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  1. - Top - End - #421
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    I second Amechra's statement. I DMed a game from back when you still had pictures up, and my group loved them. Now this is spiralling out way further from what it was, and...I dunno, my group liked the older ones better (the old campaign ended before the pictures were removed, sorry for the vague time-references, I don't remember exactly when it was)
    "Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation of the first link on one memorable day" --Charles Dickens

  2. - Top - End - #422
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    Can you please keep the current versions of your stuff around, if you're going to change them?

    So, just in case, if someone wants to use the old versions, they can actually find them?
    Quote Originally Posted by Conor77 View Post
    I second Amechra's statement. I DMed a game from back when you still had pictures up, and my group loved them. Now this is spiralling out way further from what it was, and...I dunno, my group liked the older ones better (the old campaign ended before the pictures were removed, sorry for the vague time-references, I don't remember exactly when it was)
    I won't be removing any old versions from the compendium, don't worry. I recognize that not everyone is going to be thrilled with every change, and I'll do my best to respect that. You can see, if you scroll down, that I've kept outdated archetypes around for archival purposes. I would do so with classes as well.

    And don't jump to conclusions just yet. I haven't decided whether or not I'm going to change anything major at all, let alone overhaul the system. I'm just kicking ideas around for expansion.

  3. - Top - End - #423
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnorman View Post
    I won't be removing any old versions from the compendium, don't worry. I recognize that not everyone is going to be thrilled with every change, and I'll do my best to respect that. You can see, if you scroll down, that I've kept outdated archetypes around for archival purposes. I would do so with classes as well.

    And don't jump to conclusions just yet. I haven't decided whether or not I'm going to change anything major at all, let alone overhaul the system. I'm just kicking ideas around for expansion.
    Awesome.

    This made me think of something, though (and I seem to be in a verbose mood): do you know what game designers hate the most about their jobs?

    Finishing.

    Because, you see, when you finish a project, you can't get all of it done. You just can't. There are quest lines that, despite being the coolest thing ever, don't connect with the plot, or are too buggy, or would take too long to implement. There are character designs that would be amazing, if they could only revamp the lighting engine to allow this in a timely manner. They had the amazing minion feature planned and halfway programmed, but the deadline shifted up to make room for a German localization team to work their magic. They can't make it perfect. And this hurts. Because when you see a great game? They see one that could have been perfect, if they could have done everything. This is the reason why so many modding projects fall through: they are doing this for fun, so there's no reason to cut off development and just ship the dang thing. So the programmers and designers fiddle with this and that, tweaking and perfecting, and never actually finish.

    You might want to set an end-goal for yourself. You can always make "expansions", adding in this type of class or that kind of feature. But sooner or later, you will need to call the project done. Call it the core project, maybe, with just the skilled, the magical, and the combatitive. Leave aside the Warlocks, the Meldshapers, the Psionics, the races. Leave the Prestige Feats to others (hopefully me, I do look forward to making them). But you need a stable core to build around. You have a very small one, with the E6 and the archetypes. But you had that at the start. I'm not saying you should rush: feel free to set the end goal in 2 years. But you should start planning for the end.

    Hopefully I didn't make you angry at all. The above is just what I'd suggest to make sure that your project survives.
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  4. - Top - End - #424
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    That doesn't make me angry at all. In fact, it encapsulates almost exactly my feelings on the subject, as I was musing on it earlier today. I don't want to be finished. But you're right, I do have to "finish" a core. I can build on that, build around it, introduce new classes, archetypes, subsystems, and feats, but I do have to have a finished block of core material with which to do so.

    I think a core 15 classes is the number to shoot for (even that is very generous compared to 3.5's 11). I've already got that, if you consider the psionic classes to be an expansion. They need some work, true, but they're a good base to work with. I'm not going to throw them out. The only one that truly feels like it doesn't fit is the Engineer, with its own major subsystem and unique mechanics. But on the other hand, that's the class I'm the most proud of, because I think it is unique. And I think with the popularity of the Artificer, the archetype has a lot of traction, perhaps even enough to include it in core. I also regret not having a base Barbarian class, because I know that's a very popular archetype that gets short shrift here.

    So I may alter things a bit. There are so many fiddly mechanics, like Hunter traps and Zealot auras and inventions and minions, and sometimes that strikes me as inelegant. I guess what I wanted out of my proposed revisions was a unifying mechanic. Vancian spellcasting is a unifying mechanic. Maneuvers are a unifying mechanic. Skill tricks are a unifying mechanic (sort of). That's what I was shooting for. But maybe you're right; maybe I should embrace the quirkiness as an advantage, not a problem.

  5. - Top - End - #425
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Since you didn't build a unifying mechanic into the system in the first place, you might want to embrace the quirkiness. The amount of revision necessary to ret-con one into the system is probably not worth it if the system functions well without it. I personally find unifying systems to be more elegant design, but I do feel that things usually need to be built in at or close to the ground level for maximum effectiveness.

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  6. - Top - End - #426
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnorman View Post
    So I may alter things a bit. There are so many fiddly mechanics, like Hunter traps and Zealot auras and inventions and minions, and sometimes that strikes me as inelegant. I guess what I wanted out of my proposed revisions was a unifying mechanic. Vancian spellcasting is a unifying mechanic. Maneuvers are a unifying mechanic. Skill tricks are a unifying mechanic (sort of). That's what I was shooting for. But maybe you're right; maybe I should embrace the quirkiness as an advantage, not a problem.
    I'm down with the quirkiness.
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  7. - Top - End - #427
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by OzzyKP View Post
    I'm down with the quirkiness.
    What about the sickness?

    And to stay OT, I'm a fan of the quirkiness as well - when there's a unifying factor, classes can have a tendency to just be different flavors of the same thing, while the quirkiness can help them stand apart from each other.
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  8. - Top - End - #428
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by ForzaFiori View Post
    What about the sickness?
    Uh wah ah ah ah!
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  9. - Top - End - #429
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    So I haven't really decided what to do with this idea, but I was struck by the "Punish" mechanic in the Black Knight thread. I thought it was very elegant, and it inspired me to come up with a new base class. It could be turned into an archetype pretty easily, though. Anyway, here it is.

    The Blackguard

    HD: d10
    Class Skills: Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Heal, Intimidate, Listen, Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Knowledge (religion), Move Silently, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Spot
    Skill Points: 4 + Int per level (4x at 1st)

    {table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

    1st|+1|+2|+0|+2|Frightful Visage, Punish +1d6

    2nd|+2|+3|+0|+3|Aura of Despair, Better to Be Feared Than Loved

    3rd|+3|+3|+1|+3|Bonus Feat, Punish +2d6

    4th|+4|+4|+1|+4|Aura of Fear, Ravager

    5th|+5|+4|+1|+4|Cower Before Me, Punish +3d6

    6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+5|Dread Warrior, Blood Feast[/table]

    Proficiencies: Blackguards are proficient with simple and martial weapons. They are also proficient with all armor and shields, including tower shields.

    Frightful Visage: A blackguard may demoralize a foe as a swift action.

    Punish: When attacking a foe who is shaken, frightened, or panicked, the blackguard deals an additional 1d6 damage. This increases to 2d6 at 3rd level and 3d6 at 5th level.

    Aura of Despair: A blackguard radiates an aura of unease and despair, out to 5 feet per class level. Any opponent caught in this aura takes a penalty on all saves equal to the blackguard's Charisma modifier.

    Better to Be Feared Than Loved: A successful intimidate check by a blackguard does not cause the target's attitude to shift to unfriendly or hostile afterwards. In addition, a blackguard no longer takes a penalty on Intimidate for being of a smaller size than his target.

    Bonus Feat: A blackguard may select a fighter feat as a bonus feat. Once per day, he may select a different fighter feat for which he qualifies and swap his current feat out for that one. For the purposes of qualifying, the blackguard counts as a fighter of his class level.

    Aura of Fear: In addition to reducing saves, being caught in the blackguard's aura of despair now causes opponents to make a Will save or be shaken for as long as they remain within it. The DC is equal to 10 + 1/2 the blackguard's HD + the blackguard's Charisma modifier. An opponent who successfully saves against this ability is immune to it for 24 hours.

    Ravager: A blackguard who successfully drops an opponent to -10 hit points is filled with the mad rush of the kill. For a number of rounds equal to his Charisma bonus, he acts as if under the effects of a haste spell. This is an extraordinary ability. This ability can only be triggered by killing opponents who have at least half as many hit dice as the blackguard himself.

    Cower Before Me: Anytime a blackguard would cause an opponent to be shaken, that opponent becomes frightened instead.

    Dread Warrior: A blackguard may inflict fear on even the stoutest of hearts. Opponents normally immune to fear lose such immunity within the blackguard's aura of despair.

    Blood Feast: Whenever a blackguard deals damage with his Punish ability, he regains a number of hit points equal to his Charisma modifier. This cannot take him above his normal maximum total.

  10. - Top - End - #430
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Hey,

    Excellent work here on the whole and love the way you went about building this. I'm working on a E6 game with a setting built to it myself and a wiki for it over time and was wondering if you would be okay with me putting the classes and such there?

  11. - Top - End - #431
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by coboney View Post
    Hey,

    Excellent work here on the whole and love the way you went about building this. I'm working on a E6 game with a setting built to it myself and a wiki for it over time and was wondering if you would be okay with me putting the classes and such there?
    Thanks! Use whatever you like as far as I'm concerned. As a courtesy, I would request accreditation and a link back to this page. Also, I'd love to see the setting.

  12. - Top - End - #432
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Thanks.

    Its going to be a bit (can't do as much typing as I want right now) but I definitely will do that.

    The setting as a rough outline here is designed to be an exploration theme and I tend to a gray and gray morality. There is the old world which has a somewhat European feel - from there several expeditions have been sent and encampments made.

    The New World (I need to do actual naming as inspiration comes :P) i set up with different races, tribes and goals all around. There's issues from between the different colonies, between the colonies and the natives, and the hidden groups there as well. Its designed to be more character driven rather then a single plot as there's all these issues going on and the pcs for it are one of many factions there influencing things - and what they do can influence what those other groups do and cascading effects.

  13. - Top - End - #433
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Giving the brawler's grapple archetype a constrict attack doesn't mean much, by the RAW a monk can already deal unarmed damage in a grapple. All that does is let the brawler do double damage when he starts a grapple.
    I make games.

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  14. - Top - End - #434
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Hey, big fan of this compendium. I love the archetypes for E6. I feel like they add the flavor that you would lose from prestige classes not being a large part of E6.

    Now Arcane Archer is one of my favorite concepts though I hate the 3.5 class. I thought that it would fit thematically as an archetype for the red mage. This is a rough version and subject to revision and critique but I thought it would look something like this:

    Red Mage Archetype

    Arcane Archer


    Bonus Spells:
    1: Guided Shot, Arrow Mind
    2: Hunter’s Mercy, Hawkeye
    3: Dolorous blow, Weapon of energy
    Capstone SLA: Arrow Storm

    Lesser Archetype Power: When you use Combat Panache, you may make a ranged attack with a bow instead of a melee attack. If you have the rapid shot feat you may make two ranged attacks (at a -2 penalty to the attack rolls) and cast a spell as a full-round action. In addition you may use your intelligence modifier for ranged attack rolls instead of your dexterity.
    Moderate Archetype Power: You may conjure an arrow of pure arcane energy as a free action that can be fired from any bow. These arrows have a +1 enhancement bonus. For each arrow you create, you may choose additional weapon abilities. As often as you’d like, you may choose Flaming, Frost, Shock, Corrosive, Screaming, Merciful, Seeking, Distance, Spell Storing, Ghost Touch, or Revealing. At level 6 you may choose two of the previous abilities.
    Greater Archetype Power: You may expend one of your spell slots as a swift action to boost the potency of your ranged weapon attacks for 1 round. You gain an attack bonus equal to the level of the spell you expended and twice the spell level in bonus damage.
    Last edited by Darkweave31; 2013-03-20 at 09:45 PM.
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  15. - Top - End - #435
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    If the mage archetypes are remotely based on MtG, as they seem to be, having the Green Mage be optionally Arcane/Divine seems to make a good deal of sense to me? Perhaps with Divine/Wis stat and Arcane/Int based? There's ample examples in the lore for both depending slightly on the setting.

    And as I happen to like overgrown lizards, are dragons suitably overpowered? (They should be unabashedly OP IMNSHO. No sense to them otherwise. Like, dragon ~= elf caster, except it's also an ogre and not dumb. Class+race combo is a brilliant way to go about it definitely.)

  16. - Top - End - #436
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Komatik View Post
    If the mage archetypes are remotely based on MtG, as they seem to be,
    I got the impression that they were based more on Final Fantasy jobs.
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  17. - Top - End - #437
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Komatik View Post
    If the mage archetypes are remotely based on MtG, as they seem to be, having the Green Mage be optionally Arcane/Divine seems to make a good deal of sense to me? Perhaps with Divine/Wis stat and Arcane/Int based? There's ample examples in the lore for both depending slightly on the setting.

    And as I happen to like overgrown lizards, are dragons suitably overpowered? (They should be unabashedly OP IMNSHO. No sense to them otherwise. Like, dragon ~= elf caster, except it's also an ogre and not dumb. Class+race combo is a brilliant way to go about it definitely.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Rizban View Post
    I got the impression that they were based more on Final Fantasy jobs.
    A bit of column A, a bit of column B. Definitely more MtG than FF (this may be why the Hyperborean still exists, despite it being wildly off-theme for the Blue Mage). But they also map pretty well to pre-existing D&D classes, if the wizard/sorcerer was split into a slightly altered beguiler/dread necromancer/warmage breakdown.

    As to the divine/arcane split: generally I find this arbitrary and not necessary to propagate. I made them all "arcane" technically because none of them are overtly dependent on divine sources.

    And I think dragons are pretty dang overpowered as a class. Enough that I would not use them unless in an all-dragon game, for example.

  18. - Top - End - #438
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Any chance you'll be adding a Thuamaturge archetype to the White Mage?

    Lesser: Summoned celestial creatures or creatures with the Good subtype gain temporary hit points and a bonus to damage rolls against evil-aligned creatures equal to the White Mage's level.

    Moderate: Whenever the White Mage casts a spell with the [good] descriptor he sheds daylight (as the spell) for a number of rounds equal to its spell level and grants allies in the light a +2 sacred bonus to saving throws.

    Greater: The White Mage gains the companionship of an animal as a druid of his level. This creature has the celestial template and a pair of wings, allowing it to fly at a speed of 60' (average).
    Last edited by Thomar_of_Uointer; 2013-03-21 at 05:55 PM.
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  19. - Top - End - #439
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomar_of_Uointer View Post
    Any chance you'll be adding a Thuamaturge archetype to the White Mage?

    Lesser: Summoned celestial creatures or creatures with the Good subtype gain temporary hit points and a bonus to damage rolls against evil-aligned creatures equal to the White Mage's level.

    Moderate: Whenever the White Mage casts a spell with the [good] descriptor he sheds daylight (as the spell) for a number of rounds equal to its spell level and grants allies in the light a +2 sacred bonus to saving throws.

    Greater: The White Mage gains the companionship of an animal as a druid of his level. This creature has the celestial template and a pair of wings, allowing it to fly at a speed of 60' (average).
    You know, that's not a bad idea. I tend to forget that good characters might want to summon things (I tend to be a bit biased towards the more fiendish angles).

  20. - Top - End - #440
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    I'd tweak the Moderate ability so that the White Mage can choose to drop the effect on a creature he has just summoned, and the Greater ability to let the White Mage drop the Moderate effect on his companion.
    I make games.

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  21. - Top - End - #441
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkweave31 View Post
    Hey, big fan of this compendium. I love the archetypes for E6. I feel like they add the flavor that you would lose from prestige classes not being a large part of E6.

    Now Arcane Archer is one of my favorite concepts though I hate the 3.5 class. I thought that it would fit thematically as an archetype for the red mage. This is a rough version and subject to revision and critique but I thought it would look something like this:

    Red Mage Archetype

    Arcane Archer


    Bonus Spells:
    1: Guided Shot, Arrow Mind
    2: Hunter’s Mercy, Hawkeye
    3: Dolorous blow, Weapon of energy
    Capstone SLA: Arrow Storm

    Lesser Archetype Power: When you use Combat Panache, you may make a ranged attack with a bow instead of a melee attack. If you have the rapid shot feat you may make two ranged attacks (at a -2 penalty to the attack rolls) and cast a spell as a full-round action. In addition you may use your intelligence modifier for ranged attack rolls instead of your dexterity.
    Moderate Archetype Power: You may conjure an arrow of pure arcane energy as a free action that can be fired from any bow. These arrows have a +1 enhancement bonus. For each arrow you create, you may choose additional weapon abilities. As often as you’d like, you may choose Flaming, Frost, Shock, Corrosive, Screaming, Merciful, Seeking, Distance, Spell Storing, Ghost Touch, or Revealing. At level 6 you may choose two of the previous abilities.
    Greater Archetype Power: You may expend one of your spell slots as a swift action to boost the potency of your ranged weapon attacks for 1 round. You gain an attack bonus equal to the level of the spell you expended and twice the spell level in bonus damage.
    Thanks! The archetype looks good, though I think the moderate ability could use some clarification (can you put ranged-only enhancements on ammunition? I thought you could only put them on the bow/sling/whatever). I might tone it down to just Flaming, Frost, and Shock myself.

  22. - Top - End - #442
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Does the Sentinel's Landsknecht archetype allow it to set any weapon against charge for double damage?
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  23. - Top - End - #443
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenish View Post
    Does the Sentinel's Landsknecht archetype allow it to set any weapon against charge for double damage?
    It is ambiguously worded but my intent was not to allow the use of any weapon, but only such weapons as can already be set against charges.

  24. - Top - End - #444
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Reach weapons that can be set against charge is a shorter list than you'd first think. Non-dwarves will have to settle for longspear or get EWP, but then again, this is E6, so the feats are less scarce.


    Oh, and I forgot to mention, but I really like what you've done here.
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  25. - Top - End - #445
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Hey Gnorman buddy, just reading through your nice little rogue generic class, and saw this tidbit:
    Moderate Archetype Power: An artificer reduces any requirements for crafting (be it time, experience points, or gold pieces), by a percentage equal to five times his Intelligence modifier (provided that it is positive). This ability stacks with similar feats. In addition, any splash weapons thrown by an artificer have their radius and damage doubled.
    Now, I'm curious about the way you worded that. When you say stack with other feats, do you mean that it would (A) directly improve a percentage, or that it would (B) follow standard item creation multiplicative guidelines? For example:
    There is an artificer with the Extraordinary Artisan feat (which reduces costs in GP by 25%). He has an intelligence modifier of +5. He wishes to craft an item, so his cost in GP would be either:
    (A) 100% - 25% - 25% = 50% of the standard cost.
    (B) 100% * 75% * 75% = 56.25% of the standard cost.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kardar233 View Post
    I was going to PM you about it because I wanted to know, but then you posted it later. Elegant solution. Watch out for Necropolitans.
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf View Post
    (B) 100% * 75% * 75% = 56.25% of the standard cost.
    This is how it would normally work, but Gnorman may elect to have it function differently in his system.
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Blueiji View Post
    This is how it would normally work, but Gnorman may elect to have it function differently in his system.
    Yes, that's why I asked. The language of it (explicitly calling it out as stacking) threw me off a bit. I'm very familiar with the stacking of cost reducers, I love artificers.
    If you see me talking about Shaper Psions, assume that anything not poison immune within 100 feet will be dead.
    Quote Originally Posted by kardar233 View Post
    I was going to PM you about it because I wanted to know, but then you posted it later. Elegant solution. Watch out for Necropolitans.
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf View Post
    Hey Gnorman buddy, just reading through your nice little rogue generic class, and saw this tidbit:


    Now, I'm curious about the way you worded that. When you say stack with other feats, do you mean that it would (A) directly improve a percentage, or that it would (B) follow standard item creation multiplicative guidelines? For example:
    There is an artificer with the Extraordinary Artisan feat (which reduces costs in GP by 25%). He has an intelligence modifier of +5. He wishes to craft an item, so his cost in GP would be either:
    (A) 100% - 25% - 25% = 50% of the standard cost.
    (B) 100% * 75% * 75% = 56.25% of the standard cost.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blueiji View Post
    This is how it would normally work, but Gnorman may elect to have it function differently in his system.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf View Post
    Yes, that's why I asked. The language of it (explicitly calling it out as stacking) threw me off a bit. I'm very familiar with the stacking of cost reducers, I love artificers.
    I have no idea why I chose it to operate in this particular way. Those generic classes were... strange, sometimes. Assume I meant in the way that most aligns with actual RAW.

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnorman View Post
    I have no idea why I chose it to operate in this particular way. Those generic classes were... strange, sometimes. Assume I meant in the way that most aligns with actual RAW.
    Gotcha, it's more balanced this way anyway. It takes the full 50 intelligence for free items, rather than merely 40. On a totally unrelated note, when I first checked that class out, I rapidly learned just how hard it is to reach 50 intelligence in E6.
    If you see me talking about Shaper Psions, assume that anything not poison immune within 100 feet will be dead.
    Quote Originally Posted by kardar233 View Post
    I was going to PM you about it because I wanted to know, but then you posted it later. Elegant solution. Watch out for Necropolitans.
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf View Post
    Gotcha, it's more balanced this way anyway. It takes the full 50 intelligence for free items, rather than merely 40. On a totally unrelated note, when I first checked that class out, I rapidly learned just how hard it is to reach 50 intelligence in E6.
    Yeaaahh... I should put a cap on that.

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