holy class features this should be rogue - sneak attack + holy class features. Then I tweaked things until they made sense. I added a bunch of late-game stuff because both classes are somewhat front-loaded. I changed the spellcasting to charisma because this was looking completely MAD. I also dropped all the lawful stuff because you can't really serve both law and good.

    I'm still not satisfied with the name. I spent ages looking through the history of the Holy Roman Empire (where "paladin" comes from), the Orders of the Catholic Church, the sayings of the Talmud before I finally settled on this from Star Wars. Ah well. How important are names, anyway?
    Last edited by dspeyer; 2012-11-11 at 12:09 PM.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: to rogue as fighter is to paladin [3.5 base peach]

    Quote Originally Posted by dspeyer View Post
    Aura Of Courage/Resolve (su): A Co: Restores level and ability score drains. nsular gains a +6
    Got a small edit error here, only one I noticed on a cursory glance.

    The class looks interesting, and would actually fit REMARKABLY well in my current campaign setting. If this turns out to be something I incorporate I shall inform you of any playtesting done

    Especially like Outwit Evil, nice and simple yet flavoursome ability, and the use progression is an interesting step sideways from the standard fare of /day - /encounter - /at will.

    Shall try and give a good old PEACHing asap, thinking this could be a lovely addition to my allowed 'brew content list.

    Quote Originally Posted by dspeyer View Post
    It's always bugged me how only warriors could be champions of goodness, while in real life many of the best people ever never raised a hand in violence. This is my attempt to answer that.
    Hate to point it out, but a good aligned cloistered cleric is as non-combatant as a 'champion of goodness' could get I'd say...ignoring the silliness involved in 9 level casting that is...
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    Default Re: to rogue as fighter is to paladin [3.5 base peach]

    Looks interesting. I'll be keeping an eye on this one.

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    Default Re: to rogue as fighter is to paladin [3.5 base peach]

    Quote Originally Posted by Veklim View Post
    Got a small edit error here, only one I noticed on a cursory glance.
    Fixed

    Quote Originally Posted by Veklim View Post
    Hate to point it out, but a good aligned cloistered cleric is as non-combatant as a 'champion of goodness' could get I'd say...ignoring the silliness involved in 9 level casting that is...
    I suppose you could be a cloistered cleric of goodness who doesn't dmm persist divine power. Ah well. This class is still a different niche.
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: to rogue as fighter is to paladin [3.5 base peach]

    So this isn't a problem but is (I know that didn't make sense)

    From the point of how you built the class, I see why he has trapfinding, but I'm not sure he should. Basically, It reminds me less of a paladin/rogue and more of a divine bard.
    a- I'm not sure he needs it to be a useful character, as he already looks quite nice.
    b- I'm not sure it fits, as he's all about opposed skill checks and social skills instead of locks and traps.
    c- like the bard, his powers are much more focused on support (healing/etc) rather than sneaky things.

    I don't think it's bad, I actually quite like the class, I just think it replaces a bard better than a rogue.
    Power Corrupts. Absolute power's kind of nice, though.


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    Default Re: to rogue as fighter is to paladin [3.5 base peach]

    While nice, and Interesting, this is more of A Paladin of Monks then Paladin of Rogues, as the Paladin to Rogues is the Holy Liberator PrC

    The companion doesnt really make sense when compared to what you wanted this class to be, would a Paladin Negotiator not be better off with an American standardbred then a Leopard? This is a Paladin of the Court, not a Paladin of the Battlefield, being able to get there fast would be a good thing.

    Consular's Standardbred
    Large Animal
    Hit Dice: 3d8+6 (19 Hp)
    Speed: 90 Ft
    Armor Class: 13 (1 size, +1 Dex, +3 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 12
    Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+8
    Attack: Hoof 2 melee (1d4+1*)
    Full Attack: 2 hooves 2 melee (1d4+1*)
    Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
    Saves: Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +2
    Abilities: Str 14, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
    Skills: Listen +4, Spot +4
    Feats: Endurance, Run
    Environment: Temperate plains
    Organization: Domesticated or herd (630)
    Challenge Rating: 1
    Treasure: None
    Alignment: Always neutral
    Advancement: -
    Level Adjustment: -


    My Homebrew: found here.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: to rogue as fighter is to paladin [3.5 base peach]

    1. drop smite evil. smite evil is weak enough at full strength. giving a gimped damage bonus kind of defeats the purpose of having it.

    2. change aura of courage. make it immune to fear, and gives allies within 30 ft. a +2 bonus against fear. again, there's really no point in having the paladin class feature unless you have it full strength.

    3. make knowledge of the saints allow untrained knowledge checks.

    4. replace companion with a druid's animal companion, but limit the choice list to the 3 creatures you mentioned, and greater creatures along the same theme (dire rats, lions, tigers, dire versions of both, giant owl, etc.). make all the creatures celestial creatures.

    5. allow summon conscience to apply to evil creatures, and reduce the action to 1 full round. make it a Supernatural, mind affecting ability. also, saves vs. skill checks don't work very well, because skills scale so much faster. have the target make a level check + Wisdom and Charisma bonuses instead.

    6. drop bestow skill's action to 1 minute, and remove the permanent option. otherwise, you'll end up with a party full of characters with max skill ranks in everything, and your skillmonkey class just ceased to be useful. never give a class an option to make themselves irrelevant.
    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

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    Default Re: to rogue as fighter is to paladin [3.5 base peach]

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    While nice, and Interesting, this is more of A Paladin of Monks then Paladin of Rogues, as the Paladin to Rogues is the Holy Liberator PrC
    Huh? Holy Liberator is violence-focused. Full bab, 2+int skills.... Basically Paladin of Freedom the Prestige Class.

    Quote Originally Posted by corran_132 View Post
    he's all about opposed skill checks and social skills instead of locks and traps.
    While it can go social-focused, I certainly intended this class to be a capable sneak/scout. What more would you want in one?

    Quote Originally Posted by lunar2 View Post
    1. drop smite evil. smite evil is weak enough at full strength. giving a gimped damage bonus kind of defeats the purpose of having it.
    3/4 smite evil to go with 3/4 bab. Sort of the way a rogue's fighting prowess compares to a fighters.

    Quote Originally Posted by lunar2 View Post
    2. change aura of courage. make it immune to fear, and gives allies within 30 ft. a +2 bonus against fear. again, there's really no point in having the paladin class feature unless you have it full strength.
    A +6 bonus is enough to throw off most things. Remember that traditional paladins get immunity to fear OR compulsion, and I'm giving both (because the whole valor vs freedom thing never made a ton of sense to me).

    Quote Originally Posted by lunar2 View Post
    3. make knowledge of the saints allow untrained knowledge checks.
    Good idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by lunar2 View Post
    4. replace companion with a druid's animal companion, but limit the choice list to the 3 creatures you mentioned, and greater creatures along the same theme (dire rats, lions, tigers, dire versions of both, giant owl, etc.). make all the creatures celestial creatures.
    Huh? This is an exalted character, not a natury one.

    Quote Originally Posted by lunar2 View Post
    5. allow summon conscience to apply to evil creatures, and reduce the action to 1 full round. make it a Supernatural, mind affecting ability. also, saves vs. skill checks don't work very well, because skills scale so much faster. have the target make a level check + Wisdom and Charisma bonuses instead.
    This is much awesomer as Ex. Think Harry to Slughorn or Xander to Willow.

    Allowing to evil does make sense, though I put it at a penalty. And you still can't do this to devils or the like.

    Quote Originally Posted by lunar2 View Post
    6. drop bestow skill's action to 1 minute, and remove the permanent option. otherwise, you'll end up with a party full of characters with max skill ranks in everything, and your skillmonkey class just ceased to be useful. never give a class an option to make themselves irrelevant.
    Permanent is the heart of the ability. The greatest form of charity is that which makes the recipient self-sufficient.

    You have a point about irrelevancy, though. I've dropped the limit to half her own.
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    Default Re: to rogue as fighter is to paladin [3.5 base peach]

    Quote Originally Posted by dspeyer View Post
    Huh? Holy Liberator is violence-focused. Full bab, 2+int skills.... Basically Paladin of Freedom the Prestige Class.
    you arent getting the comparison then. Rogues are both Skillmonkeys and also have good (if limited) offense from sneak attack damage, as well as class features relevant to their role. Holy Liberator is to paladin because Holy Liberator is a class which is unbarred by honorable combat, as the rogue is to fighter.

    Monks, on the other hand, have poor offense, but were also designed with the intention of being a sort of Sage type class.


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    Daemon

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    Default Re: to rogue as fighter is to paladin [3.5 base peach]

    Wings needs a mobility score.

    Summon Conscience: In my opinion, always being a specific alignment shouldn't really matter. I don't see why a level 12 character couldn't convince a werewolf in human form to play nice for a short while.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: to rogue as fighter is to paladin [3.5 base peach]

    Hrm, the whole comparison to rogue makes enough sense to me, but honestly they resemble bard-a-likes much more than rogue I think. They deal with the social skills above anything else and have many abilities which rely on twisting the thoughts of their opponents.

    The title, btw, should read to rogue as paladin is to fighter (since you state - to rogue). Small niggle, sorry!

    With regards to Summon Conscience, the diplomacy vs. will thing is horribly weighed in favour of the Consular. Between synergies, feats and kit, you can have a +30 to diplomacy by the same sort of time that a will-centric build can hit about +12. My personal suggestion would be to make it a diplomacy check with a -10 modifier to it, and to remove the bonus an evil creature gets. Maybe change it to 1 minute also, 5 minutes with an evil-doer in a campaign running holy warriors means for 3 or 4 of those minutes, everyone has likely been trying to kill each other already!
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    Default Re: to rogue as fighter is to paladin [3.5 base peach]

    Quote Originally Posted by dspeyer View Post
    3/4 smite evil to go with 3/4 bab. Sort of the way a rogue's fighting prowess compares to a fighters.
    the point i was making is that smite evil is a weak class feature. having a gimped version of it isn't much different than not having it at all.

    A +6 bonus is enough to throw off most things. Remember that traditional paladins get immunity to fear OR compulsion, and I'm giving both (because the whole valor vs freedom thing never made a ton of sense to me).
    actually, traditional paladins don't have a choice. they get immunity to fear, that's it. also, i missed the bit about compulsion. and you might as well just call it aura of resolve. the way it's named now suggests that you are giving the option of 2 alternative class features. it makes it needlessly complicated.


    Huh? This is an exalted character, not a natury one.
    which is why they automatically get the celestial template. i'm just saying that the animal companion's mechanics work better than the mount's mechanics.


    This is much awesomer as Ex. Think Harry to Slughorn or Xander to Willow.

    Allowing to evil does make sense, though I put it at a penalty. And you still can't do this to devils or the like.
    you are forcing another creature's alignment to change temporarily. that is most definitely a Su ability. also, harry to slughorn is definitely a straight diplomacy check, not forcing an alignment change. don't know who xander or willow are, so i can't say anything about that.



    Permanent is the heart of the ability. The greatest form of charity is that which makes the recipient self-sufficient.

    You have a point about irrelevancy, though. I've dropped the limit to half her own.
    dropping the limit works, too. still, i would suggest making it a 1 minute action, instead of a 1 hour action. either that, or remove "quickly" from the description.
    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

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    Default Re: to rogue as fighter is to paladin [3.5 base peach]

    Quote Originally Posted by lunar2 View Post
    don't know who xander or willow are, so i can't say anything about that.
    your rights to be on the internet are hereby renounced until you learn who those characters are

    Also, Mechanically, Yes, Animal Companion is better.

    Flavorfully, This class shouldnt be out in the field unless they are running messages between kingdoms, in which case, a weak little pet isnt going to be better then a racehorse to get you from town to town.


    My Homebrew: found here.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: to rogue as fighter is to paladin [3.5 base peach]

    except that the only choices he gave are rat, leopard, and owl. no actual mounts, just mount mechanics. that's why i suggested the animal companion feature instead. it fits the creature choices better, and is mechanically more powerful. to tie it into the exalted fluff, just make them celestial animals.
    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

    Where did you start yours?

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