General Exalted Discussion Thread XI: Great Job, You Broke the Scale.

[Hiro Protagonest]

As for the Still No Name charm: What advantage does this offer over Loom-Snarling Deception? Actual shapechanging as opposed to illusions?
If so, rather than combining the shapechanging of Malfeas with the delicacy of the Ebon Dragon, I recommend treating it as combining the many faces of the Ebon Dragon with the absolute dominion over his own body that Malfeas grants. - Malfeas is not defined by a changing shape, but by one that is absolutely what he says it is. Ebby will let you lie about what you are, and forms the basis for the trick, merely modified by Malfeas.
Also remember that your disguise is not/should not be impenetrable as a Lunar's is; if you want to disguise yourself as a person, you must still impersonate them and properly envision their form - AKA, this charm doesn't (and shouldn't) negate a disguise check to impersonate someone.

Good point about the disguise thing.

Perhaps "if you are impersonating a real person, then you gain a +4 on Larceny (is it Larceny that you use for disguise) checks to impersonate them".

Perhaps I should name it "A Thousand Changing Faces"? Meh, I'll stick with that until I think of something better.

And I still think this steps on Lunar toes too much for too little interest. It just doesn't feel very Infernal to me.

Until I can make a good strong Lunar that DOESN'T rely on warform in combat (the Conan mention in the Third Edition thread made me want to play a Lunar with an axe or hammer), it's either this or that gender-swapping water hearthstone in Oadenol's Codex.

And even if I can make a good strong Lunar that doesn't rely on it in 2.5, the PDF's on my broken computer, my parent's won't let me download on either of the family computers, and I bought it before Print on Demand was available, so it's more expensive to buy both than if I had bought them together. Hopefully my uncle, who's fixing my computer (not that we haven't tried to have it fixed a couple times already), will be done by Thanksgiving, which is when we usually see him.

Eh, I guess my best bet would be the hearthstone.

[Lix Lorn]

I would really like an alchemicals game that got to the metro/patropolis level. Designing our city forms would be cool. To avoid playing at that level we could just use silo charms.

...this. I want this. A lot.

[snake obsidian]

I´m in with anyone that wants to play an Autochtlon campaign, or Gunstar Autochtlonia.

[Sanguine]

Seems there is plenty of interest, I'll post a thread looking for an ST tomorrow.

[Indon]

Perhaps then you'd actually answer the question: what stories is Exalted supposed to tell?

I think I could take a stab at answering this question, at least from my perspective.

Exalted, in its' vanilla form (the system is diverse enough that it supports *far* more than this, but I think much of my point here applies to many alternate story approaches as well), tells epic, awesome, Gilgamesh-reminiscent stories. There's a heavy reliance on mythological story tropes, rather than standard ones.

And if you ask me, a lot of that is pretty much independent from the rule system you use, and more about the social contract of the specific gaming group.

For instance, I've had mortal Exalt-enemies stop mid-combat, call a truce, and have a good-natured duel before parting ways. That's a pretty Creation thing to do, if you ask me, but there's no reasonable way to encourage that in a ruleset without completely breaking a bunch of more fundamental stuff. Instead, it's just something the players and ST have to understand.

Another example: I had an NPC engage in a series of gambling matches with the players trying to get a specific item. Once he got something the PC's wanted to keep, he offered to trade for the item he wanted. The PC's could have done the obvious, D&D-style (or, arguably, infernal) thing and try to immediately murder him and take his stuff - but they didn't, they dealt with the guy honorably and gave him what he wanted to get what they wanted back, and then dealt with the consequences later.

What I'm trying to say is that applying player common sense and optimization to a mythological setting *should* break that setting, because you're applying tropes that aren't meant to be used. That I see, Xefas speaks of the ability of players to break the system doing things it's not meant to do and I see nothing wrong with that.

Not that Exalted doesn't have things it couldn't improve on - more health and non-perfect combat survival options I think is a good example. But the only thing that can get players to, for instance, engage in an honorable, anime-style duel rather than a D&D-style beatdown if the opportunity presents itself is the players being properly genre-savvy, and that's not something you're going to be able to work into the system at a technical level.

[Plague of Hats]

It's pretty fair if you don't follow the writing team around the internet, scribbling our words into illuminated books to preserve against the dark times. Even if you do frequent the White Wolf boards, you're not necessarily bumping into our posts! (But, no, seriously, why aren't you doing this?)

Still, when I see someone predict doom, doom, doom, and especially "more of the same," it's hard not to not to get that look on my face that I imagine I would have if someone told me there was a conspiracy amongst crocodiles to confuse everyone into thinking they are alligators. The people in charge of Exalted now have not exactly been subtle about our dissatisfaction with fundamental or pervasive parts of both system and setting.

[Geostationary]

Good point about the disguise thing.

Perhaps "if you are impersonating a real person, then you gain a +4 on Larceny (is it Larceny that you use for disguise) checks to impersonate them".

Perhaps I should name it "A Thousand Changing Faces"? Meh, I'll stick with that until I think of something better.

Until I can make a good strong Lunar that DOESN'T rely on warform in combat (the Conan mention in the Third Edition thread made me want to play a Lunar with an axe or hammer), it's either this or that gender-swapping water hearthstone in Oadenol's Codex.

And even if I can make a good strong Lunar that doesn't rely on it in 2.5, the PDF's on my broken computer, my parent's won't let me download on either of the family computers, and I bought it before Print on Demand was available, so it's more expensive to buy both than if I had bought them together. Hopefully my uncle, who's fixing my computer (not that we haven't tried to have it fixed a couple times already), will be done by Thanksgiving, which is when we usually see him.

Eh, I guess my best bet would be the hearthstone.

I may have missed this upthread, but why is it so important for you to be able to do this?

Also, another name idea- "Imperious Identity Deception"

[Xefas]

Perhaps then you'd actually answer the question: what stories is Exalted supposed to tell?

The easy answer is that the Exalted system is supposed to tell the story of the Exalted setting. See all the things you like about the setting? Picturing them in your mind? You should be able to sit down and, with minimal effort by all involved, tell a story that invokes every one of those things. With no hiccups, no problems, no house rules, no rule zero, no fudging, no homebrew, no dishonesty, no illusionism, no extensive rules referencing, no extensive rules mastery required. And you should be able to tell an entire cohesive one of these stories from beginning to end (beginning, rising action, climax, falling action, conclusion - and plenty of conflicts in between) in a few hours. Oh, and you should be able to do this if every single person at the table has no idea what Exalted is, including the Game Master.

I know its possible, because Mouse Guard. Because Dresden Files. Because Free Market. And so on.

[Rhyvurg]

Seems there is plenty of interest, I'll post a thread looking for an ST tomorrow.

Could you post a link here when you do?

[Draken]

It's pretty fair if you don't follow the writing team around the internet, scribbling our words into illuminated books to preserve against the dark times. Even if you do frequent the White Wolf boards, you're not necessarily bumping into our posts! (But, no, seriously, why aren't you doing this?)

Still, when I see someone predict doom, doom, doom, and especially "more of the same," it's hard not to not to get that look on my face that I imagine I would have if someone told me there was a conspiracy amongst crocodiles to confuse everyone into thinking they are alligators. The people in charge of Exalted now have not exactly been subtle about our dissatisfaction with fundamental or pervasive parts of both system and setting.

You shouldn't worry about the crocodiles and the alligators with their small, petty plots. Dread the gharials, who veil themselves in greater obscurity and weave their malice out of the public eye.

[Tavar]

Yeah, not sure that your statement is really that realistic: I can see teaching someone fate or wushu in that time and running a game, but for a less rules light system? Not sure how your doing it that fast.

And, rules light or generic systems do have a problem that the mechanics can get divorced from the setting. That might not be a problem, but I'd say it's pretty central to Exalted's setting and feel.

[meschlum]

Denying the Gifts of the Wyld

The majority of Exalts visiting the Bordermarches have very poor taste, and are unwilling to remain and share their stories, and souls, with those who would make better use of them. A few choose to stay within the Wyld and destroy its generous offerings, claiming they form some sort of barrier against the Raksha.

Thus, the Fair Folk have known for quite some time that the Exalted are a thankless sort, refusing the blessings and kindness of Chaos at every opportunity. With the return of the Solars, little has changed. Some convert the Wyld into tedious, limited Creation. Some kill everything and try to extinguish its creative spark. Some mutter about heretical charm trees and remain utterly oblivious.

Given this attitude, it is not surprising that the Wyld has chosen to turn its back on the Exalted. Where the Denial is present, Exalts become incapable of imagining that the Wyld might be of any practical use to attain their goals, or even, for that matter, an impediment. Mortals, enlightened or not, remain fully aware and capable of dealing with the Raksha - such bargains are made on far fairer terms, being void of outside interference. And it's many a Fair Folk who has laughed delightedly at the contortions the Exalted go through to achieve their goals, when the merest gift from the Wyld could solve all their troubles.

5 dot Oneiromancy
Assumption of the Living Kingdom - the Denial affects a huge area, possibly even reaching into those portions of Fate known as the Web.
Fall of Night Shadows the Truth - Exalts planning ways to use the Wyld to accomplish their goals forget about the possibility of using it almost at once.
Mad God Mien - counter magic and repetition simply do not work to convince the Exalted of this.

As an alternative, use Curse of Definition instead. This Oneiromancy is obviously extremely widesperad, and explains why Creation is the way it is, rather than having Exalts deal with the Wyld intelligently.


Twin Ring

To the Raksha, all Creation-born look alike. This is, of course, entirely false. Each individual soul and source of emotions is unique and tantalizingly delicious. But when they enter Creation and find themselves limited to the senses it permits, the Fair Folk find it extremely difficult to differentiate between humans and their kin. Same number of limbs, bipedal, create sounds mostly from the upper part... Telling the difference between human and penguin is something of a feat!

Since the Creation-born do not show this difficulty, and it is well know that the Raksha (like the Exlated) are better than mortals in every regard, it follows that the Fair Folk have sought to share their perceptions with others. Hence, the Ring. By wearing it and following its dictates, a Raksha (or Wyld attuned Creation-born) can adopt the shape of any human they meet. In order to demonstrate some familiarity with the human form, the gender of the borrowed shape can be adjusted as required.

1-dot Adjuration
Assumption of Dreams and Passion - the Ring has three gems, a diamond, an emerald, and a ruby. When the wearer touches a Shaped being with the diamond, it bestows the effect of this Charm, tuned to disguise its wearer into the person touched by the diamond. This is a bodily transformation.
Snail Assumption - the emerald and ruby can rotate so that one or the other faces outwards. When the outer gem is the emerald, the shape currently worn by the bearer of the Ring has the same gender as the original. The ruby switches genders. This is done via mutations.

[Kyeudo]

Could you post a link here when you do?

How about I just do this? Alchemical game for any who are interested.

[Kobold-Bard]

I may have missed this upthread, but why is it so important for you to be able to do this?

Also, another name idea- "Imperious Identity Deception"

Because they want to play a Lunar, but Lunars suck & Infernals are awesome, so their solution is seemingly to just pretend Lunars don't exist as a PC splat essentially.

[Xefas]

Yeah, not sure that your statement is really that realistic: I can see teaching someone fate or wushu in that time and running a game, but for a less rules light system? Not sure how your doing it that fast.

And, rules light or generic systems do have a problem that the mechanics can get divorced from the setting. That might not be a problem, but I'd say it's pretty central to Exalted's setting and feel.

I know its possible, because Mouse Guard. Because Dresden Files. Because Free Market. And so on.

None of these are rules-lite. Mouse Guard is over 300 pages. Dresden Files is two books. Free Market can only be bought in a giant box set. They're much much heavier than stuff like Fate and Wushu. And they're everything I said, with mechanics strongly married to the setting. Free Market? Every word on the character sheet is an in-game word. Take that "Health Level".

[Darkheart One]

Found old Wyld creature fluff ideas from OffExForums. Reposting a few here. Enjoy.


Firedrinker cobras are small, brightly-colored snakes that could best be described as 'scaled waterskins'. Wide of body and bearing more of a resemblance to a sole than a snake, these creatures are utterly immune to heat and can both consume and slowly digest all of the known variants of liquid fire. Guild agents who are adept at surviving the Southern Marches hunt firedrinkers for the undigested contents in their balloon-like stomachs, usually spearing them through the head to avoid troublesome spillage.

In most cases, the serpents are drained of their contents and butchered; their skin, stomachs and scales retains their heatproof nature while their naturally-warm and deliciously spicy flesh is sold for a hefty sum. Some of the wyld cobras are allowed to live, as they can be trained to track both liquid fire streams and other firedrinkers (during mating seasons).



Clouds-on-the-water (singular Cloud-on-the-water) are wyld-tainted men-of-war with a most peculiar shape -- when close, the meter-wide creatures appear to be not unlike puffy dome-shaped clouds made from a translucent white gelatin. Those who are knowledgeable in human anatomy will realize that the cloud-on-the-water is in fact shaped like a stylized human brain.

At a distance during the day, clouds are translucent enough to avoid being easily spotted; they use this to their advantage to approach and attach onto sailing vessels with their dexterous, exceedingly long tentacles. While so attached, Clouds-on-the-water extend their senses to hunt for their prey -- least gods.

Each cloud-on-the-water comes to enjoy 'feeding' on a particular type of object, and should the opportunity present itself, the man-o-war will swiftly snatch the unattended item away and draw it into itself before submerging. Said feeding is little more than the cloud-on-the-water poring through and copying the least god's knowledge of the object it inhabits; the act is incredibly disorienting for the godling, but not harmful. Once it is done, the cloud will usually replace the object if it has not been spotted. Should it be under duress, the cloud will usually abort its 'meal' and throw the object back in a bid to avoid pursuit.

After enough feedings, a cloud gains some measure of intelligence, and can even hold basic conversations (usually only in Old Realm). Older and more wily clouds-on-the-water will actively approach and bargain for new and interesting meals in exchange for sharing their collected knowledge; a rare few even have experience with non-artifact First Age objects.

Clouds-on-the-water notably cannot 'consume' objects with an Artifact rating -- the godlings within those are too complex for them to draw from.



Aurids are, as far as any scholar of the Wyld can tell, not originally from the Wyld... or, perhaps, Creation altogether. Appearing to be plum-sized spheres of multicolored glass that move about on four spider-like limbs, the aurids' nature as alien beings is undeniable to anyone with Essence sight -- their bodies, while suffused with the Essence of the wyld, contains a similar energy that so far has baffled anyone attempting to define and codify its nature. (Jupiter is said to know, but no one has any luck prying the truth from her.)

Aurids 'speak' directly to a being's mind, although their innate means of expressing themselves occasionally translates through as musical terminology. (They call themselves 'the polyphony', and refer to the creatures of Creation as 'loose notes', for example.) So long as relations remain cordial, the aurids are welcoming and friendly, if strange. Should things come to blows, the aurids employ sound as a devastating weapon -- striking from a distance with staccato notes, or slicing apart armor and flesh with a solidified arpeggio.

At present, roughly a few thousand aurids inhabit a small number of waypoints in the Northeastern Bordermarches, and mostly keep to themselves. A small number become attached to mortals passing through, and opt to travel with the 'lonely chord' for a time to see what lies beyond their refuge. Most of these return to impart what they've seen to their fellows, but a rare few become so attached to their mortal companion that they remain by their side for as long as they're welcome.

As aurids spend time with the Creation-born (as well as outside of the Wyld), their nature and form gradually changes to compliment their new 'conductor'. This change varies dramatically: one aurid in the service of a Sijanese gravekeeper perches on his master's shoulder not unlike a bat and transforms his master's voice into an organ-bursting wall of pure bass, while another travels with its Zenith songstress after having fashioned itself into a walking erhu made of opaque white and gold crystal.



The Oak-Barrel Fellow is a relic of the First Age -- a ten-foot high wine cask that had been lost in the Deep Wyld during an exceedingly alcohol-soaked safari/party/orgy. Hundreds of years of exposure to the essence of the Wyld has granted it both sentience and the inexplicable knack for showing up at revels all over Creation.

The Fellow possesses powerful limbs crafted from knotted oak, with hands and feet made of cork and golden leaves. One of its upper feathersteel hoops pulls upward to reveal large sap-amber eyes, and an oversized mouth (revealing only darkness and smelling of the finest port when he speaks) has formed somewhere near the middle of its bulk. Its polished steel tap remains where one would expect on a barrel, still functional and ready to dispense whatever intoxicant is on tap.

Aside from locomotion and sentience, the Oak-Barrel Fellow can duplicate almost any alcoholic beverage it has ever had a sample of. It cannot, however, create something from nothing; the wyld prodigy has to transmute one beverage to another, but can turn the cheapest swill into anything from the finest of rums from the West to an incredibly addictive (and nameless) applejack filtered through the powdered remains of a specific Ornamental Raksha's Cup Grace. Only Celestial Wine is beyond the Oak-Barrel Fellow's capabilities, and is the only drink that can actually intoxicate the creature normally.

The Fellow has been to (and taken part in) Cynis revels, shared a glass of Celestial Wine with off-duty gods, and provided enough merlot for a group of Nobles to hold poppet-manned 'sea' battles in a Southern waypoint. It's full of tales, and will readily share them with whoever it's come across, so long as they're drinking. Those who can provide it with an alcohol that it has never sampled, though, can trade their gift for rare information or an alcohol-related favor at some later date. One doesn't need to give the Fellow specific details once they need to call in said favor -- it will be there, and the booze will flow.

[Indon]

The easy answer is that the Exalted system is supposed to tell the story of the Exalted setting.

The setting for Exalted is much more diverse than those of other games, and many aspects that may be found in one game contradict with aspects found in another.

It's one thing to have, for instance, a horror-genre game with horror-genre mechanics. But what if your game could be horror, but doesn't have to be? Well, now you potentially have horror-genre mechanics in your action-adventure or whatever.

A simpler example is power level expectations in D&D. You can have a group of optimized casters playing cosmic rocket tag, or a group of gritty, unoptimized fighters/rogues/monks running a tactical combat game, but if you try to do both at once you're going to run into problems.

Now, picture that, only the conflicting mechanics are no longer just character classes but potentially fundamental parts of the system. Now you have a choice.

You could cut out potentially genre-enriching rules and make just a generic, high-level narrative system to accomplish the goal. That'd certainly be fast, consistent, diverse, and easy. It's also probably not worth buying a rulebook. When mechanics don't interestingly mesh with the story in a story-oriented game, why have those mechanics?

Alternately, you could have ST micromanagement, which is the semi-written expectation for Exalted as it currently is. ST's are expected to set the environment up the way they want and to be as heavy-handed as they need to be to get what they want to work, up to and including just ignoring any part of the setting that gets in the way of the potential fun.

There are ways WW could improve the second approach. Greater rules modularity could potentially allow ST's to micromanage how they run their games and reduce overhead for the current system, for instance. But I for one wouldn't want them to abandon that approach entirely, because otherwise, I wouldn't want an Exalted game, I'd want Exalted *storybooks*, and I'd just play it with the Amber Diceless ruleset.

[Xefas]

Stuff

I disagree with pretty much everything you just said, and suggest you play more games. Simply because I think you've put a lot of thought into this, and I don't think my preaching will convince you better than just going and playing stuff. I could say "Blah, blah, you could do this and that and it would all work and these games do it, and so on", but no, I'll just throw out a suggestion.

Burning Wheel, I think, sounds like it would be something you'd like, and would maybe challenge your current conceptions about the roleplaying game medium.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I may have missed this upthread, but why is it so important for you to be able to do this?

Because I want to play a girl, but I don't want to play even a bi one for an entire campaign. On the other hand, I want to stick to one character.

But I'll probably just go for the hearthstone. Way simpler, probably cheaper, and it can power artifact ships and warstriders.

Also, what would you guy do to tone down the Power Mace (Wonders of the Lost Age)? -4L and -6B damage, add O 2 to the ranged attacks? I kinda want Celestial Battle Armor, and if I take that, I'm definitely taking Essence Gauntlets.

[Dragnar]

Exalted and DnD both fall into roughly the same class of RPG. The oldest class specifically, mechanically heavy and descended from war games like 40k and such. For telling stories? Xefas is right, that class a far cry from being any good at that. But I think he's not looking at it from both sides of the issue.

See, while Mouse Guard and all the rest ARE much better at telling stories, since that's what they are built around from the ground up? That doesn't make them inherently better RPGs. Now, those particular examples are some of the best around anyways, but that's got nothing to do with what class they are in.

Basically, it comes down to this: No one game can satisfy everyone. Because while some people like things like Xefas does, (Trust me Indon, Exalted could be done like that) others like the mechanically heavy simulationist/gamist games. The ones built around the crunch instead of the fluff. For some, the pleasure of making a character in DnD or Exalted, fitting all the pieces together and creating something unique and powerful, is just as fun if not even better. Those mechanics, while often clashing with the story, can also serve as a sort of validation for the character's success. When a DnD character kills an enemy, you can be proud of the success of something you built. While in those other games, the joy comes more from seeing the story develop. Different people have different preferences.

...well, that was more than a little rambling. I'm terrible at getting things like this across.

Edit:

Because I want to play a girl, but I don't want to play even a bi one for an entire campaign. On the other hand, I want to stick to one character.

...frankly, you're making this way more complicated than it has to be. This is Exalted, and that's an insanely minor magical effect compared to most. Just make an Alchemy procedure, then buy it for 1 xp. (There's a canon one to let you dream of being the other gender, and it's only rank 1 our of 3. Actually changing would easily fit into 2-3.)

[horngeek]

...fine, don't make her bi, just have her interested in men. Problem solved.

[Hiro Protagonest]

...fine, don't make her bi, just have her interested in men. Problem solved.

It doesn't matter what sexual orientation she is (except for asexual, transsexual, and omnisexual, which I will always avoid). But I want to be able to seduce straight girls without anything beyond an Excellency.

Also, I like the idea of a character who can change gender on a whim.

And I might play a Lunar, Kobold-Bard. If the third edition version isn't so focused on shapechanging, but still has it.

[Lix Lorn]

Also, I like the idea of a character who can change gender on a whim.

Take it from someone who's done it, it gets boring.

[industrious]

I don't know...in a RL Exalted game, there was this hilarious planned arc where the Lunar wanted to have the kids of his Solar mate after the two of them argued about which of them had sired more illegitimate children.

Of course, during this campaign, we fell for the exact same trick three times in a row, and the Wyld Hunt was called because someone wrote a letter to a very devout Dragon-blood announcing what they were.

We also accidentally declared war on the Mask of Winters.

[Qwertystop]

straight

Do those people exist in Exalted?

[industrious]

Do those people exist in Exalted?

Sexual preference is a -1/+1 MDV modifier. So the answer is not at all.

[Sanguine]

Do those people exist in Exalted?

Yes one does, however Rain Deathflyer is a man so he doesn't fit the greater context of the quote.

[Doran]

I know they are for protection against the Wyld, but can someone please tell me why Lunars need tattoos now and didn't in the first age / primordial war?

What stopped the Primordials using Wyld taints attacks etc on them during the war?

I'm reading Lunar Quest at the moment and its a little confusing.

[horngeek]

After the Usurpation, the Lunars fled to the Wyld. Spending so long there 'broke' their Castes, and started turning them into Chimera. The tattoos fixed their Castes (although with three now, instead of the five there were originally).

Simple.

[Sanguine]

After the Usurpation, the Lunars fled to the Wyld. Spending so long there 'broke' their Castes, and started turning them into Chimera. The tattoos fixed their Castes (although with three now, instead of the five there were originally).

Simple.

Also completely stupid.