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  1. - Top - End - #421
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

    No, sorry, I'm not talking about direct combat lethality (or even direct social conflict, necessarily). It's just... crap, how do I put this... It seems like even though the disparity in abilities remains within a couple of dice, any competition between high-XP vampires favors the specialist over the generalist because of his Disciplines. Both can use indirect means like Status, Allies, and Resources to fill in their weaknesses, but a specialists strengths will be greater than a generalists ability to compensate.

    Hm. Maybe that's the question I should be asking; will a Discipline-generalist elder be outmatched by a Discipline-specialist? You could have a specialist buy five dots in two Clan Disciplines, and two non-Clan Disciplines (or Coils or Cruac or whatever). For the same price you could have six two dot and two three dot Clan Disciplines, and five three dot non-Clan Disciplines. If the generalist goes on the offensive, he'll be able to deal more easily with the specialists defenses, but not with the specialist himself. If the specialist goes on the offensive, he'll be able to cut through everything with the high-end stuff.

    Is this disjointed rambling? 'Cause it feels like disjointed rambling.
    Last edited by Cirrylius; 2012-11-22 at 08:48 PM.

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    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cirrylius View Post
    No, sorry, I'm not talking about direct combat lethality (or even direct social conflict, necessarily). It's just... crap, how do I put this... It seems like even though the disparity in abilities remains within a couple of dice, any competition between high-XP vampires favors the specialist over the generalist because of his Disciplines. Both can use indirect means like Status, Allies, and Resources to fill in their weaknesses, but a specialists strengths will be greater than a generalists ability to compensate.
    To continue with Selrahc's example, adding 200 XP onto the 50 XP combat beast he built means that he is now a generalist beast. Not only is he deadly in combat, but he has comparable abilities in two or three other areas as well. Once you hit what could be called "Elder" rating, you have enough XP to be a general specialist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cirrylius View Post
    Hm. Maybe that's the question I should be asking; will a Discipline-generalist elder be outmatched by a Discipline-specialist? You could have a specialist buy five dots in two Clan Disciplines, and two non-Clan Disciplines (or Coils or Cruac or whatever). For the same price you could have six two dot and two three dot Clan Disciplines, and five three dot non-Clan Disciplines. If the generalist goes on the offensive, he'll be able to deal more easily with the specialists defenses, but not with the specialist himself. If the specialist goes on the offensive, he'll be able to cut through everything with the high-end stuff.
    I'm not sure where you're getting 8 different clan disciplines, considering that, even with bloodlines, the most a vampire will have is 4. I could be mistaken, of course, but that's what I've seen so far.

    Anyway, to answer that question, you want to specialize. The discipline-specialist will beat the discipline-generalist every time, simply because he has access to greater powers than the generalist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cirrylius View Post
    Is this disjointed rambling? 'Cause it feels like disjointed rambling.
    Maybe a little disjointed, but we'll forgive you this time.
    Quote Originally Posted by CN the Logos View Post
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  3. - Top - End - #423
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    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cirrylius View Post
    For the same price you could have six two dot and two three dot Clan Disciplines, and five three dot non-Clan Disciplines.
    Wow. I was NOT paying attention.

  4. - Top - End - #424
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    Quote Originally Posted by CN the Logos View Post
    I've heard of that series before. My girlfriend would probably enjoy it; she was playing Vampire: The Masquerade before I knew what a White Wolf was and preferred the Sabbat, specifically Lasombra, for the shadow tentacles and monster transformation. Her favorite character (or at least the one she's told me about and tried to bring back in one game using the Vampire Translation Guide that never got off the ground) was a genderqueer Lasombra who'd gotten a Tzimisce to do some work on hir, resulting in something apparently akin to a less attractive Kuja. With Obtenebration.

    I think I can get away with some darkness, is what I'm saying.

    Any other interesting examples of the genre that are relatively short (13 to 26 episodes as opposed to the couple hundred episodes of Sailor Moon) and targeted`to an older audience?

    Also, apparently the PDF version and wiki/EPUB version of Princess have some mechanical differences due to the creators having different ideas about what they wanted to do. Anyone know what those differences are? I like having a PDF, so if that version's good it's probably what I'll go with, but if there's a clear difference in quality I'd like to go with the better version.
    Short and made for an older male audience? Sounds like Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha (Warning! Link leads to TV Tropes, read at your own peril!) The first two seasons are both only 13 episodes long and probably the best part of the series. As a source of inspiration for Princess, the main things to note are the nature of the antagonists and the power level. Princess is a street level game, while Nanoha and friends pack mecha-class firepower. As for the badguysgirls, unlike most of the genre, Nanoha drops the "monster of the week" format after the first few episodes, instead focusing on the conflict between the heroine and her dark counterpart(s). Princess has plenty of support for that though.

    Another thing worth looking into might be Sailor Nothing (warning, more TV Tropes). An old and classic dark deconstruction of the genre, it's much closer to the genre's standard format and Princess' power level, but the tone is much darker. Princess, by contrast, is meant to be a reconstruction, so while they share many themes, PCs in Princess are unlikely to be laboring under quite so many Shadows as poor Himei.

    On another subject, I'm kind of interested in that Dexter's Lab, the RPG game, though I've never done pbp before. I might be willing to ST, but I've only played nWoD once, and my only experience GMing is for Mutant's&Masterminds, and that was just a string of combat encounters with a plot that was little more than window dressing. So all told, you'd probably be better off with some one else.

  5. - Top - End - #425
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam cw View Post
    Warning! Link leads to TV Tropes, read at your own peril!
    Damn your eyes, you knew that warning would accomplish NOTHING!!


    ...NOTHING.
    Last edited by Cirrylius; 2012-11-22 at 11:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam cw View Post
    Another thing worth looking into might be Sailor Nothing...
    I've been meaning to look into Nanoha, and I'm currently reading Sailor Nothing. Really good story, that one is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam cw View Post
    On another subject, I'm kind of interested in that Dexter's Lab, the RPG game, though I've never done pbp before. I might be willing to ST, but I've only played nWoD once, and my only experience GMing is for Mutant's&Masterminds, and that was just a string of combat encounters with a plot that was little more than window dressing. So all told, you'd probably be better off with some one else.
    The offer's appreciated nevertheless, but yeah, I'm not sure jumping into ST'ing a three-fan-splat crossover as your first PBP experience is a good idea. You think we should actually make a thread about this game over on the PBP recruitment board? We might actually find an ST there.
    Quote Originally Posted by CN the Logos View Post
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    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

    Quote Originally Posted by ToySoldierCPlus View Post
    The offer's appreciated nevertheless, but yeah, I'm not sure jumping into ST'ing a three-fan-splat crossover as your first PBP experience is a good idea. You think we should actually make a thread about this game over on the PBP recruitment board? We might actually find an ST there.
    Might be a good idea, yeah.
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    Quote Originally Posted by archaeo View Post
    Man, this is just one of those things you see and realize, "I live in a weird and banal future."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki Akuma View Post
    Might be a good idea, yeah.
    Alright, then. I'll make a thread over there. To be sure, we're looking for a Genuis-Leviathan-Princess crossover game, right? And we just need someone to ST, I think we have enough interest here.

    EDIT: Thread's up. Everyone interested should check in over there.
    Last edited by ToySoldierCPlus; 2012-11-24 at 11:34 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by CN the Logos View Post
    They're just there, and horribly fatal when one stumbles across them, like self-aware landmines.

  9. - Top - End - #429
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    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

    For all interested, there's a new development blog about the Strix Chronicles, this time detailing the plans for new versions of Animalism and Dominate.
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    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

    I'm considering buying some of the Werewolf books. I have the core WtF book but I kind of want to get some more. Predators, Blasphemies and the Pure seem like they would be useful. Are there any others that are considered good?
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    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

    Quote Originally Posted by Grytorm View Post
    I'm considering buying some of the Werewolf books. I have the core WtF book but I kind of want to get some more. Predators, Blasphemies and the Pure seem like they would be useful. Are there any others that are considered good?
    What are you looking for? Rage: the players guide has a lot of interesting setting information, and I think auspices of the moon or aspects of the moon has some really useful mechanics in it. The villain books are always good, and the pure starts out well (haven't finished it, read it some months ago).

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    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

    To some extent I want to get a better idea of the setting. Mostly because I've been thinking about the game somewhat and kind of want to try to run a game*. If I did convince anyone to play I have some ideas of where to start. To some extent I want to figure out how werewolves interact and just more ideas of how the setting works.


    * This probably isn't the best idea because I haven't played many games of anything in real life. But I hope to eventually.
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    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

    Quote Originally Posted by Grytorm View Post
    To some extent I want to get a better idea of the setting. Mostly because I've been thinking about the game somewhat and kind of want to try to run a game*. If I did convince anyone to play I have some ideas of where to start. To some extent I want to figure out how werewolves interact and just more ideas of how the setting works.


    * This probably isn't the best idea because I haven't played many games of anything in real life. But I hope to eventually.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvos330 View Post
    I recomend anything on the Umbra. It really shows you the spiritual side of everything.
    That pun is bad, and you should feel bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by CN the Logos View Post
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    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

    Quote Originally Posted by Grytorm View Post
    I'm considering buying some of the Werewolf books. I have the core WtF book but I kind of want to get some more. Predators, Blasphemies and the Pure seem like they would be useful. Are there any others that are considered good?
    Predators is sort of outdated now. Book of Spirits handles a lot of what it was doing, in a slightly better way. It's a decent enough book, and you can certainly use it to help make some interesting antagonists, but Book of Spirits is better for dealing with the Spirit world.

    Blasphemies... eh. Blasphemies is one of those very very NWoD books, which refuse to even give you the ghost of a definitive answer on the subjects it is ostensibly about. This can work out really well(Pandoras book takes the same approach, and is one of my favorite supplements), but in this case it doesn't. Sort of feels less like it's giving you possibilities, than it is chickening out of a question.

    Pure is good. It's a solid book, full of a lot of weighty rules, interesting ideas and a good take on the antagonist faction.

    Blood of the Wolf and Tribes of the Moon are the two "Social interaction" books, describing werewolf-society, and werewolves within human society in more detail. They're both pretty solid.
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    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

    I thought book of spirits was primarily a Geist book.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Opperhapsen View Post
    I thought book of spirits was primarily a Geist book.
    You're thinking of Book of the Dead, which was supposed to be primarily a Geist book, but got converted to a general NWoD book, with some nice supplemental rules for Geist.
    Quote Originally Posted by CN the Logos View Post
    They're just there, and horribly fatal when one stumbles across them, like self-aware landmines.

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    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

    Quote Originally Posted by Grytorm View Post
    To some extent I want to get a better idea of the setting. Mostly because I've been thinking about the game somewhat and kind of want to try to run a game*. If I did convince anyone to play I have some ideas of where to start. To some extent I want to figure out how werewolves interact and just more ideas of how the setting works.


    * This probably isn't the best idea because I haven't played many games of anything in real life. But I hope to eventually.
    I would suggest then, the core book, blood of the wolf, pure, and to look for some stories from actual games. There's one on RPG.net, "Detroit Rock City" that is very good, although the first character you meet skirts the border of Mary Sue and could easily put you off the tale. It's very engrossing, and a good look at some of the things in the game book, given context where before it was kind of vacuous.

    There's a book about wars and crusades that's pretty neat, but not mandatory.

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  19. - Top - End - #439
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    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

    If 'Short and for older audiences' isn't supposed to just mean 'older dudes', Madoka is difficult to ignore as a high-quality magical girl anime, and it's referenced in the Princess book itself (And it is entirely normal to have enjoyed Sailor Moon, Cardcaptor Sakura, and the like, and then gone on to enjoy Madoka, so I don't understand why one would recommend 'never showing it'). At least one of the Pretty Cures is meant for kids, but solidly executed enough to be enjoyable as an adult regardless, as well, but I can't seem to remember which offhand. I do think, however, that straight up Sailor Moon should certainly be manageable for a season, although perhaps not the dub. And not to put too fine a point on it, at least one season of My Little Pony may also be useful as well, and likely tolerable. The simple fact is, you really want to look at at least one season of something original and seminal, if only to contrast it to other, newer things. It'll also give you more of a frame of reference for your girlfriend discussing the matter, especially if you pick Sailor Moon and maybe Card Captor Sakura.

    The Princess .pdf and e-pub both key to the wiki; the 'creative differences' version appears to be dead, which is a pity I suppose. The difference between .pdf and e-pub is that one of them has the hoster's actual house rules (Rather than the fork that appeared to happen due to drama). I don't know which is which yet, and I don't know the differences either. It's a fansplat though, so it's got some issues, and is unclear at points, some of which I occasionally have to wrangle out of the creators. It's also an ongoing project. Mind that the game's theme is exhaustion by default, not failure nor misery. Succeeding and bringing hope is meant to be hard and draining, but not generally impossible.

    Edits: Probably late, but hey, never hurts to have the information up for the dude working on Princess. And *Yoink* Thanks folks playing a cross-fansplat game, your math will be used in place of my laziness in future nWoD games I run.

    Unrelated to mentionings of magical girls, are there books for major splats that detail potential interactions with smaller splats? Like, something for Mages and Prometheans, from the Mage's perspective instead?
    Last edited by RPGuru1331; 2012-12-08 at 08:15 AM.
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    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

    Me and my friends are having a disagreement on whether skin of the adder allows you to soak damage from feral claws. Relevant text:

    Feral Claws: The Beast is prominent in the claws as well, making them fearsome weapons against other immortals.

    The Skin of the Adder: The vampire may use her Stamina to soak aggravated damage from claws and fangs, but not from fire, sunlight, or other supernatural energies.

    My interpretation is that the beast's presence in the claws makes them illegable for that ability of SotA, despite it being claws. (I would allow the damage from a chainsaw to be soaked with SotA, even though it is neither fang nor claw).

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    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

    It specifically says 'aggravated from claws and fangs'. There are no non-supernatural claws in the entire OWoD that do aggravated damage...agg is pretty exclusively related to supernatural attacks or supernatural weaknesses. The Beast might be 'present' in the claws, but it's still a physical attack, not a supernatural energy attack the way a Lure of Flame Thaumaturgy blast would be.

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    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

    So. I just finished my first foray into Pledgecrafting. Which is unfortunately nameless at the moment, though suggestions are welcome. Thoughts?

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    By my true name, I grant you the power to see those who would hide from you for a single moon, one short month. One turning, dark to dark, in which all things will be revealed to you. Further, I swear that none but I shall walk through your dreams for this span, and your pleasant dreams shall themselves be my reward for this service.

    By your true name, you grant me leave to walk there that I may perform my task. Swear that you will let me take from your dreams what I deem fair payment, so long as it does you no harm. Swear that you will keep the knowledge I grant you from all who do not know it already, even as I keep your dreams, until the moon is as it was when we swore once again.

    And let the one who is forsworn in this oath wake to find its teeth at their throat; ill-luck follow you if you are proved false in your promise of silence, and may my strands on the loom of Fate tangle and snap should my boon prove empty.

    Do you so swear?


    Changeling:

    Dreaming: -2
    Ensorcellment: -2
    Glamour: +2
    Blessing: +2
    Curse: -2

    Moon: +2

    Mortal:

    Ensorcellment: +2
    Forbiddance: -2
    Curse: -2

    Moon: +2

    Type: Oath, True Name

    Invocation: 1 point of Willpower (both?), 1 point of Glamour (Changeling)

    Effects:

    The Changeling gains a point of Glamour each night that they enter the mortal's dreams, and works to make them both pleasant and safe from other intrusion. They also add two dots to an existing Merit, or gain a new Merit of two dots in strength, for the duration of the Pledge.

    The mortal is ensorcelled, gaining the ability to see the things of the supernatural world, so long as they maintain silence about the things that this allows them to see with those not aware of their existence.

    Should either party break this pledge, they are immediately afflicted with ill-luck; only a 9 or 10 in any dice pool counts a success.


    Obviously, I'm a little uncertain on the Invocation cost.

    Also, this is intentionally pretty much a mix of the Oath of the Rose and Thorn and the Pledge of Horn and Bone, so yes, I am aware of that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    It specifically says 'aggravated from claws and fangs'. There are no non-supernatural claws in the entire OWoD that do aggravated damage...agg is pretty exclusively related to supernatural attacks or supernatural weaknesses. The Beast might be 'present' in the claws, but it's still a physical attack, not a supernatural energy attack the way a Lure of Flame Thaumaturgy blast would be.
    Didn't chemical fires always do agg?
    Or was that nWoD?

    I remember something about chemical fires!

    Quote Originally Posted by ToySoldierCPlus View Post
    You're thinking of Book of the Dead, which was supposed to be primarily a Geist book, but got converted to a general NWoD book, with some nice supplemental rules for Geist.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    It specifically says 'aggravated from claws and fangs'. There are no non-supernatural claws in the entire OWoD that do aggravated damage...agg is pretty exclusively related to supernatural attacks or supernatural weaknesses.
    Fire, electricty on a botched soak roll, anti-personel rounds, chainsaws, dismemberment. Theres a fair list of mundane aggrevated damage. As for non-supernatural claws, are werewolf claws called out as supernatural?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    Fire, electricty on a botched soak roll, anti-personel rounds, chainsaws, dismemberment. Theres a fair list of mundane aggrevated damage. As for non-supernatural claws, are werewolf claws called out as supernatural?
    Werewolves only have claws when shapeshifted into crinos form, a supernatural power, so yes.

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    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

    I thought regular fire was only agg to Prometheans and Vampires?

    :D :D :D

    Werewolves only have claws when shapeshifted into crinos form, a supernatural power, so yes.
    This si the problem with the word 'supernatural'. AFAICT, Werewolves shifting into Gauru (Crinos is oldschool!) is a totally natural thing that we're just not aware of, and they're the only fangs or claws that deal agg under any circumstances I'm familiar with.
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    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

    The supernatural is part of the world, yeah. That doesn't make werewolves shapeshifting any less supernatural.

    Doesn't it cost Essence to shapeshift? I never actually read W:tF.
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    Quote Originally Posted by archaeo View Post
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    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

    Essence does it without a roll, otherwise you roll a pool I forget to transform.
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    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

    Quote Originally Posted by RPGuru1331 View Post
    Essence does it without a roll, otherwise you roll a pool I forget to transform.
    Right. That seems to point towards "it's magic".
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    Quote Originally Posted by archaeo View Post
    Man, this is just one of those things you see and realize, "I live in a weird and banal future."

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    Oct 2008

    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

    That's the wrong line of argument, since it can be done without. The one you actually want is that the Gift to do agg with claws costs Essence. Except since there's no 'natural' (The supernatural is honestly an incoherent concept outside of very particular game definitions, but whatever) Fangs or Claws that do agg except very particular Gifts/Disciplines, of what use is it if it doesn't protect from gifts/disciplines? I'm pretty sure we'r eall aware that White Wolf isn't aces at mechanics; who wants to leave a definitionally useless Discipline on the books
    Last edited by RPGuru1331; 2012-12-09 at 12:11 PM.
    Asok: Shouldn't we actually be working?
    And then Asok was thrown out of the car.

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