General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

[Lady Serpentine]

You know, there's actually a potentially big argument for losing your fae nature that hasn't been mentioned yet.
Fertility.
Well, of course, Changelings can make complicated contracts or try to use rare Goblin Fruits and Tokens... but since there's no such thing in the core book (and, IIRC, only passing mentions in supplements), it's completely up to the ST whether a Changeling will ever be able to have biological children.
For some, that could be a big game changer. Not all. But some. Just look how many couples IRL are struggling just to have one child that's genetically theirs.

Personally, as an ST, if one had enough dots of Resources - as this would be a rather specialized procedure, and thus fairly expensive - I'd allow Changelings to take a sample of their DNA, and a sample from the other person, then take them to a lab to be randomly mixed and grown, whether in one of the parents or a surrogate mother.

Of course, that's a personal choice, but magic is certainly not the only potential way around fertility issues for a Changeling.

As for the question of whether the child would have a soul, well... Talk to one of the people who can sense such things after they've been growing for a bit. If the answer is no, you've got seven or eight months to fix it.

[MugaSofer]

As for the question of whether the child would have a soul, well... Talk to one of the people who can sense such things after they've been growing for a bit. If the answer is no, you've got seven or eight months to fix it.

Dear God, the abortion debates that would cause ...

[The Glyphstone]

Aaaaaaaaaand I think that's a good cue to talk about anything completely different.

[Turalisj]

So who thinks a Mummy vs Vampire ancient conspiracies game, starting in the Roman Empire and stretching to modern times would be an awesome game?

[ToySoldierCPlus]

So who thinks a Mummy vs Vampire ancient conspiracies game, starting in the Roman Empire and stretching to modern times would be an awesome game?

That qualifies as sufficiently anything completely different, this is the topic of the discussion now.

Could be interesting. Vampires have an advantage in that they can be a lot more active, though.

[Mewtarthio]

Could be interesting. Vampires have an advantage in that they can be a lot more active, though.

Conversely, mummies can permanently kill vampires but cannot be permanently killed in turn, and are active during the day, and start at Sekhem 10. Also, Eternal Legend + Pharaoh Reigns Anew = Unassailable power in the mortal world.

I'd imagine that the vampires would spend their time between Descents consolidating power and preparing for the next Descent. They'd probably have to get thralls inside the Arisen cults to be successful, and they'd ultimately be better off manipulating the mummy rather than opposing it directly.

[WitchSlayer]

So who thinks a Mummy vs Vampire ancient conspiracies game, starting in the Roman Empire and stretching to modern times would be an awesome game?

We actually touched upon something very similar to that in the Mummy game I'm in. We did a flashback to the time of the Ostrogoths and some vampires were doing some nasty things with some relics, hoping to become daywalkers or something whatever. We ended up having to go to Constantinople to get these vampires. We eventually managed to kick their butt and accidentally release an actual historical plague across Constantinople. Oops

Also, yes, but really it depends on when it's actually happening, during a Sothic Turn mummies can be plenty active. Also they can always be raised by their cults if needed, which is another advantage the Mummies have over vampires. Large numbers of normal mortal followers.

[Turalisj]

Conversely, mummies can permanently kill vampires but cannot be permanently killed in turn, and are active during the day, and start at Sekhem 10. Also, Eternal Legend + Pharaoh Reigns Anew = Unassailable power in the mortal world.

I'd imagine that the vampires would spend their time between Descents consolidating power and preparing for the next Descent. They'd probably have to get thralls inside the Arisen cults to be successful, and they'd ultimately be better off manipulating the mummy rather than opposing it directly.

We should obviously do a game around this.

It is the only answer.

[SiuiS]

Ah, yes, forgot that one. Like you say, it has more potential to turn disastrous than mundane mundane sex.
Does it say if the child is going to be at least part fae? Because if they are, that's another argument in favour of becoming human again. If your child is a Changeling, they will attract more attention, have access to dangerous powers, and be essentially partially crazy from birth. It could be very hard to cope with your child seeing things that aren't there just like you do, wandering into the Hedge and potentially never coming back, etc.

They woul be human, but touched – not quite ensorcelled from birth. Still, a huge risk.

You're spending more time on it than the rulebooks. The rulebooks just say that the child is automatically human from the Changeling's side; the only odd stuff happens when a Fetch is one of the parents.

Oh, really? Where is that?

Aaaaaaaaaand I think that's a good cue to talk about anything completely different.

You got it, boss~!

Still waiting on that whole GMC thing. It's at, like, the final cusp of release. It is teasing me. They are evaluating the file. What does that even mean? Just release it already! I'm American, we do that whole instant gratification thing. I want mah cutie markGod-Machine naaaoooooo~!

[Sith_Happens]

Aaaaaaaaaand I think that's a good cue to talk about anything completely different.

Not even to comment on how the following procedure:

Personally, as an ST, if one had enough dots of Resources - as this would be a rather specialized procedure, and thus fairly expensive - I'd allow Changelings to take a sample of their DNA, and a sample from the other person, then take them to a lab to be randomly mixed and grown, whether in one of the parents or a surrogate mother.

is in many of its key steps more or less identical to cloning, and therefore would (in a modern-day game at least) come with a number of nasty side-effects?

Unless, of course, you have a Genius do it. But then that brings the question of what happens if a mortal touches your child...

[ToySoldierCPlus]

is in many of its key steps more or less identical to cloning, and therefore would (in a modern-day game at least) come with a number of nasty side-effects?

Unless, of course, you have a Genius do it. But then that brings the question of what happens if a mortal touches your child...

I was going to question the viability of such a process before our resident modthulu requested the topic change.

That said, now I'm curious to see how that would play out. Heck, how would it work if the mother of the child was a mortal?

[TheCountAlucard]

Ix-nay on the ouching-tay, guys, you're gonna get the FBI on us.

[The Glyphstone]

I just wanted to head off any issues, since the topic had drifted towards abortion. If you guys think that can of purple worms can be left alone, cloning's not in itself a dangerous topic.

[Mewtarthio]

As far as lab-grown Changeling babies go, I'd say that regular fertility treatments won't work since the Lost are almost totally infertile. I don't think they produce the right cells anymore. You could try some weird gene-splicing thing, but just about the only people who'd be willing to give it a shot would be the Cheiron Group.

You could also go the supernatural route. A Mage with mastery in Life and Mind could probably just will a child into existence; modifying its genetic code so that it could have been yours is child's play at that point. Of course, the Mage could also decide that's too much trouble and just give you the conviction that you have a child, leaving you holding the bag (quite literally: The bag is stuffed with flour and has a crudely-drawn face on it, and you treat it with all the love and kindness you can muster).

From what I've heard about the upcoming Demon: The ????, you could also use a demon as an intermediary to purchase someone else's child. The demon just buys the "Parent of [child's name]" portion of the "real" parent's identity and sells it to you, meaning that you are now the child's parent for all intents and purposes. The downside there is that I've heard demons are quite protective of their privacy, and also you now have a glitched identity that probably introduces a number of paradoxes into reality, which most likely has negative side effects.

[Mephisto]

Changeling fertility: What about a drink from the River of Dead Seed? You'd have to hire some Sin Eaters to get it for you and pay through the nose for it, but it should work.

[WitchSlayer]

I know mummies have an ability that the next time that person has heterosexual intercourse the union will create a child, no matter what. Even if there were surgeries to prevent that sort of thing. That child will always be born healthy and also be a Witness. Pretty handy.

[SiuiS]

As far as lab-grown Changeling babies go, I'd say that regular fertility treatments won't work since the Lost are almost totally infertile. I don't think they produce the right cells anymore. You could try some weird gene-splicing thing, but just about the only people who'd be willing to give it a shot would be the Cheiron Group.

A changeling is genetically identical to a nonchangeling. There's no indicator that they aren't human at all. So they still produce all the same cells.

Odds are, as a changeling, they are under the same category as the Gentry and so don't have the proper contracts with gestation, maternity and such. A few fall into a loophole of some kind which has yet to be deduced, but for the most part you need to go find fertility and make a deal with it.

I know mummies have an ability that the next time that person has heterosexual intercourse the union will create a child, no matter what. Even if there were surgeries to prevent that sort of thing. That child will always be born healthy and also be a Witness. Pretty handy.

what's a witness? Also, neat!

[Selrahc]

A changeling is genetically identical to a nonchangeling. There's no indicator that they aren't human at all. So they still produce all the same cells.

There is no indicator... if you can't see through the mask. But the mask is just an illusion. The mien is the reality.

The fact that genetic tests are amongst the many things fooled by the mask doesn't mean that the genetics really are identical.

what's a witness?

Mummies project a creepiness aura, dependent on a few things. Witnesses are immune. It's in the same vein as Ensorcelled, Sleepwalkers and Wolfblooded.

[SiuiS]

There is no indicator... if you can't see through the mask. But the mask is just an illusion. The mien is the reality.

The fact that genetic tests are amongst the many things fooled by the mask doesn't mean that the genetics really are identical.

Or it could be the reverse, where you're just normal and all the pter insane fairies happen to share your delusion. That the mask runs so deep as to be impermiable in all ways and the only verification you have is that using Fairy Illusion Magic can let you see it/see through it...

I mean, that's kinda silly, but I enjoy that Changeling has as many clear answers as Mage has balanced, hard to abuse options.

Mummies project a creepiness aura, dependent on a few things. Witnesses are immune. It's in the same vein as Ensorcelled, Sleepwalkers and Wolfblooded.

Sweet!

[Lady Serpentine]

The fact that genetic tests are amongst the many things fooled by the mask doesn't mean that the genetics really are identical.

On the other hand... Is there any evidence that the Mask is fooling them? Especially as the test could easily be being run by someone who can see through the Mask, if you have another Changeling with the relevant skills.

Just because it exists doesn't mean it covers everything, after all. So why would the default assumption be that it's the Mask covering it, when that most often applies specifically to images - and even then, it's ambiguous as to whether or not it only takes a picture of the Mask or if those who can see the Mien would -, rather than that the tests are right?

The latter would certainly seem to make more sense with the fact that some Changelings can manage to have children with humans, for instance. Rather hard to do that if your genetics are messed up, no?

[SiuiS]

On the other hand... Is there any evidence that the Mask is fooling them? Especially as the test could easily be being run by someone who can see through the Mask, if you have another Changeling with the relevant skills.

Just because it exists doesn't mean it covers everything, after all. So why would the default assumption be that it's the Mask covering it, when that most often applies specifically to images - and even then, it's ambiguous as to whether or not it only takes a picture of the Mask or if those who can see the Mien would -, rather than that the tests are right?

The latter would certainly seem to make more sense with the fact that some Changelings can manage to have children with humans, for instance. Rather hard to do that if your genetics are messed up, no?

The Mask is sufficient that if a loved one rubs your antlers, they don;t feel antlers... And it is ambiguous enough that uyou can't be sure the antlers are even there.


As for "some changelings can have offspring", I thinkthe only way ot turly read that is "Changelings cannot have kids, unless the ST thinks it would make a good story or it's really important to your character.

[Mono Vertigo]

The Mask is sufficient that if a loved one rubs your antlers, they don;t feel antlers... And it is ambiguous enough that uyou can't be sure the antlers are even there.

Yeah, the Mask covers all senses.
It doesn't hide fae characteristics completely, it just masks (hah!) them. A Snowkin may feel like they're sweating a lot and be a bit cold, but not feel like actual ice or snow to a mortal. A Flowering merely smells of good perfume, not like you're in a field of exotic flowers. The heavy hooves of a Broadback translate to heavy, loud steps. The kiss of a Manikin feels a little coppery like blood, not coppery like a goddamn walking steam machine.
One of the books mention a Earthbones who gets autopsied. His heart feels a little dry and mineral, perhaps hinting to some cardiac disease, but the mundane doctors don't see the chunk of crystal Changelings can see, only a human heart.
Long story short, DNA may look normal under the microscope, but god knows what it actually looks like/what it is to another Changeling. It's not just a visual illusion, it's one of the best sensory trickery in the whole nWoD.

[SiuiS]

It's not just a visual illusion, it's one of the best sensory trickery in the whole nWoD.

or it is an illusion, it's just the est mind-&!%*ery in the whole nWoD.

I much prefer the ambiguity of maybe you're all just sharing a delusion, and your fancy hedgespun robes? You've plastered yourself with leaves and are reigning naked over the other homeless psychos.

[Mono Vertigo]

or it is an illusion, it's just the est mind-&!%*ery in the whole nWoD.

I much prefer the ambiguity of maybe you're all just sharing a delusion, and your fancy hedgespun robes? You've plastered yourself with leaves and are reigning make over the other homeless psychos.

Well yeah, of course. I'm merely speaking from the point of view of the Lost.

[Selrahc]

On the other hand... Is there any evidence that the Mask is fooling them?

Some changelings are animated chunks of ice, or metal. How could they possibly be genetically identical.. when they don't even have genes any more?

[Lady Serpentine]

Some changelings are animated chunks of ice, or metal. How could they possibly be genetically identical.. when they don't even have genes any more?

Most low-wyrd Changelings aren't anywhere near that extreme, though, from what I've seen - to truly become entirely ice or metal is the 5-dot Clause of the Contract of Elements, after all.

High-wyrd changes things, of course, but that's because at that point you really aren't supposed to be human anymore, you're starting to turn into an actual Fae.

Nor does that account for all of the others - what about, for instance, someone who has their organs and such rearranged, but otherwise has their body stay the same?

[One Tin Soldier]

or it is an illusion, it's just the est mind-&!%*ery in the whole nWoD.

I much prefer the ambiguity of maybe you're all just sharing a delusion, and your fancy hedgespun robes? You've plastered yourself with leaves and are reigning make over the other homeless psychos.

You know, SiuiS, I think you might be interested in the Demon fansplat that me, Xallace, and a few other people are working on. A big part of the game is making ambiguous as to whether anything truly supernatural is going on in the first place.

(Yes, we know about the official Demon game, and we're pretty sure that it will be different enough not to step on any toes.)

[MugaSofer]

From what I've heard about the upcoming Demon: The ????, you could also use a demon as an intermediary to purchase someone else's child. The demon just buys the "Parent of [child's name]" portion of the "real" parent's identity and sells it to you, meaning that you are now the child's parent for all intents and purposes. The downside there is that I've heard demons are quite protective of their privacy, and also you now have a glitched identity that probably introduces a number of paradoxes into reality, which most likely has negative side effects.

Ooh, really? I grow more excited about Demon by the update.

A changeling is genetically identical to a nonchangeling. There's no indicator that they aren't human at all. So they still produce all the same cells.

IDK, I'm pretty sure regular humans can fail to produce the relevant cells without being genetically nonhuman.

[Morty]

The God-Machine Chronicles are here, everyone. Both the book and the free rules updated are available on Drive Thru RPG.

[Turalisj]

I like the rules update already, and I'm just browsing through the merits!

Anyone interested in running a mortals game? Something like an occult CSI?