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  1. - Top - End - #271
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    I think the Elementalist is salvageable - it's balanced at 6, a bit too good at 3, and way too good at 1. If you push the companion sizes to small at 3 and medium at 6, it would be fine, although the small companion might be a bit too squishy for a melee combatant. Maybe bring the shifting into elemental form forward to 3, move the resistance to 1, and give a familiar/homunculus level mini-elemental at 1.

    The Demonologist would be more interesting/fluffy with Lesser Planar Ally or Binding as the capstone SLA, although I don't know how balanced those would be.

    The Vindicator's middle ability is worth keeping, if it can be worked into a new/replacement archetype.

    The Paladin's Lay On Hands is pretty weak, and the Cenobite should probably get something better. I'm not sure exactly how I'd scale it, but it should have some sort of base healing so that a Cenobite with 10 to 15 wisdom gets some real use out of it. As it stands, it'll heal less than a hit worth of damage per day at low levels, so it's really only useful for stabilizing allies.

    The damage for the Cenobite's medium archetype power should probably scale a bit. Maybe wisdom mod + (1 per two levels).

    Faster Than The Naked Eye doesn't do anything for Brawlers when they get it, unless they're dual-wielding. I'd change it to something like "The Brawler may make a full attack as a standard action or part of a charge or make two attacks, one of which has a -5 penalty to the attack roll".

    The thief-acrobat's greater ability doesn't really do anything - with full ranks in tumble, even without a dex bonus or any attempt at optimization, he gets 25 by taking 10, enough to move at full speed through one opponent's threatened area. With a +2 dex bonus and the synergy bonus from jump, he can go past 3 enemies without having to roll.

  2. - Top - End - #272
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by zeruslord View Post
    I think the Elementalist is salvageable - it's balanced at 6, a bit too good at 3, and way too good at 1. If you push the companion sizes to small at 3 and medium at 6, it would be fine, although the small companion might be a bit too squishy for a melee combatant. Maybe bring the shifting into elemental form forward to 3, move the resistance to 1, and give a familiar/homunculus level mini-elemental at 1.

    The Demonologist would be more interesting/fluffy with Lesser Planar Ally or Binding as the capstone SLA, although I don't know how balanced those would be.

    The Vindicator's middle ability is worth keeping, if it can be worked into a new/replacement archetype.

    The Paladin's Lay On Hands is pretty weak, and the Cenobite should probably get something better. I'm not sure exactly how I'd scale it, but it should have some sort of base healing so that a Cenobite with 10 to 15 wisdom gets some real use out of it. As it stands, it'll heal less than a hit worth of damage per day at low levels, so it's really only useful for stabilizing allies.

    The damage for the Cenobite's medium archetype power should probably scale a bit. Maybe wisdom mod + (1 per two levels).

    Faster Than The Naked Eye doesn't do anything for Brawlers when they get it, unless they're dual-wielding. I'd change it to something like "The Brawler may make a full attack as a standard action or part of a charge or make two attacks, one of which has a -5 penalty to the attack roll".

    The thief-acrobat's greater ability doesn't really do anything - with full ranks in tumble, even without a dex bonus or any attempt at optimization, he gets 25 by taking 10, enough to move at full speed through one opponent's threatened area. With a +2 dex bonus and the synergy bonus from jump, he can go past 3 enemies without having to roll.
    1. I will think on it. I'd rather not have full casters get pets in addition to the toys they already get.

    2. Lesser Planar Binding is definitely out, being a 5th level spell, and even Lesser Planar Ally is a window to abuse. For the record, Lesser Planar Ally was originally the demonologist's capstone, but I removed because you just shouldn't be able to capture and bargain with a succubus in E6. Perhaps as a ritual spell.

    3. Possibly. It's kind of a bookkeeping nightmare, though.

    4. Cenobite's in serious need of some love, yeah.

    5. I gave brawlers Faster than the Naked Eye at level 5 because Haste is on the table at that point.

    6. Thief-acrobat also in need of love.

  3. - Top - End - #273
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    FYI, it looks like we're going to give your ruleset a test drive:
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...9#post13913429
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    And possibly another game as well, this one set in the Roman Empire:
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=256168
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  5. - Top - End - #275
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    So a while back Gnorman was throwing out ideas for feats, and he either linked or quoted basically exactly what is in Frank and K's Tomes.
    At the time, I was less than enthused by it, because I can't see beyond my own nose.
    Now, however, I see that those kinds of feats are absolutely perfect for his e6 classes.

    In addition, have you thought of any sort of World or Setting for your classes, Gnorman?
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by wadledo View Post
    So a while back Gnorman was throwing out ideas for feats, and he either linked or quoted basically exactly what is in Frank and K's Tomes.
    At the time, I was less than enthused by it, because I can't see beyond my own nose.
    Now, however, I see that those kinds of feats are absolutely perfect for his e6 classes.

    In addition, have you thought of any sort of World or Setting for your classes, Gnorman?
    They were feats in the style of Frank and K, yes, though they were my own creations. Djinn_in_tonic also posted some similar feats (that gave a benefit at every level) in his own G6 project.

    As far as a setting, I haven't really put one together beyond the one that might be suggested by my races. Tieflings and aasimar living together, mass hysteria, et cetera. Might be fun to work on right now though. Low magic, realistic, gritty without being too grim.

  7. - Top - End - #277
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Blessed by the Gods (Lesser Archetype Power): Once per encounter, a paladin may smite an enemy as part of a single melee attack. He gains a bonus on the attack roll equal to his Charisma modifier (minimum of zero), and if it connects, he deals extra damage equal to his paladin level multiplied by his Charisma modifier (minimum of zero). He may smite twice per encounter beginning at 5th level.
    Is it intended for the smite to add class level times charisma modifier? A sixth level paladin with 20 charisma would get +30 damage twice an encounter with that.
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by OzzyKP View Post
    Is it intended for the smite to add class level times charisma modifier? A sixth level paladin with 20 charisma would get +30 damage twice an encounter with that.
    My feeling on the subject was that if a paladin wants to invest in charisma that much (most likely to the exclusion of other abilities he might need), a smite that powerful is his consolation prize. A high risk high reward scenario - you could biff it and miss all that extra damage, and you wouldn't have the strength or constitution to hack it in normal melee. It may be a bit much though, and I was thinking about making smite more than just "extra damage".

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by wadledo View Post
    So a while back Gnorman was throwing out ideas for feats, and he either linked or quoted basically exactly what is in Frank and K's Tomes. At the time, I was less than enthused by it, because I can't see beyond my own nose. Now, however, I see that those kinds of feats are absolutely perfect for his e6 classes.
    Where is this list of feats?
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Here ya go, and before you ask, ya, they're approved for the game I'm running.
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Scaling feats are a great idea, but they do run somewhat contradictory to E6 principles - if you get a theoretically infinite amount of feats, they don't need to be all that great on their own. I remain torn on their use - some feats are so crappy that they just beg for scaling, and that may be justification enough. But they're more applicable in situations where feats are rare resources, therefore necessitating the boost.

  12. - Top - End - #282
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    bad feats work quite well with e6 since if you really want to max out a specific field you ll need all of them in the long run.

    i ve never taken the 3 hp toughness feat in normal dnd, but in e6 its quite handy to take it at level one telling oneself, "hey you cannot take the wrong feats in the long run and with lvl 1 this one is quite nice".

  13. - Top - End - #283
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by theDuskling View Post
    bad feats work quite well with e6 since if you really want to max out a specific field you ll need all of them in the long run.

    i ve never taken the 3 hp toughness feat in normal dnd, but in e6 its quite handy to take it at level one telling oneself, "hey you cannot take the wrong feats in the long run and with lvl 1 this one is quite nice".
    Quote Originally Posted by Gnorman View Post
    Scaling feats are a great idea, but they do run somewhat contradictory to E6 principles - if you get a theoretically infinite amount of feats, they don't need to be all that great on their own. I remain torn on their use - some feats are so crappy that they just beg for scaling, and that may be justification enough. But they're more applicable in situations where feats are rare resources, therefore necessitating the boost.
    Also, some of the original feats for E6 were designed to be quite powerful but balanced by having "dump" prerequisites. Homebrewers have a lot of flexibility coming up with their own feats with prerequisites like the +2-to-one-save feats, or +2-to-two-skill feats.

    I still think that the scaling feats idea has its place. Just not in E6.
    Last edited by Thomar_of_Uointer; 2012-09-22 at 12:55 PM.
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  14. - Top - End - #284
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomar_of_Uointer View Post
    Also, some of the original feats for E6 were designed to be quite powerful but balanced by having "dump" prerequisites. Homebrewers have a lot of flexibility coming up with their own feats with prerequisites like the +2-to-one-save feats, or +2-to-two-skill feats.

    I still think that the scaling feats idea has its place. Just not in E6.
    The trouble is, if I can spend an entire adventure just getting a terrible prerequisite for a good feat, I feel kinda put upon. Why should the wizard, for example, be able to get something cool no mater what (sudden metamagic, for example, is always cool), while the Fighter/Ranger/Paladin/Rogue has to take dump feats to get half-decent ones?

    That seems to be poor design.
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by wadledo View Post
    The trouble is, if I can spend an entire adventure just getting a terrible prerequisite for a good feat, I feel kinda put upon. Why should the wizard, for example, be able to get something cool no mater what (sudden metamagic, for example, is always cool), while the Fighter/Ranger/Paladin/Rogue has to take dump feats to get half-decent ones?

    That seems to be poor design.
    D&D is already designed that way. Endurance>Diehard. Combat Expertise>Whirlwind Attack. E6 has Ability Training>Ability Advancement.

    As long as your prerequisite feats are tolerably functional (+2 to a save is nothing to sneeze at) I think it's okay. The primary concern is balance, making sure that players don't outpace one another.

    It's fine if you write new E6 feats that have 6th level or 6/9 skill ranks or a base save bonus of +5 as prerequisites, as long as you cater to all of the character builds your party has. E6 already does this specific to each of the core classes, it's fine to write slightly more powerful feats intended for max-level characters.

    One option the GM could implement is write feats that have specific quest or money prerequisites. Want to take a feat to get wings? Okay, you have to perform a quest for an elder air elemental, spend 4,000 gp of reagents and spell components, and perform a ritual on one of the 5 highest mountains in the world.
    Last edited by Thomar_of_Uointer; 2012-09-22 at 01:25 PM.
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  16. - Top - End - #286
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomar_of_Uointer View Post
    D&D is already designed that way. Endurance>Diehard. Combat Expertise>Whirlwind Attack. E6 has Ability Training>Ability Advancement.

    As long as your prerequisite feats are tolerably functional (+2 to a save is nothing to sneeze at) I think it's okay. The primary concern is balance, making sure that players don't outpace one another.

    It's fine if you write new E6 feats that have 6th level or 6/9 skill ranks or a base save bonus of +5 as prerequisites, as long as you cater to all of the character builds your party has.

    One option the GM could implement is write feats that have specific quest or money prerequisites. Want to take a feat to get wings? Okay, you have to perform a quest for an elder air elemental, spend 4,000 gp of reagents and spell components, and perform a ritual on the highest peak, and then the next time you take a feat you can get flight.
    The trouble with that is Magical classes don't need homebrew feats, their standard feats are already awesome, while the majority of combat feats are terrible.
    So the deck is already stacked against physical characters.
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by wadledo View Post
    The trouble with that is Magical classes don't need homebrew feats, their standard feats are already awesome, while the majority of combat feats are terrible.
    So the deck is already stacked against physical characters.
    Most of the good mage feats I'm aware of (Born of the Three Thunders, Sudden Quicken) have steep prerequisites. Also, metamagic isn't that great in E6. (My mistake, I just realized that Empowered first level spells do 7d6 damage.)

    If the GM thinks that some feats are overpowered, he should add more prerequisites to them, or homebrew more equally overpowered feats so that all players can benefit from them.
    Last edited by Thomar_of_Uointer; 2012-09-22 at 01:39 PM.
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  18. - Top - End - #288
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomar_of_Uointer View Post
    Most of the good mage feats I'm aware of (Born of the Three Thunders, Sudden Quicken) have steep prerequisites.

    If the GM thinks that some feats are overpowered, he should add more prerequisites to them, or homebrew more equally overpowered feats so that all players can benefit from them.
    So what you are saying is that, instead of trying to improve a game, we should just keep it in the hands of the GM, and if they have a problem with anything let them deal with it, rather than us?

    In which case, why do we have a homebrew section at all, rather than a big sign that just says "RULE 0."
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomar_of_Uointer View Post
    D&D is already designed that way. Endurance>Diehard. Combat Expertise>Whirlwind Attack. E6 has Ability Training>Ability Advancement.

    As long as your prerequisite feats are tolerably functional (+2 to a save is nothing to sneeze at) I think it's okay. The primary concern is balance, making sure that players don't outpace one another.

    It's fine if you write new E6 feats that have 6th level or 6/9 skill ranks or a base save bonus of +5 as prerequisites, as long as you cater to all of the character builds your party has. E6 already does this specific to each of the core classes, it's fine to write slightly more powerful feats intended for max-level characters.

    One option the GM could implement is write feats that have specific quest or money prerequisites. Want to take a feat to get wings? Okay, you have to perform a quest for an elder air elemental, spend 4,000 gp of reagents and spell components, and perform a ritual on one of the 5 highest mountains in the world.
    I'm actually in the process (the long, drawn out process) of making "epic" e6 feats.

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    In a E6 thing I'm DMing, I'm letting Master Of Knowledge become one of them; "You can take this feat more then once" type deals. Stacking +1 bonus to all knowledge checks, decent investment for a feat.
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Is it possible (as in, would it be unreasonable) that the incarnum classes get some love? I'm about to start an E6 campaign in a week or two and I'd love to be able to use them. No pressure though, I'll just use Brute if they aren't. Please Gnorman, you're my only hope.
    Last edited by Mithril Leaf; 2012-09-23 at 03:28 PM.
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf View Post
    Is it possible (as in, would it be unreasonable) that the incarnum classes get some love? I'm about to start an E6 campaign in a week or two and I'd love to be able to use them. No pressure though, I'll just use Brute if they aren't. Please Gnorman, you're my only hope.
    Was there a particular archetype you wanted above the others? I'll see what I can do, but I should be able to fill a narrower request in a shorter amount of time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnorman View Post
    Was there a particular archetype you wanted above the others? I'll see what I can do, but I should be able to fill a narrower request in a shorter amount of time.
    I only care about the totemist.
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    I was going to PM you about it because I wanted to know, but then you posted it later. Elegant solution. Watch out for Necropolitans.
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf View Post
    I only care about the totemist.
    It would be nice if the other incarnum classes were rebalanced too.
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomar_of_Uointer View Post
    It would be nice if the other incarnum classes were rebalanced too.
    Well, aside from the soulborn, both the Totemist and the Incarnate are adequate, and all the soulborn really needs is the same thing the paladin needs, an improved spellcasting ability (and maybe a more adequate smite).
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnorman
    1. I will think on it. I'd rather not have full casters get pets in addition to the toys they already get.
    I can certainly see that. The point at which pets are a problem is when they are comparable to the fighters without making the caster burn combat actions on them.

    2. Lesser Planar Binding is definitely out, being a 5th level spell, and even Lesser Planar Ally is a window to abuse. For the record, Lesser Planar Ally was originally the demonologist's capstone, but I removed because you just shouldn't be able to capture and bargain with a succubus in E6. Perhaps as a ritual spell.
    Yeah, a ritual spell is the right place for that, although both of those are kinda ritual spells written up as though they were normal spells. Really all they need to make them rituals is a creepy requirement or two, some extra participants, and a casting time of an hour or two.

    5. I gave brawlers Faster than the Naked Eye at level 5 because Haste is on the table at that point.
    It's available, but only for red mages and wayfarers. It's not going to be on every table, and I'd be pretty unhappy if my one new ability at level 5 was totally useless until 6.


    While a lot of feats are in need of a powerup, I'm not sure the Races of War style feats are the right way to go about it for this project. A lot of the stuff Frank and K talk about in their writeup doesn't apply to E6 at all (only 7 feats ever), while some other stuff is even more important than in 20-level Tome games (nearly all characters are going to be played while between levels 3 and 5, so your first two feats need to define your character in that range). I'd kill off all the stupid feat taxes (every archer needs to take Point Blank Shot at level 1) and either remove or buff dodge, weapon focus, and the like.

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by zeruslord View Post
    While a lot of feats are in need of a powerup, I'm not sure the Races of War style feats are the right way to go about it for this project. A lot of the stuff Frank and K talk about in their writeup doesn't apply to E6 at all (only 7 feats ever), while some other stuff is even more important than in 20-level Tome games (nearly all characters are going to be played while between levels 3 and 5, so your first two feats need to define your character in that range). I'd kill off all the stupid feat taxes (every archer needs to take Point Blank Shot at level 1) and either remove or buff dodge, weapon focus, and the like.
    You bring up some good points, but one problem; all of the E6 games I've played have been starting at level one and working their way up, and one is still running into the epics. So 3-5 is not the range you have to worry about, it's 1-6+.

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    In feats in D&D 3.5, I think there are three solutions.
    1. Have each feat be it`s own, stand-alone feat, ala Frank & K.
    2. Have each feat build off of previous feats, ala heritor feats (my personal preference).
    3. Have feats build off of each other in short chains, each feat providing a unique and interesting addition ala Fantasycraft (I.e. no more weapon focus!).
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    So Gnorman, most handsome of E6 homebrewers, have you anything hidden away in that brilliant mind of yours?
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    I was going to PM you about it because I wanted to know, but then you posted it later. Elegant solution. Watch out for Necropolitans.
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf View Post
    So Gnorman, most handsome of E6 homebrewers, have you anything hidden away in that brilliant mind of yours?
    Not as such, no. I had to move this weekend, so I did not have much time to devote to other pursuits. I did also begin graduate school recently, and so have found my ability to dedicate time and effort to this project significantly lessened. I will try to settle in to my new routine and find the way to make it work. Please be patient with me.

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