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    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to CeSlebrate!

    Quote Originally Posted by RPGuru1331 View Post
    Oh, word, really? Most excellent. I hope it goes next to Changeling and Hunter in my list of "Love n and o versions.". If I recall, its the same dude with a totally different focus.
    I'm really really crossing my fingers on it. The last blog post said a few small tweaks to the proof, the index, CCP approval and some tweaks to the KS and it's a go. A Mummy Christmas would be awesome. :)

  2. - Top - End - #482
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    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

    Quote Originally Posted by RPGuru1331 View Post
    I thought regular fire was only agg to Prometheans and Vampires?

    :D :D :D


    This si the problem with the word 'supernatural'. AFAICT, Werewolves shifting into Gauru (Crinos is oldschool!) is a totally natural thing that we're just not aware of, and they're the only fangs or claws that deal agg under any circumstances I'm familiar with.
    They are specifically talking about old school world of darkness though that's why the old school terms.

    And technically Gauru claws and fangs do not do aggravated damage at all. You can enchant them to do so, but that's the magic effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by RPGuru1331 View Post
    There are hundred foot long mountains of muscle in the real world. Shall I inform the biologists that they're studying things that don't exist?
    Sophistry. Hundred foot mountain of muscle that isn't half-ephemeral substance able to condense down to human form and walk between dimensions.

    [QUOTE=RPGuru1331;14349957]And? Unobserved and undefined laws of reality are no less laws. As far as the WoD is concerned, that's all part of the natural world.[/quite]

    Being a law of reality doesn't make something natural when it is an explicit point that several game splats can arbitrarily enforce their whims as law of reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by RPGuru1331 View Post
    Their world is part of the universe, though. Or multiverse, if you prefer, after having concrete evidence for alternate planes of reality. It exists (within the WoD), so it's natural.
    The Supernal realms are a part of the multiverse – more a part than our fallen 'reality'. But they are still supernatural, in the most literal sense; their nature is above, better and with higher priority than our own.

    Your argument sounds a lot like "Unicorns are real because if they weren't we wouldn't have the word or concept in our society". It's silly.

    The problem with the term 'supernatural' is it's generally a word that's used to mean 'things that don't exist'.
    Plenty of people in the world around you would disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by C'nor View Post
    So, uh... Moving to a subject that's hopefully less likely to devolve into bickering, does anyone mind telling me just how badly I messed up the pledge I posted a page back?
    I am so bad atpledgecrafting I think any advice would actually be detrimental. My attempts so far have led to being attacked with a knife, being abandoned in the hedge after having a favor extorted out of me, and I'm currently recovering from being tossed into a mosh pit of zombies by a Minotaur after trying to help him up.

    Meanwhile my motley mate tricked said Minotaur into a pledge that entirely skewed a fight in her favor. It's insane.

    If you mean the prose, I skimmed it because I was busy. I could look again? And your inbox is full

  3. - Top - End - #483
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    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to CeSlebrate!

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    No it really isn't. Tremier blood magic, changling magic, the magic of true mage, the magic of the hedge mage. If there is any clear relationship between the two words its:

    "All magic is supernatural, and all supernatural is kinda maybe magicish."
    ...What does this even mean?

    "I can name a bunch of supernatural powers that are called magic, so therefore, not all supernatural powers are magic"?

    I'm afraid that conclusion does not follow the premise. At all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by archaeo View Post
    Man, this is just one of those things you see and realize, "I live in a weird and banal future."

  4. - Top - End - #484
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    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to CeSlebrate!

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki Akuma View Post
    ...What does this even mean?

    "I can name a bunch of supernatural powers that are called magic, so therefore, not all supernatural powers are magic"?

    I'm afraid that conclusion does not follow the premise. At all.
    Yes it does. If magic is a distinct thing in WoD, then not all that is supernatural is magic. How does that not work?
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    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    I am so bad atpledgecrafting I think any advice would actually be detrimental. My attempts so far have led to being attacked with a knife, being abandoned in the hedge after having a favor extorted out of me, and I'm currently recovering from being tossed into a mosh pit of zombies by a Minotaur after trying to help him up.

    Meanwhile my motley mate tricked said Minotaur into a pledge that entirely skewed a fight in her favor. It's insane.

    If you mean the prose, I skimmed it because I was busy. I could look again? And your inbox is full
    As I recall, the first one was due to some weirdness in the way a contract was written, wasn't it? (And it probably doesn't help that your ST is a lawyer when you're trying to come up with magically binding agreements in which they can't find loopholes.)

    In any case, though, if you want to take another look, I certainly wouldn't object. My opinion is skewed, so that of others is always nice to have, and what I've seen of your writing has certainly been good enough for me to respect your thoughts on such matters.

    Also, my inbox should be cleared out within five minutes of this post, depending on how long my current computer takes to load the proper pages.

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    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to CeSlebrate!

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    Yes it does. If magic is a distinct thing in WoD, then not all that is supernatural is magic. How does that not work?
    I think I see the disconnect. You're using "magic" as a noun, as in "things that are literally magic, both in nature and in means." Yuki is using "magic" as an adjective, as in "things that are magical or otherwise supernatural."

    In the WoD, there is magic, the noun, as practiced by mages, certain vampires, and a few other groups. There are also magical things, that is, every single supernatural thing in the WoD.

    What was the original question that spawned this debate, again?
    Quote Originally Posted by CN the Logos View Post
    They're just there, and horribly fatal when one stumbles across them, like self-aware landmines.

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    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

    Your ST is actually a lawyer? No offense, but unless you're making contracts with lawyers IC, you should probably tell him to cool his heels a little. I'm trying to imagine something less fun than trying to make Pledges with an adversarial GM or player who has actual legal training, and it's not occuring to me (I'm counting the legal training, that can be a blast if it's your thing)

    Sophistry. Hundred foot mountain of muscle that isn't half-ephemeral substance able to condense down to human form and walk between dimensions.
    'sophistry', much like ignoring the salient point; That 'supernatural' is a term that ultimately lacks meaning.

    Being a law of reality doesn't make something natural when it is an explicit point that several game splats can arbitrarily enforce their whims as law of reality.
    True Fae and Changelings explicitly are forming contracts with unrecognized entities, and those contracts still operate under established laws; they're not just alterable whenever. Mages are explicitly operating on the laws of 'higher realities'. What'd you have in mind when you said this, exactly?

    Plenty of people in the world around you would disagree.
    And? People will disagree that the world is an oblate spheroid, because they allege that it is flat.
    Last edited by RPGuru1331; 2012-12-10 at 06:08 PM.
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    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

    Quote Originally Posted by RPGuru1331 View Post
    Mages are explicitly operating on the laws of 'higher realities'. What'd you have in mind when you said this, exactly?
    Nope. Remember, the context for that argument is oWoD.
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    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

    oWoD mages still have to abide by their own internal belief systems, IIRC. Which, again, is not actually identical to 'whim'.
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    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeivar View Post
    My friend and I were discussing the Fortitude Discipline in Vampire: The Masquerade, and I would appreciate some more opinions.

    We agree that Fortitude is pretty much the least useful Discipline of them all. It's only useful in particular circumstance that a cunning vampire will be able to avoid most of the time.
    We talked a bit about changing it. He suggested Fortitude dots would count as automatic soak successes against non-aggravated damage. Later I got the idea that each dot would count as two extra die for soaking, either all damage or just non-aggravated.

    Have anyone tried making changes to Fortitude and come up with something that wasn't too overpowered?
    Automatic soak is too strong. We modified it as follows:
    First dot: No change. First dot is already useful since it gives you a roll to soak aggravated damage which means you can also spend the willpower on the soak.
    All other dots: Extra health level in addition to giving the normal extra soak dice.
    Second and Fifth dots also reduce wound penalties by 1 each.

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    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

    Quote Originally Posted by RPGuru1331 View Post
    Your ST is actually a lawyer? No offense, but unless you're making contracts with lawyers IC, you should probably tell him to cool his heels a little. I'm trying to imagine something less fun than trying to make Pledges with an adversarial GM or player who has actual legal training, and it's not occuring to me (I'm counting the legal training, that can be a blast if it's your thing)
    Mm. Jumping the gun; he's one of the nicest, most on-the-level human beings I've known. The statement was hyperbole on my part to show through exaggeration exactly how bad I am.

    I also forgot you were reading that >_>;

    'sophistry', much like ignoring the salient point; That 'supernatural' is a term that ultimately lacks meaning.
    No, see, your statement ignores context, whereas mine points that out through comparison. The definition of supernatural in the game doesn't need to be explicit to be valid.

    True Fae and Changelings explicitly are forming contracts with unrecognized entities,
    Which is explicitly called out as not operating under natural laws. Point for me.
    Your changing the subject like that is cute but I understand how badinage works. An unalterable law is not by default a natural law. Law =! Natural law. An oath isn't natural. To a changeling it's still law. There is also the difference between the natural world and the shadow world; look, shadow isn't natural so it's laws aren't natural laws.

    Mages are explicitly operating on the laws of 'higher realities'.
    Which are also not natural laws, since the fallen world being natural and the higher world being something else is the point of the setting.

    Point for me, again.


    And? People will disagree that the world is an oblate spheroid, because they allege that it is flat.
    The world is provably such. Demonstrate incontrovertible proof that spirituality is bunkum and that you aren't just being difficult, please.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urpriest View Post
    Nope. Remember, the context for that argument is oWoD.
    Contextual shift, I thought? The original was about oWoD but the evolution carried it elsewhere. Ah well.

    I'll check that pledge ASAP C'nor. On break at work right now.

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    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

    Sort of reading it. I keep losing the threads, so the last part I actually read was when you were doing all of that stuff with Rose's fetch. (And the bit about him being a lawyer was mainly a joke, yeah. I thought I put a little '' after it, but it seems I was mistaken...)

    And that sounds good. I'm not doing anything with it in Dark Corners, and the other game I'd be playing hasn't started yet, so no rush.

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    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

    Quote Originally Posted by RPGuru1331 View Post
    If 'Short and for older audiences' isn't supposed to just mean 'older dudes', Madoka is difficult to ignore as a high-quality magical girl anime, and it's referenced in the Princess book itself (And it is entirely normal to have enjoyed Sailor Moon, Cardcaptor Sakura, and the like, and then gone on to enjoy Madoka, so I don't understand why one would recommend 'never showing it'). At least one of the Pretty Cures is meant for kids, but solidly executed enough to be enjoyable as an adult regardless, as well, but I can't seem to remember which offhand. I do think, however, that straight up Sailor Moon should certainly be manageable for a season, although perhaps not the dub. And not to put too fine a point on it, at least one season of My Little Pony may also be useful as well, and likely tolerable. The simple fact is, you really want to look at at least one season of something original and seminal, if only to contrast it to other, newer things. It'll also give you more of a frame of reference for your girlfriend discussing the matter, especially if you pick Sailor Moon and maybe Card Captor Sakura.

    The Princess .pdf and e-pub both key to the wiki; the 'creative differences' version appears to be dead, which is a pity I suppose. The difference between .pdf and e-pub is that one of them has the hoster's actual house rules (Rather than the fork that appeared to happen due to drama). I don't know which is which yet, and I don't know the differences either. It's a fansplat though, so it's got some issues, and is unclear at points, some of which I occasionally have to wrangle out of the creators. It's also an ongoing project. Mind that the game's theme is exhaustion by default, not failure nor misery. Succeeding and bringing hope is meant to be hard and draining, but not generally impossible.

    Edits: Probably late, but hey, never hurts to have the information up for the dude working on Princess. And *Yoink* Thanks folks playing a cross-fansplat game, your math will be used in place of my laziness in future nWoD games I run.
    Thanks for the info and the recommendation, although I've watched Madoka once since my last post and am now watching it again with the aforementioned girlfriend. As for Sailor Moon, she has the complete manga, so I may take a look at that.

    I don't know why someone would be concerned that a lady who enjoys the World of Darkness of all things wouldn't like a dark anime. Probably the same line of thinking that prompted someone at the local gaming store to suggest I get her into 40k by showing her the Eldar, since "women like pretty things, and the Eldar are pretty."

    I've actually been considering just slightly modifying an official splat to fit the sort of story she wants to RP. Changeling might work, as I've already come up with alternate fluff that reduces the Gentry to a background element rather than an obligatory part of every character's backstory, although what I've read of Changeling uses more subtle magical effects (fewer swords, lasers, and BFGs), at least at lower XP levels. I haven't looked at all of Changeling's sourcebooks though, so I may be missing something.

    Another option is Geist, which does the whole "great power from a bargain with a supernatural entity requires the power's recipient to fight evil things" plot pretty well. It would by necessity focus the game on themes of death and death-related baddies, but that might not be a bad thing.

    Or I might just use the fansplat once I finally get around to reading the thing. Anyone have any thoughts?

  14. - Top - End - #494
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    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

    Mm. Jumping the gun; he's one of the nicest, most on-the-level human beings I've known. The statement was hyperbole on my part to show through exaggeration exactly how bad I am.
    Ah. Apologies, then.

    No, see, your statement ignores context, whereas mine points that out through comparison. The definition of supernatural in the game doesn't need to be explicit to be valid.
    A definition not only needs to be explicit, but self-consistent, to be valid. So no.

    Which is explicitly called out as not operating under natural laws. Point for me.
    If it happens in the 'real world' as a repeatable phenomena, it's a natural law. Talk to an actual scientist at some point, seriously. Just because WW doesn't know how the premise operates doesn't mean it operates like they think it does. Within the confines of the nWoD, Fae Contracts are as much a part of natural law as gravity.

    Which are also not natural laws, since the fallen world being natural and the higher world being something else is the point of the setting.
    If it's a repeatable phenomena in the 'real world', it's a natural law; that's why we understand that Earthquakes are a result of plate tectonics and not the anger of Pluto made manifest. Learn how science works. Or just keep declaring points for yourself based on incomplete understanding, it doesn't make a difference to me.

    The world is provably such. Demonstrate incontrovertible proof that spirituality is bunkum and that you aren't just being difficult, please.
    I'll get right on that, right after you prove there isn't a teapot orbiting the earth that is too small for our current telescopes to pick up. There's no evidence for leprechauns, unicorns, vampires, mages, werewolves, or anything else generally referred to as 'supernatural' RL, so there's no reason to believe they exist. Just as there's no evidence towards a flat earth.

    You can have the last word though, mostly I just wanted to respond to this guy!

    @CN The Logos:
    I despise hacks, so I'm not the person to ask about that. I'd rather just run MnM3e than try to make Changeling, Mage, or Geist do something it's not meant to do (Exception: Geist as Persona, but that *is* something it's meant to do, more or less, so meh). Princess is generally solid, and I don't mean to say it isn't, it just does have noticeable problems beyond normal nWoD ones.

    Assuming the terrible editing doesn't make you want to jam a pencil through the designers skulls, it's certainly runnable as-is, though. Regarding Sailor Moon, Manga, anime, doesn't make a difference to me (Though it may to your girlfriend); pick through a volume or two, or a season of it, is my legit recommendation. Whichever it is, you'll have a shared understanding, on some level, and it'll probably help in running the game, hacks or not.
    Last edited by RPGuru1331; 2012-12-14 at 08:57 AM.
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    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

    If it happens in the 'real world' as a repeatable phenomena, it's a natural law. Talk to an actual scientist at some point, seriously. Just because WW doesn't know how the premise operates doesn't mean it operates like they think it does. Within the confines of the nWoD, Fae Contracts are as much a part of natural law as gravity.
    But in Changeling mythos, gravity only exists because someone made a Contract with it (well, with the earth most likely)....*headasplode*

    Or maybe that's only in Arcadia. I can never remember if it's implied that our own world is also a huge mess of magical contracts, with the whole ability of Changelings to make them even after they leave Arcadia.

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    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

    Quote Originally Posted by RPGuru1331 View Post
    @CN The Logos:
    I despise hacks, so I'm not the person to ask about that. I'd rather just run MnM3e than try to make Changeling, Mage, or Geist do something it's not meant to do
    Who's talking about a system hack? The extent of the mechanical changes would be modifications to the sins against Clarity/Synergy. Geist wouldn't even really have any fluff changes; lucid, cooperative geists exist, and "defends the world of the living against things that should not be" is totally a character archetype for Sin-Eaters.

    As for Changeling, I like Changeling's system. It's a pretty good rules-lite summary of the mythological Fair Folk. Unfortunately, the people writing it thought it would be a good idea to require every player character to be a (usually metaphorical, sometimes literal) rape victim as part of their backstory. Also, the rapists are gods because man, having the threat of the Antediluvians hanging over chronicles like the Sword of Damocles was what made Vampire: The Masquerade great, but what that game really needed was to have every PC raped by one of them as backstory.

    Ugh, pay me no mind. I'm mostly just bitter because Changeling is pretty much perfect as a system for the Neverwhere setting, but the standard response given to any suggested refluffing of any White Wolf game for any reason has convinced me that this game will never happen, and it fills my heart with sadness.

    I do intend to get and learn M&M at some point, but I don't want to be dependent on an SRD right now, I can't afford a hard copy at the moment, and the lady's only played a d20 system for two short sessions several years ago, which left her with an unfavorable impression. So for better or worse, this thing's going to be using the Storytelling system.

    (Exception: Geist as Persona, but that *is* something it's meant to do, more or less, so meh).
    Okay... As suggested above, I'm totally cool with altering fluff, and I've heard this suggested before. Multiple times, in fact. But I cannot for the life of me see why people think so. The Key/Manifestation mechanics have only the vaguest resemblance to Persona-based abilities. A disproportionate number of the Manifestations (and pretty much all of the standard Bound abilities and Ceremonies) involve death or dead people. Also, Persona games generally end with the player character(s) punching a god(dess) in the face, which is not generally a thing that happens in NWoD outside of Mage or ST fiat. Other than the fact that the source of player character magic is an entity bound to the PC who might resemble a mythological figure, I don't see why people would want to use Geist for Persona.

    Note that I will never say that someone else's idea of a good RPG is badwrongfun (unless it's something like FATAL, FATAL is badwrongfun), and my personal opinions are exactly that. I'm just legitimately curious as to why you think a dark(ish) superheroine powered by an ancient shade with an axe to grind ALLY OF JUSTICE needs a new system, but that Geist was meant to run Persona games.

    Princess is generally solid, and I don't mean to say it isn't, it just does have noticeable problems beyond normal nWoD ones.

    Assuming the terrible editing doesn't make you want to jam a pencil through the designers skulls, it's certainly runnable as-is, though. Regarding Sailor Moon, Manga, anime, doesn't make a difference to me (Though it may to your girlfriend); pick through a volume or two, or a season of it, is my legit recommendation. Whichever it is, you'll have a shared understanding, on some level, and it'll probably help in running the game, hacks or not.
    Yeah, I'm going to have to finish reading it before I make any decisions on what I'm going to use. But that is reassuring; I mean, I don't expect perfection from my homebrew splats, just a rough sense of balance and coherence. If it's good at emulating the stories it's based on, that's all I can really ask for. Thanks for your advice.

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    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

    I don't think you're giving Changeling enough credit...True Fae aren't really analogous to Antideluvians, more like a 4th or 5th Gen against neonates. True Fae can be beaten, they can even be killed, you just can't do it by punching them in the face. For all the suffering Changelings had to go through, there's a chance they can get vengeance, if not on their tormentor specifically than another True Fae who did the same thing to other people.

    Antediluvians were plot devices on legs.

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    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

    Quote Originally Posted by CN the Logos View Post
    Who's talking about a system hack? The extent of the mechanical changes would be modifications to the sins against Clarity/Synergy. Geist wouldn't even really have any fluff changes; lucid, cooperative geists exist, and "defends the world of the living against things that should not be" is totally a character archetype for Sin-Eaters.
    I keep underselling the legitimate versatility of geists in setting, at least, thanks for the reminder.

    Ugh, pay me no mind. I'm mostly just bitter because Changeling is pretty much perfect as a system for the Neverwhere setting, but the standard response given to any suggested refluffing of any White Wolf game for any reason has convinced me that this game will never happen, and it fills my heart with sadness.
    Huh. After the number of times I've seen "Just use mage/geist" on the WW forums for almost any concept you could imagine, I would think the standard response to actually refluffing splats would be more positive.



    Okay... As suggested above, I'm totally cool with altering fluff, and I've heard this suggested before. Multiple times, in fact. But I cannot for the life of me see why people think so. The Key/Manifestation mechanics have only the vaguest resemblance to Persona-based abilities. A disproportionate number of the Manifestations (and pretty much all of the standard Bound abilities and Ceremonies) involve death or dead people. Also, Persona games generally end with the player character(s) punching a god(dess) in the face, which is not generally a thing that happens in NWoD outside of Mage or ST fiat.
    I'll grant I haven't read the extra books, but what about the Neverborn-lite that may exist at the bottom of the Underworld?

    Other than the fact that the source of player character magic is an entity bound to the PC who might resemble a mythological figure, I don't see why people would want to use Geist for Persona.
    That's a pretty big one though!

    Yeah, I'm going to have to finish reading it before I make any decisions on what I'm going to use. But that is reassuring; I mean, I don't expect perfection from my homebrew splats, just a rough sense of balance and coherence. If it's good at emulating the stories it's based on, that's all I can really ask for. Thanks for your advice.
    And I am serious about reading or watching some of the older magical girl stuff. Aside from plausibly being a fun activity with your girlfriend, it'll probably be instructive.

    Oh wait, there was one other complaint I had with Princess. There's points that are so weeaboo that I almost wept. I'm not exactly unsympathetic to weeaboo-ness, but everyone's got a limit, yanno?
    Last edited by RPGuru1331; 2012-12-14 at 11:48 AM.
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    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    But in Changeling mythos, gravity only exists because someone made a Contract with it (well, with the earth most likely)....*headasplode*

    Or maybe that's only in Arcadia. I can never remember if it's implied that our own world is also a huge mess of magical contracts, with the whole ability of Changelings to make them even after they leave Arcadia.
    There are plenty of Contracts flying around, but no, our world isn't entirely reliant on them, or at least that's what I've gleaned in going back and forth through pretty much the whole book recently.

    Or at least, it doesn't have to be. One could run it that way, of course, but there's nothing that states that it is, and it's reasonably heavily implied that our world is as normal as things ever get with the Word of Darkness.

    Quote Originally Posted by CN the Logos View Post
    Ugh, pay me no mind. I'm mostly just bitter because Changeling is pretty much perfect as a system for the Neverwhere setting, but the standard response given to any suggested refluffing of any White Wolf game for any reason has convinced me that this game will never happen, and it fills my heart with sadness.
    You are evil for planting that concept in my head when it's probably never going to be run, you know that?

    Anyway. While most Durances are pretty much horrible, awful, experiences, they don't necessarily have to be. To take two examples from A Gathering of Mists, one of the characters was basically starring in action movies all the time while she was in Arcadia, but abandoned her sister to do so, and came back because she realized that being without her responsibilities didn't mean they'd stopped existing. Another was taken and dropped in a forest, where she got to be a hero every day, only wanting to come back when it was revealed that the whole thing was essentially a very popular Arcadian TV show. They're both just as effective as the two with more traditional Durances.

    (Please bear in mind this is all gathered from reading about them. I am not playing in the game in question. But most of it is taken from reading the OOC explanations by the players of the pair in question, so it should be pretty accurate, I think.)

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    Indeed. One of my favorite examples when explaining to people that Durances aren't necessarily horrible psychic/physical rapefests lasting thousands of years is what I call the Crazy Cat Lady Fae.

    Fae have to embody stories, images, ideas, that sort of thing. This one embodies the classic crazy cat lady, and of course she needs cats. So she finds humans who act a bit like a kitten at times, steals them away, and transforms them into one of her beloved cats. She dotes on her pets obsessively, gives them treats, pets them, loves them.

    One day, though, one of her cats gets outside by accident and wanders away, getting lost in the forest. As it blunders through the Hedge, it starts to remember the person it used to be, and turn back into that person. Eventually they find their way to the real world...but Arcadia changes people. They have cat ears, whiskers, and patches of fur on their skin. They've forgotten how to speak, and need to re-learn language. They prefer to lick themselves clean rather than take baths or showers. And they're always watching out, because their Keeper might come looking for them, and woe betide anyone who gets between her and her beloved kitty...
    Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2012-12-14 at 08:01 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    I don't think you're giving Changeling enough credit...True Fae aren't really analogous to Antideluvians, more like a 4th or 5th Gen against neonates. True Fae can be beaten, they can even be killed, you just can't do it by punching them in the face. For all the suffering Changelings had to go through, there's a chance they can get vengeance, if not on their tormentor specifically than another True Fae who did the same thing to other people.

    Antediluvians were plot devices on legs.
    I've heard the whole "Changeling isn't that horribly oppressive because the True Fae are theoretically killable" argument before. I don't buy it. While the Gentry may not be literally omnipotent, they're functionally omnipotent, which is the same thing from a practical perspective. Statwise, one particular dying True Fae happens to be the strongest thing given stats in the whole NWoD. Unless they come to you for whatever reason, you have to go to their domains in Arcadia and pray you've found the exploitable ST fiat weakness that allows you to survive the trip, let alone do any damage to one of them. If you manage to actually defeat one, well, they can all return from the dead one to four times, so here's hoping you can consistently repeat that feat. And if you do finally succeed in destroying all of one's titles and its true name, sending it screaming to that one place in the underworld that dead True Fae are implied to go, congratulations, the Gentry are practically limitless in number, and every single one of them is as psychopathic as the last.

    Any sort of meaningful victory against the monsters that the entirety of Changeling's fluff revolves around is only possible via ST fiat. Which is fine on occasion; sometimes the PCs end up in a fight with Giygas for whatever reason and their only option is to select "Pray" and hope for the best. But the True Fae are involved in every single character's backstory. And while you can say "oh, this particular Durance wasn't so bad," the default backstory is soul-shattering trauma. After all, if the Durance wasn't bad, you have to come up with a reason why the character left it at all.

    But debates as to how killable the Gentry are aside, the main problems I have with them are that they don't really correspond to the fae of legend, and that they are personally involved with every PC's backstory. It's mostly the second, really. I mean, I'm cool with shamanic werewolf sentai teams, dead bodies reanimated by alchemy/Jewish mysticism/mad science, and Geist: Name of an Obscure Custom to Hopefully Distract You From the Fact That We Just Stole the Premise of The Crow and Called it a Day. I just don't want to have to address the issue of Faethulhu for every major character in every game I think would benefit from having a few creepy elves. The Antediluvians were plot devices on legs, yes, but they weren't personally involved with every single player character.

    Quote Originally Posted by RPGuru1331 View Post
    I keep underselling the legitimate versatility of geists in setting, at least, thanks for the reminder.
    You're welcome. Geist needs more love.

    Huh. After the number of times I've seen "Just use mage/geist" on the WW forums for almost any concept you could imagine, I would think the standard response to actually refluffing splats would be more positive.
    The responses I've gotten here (and elsewhere, but this is the forum I'm most active in) more or less amount to either "you just don't understand the fluff, here, let me explain in great detail why this thing you dislike is actually awesome, because it is inconceivable that you could have actually read the books yourself and still disagree with me" or "White Wolf has no redeeming aspects other than fluff, so why are you here at all if you don't like every aspect of the fluff?" It's tiresome, and I have no idea why I keep kicking that particular hornet's nest. I certainly don't enjoy the debate.

    I'll grant I haven't read the extra books, but what about the Neverborn-lite that may exist at the bottom of the Underworld?
    ...Yes? That's the thing. NWoD assumes that you aren't going to try to punch Leviathan in the face, and that if you do, the power of friendship isn't going to help you much. Earning a happy ending by preventing the evil ritual or whatnot from being used to allow it to leave the Sea of Fragments and haunt the living world? Yeah, sure. Direct face punching, not so much. Persona games, on the other hand, generally end with the main characters defeating gods in single combat with the combined powers of friendship and gratuitous mythology references. Both types of story have their merits, but there's a subtle difference in tone and expected outcome(s) there.

    That's a pretty big one though!
    Fair enough.

    And I am serious about reading or watching some of the older magical girl stuff. Aside from plausibly being a fun activity with your girlfriend, it'll probably be instructive.
    She's suggesting the live-action Sailor Moon series and/or Rayearth. So... we'll see how that goes.

    Oh wait, there was one other complaint I had with Princess. There's points that are so weeaboo that I almost wept. I'm not exactly unsympathetic to weeaboo-ness, but everyone's got a limit, yanno?
    "Did someone just say weeaboo?"

    But seriously, given the subject matter, I expected as much. I'd be shocked if there wasn't a bunch of gratuitous Japanese terminology, honestly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CN the Logos View Post
    I've heard the whole "Changeling isn't that horribly oppressive because the True Fae are theoretically killable" argument before. I don't buy it.
    It doesn't make the game any less oppressive. I'm just saying there is a glimmer of hope in the darkness...and of course it's difficult as hell, you're murdering a demigod. Beating a Fae should be the end of an entire chronicle, likely with multiple PC deaths along the way. You might not get the one you wanted, the guy you're getting vengeance for is probably dead, and there are an infinite number of Gentry left that you'll never be able to kill...but that's the whole point of WoD. You'll never make serious, lasting change, but you can have small victories if you're willing to pay the Phyrric price.

    But you can do it. And unlike the Antediluvians, not only are they actually killable (if barely), they are, as you said, directly tied to the characters. That makes it personal. Any sort of victory against anything is ultimately ST fiat, the True Fae are no different.


    And C'mon...dissing Geist? There are eight different archetypes to pick from, only one is The Crow. You don't see Eric using his magical ghost powers to scam people out of sports cars.
    Geist is the best game ever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CN the Logos View Post
    I've heard the whole "Changeling isn't that horribly oppressive because the True Fae are theoretically killable" argument before. I don't buy it. While the Gentry may not be literally omnipotent, they're functionally omnipotent, which is the same thing from a practical perspective. Statwise, one particular dying True Fae happens to be the strongest thing given stats in the whole NWoD. Unless they come to you for whatever reason, you have to go to their domains in Arcadia and pray you've found the exploitable ST fiat weakness that allows you to survive the trip, let alone do any damage to one of them. If you manage to actually defeat one, well, they can all return from the dead one to four times, so here's hoping you can consistently repeat that feat. And if you do finally succeed in destroying all of one's titles and its true name, sending it screaming to that one place in the underworld that dead True Fae are implied to go, congratulations, the Gentry are practically limitless in number, and every single one of them is as psychopathic as the last.
    But by that argument its no victory for, say, a Vampire to kill a Werewolf ( to use an OWoD set) as there are always more of them and most of them want to kill you. I can't think of any game where defeating one of them is going to mean you're never bothered again by the entire race.


    But the True Fae are involved in every single character's backstory. And while you can say "oh, this particular Durance wasn't so bad," the default backstory is soul-shattering trauma. After all, if the Durance wasn't bad, you have to come up with a reason why the character left it at all.
    True but it can only be their backstory. They don't have to ever show up in person again.
    And there are plenty of reasons why somebody would want to leave the alien world where he was kidnapped to to return to the world where his friends and family are even if his Durance wasn't particularly awful.
    I always assumed Durance's don't always have to be mind shatteringly horrible or there wouldn't be Loyalists (though know I think of it Loyalists could just be operating on the grounds its better to serve as torturer than be the tortured)
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    ...Yes? That's the thing. NWoD assumes that you aren't going to try to punch Leviathan in the face, and that if you do, the power of friendship isn't going to help you much.
    Not gonna lie, I've been playing WoD wrong my whole life, so there's a bit of a difference in perspective. Horror's not really my thing. An astute reader may question why I would bother given that...

    Persona games, on the other hand, generally end with the main characters defeating gods in single combat with the combined powers of friendship and gratuitous mythology references. Both types of story have their merits, but there's a subtle difference in tone and expected outcome(s) there.
    In fairness, Nyarlathotep was beaten three times in a row through straight up violence, not the power of friendship.... :D

    She's suggesting the live-action Sailor Moon series and/or Rayearth. So... we'll see how that goes.
    Huh. Keep forgetting to see Rayearth. Hope you enjoy, regardless!
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    It doesn't make the game any less oppressive. I'm just saying there is a glimmer of hope in the darkness...and of course it's difficult as hell, you're murdering a demigod. Beating a Fae should be the end of an entire chronicle, likely with multiple PC deaths along the way. You might not get the one you wanted, the guy you're getting vengeance for is probably dead, and there are an infinite number of Gentry left that you'll never be able to kill...but that's the whole point of WoD. You'll never make serious, lasting change, but you can have small victories if you're willing to pay the Phyrric price.

    But you can do it. And unlike the Antediluvians, not only are they actually killable (if barely), they are, as you said, directly tied to the characters. That makes it personal. Any sort of victory against anything is ultimately ST fiat, the True Fae are no different.
    As I've mentioned before and will probably end up mentioning again (at length, in text-wall form, because I do that), it's not just that the True Fae are fiat bosses that bothers me. It's the combination of them being fiat bosses, the fact that they're involved in everyone's backstory, and that Changelings already work as the mythical fair folk without the need for cosmic horrors everywhere.

    But really, when I think about it, the big thing, the thing I can't get past, is that I find the idea of a society consisting almost entirely of rape victims who got superpowers from surviving the experience really creepy. Not good "we're playing a horror game" creepy. Just regular, uncomfortable, "I don't want to be here anymore" creepy. I know there's no accounting for taste, and I'm not saying people who do like Changeling as written are wrong to do so (it's just a game), but no matter now many times people tell me "you don't have to mention it all that often," I'm still going to be creeped out by it.

    And C'mon...dissing Geist? There are eight different archetypes to pick from, only one is The Crow. You don't see Eric using his magical ghost powers to scam people out of sports cars.
    Geist is the best game ever.
    No, no, you've got it all wrong. I love Geist. It's tied with Promethean as my favorite thing White Wolf's ever done. It's an examination of potentially grim subject matter that manages to balance seriousness with lack of wangst. The magic system is powerful and versatile without ascending to the heights of utter ridiculousness possible in other high(er) magic systems (except for Boneyard, Boneyard's broken as hell ). The geists and kerberoi are cool. It's got an interesting take on the classical Underworld. Danny Elfman wrote a kickass soundtrack for it. No wait, that last bit's not official, I forget that sometimes.

    But anyway, while there are many stories about people being possessed by otherworldly entities (ghosts or demons) and many stories about dead people refusing to die when they're killed, I'm only aware of one other story that combines those two folkloric ideas in that way.* Maybe I'm just ignorant and there's an entire subgenre of stories about people coming back to life due to bargains with benign spirit entities, it wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong. But I think Geist is pretty upfront about its sources of inspiration.

    And you know what? Every time I've tried to describe Geist to someone, I've gotten puzzled looks when I try to describe sin-eaters, right up until the point where I give up and say, "you're like The Crow, but you don't have to be a murder victim and you don't have to be looking for revenge on anyone. You could be a formerly homeless guy who froze to death and now works to make sure other people don't go that way, or a ex-businessman who decided life was too short for an office job and went walking the earth after not dying in a plane crash that killed everyone else on the plane. Stuff like that, the sky's the limit as long as it includes a near-death experience at some point. Also you can see and talk to ghosts, and have various other death-themed powers, including opening portals to the land of the dead." Believe it or not, the response to that description is pretty positive. A premise doesn't have to be carved in tablets made of solid originalium by the god of originality to be good, it just has to present its material in a way that makes it stand out positively from the other stories covering the same ground.

    Quote Originally Posted by comicshorse View Post
    But by that argument its no victory for, say, a Vampire to kill a Werewolf ( to use an OWoD set) as there are always more of them and most of them want to kill you. I can't think of any game where defeating one of them is going to mean you're never bothered again by the entire race.
    And other than using it as an occasional source of plot hooks, cool powers, and interesting NPCs (regardless of what system I end up using for the magical girl game, Sascha Vykos is showing up as one of the Dark General-equivalents), I dislike the OWoD. But that aside, werewolves don't have to show up in a Masquerade game. True Fae must show up in a game of Changeling: The Lost, even if it's only as backstory, which leads me to...

    True but it can only be their backstory. They don't have to ever show up in person again.
    But if you're going that route, why have them as required backstory at all? It isn't like Geist, where a good portion of the powers revolve around death and therefore whatever fluff you use needs to involve death as well unless you're using a fairly radical system hack. The contracts, magical oaths, and dream-weaving stuff is all grounded in folklore. So is the idea that the fae are a bit crazy by human standards and thus would have a sanity meter instead of a karma meter. The premise of elves hidden in the modern world could be taken in all sorts of interesting directions, so I'm having difficulty understanding why the response is so negative to me saying that I don't like the "cosmic horror with really creepy rape subtext" that White Wolf decided to go with.

    And there are plenty of reasons why somebody would want to leave the alien world where he was kidnapped to to return to the world where his friends and family are even if his Durance wasn't particularly awful.

    I always assumed Durance's don't always have to be mind shatteringly horrible or there wouldn't be Loyalists (though know I think of it Loyalists could just be operating on the grounds its better to serve as torturer than be the tortured)
    This can be true for individual cases, but seriously, I've read the book. I own the book. The default assumption is soul-shattering trauma.

    Quote Originally Posted by RPGuru1331 View Post
    Not gonna lie, I've been playing WoD wrong my whole life, so there's a bit of a difference in perspective. Horror's not really my thing. An astute reader may question why I would bother given that...
    I'm of the firm opinion that there's no such thing as badwrongfun as long as no one gets hurt. In fact, my girlfriend tells me that when she played Vampire: the Masquerade, she was in it for the vampire superpowers ("SHADOW TENTACLES"). It's just that the Persona games I've played have involved a lot of drawn-out combat which the protagonists typically win without serious injury, whereas NWoD's combat is over in seconds and usually results in serious injury or death for at least one of the parties involved. You could base a NWoD game on Persona, I suppose, but to me it would have a very different feel than the actual Persona series by virtue of the combat alone.

    In fairness, Nyarlathotep was beaten three times in a row through straight up violence, not the power of friendship.... :D
    And as someone who enjoys the work of H. P. Lovecraft, that breaks my heart.



    *Some versions of vampires are demons possessing a corpse, but in those cases it's usually made clear that the original person's either not there at all any more, or unable to act while the demon uses the body to terrorize the living. Nothing like the geist/bound symbiosis as far as I know.
    Last edited by CN the Logos; 2012-12-15 at 03:19 PM.

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    I'm of the firm opinion that there's no such thing as badwrongfun as long as no one gets hurt.
    Well, it's not like I have any intention of stopping. But I do acknowledge that what I'm doing with it isn't what most people are doing with it.

    You could base a NWoD game on Persona, I suppose, but to me it would have a very different feel than the actual Persona series by virtue of the combat alone.
    It's not really that different. The only people who really escaped from a tussle without at least one side going down hard are the, uh... the antagonist teenagers in 3. The main difference is the lack of dungeon crawling, which isn't much of a weakness in tabletop to me. Plot encounters in the first three, in particular, with other humans tended to end up with at least one, and generally many, bodies.

    And as someone who enjoys the work of H. P. Lovecraft, that breaks my heart.
    Eeeeexcellent. The disappointment of Lovecraft fans is something I collect in a little vial I keep on my computer desk :D

    Minor side note you may or may not empathize with, and thoroughly off topic, but me and my roommate keep 5 Kyuubey plushies around. The visitor most disturbed by them is the one that is the biggest Mythos fan of them all. I'm not sure why that is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CN the Logos View Post
    But if you're going that route, why have them as required backstory at all?
    Because you need a reason the P.C.s came in contact with Arcadia in the first place. You could have them always be Changelings but that does remove the theme of the Changelings having been normal and then thrust wily-nily into this amazing world and having to adapt to it and find a balance between the two worlds.
    And while you don't have to include them others may like to have more otherworldy gods mixed into their stories

    so I'm having difficulty understanding why the response is so negative to me saying that I don't like the "cosmic horror with really creepy rape subtext" that White Wolf decided to go with.
    Could be cause you keep using the phrase 'creepy rape subtext' which people find kinda creepy

    This can be true for individual cases, but seriously, I've read the book. I own the book. The default assumption is soul-shattering trauma.
    This doesn't really explain the number of Loyalists and Privateers though


    Ugh, pay me no mind. I'm mostly just bitter because Changeling is pretty much perfect as a system for the Neverwhere setting,
    It is and I like this idea. Angel Islington as the trapped gentry manipulating the world for his return to Arcadia and the chance to get even 'with that bastard Gabriel for a start'
    Last edited by comicshorse; 2012-12-15 at 04:27 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CN the Logos View Post
    And you know what? Every time I've tried to describe Geist to someone, I've gotten puzzled looks when I try to describe sin-eaters, right up until the point where I give up and say, "you're like The Crow, but you don't have to be a murder victim and you don't have to be looking for revenge on anyone. You could be a formerly homeless guy who froze to death and now works to make sure other people don't go that way, or a ex-businessman who decided life was too short for an office job and went walking the earth after not dying in a plane crash that killed everyone else on the plane. Stuff like that, the sky's the limit as long as it includes a near-death experience at some point. Also you can see and talk to ghosts, and have various other death-themed powers, including opening portals to the land of the dead." Believe it or not, the response to that description is pretty positive. A premise doesn't have to be carved in tablets made of solid originalium by the god of originality to be good, it just has to present its material in a way that makes it stand out positively from the other stories covering the same ground.
    Huh. I just say 'you're like Ghostbusters, except you bust ghosts with magical powers and you're allowed to abuse your magic for personal benefit whenever you want.' That seems to get the point across.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RPGuru1331 View Post
    It's not really that different. The only people who really escaped from a tussle without at least one side going down hard are the, uh... the antagonist teenagers in 3. The main difference is the lack of dungeon crawling, which isn't much of a weakness in tabletop to me. Plot encounters in the first three, in particular, with other humans tended to end up with at least one, and generally many, bodies.
    Point taken.

    Minor side note you may or may not empathize with, and thoroughly off topic, but me and my roommate keep 5 Kyuubey plushies around. The visitor most disturbed by them is the one that is the biggest Mythos fan of them all. I'm not sure why that is.
    Heh, Kyubey's awesome. It's especially hilarious if you've ever had a class in marketing, because you can pick out every sleazy sales technique he uses. I think he does everything short of offering them another wish if they'll wish within the next ten minutes.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Huh. I just say 'you're like Ghostbusters, except you bust ghosts with magical powers and you're allowed to abuse your magic for personal benefit whenever you want.' That seems to get the point across.
    Honestly, if we're using movie comparisons either way I prefer The Crow, but that's a matter of taste.

    Incidentally, oh Great Modthulhu, if you ever see me mention Changeling or Mage on this forum again, please ban me for my own good. Every time I come to this thread, I tell myself I'm only going to say constructive things about the games I like, but then I say something without thinking (in this case a two sentence aside, which I immediately mocked as me just being bitter about a game idea that will never be used), and much nerdrage is incited and I end up burning precious hours of my life. I need an incentive to stop typing before I get started.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CN the Logos View Post
    Point taken.
    Mind, I don't mean solely /dead/ bodies, but they don't really need to be in nWoD either.



    Heh, Kyubey's awesome. It's especially hilarious if you've ever had a class in marketing, because you can pick out every sleazy sales technique he uses. I think he does everything short of offering them another wish if they'll wish within the next ten minutes.
    From that perspective, the contract itself is basically 'whatever you wish for, in just 600 easy payments of 99.99.99... spectacular XD


    Incidentally, oh Great Modthulhu, if you ever see me mention Changeling or Mage on this forum again, please ban me for my own good. Every time I come to this thread, I tell myself I'm only going to say constructive things about the games I like, but then I say something without thinking (in this case a two sentence aside, which I immediately mocked as me just being bitter about a game idea that will never be used), and much nerdrage is incited and I end up burning precious hours of my life. I need an incentive to stop typing before I get started.
    Well, for what it's worth, I actually consider it useful food for thought for another game I'm considering running wherein Changelings are involved. It gives me pause that a slight change of wording (from 'abuse' to 'rape') fires off a defensive nerd instinct or two, and the fact is, I consider your perception on that entirely legitimate. I'll be looking at other alternate durances like someone posted upthread as well, and considering some of my own. I just didn't really have a lot to meaningfully add aside from that, but since you seemt o be acting like it was entirely useless, well, not 100% so at least! :D
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