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  1. - Top - End - #391
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnorman View Post
    I think allowing the battlefist to operate as a two-handed weapon at level 1 is reasonable, and have changed it accordingly. Strike the Heavens remains unchanged.
    Cool Definitely useful for the concept I have.

  2. - Top - End - #392
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    No one had any thoughts on my Charlatan? Or my swashbuckler greater power?
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Back to commenting on Archetypes...

    Poet
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    Banshee is quite flavorful and works well as a "voice is a weapon" concept. It's a decent archetype and unique.

    Bravado - Honestly, this is where I expected the duelist archetype to be found. While Bravado isn't what I expected, it's more or less decent. Unfortunately, its archetype powers really don't work very well together. Lesser - TWF, Moderate - AoO, Greater - Spring Attack. Each is a completely unique ability with no real synergy. While this isn't necessarily a problem, it forces the Bravado to try to cover too many styles at once or to focus on just one of his powers, especially with the Poet chassis abilities, which, again, none of synergize with the Bravado powers.

    Doomsinger has a debuff, a buff, and a minion. Like the Bravado, its abilities don't synergize well, but they do have some minor overlap... at least for five rounds. With all of his abilities having a duration of concentration + 5, he can't realistically maintain more than one at a time without completely draining his daily Inspiration uses.

    Skald is the Inspiration focused archetype and definitely needs to be kept. You really need an archetype that focuses on the "main" ability of the chassis, and this one fills that role quite well.

    Trickster has a minor debuff with a potential status effect at 6th and can grant a single attack if he focuses on feinting. Honestly, I don't like this archetype and feel it is rather underpowered. I really expected to see the archetype focus on misdirection and bluffing using Sleight of Hand and Bluff skills in combat. I don't understand the purpose of the debuff, as that's the Doomsinger's shtick. I would probably suggest moving this archetype to Scoundrel and reworking it to that end.


    Sage
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    Anatomist is perfect for the Sage. It's an Int based fighter, which is definitely needed as a Sage archetype, and it expands one of the main abilities of the class. Overall, a good archetype.

    Having written part of Investigator myself, I tend to like it. It's one of the few non-combat focused archetypes. While not the "strongest" archetype, it does give a unique character option not offered by the other classes.

    Monster Hunter seems the most out of place to me as part of the Sage. It really feels like it would fit better as a Gladiator or other combat focused archetype. The abilities, however, are decent if situational.

    Occultist is the one that gives me the most concern, as it essentially gains a form of unlimited spellcasting for the day but can also be completely useless depending on the situation. I really expected it to have some form of spellcasting, but not what it has. My idea for it would have been to give it X spell-like abilities for the day drawn from the mage classes usable a certain number of times. Moderate could be "absorbing" spells cast on him to recharge his SLAs. Greater could be a limited form of the current recasting ability. That's just my two cents though.

    Tutor seems brokenly powerful at low levels and completely useless at higher levels. Giving allies small bonuses and a bonus feat are great at 1st-3rd but really pretty trivial once you hit 6+. This is the archetype I would most suggest dropping or rewriting entirely.


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    Charlatan... nothing. Definitely the easiest to drop without any problems.

    Phantom is very stealth based and definitely a good focus for a Scoundrel archetype. It's the the exact direction I would have chosen to go with the abilities, but, in general, I think it's pretty good.

    Silencer is the poisoner archetype. It's definitely a focus needed in one of the classes, and the only place it really fits is here. That said, I think it's a really good archetype.

    Thief-Acrobat is a nice little archetype, but when you compare it to the other two for this class, it seems a bit sub par. Bonuses to movement skills and negating falling damage just don't really stack up to invisibility and empowered poisons. I'd add some other bonuses, like ignoring the -5 to Balance while moving at full speed, a Tumble check to stand as a free or swift action without provoking AoOs, ability to charge over difficult terrain, or even a dodge bonus to AC. It just needs a little bit more oomph to bring it up to standard but not so much that it is the definitive option.
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  4. - Top - End - #394
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    I took a look, and if you pick an eagle as your animal companion as a hunter, it can grow to medium size. Does that mean that a small-sized hunter could then ride the eagle? The hunter would need to weigh less than 43 pounds without boosting the eagle at all.
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  5. - Top - End - #395
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldest View Post
    I took a look, and if you pick an eagle as your animal companion as a hunter, it can grow to medium size. Does that mean that a small-sized hunter could then ride the eagle? The hunter would need to weigh less than 43 pounds without boosting the eagle at all.
    I see no problems with halflings riding eagles.
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  6. - Top - End - #396
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by absolmorph View Post
    I see no problems with halflings riding eagles.
    To be honest, I think it's an interesting idea and don't have an issue with it. Just something I worked out.
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  7. - Top - End - #397
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    I see no issues with using an animal companion as a mount. In fact, I usually see Rangers in 3.5 end up using their companion as a mount at least for initial movement into the battle to get the best location.
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  8. - Top - End - #398
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    I recall the old zealot (templar) has hostile spell resistance, rather than the regular spell resistance it has now. Was that chance intentional? It was (obviously) much more powerful before. I see it can be turned on and off as a free action, so I guess its not too much of an issue as long as you have good planning and communication.
    Last edited by stack; 2013-02-20 at 01:42 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #399
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Holocron Coder View Post
    Might also want to note any limitations that Flind gives as to the number of rerolls. As worded, it's possible to interpret that you can reroll infinitely (since each reroll is an "attack roll" still, you can keep rerolling until you get a 20).
    Doesn't the "once per day" already curb this?
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  10. - Top - End - #400
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    I'll try to catch up on comments when I get a chance (sorry, this week's been hectic). Some quick notes:

    OzzyKP: I haven't had a chance to look over your proposed archetypes in detail, but I will.

    Rizban: Thanks again for the edits and archetype comments. My instinct is to distill down to three even for the combat and skilled classes. Nothing's stopping anyone from retaining favorite archetypes, but I've found myself floundering pretty seriously on some. After I get the overhaul up and running I will still retain the old version on this thread (see, I knew there was a reason I reserved so many posts).

    Stack: My intention would be for the "hostile" spell resistance to remain. I'll try and shore up the wording so that is clear - after all, you can't technically take free actions on someone else's turn (I did not know this for so long), so that'd be a problem.

    Here's a table for proposed class changes. It does take a page from 4E in terms of organization, but don't let that fool you in other respects. 3.5 has this breakdown already, it's just not as apparent (or as complete).

    {table=head] | Martial | Primal | Divine | Arcane
    Combat|Fighter|Barbarian|Paladin|Duskblade
    Skilled|Rogue|Ranger|Monk|Bard
    Magic|Sorcerer|Druid|Cleric|Wizard[/table]

    Splitting off the roles makes them a bit easier to manage: the sorcerer, for example, will be the "Red Mage," specializing in blasting and transmutation magics. I may rename to "Warmage." Duskblade is the straight-up gish archetype that's always been missing from core. Ranger and Monk suffered from identity principles, and I think would be better purposed as "skilled" characters, an idea which admittedly may offend some traditions. The Wizard would be more of a Beguiler, while the Warlock (see below) would likely round out the casters as a Dread Necromancer analogue. I think the basic Beguiler/Dread Necromancer/Warmage idea is a good split for arcane casters, but the latter two need a bit of rounding out spell-list-wise. Most likely the "Eldritch" source (again, see below) would be moved up into the "core." I am having a touch of difficulty differentiating Assassin from Rogue (think Swashbuckler or Scout for the latter, probably), but I'll find a way. The assassin will probably be the stealthy, shadowy, poisons-and-daggers type of class, while the Rogue will be the acrobatic, charming, dueling-and-feinting type. Which is not to say that there won't be some overlap. Or perhaps the Noble could make a reappearance there?

    Monk may be renamed "Sage" as I might appropriate Monk for a psionic "source."

    The table could be expanded to include other subsystems as well:

    {table=head] | Eldritch | Psionic | Incarnum | Steampunk | OA|Al-Qadim|Dark Sun
    Combat|Hexblade|Monk|Soulborn|Mech-knight|Samurai|Corsair|Gladiator
    Skilled|Assassin|Lurk|Totemist|Operative|Ninja|Sa'luk|
    Magic|Warlock|Psion|Incarnate|Engineer|Wu Jen|Sha'ir|Templar[/table]

    This could allow me to expand the system incrementally while still having an overarching organization. Of course, you also get into the question of "why create a separate chassis for each incarnate class when you could do it with archetypes" which I admit I do not have a good answer for. Perhaps it'd be better to have, for example, a single Magic chassis and archetypes would control whether it was a Cleric or a Druid - see my "generic" classes. But that prevents a certain amount of specialization WITHIN the archetype, unless a feat-based system is implemented perhaps? I don't know. I'm spitballing.

  11. - Top - End - #401
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Frog Dragon View Post
    Doesn't the "once per day" already curb this?
    Totally didn't see that phrase the first time. Yup, is cool

  12. - Top - End - #402
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnorman View Post
    {snip}

    Here's a table for proposed class changes. It does take a page from 4E in terms of organization, but don't let that fool you in other respects. 3.5 has this breakdown already, it's just not as apparent (or as complete).

    {table=head] | Martial | Primal | Divine | Arcane
    Combat|Fighter|Barbarian|Paladin|Duskblade
    Skilled|Rogue|Ranger|Monk|Bard
    Magic|Sorcerer|Druid|Cleric|Wizard[/table]

    Splitting off the roles makes them a bit easier to manage: the sorcerer, for example, will be the "Red Mage," specializing in blasting and transmutation magics. I may rename to "Warmage." Duskblade is the straight-up gish archetype that's always been missing from core. Ranger and Monk suffered from identity principles, and I think would be better purposed as "skilled" characters, an idea which admittedly may offend some traditions. The Wizard would be more of a Beguiler, while the Warlock (see below) would likely round out the casters as a Dread Necromancer analogue. I think the basic Beguiler/Dread Necromancer/Warmage idea is a good split for arcane casters, but the latter two need a bit of rounding out spell-list-wise. Most likely the "Eldritch" source (again, see below) would be moved up into the "core." I am having a touch of difficulty differentiating Assassin from Rogue (think Swashbuckler or Scout for the latter, probably), but I'll find a way. The assassin will probably be the stealthy, shadowy, poisons-and-daggers type of class, while the Rogue will be the acrobatic, charming, dueling-and-feinting type. Which is not to say that there won't be some overlap. Or perhaps the Noble could make a reappearance there?

    Monk may be renamed "Sage" as I might appropriate Monk for a psionic "source."

    The table could be expanded to include other subsystems as well:

    {table=head] | Eldritch | Psionic | Incarnum | Steampunk | OA|Al-Qadim|Dark Sun
    Combat|Hexblade|Monk|Soulborn|Mech-knight|Samurai|Corsair|Gladiator
    Skilled|Assassin|Lurk|Totemist|Operative|Ninja|Sa'luk|
    Magic|Warlock|Psion|Incarnate|Engineer|Wu Jen|Sha'ir|Templar[/table]

    This could allow me to expand the system incrementally while still having an overarching organization. Of course, you also get into the question of "why create a separate chassis for each incarnate class when you could do it with archetypes" which I admit I do not have a good answer for. Perhaps it'd be better to have, for example, a single Magic chassis and archetypes would control whether it was a Cleric or a Druid - see my "generic" classes. But that prevents a certain amount of specialization WITHIN the archetype, unless a feat-based system is implemented perhaps? I don't know. I'm spitballing.
    I'm not sure I understand where you're going with this. Are you saying that you're going to have just Fighter/Rogue/Mage generic classes with a lots of archetypes, namely Martial, Primal, etc. or are you saying you'll have a single Martial class with a Combat, a Skilled, and a Magic archetype under it with exactly one archetype of each for each "source"? Based on what you said, it honestly doesn't look like either one of those, but I really don't understand your thoughts or even your end goal or motivation for doing this.

    Stating what you're trying to accomplish with this major change rather than stating a few random thoughts about how you're going to accomplish it would be rather helpful.
    Last edited by Rizban; 2013-02-20 at 11:51 PM.
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  13. - Top - End - #403
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Rizban View Post
    I'm not sure I understand where you're going with this. Are you saying that you're going to have just Fighter/Rogue/Mage generic classes with a lots of archetypes, namely Martial, Primal, etc. or are you saying you'll have a single Martial class with a Combat, a Skilled, and a Magic archetype under it with exactly one archetype of each for each "source"? Based on what you said, it honestly doesn't look like either one of those, but I really don't understand your thoughts or even your end goal or motivation for doing this.

    Stating what you're trying to accomplish with this major change rather than stating a few random thoughts about how you're going to accomplish it would be rather helpful.
    As planned, neither, though it would be feasible to have one Combat chassis and make four or five archetypes corresponding to each one. But the way I'm approaching it at this point is to have each one be a separate class. The "sources" are just a way of organizing them by flavor, and the distinctions there are honestly not all that important. The Combat/Skilled/Magic split would actually have in-game effect: Combat classes would all have access to the Tactics subsystem, Skilled classes the Tricks subsystem, and Magic classes traditional spells.

    I'm doing it to streamline the classes and remove ones I've felt were weak or duplicative. I want to consolidate some of the classes (Zealot and Sentinel come to mind), split up a few others (the Noble is a little ill-plotted, and I think would be better split into Rogue / Bard archetypes), and remove one entirely (the Engineer, whom I have a fondness for, but really doesn't fit). What I'm trying to avoid is separate subsystems for individual classes (say, Hunter traps or Engineer inventions) and build them into a common subsystem that would be accessible by all within the group, and then have each one "specialize." This would also allow me to give Combat and Skilled classes abilities that can compete with spells, and hopefully avoid system bloat.

    So a Ranger would have access to general skill trick disciplines (as would the Rogue, Monk, and Bard), but have a specialty called Wilderness Lore or something like that.

    The other option is to keep things as they are, but overhaul a few classes and consolidate archetypes until I get to the sweet spot.

  14. - Top - End - #404
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    I'm still not sure I totally understand what changes you're proposing or what the final goal is. Could you maybe provide an example? I don't mean a full class, just maybe a class outline or two and some sample archetypes or whatever it is you're thinking. I guess I don't really understand what the difference is from what is already in place and what it is you're planning to do...
    Last edited by Rizban; 2013-02-21 at 01:50 AM.
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  15. - Top - End - #405
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Rizban View Post
    I'm still not sure I totally understand what changes you're proposing or what the final goal is. Could you maybe provide an example? I don't mean a full class, just maybe a class outline or two and some sample archetypes or whatever it is you're thinking. I guess I don't really understand what the difference is from what is already in place and what it is you're planning to do...
    There honestly won't be a ton of changes. Most classes will remain, albeit slightly tweaked. A couple of new classes will be introduced (people have been clamoring for a base class Barbarian for a while now), a couple removed, a couple consolidated. Tactics and Tricks will factor in pretty heavily. The vast majority of changes will be put in place to introduce the system. There might be a little bit of motivation on my part to make the connections between my versions and 3.5 base classes more apparent, if only for ease of use.

    So let's take a Paladin, for example.

    My thoughts on the paladin are that it's mainly a buttload of passive bonuses, which are kind of boring. So I want to give it Tactics, which let it DO things in combat very similar to maneuvers.

    The Paladin has access to standard Tactics, plus its own special Holy Spirit discipline. The class chassis would give it a few passives, but most of the stereotypical paladin abilities would be in the Holy Spirit discipline - laying on hands, smiting evil, et cetera.

    Archetypes would be the Champion (excels at protection and defense), the Templar (excels at anti-mage tactics), and the Hospitaller (excels at healing and buffing allies). The Sentinel class, as it were, would likely be subsumed by the Champion archetype (for protection) and a Fighter archetype (for the battlefield control).

    Or a Rogue:

    The Rogue has access to standard Tricks, as well as the special Gambler's Luck set. The class chassis would include things like Sneak Attack and Evasion and increased flanking bonuses, all the things we know and love about the Scoundrel.

    Archetypes would be the Swashbuckler (excels at straight-up combat), the Phantom (excels at stealth and acrobatics), and the Assassin (poisons and sneak attack; would probably replaced if Assassin is made its own base class).

  16. - Top - End - #406
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    So you're more or less planning to go with a Tome of Battle style approach to "balancing" the classes, giving them spells that are called something else?
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  17. - Top - End - #407
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Rizban View Post
    So you're more or less planning to go with a Tome of Battle style approach to "balancing" the classes, giving them spells that are called something else?
    That about sums it up, yeah. Only I'm putting together my own system with a different mechanic.

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Huh. I was going to start up my prestige feats again, but I think I'll wait till I see what the new system holds. A pity, since I had a few written out from a boring accounting class.
    Also, will people be able to get Tricks/Tactics from other classes lists, by spending feats? Probably not the higher ones, just the basics.
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Mulling a character and came across something;

    Esoteric -Transcendent

    Lesser Archetype Power: Psionic feats that require a transcendent to maintain psionic focus to gain their benefit (such as Psionic Dodge or Speed of Thought) have their numerical effects doubled.


    This is nice. Earth power ( Races of Stone, p. 138) has a numeric effect (reduced PP cost by 1, min 1), is [psionic], and requires psionic focus. Makes the bestow power loop trivially easy if you take it with expanded knowledge at 6 (or at level 3 with the psionic node).

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnorman View Post
    That about sums it up, yeah. Only I'm putting together my own system with a different mechanic.
    I don't know... It seems to me that ramping up powers and abilities to be stronger is kind of the opposite intention of E6's design goals. It's your project if that's the direction you want to go, but I would have to say that it's not where my preferences would go. Further, if you're planning to make a system of "clicky" abilities like 4e or an MMO, then I can tell you in advance that I won't enjoy it as much as I enjoy the current system.

    From what I understand of your proposal, you're going to have multiple archetypes for Fighter, multiple archetypes for Rogue, multiple archetypes for Sorcerer, multiple archetypes for Ranger, multiple archetypes for Druid, and multiple archetypes for <CLASSNAME>.

    With three archetypes each, assuming you use exactly the class list you've posted, that's 32 classes and 96 total archetypes. What you're talking about here is less a reworking of your existing material and more a totally new system heavily based on the original 3.5 source materials with a few pieces of your original worked into it.
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  21. - Top - End - #411
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by stack View Post
    Mulling a character and came across something;

    Esoteric -Transcendent

    Lesser Archetype Power: Psionic feats that require a transcendent to maintain psionic focus to gain their benefit (such as Psionic Dodge or Speed of Thought) have their numerical effects doubled.


    This is nice. Earth power ( Races of Stone, p. 138) has a numeric effect (reduced PP cost by 1, min 1), is [psionic], and requires psionic focus. Makes the bestow power loop trivially easy if you take it with expanded knowledge at 6 (or at level 3 with the psionic node).
    Oof. I might have to do something about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rizban View Post
    I don't know... It seems to me that ramping up powers and abilities to be stronger is kind of the opposite intention of E6's design goals. It's your project if that's the direction you want to go, but I would have to say that it's not where my preferences would go. Further, if you're planning to make a system of "clicky" abilities like 4e or an MMO, then I can tell you in advance that I won't enjoy it as much as I enjoy the current system.

    From what I understand of your proposal, you're going to have multiple archetypes for Fighter, multiple archetypes for Rogue, multiple archetypes for Sorcerer, multiple archetypes for Ranger, multiple archetypes for Druid, and multiple archetypes for <CLASSNAME>.

    With three archetypes each, assuming you use exactly the class list you've posted, that's 32 classes and 96 total archetypes. What you're talking about here is less a reworking of your existing material and more a totally new system heavily based on the original 3.5 source materials with a few pieces of your original worked into it.
    Well, in all fairness, the current project has 20+ base classes and ~100 archetypes. Likely, I would pare it down to a core 12-15 classes. And I'm not necessarily trying to make combat/skilled classes more "powerful" per se, but offer them a wider range of abilities to draw on. But I appreciate your candor and will take it under consideration. Your points about the E6 environment are valid - there's less work to be done to balance the classes simply by virtue of the level limit. And I do want to avoid delving into 4E territory, though to a certain extent I agree with the design goals therein - at least in the "every class should be able to contribute" aspect. I just want to move away from passive abilities and find more ways for non-magical classes to actively contribute to combat beyond move, attack, repeat.

    I'm not opposed to a less drastic overhaul, though a few classes and archetypes are still in need of a serious retooling.

  22. - Top - End - #412
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnorman View Post
    Well, in all fairness, the current project has 20+ base classes and ~100 archetypes.
    Which is why looking at essentially discarding that work and doing another 32 + 96 seemed a bit shocking to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnorman View Post
    Likely, I would pare it down to a core 12-15 classes.
    I have no problems with paring down on classes or even with adding new ones. I would think, however, that before doing any of that, the best design move is to figure out just what you want from each of your classes. I am suggesting a kind of ground up rebuilding, in that you start from the beginning, figure out the end goal, then go back to what you already have and mold it to fit that design paradigm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnorman View Post
    And I'm not necessarily trying to make combat/skilled classes more "powerful" per se, but offer them a wider range of abilities to draw on. But I appreciate your candor and will take it under consideration.
    <snip>
    to a certain extent I agree with the design goals therein - at least in the "every class should be able to contribute" aspect. I just want to move away from passive abilities and find more ways for non-magical classes to actively contribute to combat beyond move, attack, repeat.
    I think that this is the part I'm having the most trouble with personally. I have no problem with having a few additional options, but we already have Attack, Bull Rush, Charge, Disarm, Feint, Trip, Grapple, Overrun, and Sunder plus numerous other abilities, feats, and options that trigger off of those special attacks or allow those attacks in other situations.
    And, frankly, there are players who like passive abilities and the so called "mindless" hack and slash. I think a good portion of the rebellion against 4e was due to effectively making all the classes into mini mages with MMO style abilities. Not that I'm saying that is your goal or what your end result will be.

    I am saying that fundamentally changing the way something works for the sake of "balance" is not always the best option. Sometimes, the better option is to take things away from the stronger class rather than to add things to the weaker one. Just look at the development of D&D Next. From what they've released, it appears to have basically turned to a mishmash of endless rules and trying to add a little bit of everything to everything else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnorman View Post
    I'm not opposed to a less drastic overhaul, though a few classes and archetypes are still in need of a serious retooling.
    Agreed.
    Last edited by Rizban; 2013-02-23 at 07:50 AM.
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    I'm with Rizban. I like the way things work currently. Instead of simply duplicating established classes, you introduce new and interesting class concepts like the Noble and Engineer. If the point is to beef up the non-magic classes, then just beef them up, don't scrap it all and start over.

    And I'm one of those people who LOVES passive abilities! I'd hate to reduce all classes to different types of spell casters. There is certainly a place for skill tricks and tactics, use them here and there to beef up weak classes, but don't replace all the interesting stuff you've done so far.
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that way.

    I actually just came up with an idea of how to increase difference between individual characters geometrically. It's based pretty heavily on where I saw this project going when I first read it. I think I'm going to develop it out a bit and see how it works before I post more about it though...
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Alright, so, I've been playing around with the idea I had last night, and it's shaping up a lot more nicely than I expected. It's definitely strongly derivative of Gnorman's work here, but it takes things in quite a different direction than the way he's been doing it and the way that he's describing wanting to go. If he gives permission, I'll end up posting it sometime soon as I get it to the point where I feel it can be posted. If not, well, I'm not going to just crib his stuff without permission and will need to start over with this idea from scratch...

    The following spoiler contains a break down of my design process for a redesigned Brawler class. I've spoilered it, because it has little to nothing to do with the existing thread as is very much a wall of text.
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    Basically, my design is to take the base classes he's defined and figure out what the "core" focus of each class is. Develop that core, and only that core, to make a very focused and specific class. Each class will have two unique specialties that are either exclusive to the class or that they excel at far more than any other class can as well as a few minor abilities, both active and passive, that support the core mechanic. I decided that core mechanics should, in some way, grow with the class, while the supporting features can, and usually should, just provide static bonuses or abilities.

    For example, the Brawler as it exists now is a kind of fusion of the 3.5 Monk class with a few other elements to try to make it more generic. I really like it and would play it, but I didn't feel that this was the core of the class. Looking at the Monk, the Brawler, and similar style classes, the core can be described as a lightly armored, highly mobile, mid hit point, damage dealer. The two core elements of the class then are Mobility/Speed and High Damage Attacks.

    I took these core elements and determined what existing game mechanics can be used to exemplify these mechanics. This is some, but not all, of what I found:
    {table=head]Mobility/Speed|Damage Output
    Dodge/Mobility feat chain|Power Attack feat chain
    Fast Movement|Critical Hits
    Evasion|Precision Damage
    Uncanny Dodge|Multiple Attacks
    Movement as swift action|Size Increases
    Skill penalties for movement|[/table]

    I looked at my list of options and picked the ones I felt were key to the build. Nearly all of the Mobility/Speed options above were included, as I felt most were of minor benefit and could be used to fill out the first 5 class levels. Damage, however, I felt needed to be much more specifically focused that what I had listed. Size increases really didn't fit with the class concept I had of a light, agile skirmisher, and precision damage, I felt, was important enough that it needed to be contained elsewhere as a core mechanic. That left multiple attacks and critical hits, both of which I decided to include.

    After doing some experimenting with a few designs (and designing a couple other classes too), I found a nice balance that I felt embodied the concept of what I was trying to attain. The result is here:
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    {table=head] | Base Attack Bonus | Fort Save | Ref Save | Will Save | Special | Archetype Power | Critical Modifier | Fast Movement
    1st | +0 | +2 | +2 | +0 | Critical strike, fast movement, skilled acrobat | Lesser | +1/- | +5 ft
    2nd | +1 | +3 | +3 | +0 | Flurry of strikes | | +1/- | +10 ft
    3rd | +2 | +3 | +3 | +1 | Penetrating critical | Moderate | +1/+1 | +10 ft
    4th | +3 | +4 | +4 | +1 | Evasion, uncanny dodge | | +1/+1 | +15 ft
    5th | +3 | +4 | +4 | +1 | Improved flurry | | +2/+1 | +15 ft
    6th | +4 | +5 | +5 | +2 | Rapid strikes | Greater | +2/+1 | +20 ft[/table]I don't intend to detail the entire class here, as that's not the point of this post; however, I will touch on explanations for a few things.

    Medium BAB - Yes, it's a melee class. Yes, it has 3/4 BAB. This is intentional as a balancing mechanic due to the critical hit mechanic and balance issues with the other classes. It also limits Power Attack. The class hits slightly less often, but it hits much harder and crits much more often.

    d8 HD, light armor, simple weapons - It's mid hit points (considered lowering to d6, but felt too glass cannon), light armor, and small weapons only. It can't just stand in place and tank. That's not the point. It also relies on damage multiplication rather than larger weapons.

    Critical Strike - Weapons gain +X/+Y to critical range/multiplier. X to crit range, and Y to multiplier. Also, +class level to confirming crits.

    Fast Movement - listed bonus to speed.

    Acrobat - reduce movement penalties to Balance/Tumble

    Flurry - extra attacks with proficient weapons, -2 penalty removed at 5th level.

    Penetrating Crit - do half crit damage to crit immune

    Rapid Strikes - Three option capstone functionally similar to existing classes. 1/encounter rather than 1/day.

    As intended, it's a very narrow focus class with a very obvious role to play, that of the light, agile skirmisher.

    Now, you may be thinking that it's too focused, but I disagree. You see, that's where the archetypes come in. I intend to allow each class to take two archetypes. Rather, I intend for there to be two different kinds of archetypes. You have your Class Archetype and you have your Background.

    Archetypes are going to have a major change to them. Rather than having a list of exclusive archetypes for each class, archetypes will (mostly) be open to any class. Some will be restricted, of course, but not all. So you could have a Brawler and a Gladiator in the same party with the same class archetype. Each archetype will be designed such that it complements a particular base class, but you can still take it with a different class. For example, the Brawler and Gladiator could both potentially take the Brute archetype, allowing you to have two very different classes and play styles that utilize the same rage mechanic. Brute helps both deal more damage, brute helps both be more mobile, and allows both to full attack on a charge. All are abilities that both can use. Of course, the Gladiator is likely most interested in the Strength increase and the pounce ability, while the Brawler is likely most interested in the movement bonuses and Constitution increase.


    Now comes the second part, Background. Each character can (if the DM chooses to include them) select a Background. All backgrounds will be open to all characters regardless of class, as they are entirely independent of the class. You might even think of them as "mini-gestalt." Each background will take the form of a class feature that increases as you level up but is never as powerful as a class focused on that.

    Some example backgrounds just off the top of my head could be things such as:
    • Animal Friend - Gain animal companion as a druid of 1/2 your character level.
    • Apprentice - Gain 3 cantrips of a chosen Mage class. Cast X times/day. +Y to Concentration, Spellcraft, and UMD checks. Gain 1 1st-level spell X/day at 3rd or 4th level.
    • Trained Soldier - Gain proficiency with armor one type heavier than you already have (medium if you have light). Gain proficiency with one martial weapon of your choice. If you have a class feature that is limited to a type of armor (no armor, light, medium) it works in one type heavier armor with no penalty.
    • Natural Healer - Gain +X to all Heal checks and lay on hands as a paladin of your level.
    These are obviously not balanced or well thought out, as I just came up with these specifics as I was typing this out. Still, they should convey the concept well enough. The idea is to have three levels of abilities:
    1. Tightly focused class abilities
    2. More widely focused archetype abilities
    3. Limited secondary abilities


    Let's take the Brawler (Brute) from above and make a few examples.
    • Brawler (Brute) / Natural Healer - Here we have a fast skirmisher who focuses on dealing the most damage possible with backup abilities to temporarily increase his life and heal himself when he gets hit.
    • Brawler (Brute) / Animal Friend - Here we have basically the same character; however, he now instead is a little squishier (no healing) but has an animal ally to give him flanking bonuses and deal more damage, his primary concern.
    • Brawler (Brute) / Apprentice - Here we have the same raging skirmisher, but he has a few magic options to help him out. Perhaps he picked up grease to help incapacitate his enemies or divine favor to further boost his attack and damage.
    • Brawler (Brute) / Trained Solider - Same guy, but now his fast movement and other armor restricted abilities now work in medium armor, and he can use a better weapon.
    And there you go, you now have 4 different characters using 4 different sets of tactics and play styles using the exact same class and archetype before you even make decisions about armor, weapons, and feats! They all have the same specific focus of being the party skirmisher and are a primary damage dealer, and they all have to be careful about staying mobile and avoiding attacks, but they each have a unique ability that the others don't that allows them to implement things a little bit differently.
    Last edited by Rizban; 2013-02-27 at 02:06 AM.
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  26. - Top - End - #416
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Rizban, you have my permission to adapt/crib/steal whatever you want to. I don't have the time right now to take a fine-tooth comb over it, but a cursory glance suggests that you've definitely accomplished what you set out to accomplish - a narrower class nevertheless devilishly effective in its niche.

    To me, the Brawler was definitely "mobile skirmisher," though some of the archetypes went against that type. It was definitely a consideration towards the monk class, and what people wanted out of it. Could that have led me to spread it too thin? Absolutely. The Brawler archetypes still need some honing. I don't know that I would do it the same way, as I prefer broader classes, but I can't really fault what you've done.

    I think my mental pendulum is swinging back the other way on Capstones, which I may have on a per encounter basis again. This would help address both the concerns about class power as well as offer the active abilities I was hoping to accentuate.

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Thanks, Gnorman. Glad that you looked over what I wrote.

    Where you went with a broader class and narrower archetypes, I'm going to end up doing the reverse. The archetypes will still be relatively narrow, but they'll be a bit beefier than they are currently.

    I'm definitely going to have an unarmed archetype that is a nod to the monk, as I intend to have an archetype for pretty much every base class. I just felt like that was something I wanted to move to the archetypes rather than on the base classes.

    What I've done with capstones is to make sure each has 3 abilities that provide very different bonuses, but each is essentially an empowered ability of the class itself. For the brawler, it would be a choice of an extra flurry attack, better mobility, or better crit capability. Based on the exact effect, the activation action and duration are different. For the brawler's abilities, I have each activate as a free action and last for 3 rounds; however, this is not standard activation/duration for all classes.

    I'm still keeping it to one capstone use per encounter. You can pick any of the three, but you only get one of the three in each encounter.
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnorman View Post
    I think my mental pendulum is swinging back the other way on Capstones, which I may have on a per encounter basis again. This would help address both the concerns about class power as well as offer the active abilities I was hoping to accentuate.
    I'm agreeing with the per encounter cap, since I prefer pretty much all abilities to be run off a per-encounter basis. It seems like that can be far easily balanced than a per day list, since you could face many, many foes or just one, and the only limit would be your health, and vancian casters.
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldest View Post
    I'm agreeing with the per encounter cap, since I prefer pretty much all abilities to be run off a per-encounter basis. It seems like that can be far easily balanced than a per day list, since you could face many, many foes or just one, and the only limit would be your health, and vancian casters.
    I'd been thinking about offering a per-encounter schedule for even the casters, though that would be more difficult to balance.

    While I am rethinking Tactics and Tricks, I'm still interested in using Inspiration/Rage points as a resource for mundane classes (except for the Engineer, who obviously uses his own mechanics, both literally and figuratively). Sussing this out will require time and dedication I currently do not have, as I am steadily approaching finals week. Over Spring Break, however, I intend to devote some time to this much-neglected project!

    Something I've been kicking around for the Noble class to make for a more modular system is to have Minion Points, which would be functionally very similar to Incarnum. You could invest points in minions to make them stronger, or even give them class levels like the tyrant's moderate ability. So you could have a large but weak horde, or one sturdy henchman. As it is, summoning minions willy-nilly is fine and all, but it could use a bit more direction and elegance. Still, I don't know that basing a class around Leadership is going to be a great idea.

    I spitball a lot here. Forgive me.

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Can you please keep the current versions of your stuff around, if you're going to change them?

    So, just in case, if someone wants to use the old versions, they can actually find them?
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