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  1. - Top - End - #931
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    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

    We know what happens to certain creatures at when their power stat hits 0. Mummies return to duat, prometheans stay dead (functionally, anyway, unless I'm misunderstanding how their resurrections work). Changelings are able to voluntarily reduce their Wyrd, but it doesn't specify if it can hit 0 this way, or what would happen if a changeling did that. Vampire blood potency decreases while in torpor, but explicitly never hits 0. Werewolves and sin-eaters cannot (as far as I recall) reduce their power stats, barring the same erosion that hits everyone at Power Stat 6+.

    All that said, we do have some precedent for Power Stat 0 supernaturals. Many of the things in Night Horrors: the Wicked Dead have BP 0. They are terrified of proper vampires, have very limited vitae reserves, can only spend 1 vitae/round, and I think there were some other rules about them that I can't remember right now. But that's a starting point, if you wanted to run a story where the characters are in danger of having their power stats reduced to 0 and need rules for it.
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    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

    Oh, neat. The compilation of all that passed me by.

  3. - Top - End - #933
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    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

    The creatures in Wicked Dead are more like BP 1/2 as far as rules go, though, rather than actual BP0 - things that are vampire-like, but not actual vampires, and WoD can't roll fractions of dice. It's better than nothing, but still rather awkward.

  4. - Top - End - #934
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    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

    Still, it provides a starting point if you need to make rules for what happens if a character's power stat is dropped to that level somehow.
    Quote Originally Posted by CN the Logos View Post
    They're just there, and horribly fatal when one stumbles across them, like self-aware landmines.

  5. - Top - End - #935
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToySoldierCPlus View Post
    All that said, we do have some precedent for Power Stat 0 supernaturals. Many of the things in Night Horrors: the Wicked Dead have BP 0. They are terrified of proper vampires, have very limited vitae reserves, can only spend 1 vitae/round, and I think there were some other rules about them that I can't remember right now. But that's a starting point, if you wanted to run a story where the characters are in danger of having their power stats reduced to 0 and need rules for it.
    Ah, cool. I'd always assumed they'd either die or become a regular human with a few odd quirks.

  6. - Top - End - #936
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    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

    Quote Originally Posted by ToySoldierCPlus View Post
    Changelings are able to voluntarily reduce their Wyrd, but it doesn't specify if it can hit 0 this way, or what would happen if a changeling did that.
    IIRC, a changeling can in fact buy their Wyrd down to 0, and if they simultaneously get their Clarity up to 10 they become mortals.
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    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

    Does it have to be truly simultaneous, or just the the two states must at some point overlap?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sith_Happens View Post
    IIRC, a changeling can in fact buy their Wyrd down to 0, and if they simultaneously get their Clarity up to 10 they become mortals.
    What book would that be? The closest thing I've seen is reversing fetch absorption.

  9. - Top - End - #939
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    What book would that be? The closest thing I've seen is reversing fetch absorption.
    My question is, why would any changeling want to do that? Dropping Wyrd I get; it generates some pretty severe drawbacks as it increases. But becoming mortal again? When the True Fae are still out there? When your motley and court need you? When there is still so much to experience, both in the mortal world, in dreams, and in the Hedge?
    Quote Originally Posted by CN the Logos View Post
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  10. - Top - End - #940
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToySoldierCPlus View Post
    My question is, why would any changeling want to do that? Dropping Wyrd I get; it generates some pretty severe drawbacks as it increases. But becoming mortal again? When the True Fae are still out there? When your motley and court need you? When there is still so much to experience, both in the mortal world, in dreams, and in the Hedge?
    Well, some Changelings are concerned that they might be soulless or soul-compromised, right? Might seem like a decent way to get out.
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  11. - Top - End - #941
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    I don't know, I'd be to concerned about the True Fae coming back for me or my loved ones to give up my Wyrd. With the Wyrd, I at least have a chance of doing something to protect myself or them. Without it...
    Quote Originally Posted by CN the Logos View Post
    They're just there, and horribly fatal when one stumbles across them, like self-aware landmines.

  12. - Top - End - #942
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToySoldierCPlus View Post
    I don't know, I'd be to concerned about the True Fae coming back for me or my loved ones to give up my Wyrd. With the Wyrd, I at least have a chance of doing something to protect myself or them. Without it...
    You're obviously not Winter Court, then. I can see the option of returning to their normal lives completely normal after assimilating their fetch being an attractive option for many new Winter Court members.
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  13. - Top - End - #943
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMofDarkness View Post
    You're obviously not Winter Court, then. I can see the option of returning to their normal lives completely normal after assimilating their fetch being an attractive option for many new Winter Court members.
    Guilty. Autumn Court through and through. No way I could live with the knowledge that magic exists, that I once had magic, and gave it up, no way I could give it up.

    I wonder what the other seasons would think about giving up their Wyrd? Summer would probably be opposed, on grounds of needing to be able to defend oneself from the True Fae should the need arise, and the Wyrd can help with that, Autumn would be opposed due to the fact that it's part of the court's charter to study and understand Fae magic; you don't become a member of the Autumn Court without a healthy dose of curiosity about this stuff. I'm not sure about Spring, though. They're all about desire and living life to the fullest, and magic can both help and hinder that, so... I don't know.
    Quote Originally Posted by CN the Logos View Post
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  14. - Top - End - #944
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    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

    Spring would depend a lot on personal preference, I think. Can your desires be better met as a Changeling? Then stay, and fill them all! On the other hand, if you have to be a mortal to fulfill them, then farewell, and may you receive all you desire (so long as that doesn't interfere with what I desire)!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMofDarkness View Post
    You're obviously not Winter Court, then. I can see the option of returning to their normal lives completely normal after assimilating their fetch being an attractive option for many new Winter Court members.
    Oh, no. No. Assimilating your fetch leaves you a changeling, doesn't it? I mean having your fetch assimilate you. The gestalt entity is now complete, and has memories ranging from birth, to current, all mundane. Maybe some changeling memories as hazy dreams. It neatly avoids the "I used to have power" angst.

    Quote Originally Posted by ToySoldierCPlus View Post
    Guilty. Autumn Court through and through. No way I could live with the knowledge that magic exists, that I once had magic, and gave it up, no way I could give it up.

    I wonder what the other seasons would think about giving up their Wyrd? Summer would probably be opposed, on grounds of needing to be able to defend oneself from the True Fae should the need arise, and the Wyrd can help with that, Autumn would be opposed due to the fact that it's part of the court's charter to study and understand Fae magic; you don't become a member of the Autumn Court without a healthy dose of curiosity about this stuff. I'm not sure about Spring, though. They're all about desire and living life to the fullest, and magic can both help and hinder that, so... I don't know.
    you are a fairie. Being a fairie is awesome. You could be all 'wah wah mortality' or 'boo hoo hoo soul', just like you could be all Grrr I'm obssessing over past trauma! But why, when the alternative is being an awesome fairie?

    Boohoo, my grubby dirty mundane childhood was replaced by a terrible, wonderful mind wrenching experience which only serves to prove how bad-ass I am and left me with magic powers, the ability to literally taste beauty and magic powers like dream walking or contractual promises. Oh woah is m—Pffffffffhaaaaaa hahahahahahahaha! I almost said that with a straight face~! Hey, you want some tea? It's made with the essence of Birtish patriotism amongst Indian regulars. It's a kick, especially if you're summer court.

  16. - Top - End - #946
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    Oh, no. No. Assimilating your fetch leaves you a changeling, doesn't it? I mean having your fetch assimilate you. The gestalt entity is now complete, and has memories ranging from birth, to current, all mundane. Maybe some changeling memories as hazy dreams. It neatly avoids the "I used to have power" angst.
    Call me crazy, but I have a feeling most changelings would actively try to avoid this fate. Absorbing their fetches themselves, on the other hand, would probably be fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    you are a fairie. Being a fairie is awesome. You could be all 'wah wah mortality' or 'boo hoo hoo soul', just like you could be all Grrr I'm obssessing over past trauma! But why, when the alternative is being an awesome fairie?

    Boohoo, my grubby dirty mundane childhood was replaced by a terrible, wonderful mind wrenching experience which only serves to prove how bad-ass I am and left me with magic powers, the ability to literally taste beauty and magic powers like dream walking or contractual promises. Oh woah is m—Pffffffffhaaaaaa hahahahahahahaha! I almost said that with a straight face~! Hey, you want some tea? It's made with the essence of Birtish patriotism amongst Indian regulars. It's a kick, especially if you're summer court.
    All of this. All of this is why I would never willingly surrender my Wyrd.
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  17. - Top - End - #947
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    All of this. All of this is why I would never willingly surrender my Wyrd.
    For a PC changeling, this kind of attitude is basically fine. But it lacks a lot of reality on a setting wide scale.

    Arcadian trauma is not about going "Boohoo, something bad happened to me". PTSD is not weakness or whining. Horrific abuse in your past does not normally make you a fabulous and strong person, it normally messes you up. Really seriously.

    So yeah, I can get behind the PC's being the fabulously lucky ones who managed to avoid getting screwed up by what they went through, and drawing it into a learning experience. It makes for a less depressing game. But the majority of Changelings are the equivalent of victims of torture, and domestic abuse. And wanting to step away from the world that led you into that is not a stupid choice.
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    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    you are a fairie. Being a fairie is awesome. You could be all 'wah wah mortality' or 'boo hoo hoo soul', just like you could be all Grrr I'm obssessing over past trauma! But why, when the alternative is being an awesome fairie?
    I have been through some abusive experiences that were extremely traumatic to me. I still suffer from depression and a whole host of other issues. I, and many other people who have suffered mental trauma, have been told that I should "just get over it". That I should just go out into the sun and enjoy my life.

    I should not have to explain how ignorant, insulting, and hurtful this opinion is, but I do.

    Please think about what you say.
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    Quote Originally Posted by C'nor View Post
    Does it have to be truly simultaneous, or just the the two states must at some point overlap?
    The latter.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    What book would that be? The closest thing I've seen is reversing fetch absorption.
    No idea. I don't actually own any Changeling books, I think the rule in question came up in a web search.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Bookworm View Post
    I should not have to explain how ignorant, insulting, and hurtful this opinion is, but I do.

    Please think about what you say.
    Pretty sure SiuiS was making a hypothetical Spring Court quote there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToySoldierCPlus View Post
    Call me crazy, but I have a feeling most changelings would actively try to avoid this fate. Absorbing their fetches themselves, on the other hand, would probably be fine.
    That's the kicker. From an objective view it's probably the best possible choice, but subjectively it's the worst. WoD games all have this passive 'if looke at right, you're the bad guy' thing going for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Selrahc View Post
    For a PC changeling, this kind of attitude is basically fine. But it lacks a lot of reality on a setting wide scale.
    Oh don't mind her, she'll raise her clarity and then the actual horror will reassert itself. Denial by inundating the senses is a coping mechanism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Bookworm View Post
    I have been through some abusive experiences that were extremely traumatic to me. I still suffer from depression and a whole host of other issues. I, and many other people who have suffered mental trauma, have been told that I should "just get over it". That I should just go out into the sun and enjoy my life.

    I should not have to explain how ignorant, insulting, and hurtful this opinion is, but I do.

    Please think about what you say.
    so have I, luv. While I am sorry it upset you, I'm not going to take it back; it's a specific character's opinion and was a valid answer to the question posed. It is not on my part ignorant, nor intentionally insulting. I can only apologize for the hurtful part, and for that I am sorry.

    I am curious though, what makes you ascribe this to me, specifically as an attitude towards abuse? There is a world of difference between 'how would a spring court changeling respond to giving up being Lost' and 'what do you feel about abuse in general'.
    Last edited by SiuiS; 2013-04-16 at 04:09 AM.

  21. - Top - End - #951
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    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

    The thing about becoming a mortal again as a changeling is that it separates you from the Fae who abused you... to a point. Yes, you're normal again and can go back to living like a mortal. But you know that the Fae are out there and you still remember what they did to you. I can imagine a Changeling who decides that you can't really go home again. But I can also imagine a Changeling who would take this option, hoping that you can.
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    Default Re: General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

    You know, there's actually a potentially big argument for losing your fae nature that hasn't been mentioned yet.
    Fertility.
    Well, of course, Changelings can make complicated contracts or try to use rare Goblin Fruits and Tokens... but since there's no such thing in the core book (and, IIRC, only passing mentions in supplements), it's completely up to the ST whether a Changeling will ever be able to have biological children.
    For some, that could be a big game changer. Not all. But some. Just look how many couples IRL are struggling just to have one child that's genetically theirs.
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  23. - Top - End - #953
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    Quote Originally Posted by Musashi View Post
    You know, there's actually a potentially big argument for losing your fae nature that hasn't been mentioned yet.
    Fertility.
    Well, of course, Changelings can make complicated contracts or try to use rare Goblin Fruits and Tokens... but since there's no such thing in the core book (and, IIRC, only passing mentions in supplements), it's completely up to the ST whether a Changeling will ever be able to have biological children.
    For some, that could be a big game changer. Not all. But some. Just look how many couples IRL are struggling just to have one child that's genetically theirs.
    You know, I hadn't thought about that one. It holds more sway with the Spring Court than with any other season, but I can see members of any court hitting that roadblock and struggling with it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Musashi View Post
    You know, there's actually a potentially big argument for losing your fae nature that hasn't been mentioned yet.
    Fertility.
    Well, of course, Changelings can make complicated contracts or try to use rare Goblin Fruits and Tokens... but since there's no such thing in the core book (and, IIRC, only passing mentions in supplements), it's completely up to the ST whether a Changeling will ever be able to have biological children.
    For some, that could be a big game changer. Not all. But some. Just look how many couples IRL are struggling just to have one child that's genetically theirs.
    Yeah. There is one goblin fruit, which says you WILL concieve, no matter what, the next time you have sex, but it si not in the core book, no. And it looks like a huge bakhanded ability, since it just says sex. Cue a gay couple wondering what the heck is going on, especially if one of them doesn't have the equipment needed to whelp. Better find a Chiurgeon!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    so have I, luv. While I am sorry it upset you, I'm not going to take it back; it's a specific character's opinion and was a valid answer to the question posed. It is not on my part ignorant, nor intentionally insulting. I can only apologize for the hurtful part, and for that I am sorry.

    I am curious though, what makes you ascribe this to me, specifically as an attitude towards abuse? There is a world of difference between 'how would a spring court changeling respond to giving up being Lost' and 'what do you feel about abuse in general'.
    Sorry. I did misread your post. It also touched a bit of a nerve with me and I was more than a little emotional yesterday afternoon.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    Yeah. There is one goblin fruit, which says you WILL concieve, no matter what, the next time you have sex, but it si not in the core book, no. And it looks like a huge bakhanded ability, since it just says sex. Cue a gay couple wondering what the heck is going on, especially if one of them doesn't have the equipment needed to whelp. Better find a Chiurgeon!
    Wait, seriously? What if you have sex with, um, something other than a human? Does it produce a hybrid?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MugaSofer View Post
    Wait, seriously? What if you have sex with, um, something other than a human? Does it produce a hybrid?
    OH NO, IT'S GIVEN BIRTH A PRIUS. CURSE YOU, ARCHFEY!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Bookworm View Post
    Sorry. I did misread your post. It also touched a bit of a nerve with me and I was more than a little emotional yesterday afternoon.
    That's fine. I understand how that cna be.

    Quote Originally Posted by MugaSofer View Post
    Wait, seriously? What if you have sex with, um, something other than a human? Does it produce a hybrid?
    The possibilities know no bounds! Go, my young padawan! Eat this magical fruit I told you about without evidence and go forth and be fruitful!

    Quote Originally Posted by WitchSlayer View Post
    OH NO, IT'S GIVEN BIRTH A PRIUS. CURSE YOU, ARCHFEY!
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    Yeah. There is one goblin fruit, which says you WILL concieve, no matter what, the next time you have sex, but it si not in the core book, no. And it looks like a huge bakhanded ability, since it just says sex. Cue a gay couple wondering what the heck is going on, especially if one of them doesn't have the equipment needed to whelp. Better find a Chiurgeon!
    Ah, yes, forgot that one. Like you say, it has more potential to turn disastrous than mundane mundane sex.
    Does it say if the child is going to be at least part fae? Because if they are, that's another argument in favour of becoming human again. If your child is a Changeling, they will attract more attention, have access to dangerous powers, and be essentially partially crazy from birth. It could be very hard to cope with your child seeing things that aren't there just like you do, wandering into the Hedge and potentially never coming back, etc.
    A Changeling child that has never been kidnapped by True Fae is essentially a child with subtle powers and the likeliness to become insane sooner or later. In another universe, they might turn out okay, but this is the World of Darkness. THAT universe is not going to be lax with your child just because they have the potential to be a superhero.
    (Oh, and bonus: if you can't be sure you still have a soul, you can't be sure your child will have one, too. It can be terrifying to contemplate the prospect of intentionally bringing into this world an innocent being without a soul. Ask Prometheans.)
    So yeah. Generally, when you're a Changeling, having a human child is better. So, you might as well become human too, in the process.

    ... I'm wasting too much time thinking about the fertility and offspring of Changelings.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Musashi View Post
    Ah, yes, forgot that one. Like you say, it has more potential to turn disastrous than mundane mundane sex.
    Does it say if the child is going to be at least part fae? Because if they are, that's another argument in favour of becoming human again. If your child is a Changeling, they will attract more attention, have access to dangerous powers, and be essentially partially crazy from birth. It could be very hard to cope with your child seeing things that aren't there just like you do, wandering into the Hedge and potentially never coming back, etc.
    A Changeling child that has never been kidnapped by True Fae is essentially a child with subtle powers and the likeliness to become insane sooner or later. In another universe, they might turn out okay, but this is the World of Darkness. THAT universe is not going to be lax with your child just because they have the potential to be a superhero.
    (Oh, and bonus: if you can't be sure you still have a soul, you can't be sure your child will have one, too. It can be terrifying to contemplate the prospect of intentionally bringing into this world an innocent being without a soul. Ask Prometheans.)
    So yeah. Generally, when you're a Changeling, having a human child is better. So, you might as well become human too, in the process.

    ... I'm wasting too much time thinking about the fertility and offspring of Changelings.
    You're spending more time on it than the rulebooks. The rulebooks just say that the child is automatically human from the Changeling's side; the only odd stuff happens when a Fetch is one of the parents.
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