Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

**Sgt. Cookie** · 2015-05-24, 07:38 AM (ISO 8601)

SO! Thanks to feedback, a night of drunken debauchery and intense meditation, I have replacement archetypes for the Summoner!

The first change, is that the Summoner no longer gets Alterations. I can hear your startled gasps through the screen. But, they were too powerful. As OzzyKp said: "[T]hose alteration abilities are like stacking on a second set of archetype powers.". Sad, but true. With (a lot of) inspiration from Darklink, which I thank you for good sir!

So, without further adeu, here we go:

Spoiler

Show

Archetypes

Elemental Summoner

Lesser Archetype Power: Any Celestial/Fiendish creatures you summon via Summon Monster instead have the following Template applied:

Spoiler

Show

Elemental Creature:

Elemental Creature is an Inherited Template that can be applied to any of the following:aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, plant, or vermin

Size and Type: The creature's size is unchanged. The creature's Type changes to Elemental (Air/Earth/Fire/Water as appropriate). If the Elemental Creature is found on the Material Plane, it gains the Extraplanar subtype.

Hit Dice: Change to d8s.

Speed: Air Elemental Creatures have a Fly Speed of 100ft (Perfect Manuverability).

Water Elemental Creatures have a Swim Speed of 90ft.

Special Attacks: An Elemental creature gets certain special attacks, depending on its subtype.

Air:

Air Mastery (Ex): Airborne creatures take a -1 penalty on attack and damage rolls against an Air Elemental Creature.

Earth:

Earth Mastery (Ex): An Earth Elemental Creature gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls if both it and its foe are touching the ground. If an opponent is airborne or waterborne, the elemental takes a -4 penalty on attack and damage rolls.

Push (Ex): An Earth Elemental Creature can start a bull rush maneuver without provoking an attack of opportunity. The combat modifiers given in Earth Mastery, above, also apply to the elemental’s opposed Strength checks.

Fire:

Fire Damage (Ex): A Fire Elemental Creature's natural attacks deal extra Fire Damage, depending on their Hit Dice:
0-3HD: 1d4 Fire Damage.
4-7HD: 1d6 Fire Damage.

Burn (Ex): Those hit by a Fire Elemental’s natural attacks also must succeed on a Reflex save or catch on fire. The flame burns for 1d4 rounds. Save DC 10 + 1/2 HD + Con mod. A burning creature can take a move action to put out the flame.

Creatures hitting a Fire Elemental Creature with natural weapons or unarmed attacks take fire damage as though hit by the elemental’s attack, and also catch on fire unless they succeed on a Reflex save.

Water:

Water Mastery (Ex): A Water Elemental creature gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls if both it and its opponent are touching water. If the opponent or the elemental is touching the ground, the elemental takes a -4 penalty on attack and damage rolls.

Drench (Ex): The Water Elemental Creature’s touch puts out torches, campfires, exposed lanterns, and other open flames of nonmagical origin if these are of Large size or smaller. The creature can dispel magical fire it touches as dispel magic (caster level equals Elemental Creature’s HD).

Special Qualities:

All Elemental Creatures have Darkvision out to 60ft. If they already possess Darkvision, use whichever one is better.

Earth Elemental Creatures also the following:

Earth Glide (Ex): An Earth Elemental Creature can glide through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water. Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other signs of its presence. A move earth spell cast on an area containing a burrowing Earth Elemental Creature flings the elemental back 30 feet, stunning the creature for 1 round unless it succeeds on a DC 15 Fortitude save.

Abilities:

Air: Dex +6

Earth: Str +6, Dex -2

Fire: Dex +2

Water: Str + 4, Con +2

The Elemental Summoner decides what type of Elemental Creature is summoned at the time of casting.

Your Companion also has the Elemental Creature template, instead of the Celestial/Fiendish. Each time you summon your Companion, you may apply a different Elemental Creature template.

Moderate Archetype Power: Add Small Elemental, Medium Elemental and Large Elemental to the Summon Monster I, II and III lists respectively.

Greater Archetype Power: Whenever the Elemental Summoner has summoned an Elemental Creature (Including his Companion), he may, as a Standard action, change what Elemental type it is.

Minionmancer

Lesser Archetype Power: Whenever you cast a Summon X Spell, you may, as a Free Action, cast another Summon X Spell. These do not have to be the same spell or even the same level. (So, you could cast Summon Monster II and then, as a free action, cast Summon Nature's Ally I.)

Moderate Archetype Power: Instead of the "1d3 from [Prior Level's List]" effect of the 2nd and 3rd level Summon X spells, you can summon 1d4+1 creatures.

Instead of the "1d4+1 from the 1st level list" effect from the Summon X III spells, you can summon 1d6+2 creatures.

Greater Archetype Power: Whenever you summon your Companion, you instead summon two.

Celestial/Fiendish Specialist

Good summoners cannot be Fiendish Specialists and Evil summoners cannot be Celestial Specialists. Neutral Summoners can decide to be either. If your Alignment changes, then so does your Specialist type. (For example, a Neutral Fiendish Specialist becomes Good, he becomes a Celestial Specialist, instead.)

Lesser Archetype Power: All Fiendish Creatures are instead Celestial Creatures for a Celestial Specialist (vice versa for a Fiendish Specialist).

Moderate Archetype Power: The Natural Weapons of any Celestial/Fiendish creature you summon are treated as Good/Evil weapons for the purposes of overcoming Damage Reduction.

Greater Archetype Power: Once per week, you may use Lesser Planar Ally as a Spell-Like Ability without spending XP. Unlike the ordinary use of the spell, you may decide what sort of being you call (I.e, if you want to summon a Succubus, you will get a Succubus).

Master Summoner

Lesser Archetype Power: Whenever you cast a Summon X Spell, you may, as a free action, cast the same Summon X Spell again (So, if you cast Summon Monster I, you must cast Summon Monster I again to benefit from this effect). If you do, then you may use the list from the next level up. (So, two Summon Monster I spells gives access to the Summon monster II list. Two SM II spells gives access to the SM III List and two SM III spells gives access to the SM IV list).

You cannot use this ability in conjunction with the "X from a lower list" option.

Moderate Archetype Power: You gain a bonus to your Caster Level equal to (half?) your Cha Mod, but only when casting a Conjuration(Summoning) Spell or when casting Magic Circle to use as a trap for Lesser Planar Binding (See below).

Greater Archetype Power: Once per week, you may use Lesser Planar Binding as a Spell-Like ability. You must still use spell slots to cast Magic Circle Against (X) and Dimensional Anchor to create the trap. You must still offer rewards and the like to the creature you summon.

**Gnorman** · 2015-07-02, 07:07 PM (ISO 8601)

A few points:

1. Large elementals may break the curve, as they are generally superior to creatures found even on SM IV's list.

2. Celestial/Fiendish Specialist's lesser archetype power feels kind of lackluster.

3. I'd keep the Master Summoner's caster level bonus to half Charisma, given that the Summoner uses Charisma as a primary stat. Otherwise it gets a bit out of hand and is basically free Extend on all summoning spells (I suppose it also makes them harder to dispel). I've admittedly given out free Extend to one archetype, but it was limited in scope and didn't kick in until level 6.

But other than those admittedly very minor, nitpicky points, good revisions!

**Sgt. Cookie** · 2015-07-03, 10:06 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Gnorman

A few points:

1. Large elementals may break the curve, as they are generally superior to creatures found even on SM IV's list.

Not really sure what to replace it with, though. Suggestions?

2. Celestial/Fiendish Specialist's lesser archetype power feels kind of lackluster.

I'm thinking about replacing it with the Half Celestial/Fiendish template. That work better?

3. I'd keep the Master Summoner's caster level bonus to half Charisma, given that the Summoner uses Charisma as a primary stat. Otherwise it gets a bit out of hand and is basically free Extend on all summoning spells (I suppose it also makes them harder to dispel). I've admittedly given out free Extend to one archetype, but it was limited in scope and didn't kick in until level 6.

Half Cha mod it is!

EDIT: As a side note, are there any other classes that you think Dismiss (AKA: Dispel Summoned Creature) could be added to? I only ask so that, when I get round to posting E6 Summoner V2, I can include those classes in spell description.

**Gnorman** · 2015-07-03, 09:48 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Sgt. Cookie

Not really sure what to replace it with, though. Suggestions?

What about mephits?

Originally Posted by Sgt. Cookie

I'm thinking about replacing it with the Half Celestial/Fiendish template. That work better?

I like the idea, but it might be a bit much at low levels - the damage reduction alone is pretty problematic. The image of a summoner calling up a Desecrate-casting crocodile with bat wings or a feathery, evil-detecting bison is almost too good to pass up though. I'd say maybe make it the Moderate ability and move the Moderate to Lesser, but then the current Moderate ability comes online way too early. It's still nice to have, but you don't run into alignment-based damage reduction until later levels.

Originally Posted by Sgt. Cookie

Half Cha mod it is!

I don't think full Cha mod would break anything terribly, but I'd just err on the side of keeping it more toned down. Half Cha is still a nice bonus! But this is all personal opinion, no need to take my advice on it if you disagree.

Originally Posted by Sgt. Cookie

EDIT: As a side note, are there any other classes that you think Dismiss (AKA: Dispel Summoned Creature) could be added to? I only ask so that, when I get round to posting E6 Summoner V2, I can include those classes in spell description.

Dismiss would probably be most appropriate for a Black or a White Mage, as they're the classes with the biggest focus on planar summoning. I've actually been toying with removing Summon Monster spells from the Red and Blue Mages, to sort of stake a thematic claim for the Black/White Mages in that regard. Besides, the Blue Mage not being able to summon chaotic creatures just feels weird.

**Sgt. Cookie** · 2015-07-04, 01:22 PM (ISO 8601)

Alrighty, then, here we have: SUMMONER V2!

The Summoner

Hit Die: 1d6
Class Skills: Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, Knowledge (All except Nobility and Royalty and Architecture and Engineering), Listen, Ride, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Use Magic Device
Skill Points: 4 + Int per level (4x at 1st)

Level	BAB	Fort	Ref	Will	Special	0lvl	1st	2nd	3rd
1st	+0	+0	+2	+2	Archetype Power (Lesser), Spellcasting, Companion	5	4	—	—
2nd	+1	+0	+3	+3	Augment Summoning, Quick Summon	5	5	—	—
3rd	+2	+1	+3	+3	Archetype Power (Moderate)	5	5	4	—
4th	+3	+1	+4	+4	Extended Summoning	5	6	5	—
5th	+3	+1	+4	+4	Summoned Buff	5	6	5	3
6th	+4	+2	+5	+5	Archetype Power (Greater), Swift Summoning	5	6	6	4

Spoiler

Show

Proficiencies: The Summoner is proficient with light armour and simple weapons. He does not suffer from arcane failure while in light armour.

Archetype Power: At 1st level, the Summoner chooses an archetype from the following list. Once made, the choice is final. Each archetype offers different abilities related to summoned creatures.

Spellcasting: The Summoner casts arcane spells from a specialized list, which is included below. A Summoner need not prepare spells ahead of time - he may spontaneously cast any spell on his list from the appropriate slot. He still requires eight hours of rest to refresh his spells. His sole casting stat is Charisma, which dictates both the DC of his spells and his bonus spells. To cast a spell, the Summoner must have a Charisma score equal to 10 + the level of spell in question.

Any Buffing spell (See Summoned Buff) ignores the Spell Resistance (If any) and/or other immunities of your summoned creatures. Mindless creatures cannot be affected by Mind Affecting abilities, however. Additionally, if a Buffing Spell has a Range of Personal (Such as Entropic Shield), it may be cast as Touch range spell, instead.

Companion (Su): Select a creature from either the Summon Monster list or Summon Nature's Ally list. Once made, this choice cannot be changed, except when you get access to a higher level list. The chosen creature becomes your Companion. Anything added via an Archetype (Such as Elemental Summoner's Moderate power) are eligible to become Companions.

If your Companion has less Hit Dice than you do class levels, then your Companion gains extra Hit Dice equal to the difference. Your Companion, if intelligent, possesses the same Alignment as you. Your Companion is loyal to you and follows your instructions without question, even if you do not share a language. Since your Companion cannot be killed, well permanently killed, it has no qualms about acting on dangerous or life-threatening orders.

Your Companion is summoned as a Standard Action and lasts indefinitely. You also summon the same creature each time, although you may release a particular creature from service (Obtaining a new one is as simple as recovering spells for the night). Once summoned, your Companion may enter Anti-Magic fields and the like but cannot be summoned within them. Your Companion can be the target of a Dispel or Dismiss spell, but can be resummoned the next round. You may dismiss your Companion as a free action. If your companion is killed, it reforms after an hour.

This ability is treated as a Conjuration (Summoning) Spell with a level equal to the highest level Summon Monster spell you can cast. As such, it can benefit from feats such as Augment Summoning that normally only affect actual spells.

Augment Summoning: At second level, a Summoner gets the Augment Summoning feat for free, regardless of whether he qualifies.

Quick Summoning (Ex): At second level, all Conjuration (Summoning) Spells have a Casting time of a Standard Action, rather than 1 Round.

Extended Summoning (Ex): At fourth level, all of a Summoner's Conjuration (Summoning) spells are Extended automatically without using a higher level slot.

Summoned Buff (Ex): Whenever you cast a Summon X spell or summon your Companion you may, as a Free Action, cast a Buffing spell (Defined as any spell that grants a bonus to Ability Scores, skill checks, attack rolls, saves, damage rolls, grants temporary HP or grants a Miss Chance. Magic Weapon and Magic Fang, and the Greater versions, also count as Buffing spells.) on them. If the Buffing Spell has multiple targets, such as Good Hope, but you only summon one creature, then you may utilise these extra targets on other allies. If you summon multiple creatures, but cast a Buffing spell that cannot target all of them, then only some of them gain the benefits of the spell.

Swift Summon (Ex): At sixth level, all Conjuration (Summoning) Spells can be cast as a Move action, or as a Free action as part of a Move. (This also includes your Companion).

Summoner Spell List:
0: Detect Magic, Guidance, Message, Prestidigitation, Read Magic, Resistance, Virtue
1st: Bless, Comprehend Languages, Entropic Shield, Mage Armour, Magic Fang, Magic Weapon, Mount, Protection from Good/Evil/Chaos/Law, Remove Fear, Shield of Faith, Summon Monster I, Summon Nature's Ally I
2nd: Aid, Bear's Endurance, Blur, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Dismiss*, Eagle's Splendour, Fox's Cunning, Heroism Owl's Wisdom, Rage, Resist Energy, Status, Summon Monster II, Summon Nature's Ally II, Summon Swarm, Tongues
3rd: Dimensional Anchor, Displacement, Good Hope, Haste, Keen Edge, Magic Circle against Good/Evil/Chaos/Law, Magic Fang (Greater), Magic Vestment, Magic Weapon (Greater), Phantom Steed, Prayer, Protection from Energy, Summon Monster III, Summon Nature's Ally III

*New Spell:

Spoiler

Show

Dismiss
Conjuration

Level: Black Mage 2, Summoner 2, White Mage 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 Standard Action
Range: Medium
Target: One Summoned creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: No
Spell Resistance: No

This spell functions like a Targeted Dispel Magic, except as mentioned here: You may only affect Creatures summoned with a Conjuration(Summoning) effect and you gain a +4 bonus to the check.

If multiple creatures are summoned via one spell, such as via the "1d3 from the lower list" option, then you only need to successfully dismiss one creature from the group to dismiss all of them.

Dismiss can be used to Counterspell any Conjuration(Summoning) spell.

Archetypes

Elemental Summoner

Lesser Archetype Power: Any Celestial/Fiendish creatures you summon via Summon Monster instead have the following Template applied:

Spoiler

Show

Elemental Creature:

Elemental Creature is an Inherited Template that can be applied to any of the following:aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, plant, or vermin

Size and Type: The creature's size is unchanged. The creature's Type changes to Elemental and gains the Air/Earth/Fire/Water subtype as appropriate. If the Elemental Creature is found on the Material Plane, it gains the Extraplanar subtype.

Hit Dice: Change to d8s.

Speed: Air Elemental Creatures have a Fly Speed of 100ft (Perfect Manuverability).

Water Elemental Creatures have a Swim Speed of 90ft.

Special Attacks: An Elemental creature gets certain special attacks, depending on its subtype.

Air:

Air Mastery (Ex): Airborne creatures take a -1 penalty on attack and damage rolls against an Air Elemental Creature.

Earth:

Earth Mastery (Ex): An Earth Elemental Creature gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls if both it and its foe are touching the ground. If an opponent is airborne or waterborne, the elemental takes a -4 penalty on attack and damage rolls.

Push (Ex): An Earth Elemental Creature can start a bull rush maneuver without provoking an attack of opportunity. The combat modifiers given in Earth Mastery, above, also apply to the elemental’s opposed Strength checks.

Fire:

Fire Damage (Ex): A Fire Elemental Creature's natural attacks deal extra Fire Damage, depending on their Hit Dice:
0-3HD: 1d4 Fire Damage.
4-7HD: 1d6 Fire Damage.

Burn (Ex): Those hit by a Fire Elemental’s natural attacks also must succeed on a Reflex save or catch on fire. The flame burns for 1d4 rounds. Save DC 10 + 1/2 HD + Con mod. A burning creature can take a move action to put out the flame.

Creatures hitting a Fire Elemental Creature with natural weapons or unarmed attacks take fire damage as though hit by the elemental’s attack, and also catch on fire unless they succeed on a Reflex save.

Water:

Water Mastery (Ex): A Water Elemental creature gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls if both it and its opponent are touching water. If the opponent or the elemental is touching the ground, the elemental takes a -4 penalty on attack and damage rolls.

Drench (Ex): The Water Elemental Creature’s touch puts out torches, campfires, exposed lanterns, and other open flames of nonmagical origin if these are of Large size or smaller. The creature can dispel magical fire it touches as dispel magic (caster level equals Elemental Creature’s HD).

Special Qualities:

All Elemental Creatures have Darkvision out to 60ft. If they already possess Darkvision, use whichever one is better.

Earth Elemental Creatures also the following:

Earth Glide (Ex): An Earth Elemental Creature can glide through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water. Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other signs of its presence. A move earth spell cast on an area containing a burrowing Earth Elemental Creature flings the elemental back 30 feet, stunning the creature for 1 round unless it succeeds on a DC 15 Fortitude save.

Abilities:

Air: Dex +6

Earth: Str +6, Dex -2

Fire: Dex +2

Water: Str + 4, Con +2

The Elemental Summoner decides what type of Elemental Creature is summoned at the time of casting.

Your Companion also has the Elemental Creature template, instead of the Celestial/Fiendish. Each time you summon your Companion, you may apply a different Elemental Creature template.

Moderate Archetype Power: Add Small Elemental, Medium Elemental and Mephit (Air, Fire, Earth and Water only) to the Summon Monster I, II and III lists respectively.

Greater Archetype Power: Whenever the Elemental Summoner has summoned an Elemental Creature (Including his Companion), Elemental or Mephit, he may, as a Standard action, change what Elemental type it is.

Minionmancer

Lesser Archetype Power: Whenever you cast a Summon X Spell, you may, as a Free Action, cast another Summon X Spell. These do not have to be the same spell or even the same level. (So, you could cast Summon Monster II and then, as a free action, cast Summon Nature's Ally I.)

Moderate Archetype Power: Instead of the "1d3 from [Prior Level's List]" effect of the 2nd and 3rd level Summon X spells, you can summon 1d4+1 creatures.

Instead of the "1d4+1 from the 1st level list" effect from the Summon X III spells, you can summon 1d6+2 creatures.

Greater Archetype Power: Whenever you summon your Companion, you instead summon two.

Celestial/Fiendish Specialist

Good summoners cannot be Fiendish Specialists and Evil summoners cannot be Celestial Specialists. Neutral Summoners can decide to be either. If your Alignment changes, then so does your Specialist type. (For example, a Neutral Fiendish Specialist becomes Good, he becomes a Celestial Specialist, instead.) As such, all Fiendish Creatures are instead Celestial Creatures for a Celestial Specialist (vice versa for a Fiendish Specialist). This also applies to your Companion.

Lesser Archetype Power: The Natural Weapons of any Celestial/Fiendish creature you summon are treated as Good/Evil weapons for the purposes of overcoming Damage Reduction. In addition, whenever a Celestial creature attacks an Evil one (And vice versa for Fiendish creatures) with its natural weapons, they deal damage as if they were one size larger.

Moderate Archetype Power: Instead of the Celestial/Fiendish template, your summoned creatures have the Half-Celestial/Fiendish template instead. This also applies to your companion.

Greater Archetype Power: Once per week, you may use Lesser Planar Ally as a Spell-Like Ability. Unlike the ordinary use of the spell, you may decide what sort of being you call (I.e, if you want to summon a Succubus, you will get a Succubus).

Master Summoner

Lesser Archetype Power: Whenever you cast a Summon X Spell, you may, as a free action, cast the same Summon X Spell again (So, if you cast Summon Monster I, you must cast Summon Monster I again to benefit from this effect). If you do, then you may use the list from the next level up. (So, two Summon Monster I spells gives access to the Summon monster II list. Two SM II spells gives access to the SM III List and two SM III spells gives access to the SM IV list).

You cannot use this ability in conjunction with the "X from a lower list" option.

Moderate Archetype Power: You gain a bonus to your Caster Level equal to half your Charisma Modifier, but only when casting a Conjuration(Summoning) Spell or when casting Magic Circle to use as a trap for Lesser Planar Binding (See below).

Greater Archetype Power: Once per week, you may use Lesser Planar Binding as a Spell-Like ability. You must still use spell slots to cast Magic Circle Against (X) and Dimensional Anchor to create the trap. You must still offer rewards and the like to the creature you summon.

**Gnorman** · 2015-07-04, 01:41 PM (ISO 8601)

The mark of a good class is when you can't wait to play it. The mark of a great class is when you can't wait to play it, but don't, because you can't decide which archetype you like best. I think you definitely brought the Elemental Summoner and Celestial/Fiendish Specialist up the same level as the other archetypes, and now for the life of me can't choose one I like best.

Excellent work, Sgt. Cookie. I'll update the front page to link to Version 2.

**Sgt. Cookie** · 2015-07-04, 02:30 PM (ISO 8601)

Noice.

The next thing I'm gonna work on is a FF Style "Blue Mage". That is, someone who nicks the abilities of monsters and uses 'em against 'em.

No name, just yet, but working name is "Ability Thief".

I have some preliminary ideas:

Steal Ability (Su): You may, as a Standard Action, attempt to Steal a Supernatural ability of an opponent. You may not Steal Supernatural abilities that are gained via Class levels. In order to Steal a Supernatural ability, your Ability Thief level must be equal to or greater than the Hit Dice of creature you are attempting to Steal from. Your opponent must also be within 100ft of you and possess a Supernatural Ability. If they do not, then the attempt is wasted.

If you are able to Steal an Ability, then your opponent must make a Will Save against a DC of (10 + Half your Level + Int Mod). If your opponent fails, you Steal one Supernatural Ability of your choice and may use it on the next round. If an Ability is dependent on a Natural Attack, then you must possess that Natural Attack in order to use the ability.

You may only have a number of stolen Abilities equal to your level. If you would go over your maximum, then you may decide which ability to lose.

??? (Ex): At Sixth level, your mastery over stolen abilities improves. You may treat your Ability Thief level as if it were (Int Mod/2) higher, for the purposes of determining what Abilities you can steal.

I only have two or three Archetype ideas, so far. One would focus you into a particular Type, increasing what Hit Dice you can steal as well as boosting the abilities themselves. The second is letting you grab some Natural Attacks and abilities related to them. The third would let you nab Extraordinary abilities.

Thoughts?

**OzzyKP** · 2015-07-06, 09:44 AM (ISO 8601)

I tweaked/beefed up my earlier concept for the Charlatan and am reposting it, hopefully it'll get some feedback this time here are my proposed Charlatan powers:

Lesser Archetype Power: Creating a disguise only take 1d6 minutes of work and a charlatan can always take 10 on Disguise, Bluff and Sleight of Hand. A charlatan takes no penalties for impersonating a different race, gender or age. Can feint as a swift action and gains the Assume Quirk skill trick.

Moderate Archetype Power: When using sleight of hand as a perform skill (juggling, Legerdemain, etc) can fascinate as a bard. Gain free Hidden Blade skill trick. The charlatan can disguise herself as one size category larger with no penalty if she takes 10x the time to create the disguise.

Greater Archetype Power: Once per day a charlatan can make use of one of the following abilities:

Second Impression: If an observer sees through your disguise with a successful Spot check, you can (as an immediate action) attempt a Bluff check to convince him that he's mistaken. Use the observer's Spot check result as the DC for your Bluff check; if you succeed, the observer ignores the evidence of his own senses in favor of what your disguise attempts to show. You must be aware of the observer's discovery in order to use this trick; for example, you can't use it against someone viewing you secretly, nor can you use it against someone who sees through your disguise but keeps that information secret. When in doubt, the DM should allow a character to use this trick if she has any reason to fear that her cover has been blown.

Deadly Legerdemain: Use her Hidden Blade skill trick to make a free attack on a target she has fascinated. No one, including the victim, knows where the attack came from, and combat does not begin. The charlatan hides the weapon used in the attack as a free action after the attack. The attack must be made in a public place with other people nearby. If the charlatan makes a successful bluff check, she can direct blame for the attack onto another person nearby, thus framing them for the attack. A failed bluff check results in the victim of the attack (and all onlookers) assigning equal blame to all present, including the charlatan.

We Go Way Back, You Can Trust Me: When successfully impersonating a friend or family member of the target the charlatan can add their disguise modifier to a diplomacy skill roll for adjusting a target's attitude, and can add their bluff skill modifier to a diplomacy skill roll for requesting the target take an action.

If you think it should be further tweaked, here are some more ideas.

**Sgt. Cookie** · 2015-07-08, 09:28 PM (ISO 8601)

Let's see what people think of this:

The Monster Mimic

Hit Die: 1d8
Class Skills: Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, Knowledge (All except Nobility and Royalty and Architecture and Engineering), Listen, Ride, Sense Motive, Spot
Skill Points: 4 + Int per level (4x at 1st)

Level	BAB	Fort	Ref	Will	Special
1st	+1	+0	+2	+2	Archetype Power (Lesser), Mimic Ability
2nd	+2	+0	+3	+3	Knowledge of Monsters, Mimic Natural Weapon
3rd	+3	+1	+3	+3	Archetype Power (Moderate), Ability Focus
4th	+4	+1	+4	+4	Mimic Form
5th	+5	+1	+4	+4	Copycat
6th	+6/+1	+2	+5	+5	Archetype Power (Greater), Master Mimic

Spoiler

Show

Proficiencies: A Monster Mimic is proficient with Light Armour, Medium Armour, Simple and Martial weapons and Light Shields. A Monster Mimic is also proficient with any Natural Weapons it gains via this class.

Mimic Ability (Su): You may, as a Standard Action, attempt to Mimic a Supernatural ability of an opponent. You may not Mimic Supernatural abilities that are gained via Class levels. In order to Mimic a Supernatural ability, your Monster Mimic level must be equal to or greater than the Hit Dice of creature you are attempting to Mimic. Your opponent must also be within 100ft of you and possess a Supernatural Ability. If they do not, then the attempt is wasted.

If you are able to Mimic an Ability, then your opponent must make a Will Save against a DC of (10 + Half your Level + Int Mod). If your opponent fails, you Mimic one Supernatural Ability of your choice and it is added to your repertoire permanently and may be used next round. If an Ability is dependent on a Natural Attack, then you must possess that Natural Attack in order to use the ability. (As may be the case with Mimic Form.) You use the Mimicked Ability as if you were the original creature, except as mentioned here. A Willing creature does not need to make a Save, of course.

If a Mimicked ability requires you to be in a specific "form" (Such as a Bralani's Whirlwind Blast), you can ignore that requirement.

If an Ability has a Save DC, then you may use your Intelligence in place of whatever Ability Score it normally uses and your Monster Mimic level in place of Hit Dice. (Well, HALF your MM level, as Save DCs use half Hit Dice.) Obviously, you do not get any "Racial Bonus" to the Save. Similarly, if an Ability is "As [Spell X] (Caster Level Y)", then your Monster Mimic level replaces the Caster Level.

All Mimicked Abilities are used as a Standard Action (Even if the original ability explicitly has a lower one), unless the Ability explicitly has a higher one, in which case, you use that. If an Ability has an explicit number of uses per day, then you must abide by that. Otherwise, it may be used at-will.

You may only Mimic a number of Abilities equal to your Monster Mimic level. If you would go over your maximum, then you may decide which ability to lose. You may not have the same ability multiple times. (Note, all "Breath Weapon" abilities are considered to be the same ability. You can replace what SORT of Breath Weapon you have, of course.)

Spoiler: Sidebar: Monster Mimic note, for Players and DMs

Show

Let me first say this: Yes, I'm well aware of the kinds of broken shenanigans that can come of this ability.

Now, I COULD go and create an exhaustive list of all Supernatural Abilities that can be Mimicked. But I'm not going to do that, as you may decide otherwise. So, instead, I'm going to leave it up to YOU (Both Player and DM) to decide if a particular ability is broken in the hands of a player. (I will however, make it a little easier and write a blacklist of abilities that I think are too powerful. I won't bother with anything beyond CR 12, however, as that's generally the extreme limit of what the PCs can fight in an E6 game.)

For example the Blink ability of a Blink Dog or the Petrifying Gaze ability of a Basilisk or Medusa. Both of these are stupidly powerful, so DM don't be afraid to say "That would be broken, I'm sorry" and Players, don't be upset or angry if the DM says that. If you ARE the type of person who would get angry over it, then don't play this class. Seriously, pick something else. ANYTHING else. Save your group the trouble.

On the other hand, some abilities AS-IS that are too strong can easily be toned down. The Blink Dog, for instance, also has Dimension Door. As-written, it's a little strong. But if we change it ever so slightly, say make it Close range rather than Long, it becomes an interesting thing to have. So, don't whip out the ban-hammer EVERY time, if toning an ability down would make it more PC-Viable, then for the love of the Random Number God, tone it down first.

One last thing to note, some abilities can come from creatures that can have various "versions", for lack of a better term. For example, an Air Elemental's Whirlwind ability differs depending on whether it's a Small elemental or Medium or a True Dragon's Breath Weapon. Because of this, I would highly, HIGHLY recommend that if your Effective Mimic Level increases, then the ability automatically upgrades. For instance, if you Mimicked the Whirlwind ability of a Small Air Elemental (HD 2), when your EML becomes 4, then it upgrades to the Whirlwind ability of a Medium Air Elemental (HD 4). (Shocker Lizards are similar. A Medium Monster Mimic counts as two Shocker Lizards (Therefore gets Lethal Shock), while a Small Monster Mimic counts as one.)

Anyway, with that out of the way, the Ability Blacklist (My opinion of course, your's may differ.)

Spoiler: Blacklist

Show

I will say again. This is NOT a "You can have these abilities" list. This is the opposite. This is an "You may not, EVER, have these abilities" list.

Aboleth: Enslave (Dominate Person effect.)

Alip: Madness, Wisdom Drain.

Archon Traits: Magic Circle Against Evil, Teleport, Tongues.

Archon (Hound): Change Shape. (Possible to Nerf it, true. But the Monster Mimic has Mimic Form. So...)

Avoral: True Seeing, Lay on Hands. (Fear Aura is only 1/day and Speak with Animals is... Speak with Animals. So...)

Barghest: Feed, Change Shape. (I REALLY don't need to explain why. Right!?)

Basilisk: Stone Gaze

Beholder (And Gauth): Eye Rays, Antimagic Cone

Blink Dog: Blink

Bodak: Death Gaze

Bralani: Alternate Form, Tongues (Neither's broken per sey. They're just redundant.)

Chaos Beast: Corporeal Instability

Choker: Quickness (Obvious, really.)

Cockatrice: Petrification.

Couatl: Change Shape, Ethereal Jaunt, Telepathy

Demon Traits: Telepathy

Demon (Babu): Protective Slime (Not because it's broken, more because it's a headache to figure out.)

Demon (Bebilith): Plane Shift

Demon (Quasit): Alternate Form

Demon (Retriever): Eye Rays

Demon (Succubus): Change Shape, Tongues

Devil Traits: Telepathy

Devil (Barbed Devil): Barbed Defence

Devil (Chain Devil): Dancing Chains

Devil (Erinyes): True Seeing

Devil (Imp): Alternate Form

Devourer: Trap Essence, Spell Deflection

Doppelganger: Detect Thoughts, Change Shape

Dragon, True: Alternate Form

Dragon, True (Silver Dragon): Cloudwalking

Dragon Turtle: Dragon Turtle Breath Weapon

Dryad: Tree Dependent (Banned not because it's powerful. But because only an idiot would Mimic this.)

Ethereal Filcher/Maruder: Ethereal Jaunt

Formian Taskmaster: Dominate Monster

Frost Worm Trill, Frost Worm Breath Weapon

Ghaele: Gaze, Alternate Form, Protective Aura

Ghost: All of them. (Too many to list).

Ghoul/Ghast: Ghoul Fever

Golem (Clay Golem): Haste

Gorgon: Gorgon Breath Weapon

Hag (Green Hag): Weakness

Hag (Sea Hag): Horrific Appearance

Invisible Stalker: Natural Invisibility (Do I really have to explain why? DO I!?)

Lamia: Wisdom Drain

Lammasu: Magic Circle Against Evil

Leonal: All except Speak with Animals. (I'm not gonna lie. At this point, I can't be arsed to write out EVERY blacklisted ability if something has multiple.)

Lich: All

Lycanthrope: All

Medusa: Petrifying Gaze

Mohrg: Paralyzing Touch, Create Spawn

Mummy: Mummy Rot

Naga: All

Night Hag: All

Nightmare: Astral Projection, Etherealness

Nymph: All

Ogre Mage: All

Phantom Fungus: Greater Invisibility

Phase Spider: Ethereal Jaunt

Phasm: Alternate Form

Psudodragon: Telepathy

Rakshasa: Detect Thoughts

Rast: Paralyzing Gaze, Flight

Ravid: Animate Objects, Flight

Satyr: Pipes

Shadow: All

Shadow Mastiff: Shadow Blend

Shield Guardian: Find Master (Not because it's broken, of course. But because it's useless.)

Spectre: Create Spawn

Sprite (Grig): Fiddle

Unicorn: Magic Circle against evil

Vampire: All, except Energy Drain

Vargouille: Kiss

Wight: Create Spawn

Wraith: All, except Unnatural Aura

Xill: Planewalk

Yeth Hound: Flight

Spoiler: Nerfed abilities

Show

These are nerfs to abilities that I personally would make if I were DMing this class. Again, this is all my opinion.

Assassin Vine: Entangle: Usable a number of times per day equal to your Monster Mimic level. (For ease of writing, I will use "Class Level/Day" as shorthand for this nerf.)

Blink Dog: Dimension Door: Short Range, rather than Long. (It already has another Nerf, due to the fact that all Mimicked will be at least a Standard Action.)

Cloaker: Shadow Shift: Pick ONE effect.

Devil (Barbed Devil): Fear: Class Level/Day

Devil (Bone Devil): Fear Aura: Class Level/Day

Knowledge of Monsters: The Monster Mimic gets an untyped +2 bonus to all Knowledge Checks (Except Nobility and Royalty, and Architecture and Engineering) but only when attempting to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities.

Mimic Natural Weapon (Su): Whenever you use Mimic Ability, you may instead attempt to Mimic a Natural Weapon of the target.

As this ability is Supernatural in nature, you do not have to physically possess the correct appendage. Instead, whenever you make an attack with a Natural Weapon, a sort of apparition appears to make the attack. You must still be in a position to ACTUALLY attack, though.

You may only have a number of Natural Weapons equal to (Class Level/2), but you may decide which Natural Weapon is the Primary each time you attack.

This class ability allows you to take the Multiattack feat, even if you don't have three Natural Weapons.

Ability Focus: You gain the feat Ability Focus as a Bonus Feat. If you already have this feat, you instead gain any other feat for which you qualify.

At the start of each day, you may change what ability Ability Focus applies to.

Mimic Form (Su): Whenever you use Mimic Ability, you may instead attempt to Mimic the creature's physical appearance.

You may only have one form at level 4. You gain a second at level 6.

This effect is partially illusionary, but creatures cannot "disbelieve" your illusion. Creatures with True Seeing see you for what you really are, though. However, you gain the Movement Modes and any Languages of the creature you're Mimicking. If the creature possesses no language natively, you are still able to communicate with other creatures of the same kind.

In addition, you also gain the Extraordinary abilities and size of the form you're mimicking. But, as before, you can only Mimic the form of a creature who's Hit Dice is equal to or less than your Monster Mimic level.

If you enter an Anti-magic field, you "revert" back to your ordinary form.

Copycat (Ex): Select an Ally who has acted since your last turn. You replicate any mundane actions they did, using whatever modifiers they did (regardless of whether or not you even qualify for the modifier), except you may select new targets. You may not replicate "passive" effects, or anything that is in response to an enemy attack.

For example, if a Brawler ally moved his full speed (Movement bonus included) and Full attacked as a standard action with his unarmed damage bonus, then you could the EXACT SAME THING. Even if you're wearing armour (And therefore cannot normally benefit from Faster than the Naked Eye.). But if, say, a Zealot activated an aura, you could not replicate the Aura.

Master Mimic (Su): ???

So, there's the basic overview. No Archetypes, just yet, but a good, solid base I say. So, any thoughts?

**Gnorman** · 2015-07-20, 04:01 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by OzzyKP

I tweaked/beefed up my earlier concept for the Charlatan and am reposting it, hopefully it'll get some feedback this time here are my proposed Charlatan powers:

Lesser Archetype Power: Creating a disguise only take 1d6 minutes of work and a charlatan can always take 10 on Disguise, Bluff and Sleight of Hand. A charlatan takes no penalties for impersonating a different race, gender or age. Can feint as a swift action and gains the Assume Quirk skill trick.

Moderate Archetype Power: When using sleight of hand as a perform skill (juggling, Legerdemain, etc) can fascinate as a bard. Gain free Hidden Blade skill trick. The charlatan can disguise herself as one size category larger with no penalty if she takes 10x the time to create the disguise.

Greater Archetype Power: Once per day a charlatan can make use of one of the following abilities:

Second Impression: If an observer sees through your disguise with a successful Spot check, you can (as an immediate action) attempt a Bluff check to convince him that he's mistaken. Use the observer's Spot check result as the DC for your Bluff check; if you succeed, the observer ignores the evidence of his own senses in favor of what your disguise attempts to show. You must be aware of the observer's discovery in order to use this trick; for example, you can't use it against someone viewing you secretly, nor can you use it against someone who sees through your disguise but keeps that information secret. When in doubt, the DM should allow a character to use this trick if she has any reason to fear that her cover has been blown.

Deadly Legerdemain: Use her Hidden Blade skill trick to make a free attack on a target she has fascinated. No one, including the victim, knows where the attack came from, and combat does not begin. The charlatan hides the weapon used in the attack as a free action after the attack. The attack must be made in a public place with other people nearby. If the charlatan makes a successful bluff check, she can direct blame for the attack onto another person nearby, thus framing them for the attack. A failed bluff check results in the victim of the attack (and all onlookers) assigning equal blame to all present, including the charlatan.

We Go Way Back, You Can Trust Me: When successfully impersonating a friend or family member of the target the charlatan can add their disguise modifier to a diplomacy skill roll for adjusting a target's attitude, and can add their bluff skill modifier to a diplomacy skill roll for requesting the target take an action.

If you think it should be further tweaked, here are some more ideas.

I dig it. I'm admittedly not very good at coming up with interesting out-of-combat abilities, so I'm glad someone else is. I think these are pretty reasonable abilities, and I like the role of the Charlatan as "rogue in plain sight." I don't know how explicitly magical you want to get with this (seemingly not) but a high-level ability for an archetype like this might be to be able to actually change shape, a la Alter Self. I've tried to take most shapeshifting effects out of spell lists, or restrict them very narrowly, but I think this is a situation where it both makes sense and wouldn't be terribly off the charts, power-wise.

Originally Posted by Sgt. Cookie

Let's see what people think of this:

The Monster Mimic

Hit Die: 1d8
Class Skills: Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, Knowledge (All except Nobility and Royalty and Architecture and Engineering), Listen, Ride, Sense Motive, Spot
Skill Points: 4 + Int per level (4x at 1st)

Level	BAB	Fort	Ref	Will	Special
1st	+1	+0	+2	+2	Archetype Power (Lesser), Mimic Ability
2nd	+2	+0	+3	+3	Knowledge of Monsters, Mimic Natural Weapon
3rd	+3	+1	+3	+3	Archetype Power (Moderate), Ability Focus
4th	+4	+1	+4	+4	Mimic Form
5th	+5	+1	+4	+4	Copycat
6th	+6/+1	+2	+5	+5	Archetype Power (Greater), Master Mimic

Spoiler

Show

Proficiencies: A Monster Mimic is proficient with Light Armour, Medium Armour, Simple and Martial weapons and Light Shields. A Monster Mimic is also proficient with any Natural Weapons it gains via this class.

Mimic Ability (Su): You may, as a Standard Action, attempt to Mimic a Supernatural ability of an opponent. You may not Mimic Supernatural abilities that are gained via Class levels. In order to Mimic a Supernatural ability, your Monster Mimic level must be equal to or greater than the Hit Dice of creature you are attempting to Mimic. Your opponent must also be within 100ft of you and possess a Supernatural Ability. If they do not, then the attempt is wasted.

If you are able to Mimic an Ability, then your opponent must make a Will Save against a DC of (10 + Half your Level + Int Mod). If your opponent fails, you Mimic one Supernatural Ability of your choice and it is added to your repertoire permanently and may be used next round. If an Ability is dependent on a Natural Attack, then you must possess that Natural Attack in order to use the ability. (As may be the case with Mimic Form.) You use the Mimicked Ability as if you were the original creature, except as mentioned here. A Willing creature does not need to make a Save, of course.

If a Mimicked ability requires you to be in a specific "form" (Such as a Bralani's Whirlwind Blast), you can ignore that requirement.

If an Ability has a Save DC, then you may use your Intelligence in place of whatever Ability Score it normally uses and your Monster Mimic level in place of Hit Dice. (Well, HALF your MM level, as Save DCs use half Hit Dice.) Obviously, you do not get any "Racial Bonus" to the Save. Similarly, if an Ability is "As [Spell X] (Caster Level Y)", then your Monster Mimic level replaces the Caster Level.

All Mimicked Abilities are used as a Standard Action (Even if the original ability explicitly has a lower one), unless the Ability explicitly has a higher one, in which case, you use that. If an Ability has an explicit number of uses per day, then you must abide by that. Otherwise, it may be used at-will.

You may only Mimic a number of Abilities equal to your Monster Mimic level. If you would go over your maximum, then you may decide which ability to lose. You may not have the same ability multiple times. (Note, all "Breath Weapon" abilities are considered to be the same ability. You can replace what SORT of Breath Weapon you have, of course.)

Spoiler: Sidebar: Monster Mimic note, for Players and DMs

Show

Let me first say this: Yes, I'm well aware of the kinds of broken shenanigans that can come of this ability.

Now, I COULD go and create an exhaustive list of all Supernatural Abilities that can be Mimicked. But I'm not going to do that, as you may decide otherwise. So, instead, I'm going to leave it up to YOU (Both Player and DM) to decide if a particular ability is broken in the hands of a player. (I will however, make it a little easier and write a blacklist of abilities that I think are too powerful. I won't bother with anything beyond CR 12, however, as that's generally the extreme limit of what the PCs can fight in an E6 game.)

For example the Blink ability of a Blink Dog or the Petrifying Gaze ability of a Basilisk or Medusa. Both of these are stupidly powerful, so DM don't be afraid to say "That would be broken, I'm sorry" and Players, don't be upset or angry if the DM says that. If you ARE the type of person who would get angry over it, then don't play this class. Seriously, pick something else. ANYTHING else. Save your group the trouble.

On the other hand, some abilities AS-IS that are too strong can easily be toned down. The Blink Dog, for instance, also has Dimension Door. As-written, it's a little strong. But if we change it ever so slightly, say make it Close range rather than Long, it becomes an interesting thing to have. So, don't whip out the ban-hammer EVERY time, if toning an ability down would make it more PC-Viable, then for the love of the Random Number God, tone it down first.

One last thing to note, some abilities can come from creatures that can have various "versions", for lack of a better term. For example, an Air Elemental's Whirlwind ability differs depending on whether it's a Small elemental or Medium or a True Dragon's Breath Weapon. Because of this, I would highly, HIGHLY recommend that if your Effective Mimic Level increases, then the ability automatically upgrades. For instance, if you Mimicked the Whirlwind ability of a Small Air Elemental (HD 2), when your EML becomes 4, then it upgrades to the Whirlwind ability of a Medium Air Elemental (HD 4). (Shocker Lizards are similar. A Medium Monster Mimic counts as two Shocker Lizards (Therefore gets Lethal Shock), while a Small Monster Mimic counts as one.)

Anyway, with that out of the way, the Ability Blacklist (My opinion of course, your's may differ.)

Spoiler: Blacklist

Show

I will say again. This is NOT a "You can have these abilities" list. This is the opposite. This is an "You may not, EVER, have these abilities" list.

Aboleth: Enslave (Dominate Person effect.)

Alip: Madness, Wisdom Drain.

Archon Traits: Magic Circle Against Evil, Teleport, Tongues.

Archon (Hound): Change Shape. (Possible to Nerf it, true. But the Monster Mimic has Mimic Form. So...)

Avoral: True Seeing, Lay on Hands. (Fear Aura is only 1/day and Speak with Animals is... Speak with Animals. So...)

Barghest: Feed, Change Shape. (I REALLY don't need to explain why. Right!?)

Basilisk: Stone Gaze

Beholder (And Gauth): Eye Rays, Antimagic Cone

Blink Dog: Blink

Bodak: Death Gaze

Bralani: Alternate Form, Tongues (Neither's broken per sey. They're just redundant.)

Chaos Beast: Corporeal Instability

Choker: Quickness (Obvious, really.)

Cockatrice: Petrification.

Couatl: Change Shape, Ethereal Jaunt, Telepathy

Demon Traits: Telepathy

Demon (Babu): Protective Slime (Not because it's broken, more because it's a headache to figure out.)

Demon (Bebilith): Plane Shift

Demon (Quasit): Alternate Form

Demon (Retriever): Eye Rays

Demon (Succubus): Change Shape, Tongues

Devil Traits: Telepathy

Devil (Barbed Devil): Barbed Defence

Devil (Chain Devil): Dancing Chains

Devil (Erinyes): True Seeing

Devil (Imp): Alternate Form

Devourer: Trap Essence, Spell Deflection

Doppelganger: Detect Thoughts, Change Shape

Dragon, True: Alternate Form

Dragon, True (Silver Dragon): Cloudwalking

Dragon Turtle: Dragon Turtle Breath Weapon

Dryad: Tree Dependent (Banned not because it's powerful. But because only an idiot would Mimic this.)

Ethereal Filcher/Maruder: Ethereal Jaunt

Formian Taskmaster: Dominate Monster

Frost Worm Trill, Frost Worm Breath Weapon

Ghaele: Gaze, Alternate Form, Protective Aura

Ghost: All of them. (Too many to list).

Ghoul/Ghast: Ghoul Fever

Golem (Clay Golem): Haste

Gorgon: Gorgon Breath Weapon

Hag (Green Hag): Weakness

Hag (Sea Hag): Horrific Appearance

Invisible Stalker: Natural Invisibility (Do I really have to explain why? DO I!?)

Lamia: Wisdom Drain

Lammasu: Magic Circle Against Evil

Leonal: All except Speak with Animals. (I'm not gonna lie. At this point, I can't be arsed to write out EVERY blacklisted ability if something has multiple.)

Lich: All

Lycanthrope: All

Medusa: Petrifying Gaze

Mohrg: Paralyzing Touch, Create Spawn

Mummy: Mummy Rot

Naga: All

Night Hag: All

Nightmare: Astral Projection, Etherealness

Nymph: All

Ogre Mage: All

Phantom Fungus: Greater Invisibility

Phase Spider: Ethereal Jaunt

Phasm: Alternate Form

Psudodragon: Telepathy

Rakshasa: Detect Thoughts

Rast: Paralyzing Gaze, Flight

Ravid: Animate Objects, Flight

Satyr: Pipes

Shadow: All

Shadow Mastiff: Shadow Blend

Shield Guardian: Find Master (Not because it's broken, of course. But because it's useless.)

Spectre: Create Spawn

Sprite (Grig): Fiddle

Unicorn: Magic Circle against evil

Vampire: All, except Energy Drain

Vargouille: Kiss

Wight: Create Spawn

Wraith: All, except Unnatural Aura

Xill: Planewalk

Yeth Hound: Flight

Spoiler: Nerfed abilities

Show

These are nerfs to abilities that I personally would make if I were DMing this class. Again, this is all my opinion.

Assassin Vine: Entangle: Usable a number of times per day equal to your Monster Mimic level. (For ease of writing, I will use "Class Level/Day" as shorthand for this nerf.)

Blink Dog: Dimension Door: Short Range, rather than Long. (It already has another Nerf, due to the fact that all Mimicked will be at least a Standard Action.)

Cloaker: Shadow Shift: Pick ONE effect.

Devil (Barbed Devil): Fear: Class Level/Day

Devil (Bone Devil): Fear Aura: Class Level/Day

Knowledge of Monsters: The Monster Mimic gets an untyped +2 bonus to all Knowledge Checks (Except Nobility and Royalty, and Architecture and Engineering) but only when attempting to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities.

Mimic Natural Weapon (Su): Whenever you use Mimic Ability, you may instead attempt to Mimic a Natural Weapon of the target.

As this ability is Supernatural in nature, you do not have to physically possess the correct appendage. Instead, whenever you make an attack with a Natural Weapon, a sort of apparition appears to make the attack. You must still be in a position to ACTUALLY attack, though.

You may only have a number of Natural Weapons equal to (Class Level/2), but you may decide which Natural Weapon is the Primary each time you attack.

This class ability allows you to take the Multiattack feat, even if you don't have three Natural Weapons.

Ability Focus: You gain the feat Ability Focus as a Bonus Feat. If you already have this feat, you instead gain any other feat for which you qualify.

At the start of each day, you may change what ability Ability Focus applies to.

Mimic Form (Su): Whenever you use Mimic Ability, you may instead attempt to Mimic the creature's physical appearance.

You may only have one form at level 4. You gain a second at level 6.

This effect is partially illusionary, but creatures cannot "disbelieve" your illusion. Creatures with True Seeing see you for what you really are, though. However, you gain the Movement Modes and any Languages of the creature you're Mimicking. If the creature possesses no language natively, you are still able to communicate with other creatures of the same kind.

In addition, you also gain the Extraordinary abilities and size of the form you're mimicking. But, as before, you can only Mimic the form of a creature who's Hit Dice is equal to or less than your Monster Mimic level.

If you enter an Anti-magic field, you "revert" back to your ordinary form.

Copycat (Ex): Select an Ally who has acted since your last turn. You replicate any mundane actions they did, using whatever modifiers they did (regardless of whether or not you even qualify for the modifier), except you may select new targets. You may not replicate "passive" effects, or anything that is in response to an enemy attack.

For example, if a Brawler ally moved his full speed (Movement bonus included) and Full attacked as a standard action with his unarmed damage bonus, then you could the EXACT SAME THING. Even if you're wearing armour (And therefore cannot normally benefit from Faster than the Naked Eye.). But if, say, a Zealot activated an aura, you could not replicate the Aura.

Master Mimic (Su): ???

So, there's the basic overview. No Archetypes, just yet, but a good, solid base I say. So, any thoughts?

I love the concept, and I think the execution is pretty good under the circumstances - any "Blue Mage" or "Mimic" type class is obviously going to be a pain in the ass to deal with, but I think you did a good job of laying out the problem and suggesting methods of dealing with it. I feel like any other way (like making an explicit spell list, for example) would impinge on the creative potential of the class.

I'm at a loss for archetypes, though. The base class is specific enough that I'm not sure how to narrow it down further. Maybe one archetype might focus on shapeshifting, natural weapons, and getting up close and personal, another might focus on ranged attacks like rays and breath weapons, another might be a support class with better auras, buffs, and healing?

**Sgt. Cookie** · 2015-07-20, 07:06 PM (ISO 8601)

A pretty easy archetype would just be focusing on a particular Type. So, one Monster Mimic could be really good at Mimicking the abilities of Dragons, while another is really good at pretending to be an Undead. On the flip side, you'd find it difficult to mimic abilities that aren't from your preferred type.

So, a Dragon Mimic might be better with its Breath Weapons, but couldn't make heads or tails of an Outsider's abilities.

Mechanically, this would translate to a bonus to your "effective Monster Mimic level", maybe something like +2 or x1.5 MM level, as far as the aforementioned Dragon abilities are concerned, but you'd take a -1 penalty to your MM EL for the Outsider's.

As for a Medium power, maybe something like, I dunno, a more "real" transformation into the creature and the Greater power, you walk around with your chosen Type. Unless it would be detrimental, of course.

Master Mimic, I have an idea for. Just now, actually:

Master Mimic (Su): Select a Type (Not subtype) that either of the creatures you can mimic via Monster Mimic possess.

Your maximum hit points increase by the number of sides on the Type's hit dice. If that Type gains +1 base attack bonus for its first Hit Dice, you gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls. If that class gains a +2 base bonus for its Fortitude, Reflex, or Will saving throws for its first Hit Dice, you gain a +2 bonus on your saving throws of the same kind.

(Why yes, this IS a modified version of Xefas' "Omnicapable Human Spirit Ignition" from the Mythic Human. Hell, he even says "Find mechanics that do what you want and then tweak.". So I don't feel bad about shamelessly stealing it.)

As for other archetypes, not really sure. Those are some good ideas, though.

**OzzyKP** · 2015-07-21, 09:07 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Gnorman

I dig it. I'm admittedly not very good at coming up with interesting out-of-combat abilities, so I'm glad someone else is. I think these are pretty reasonable abilities, and I like the role of the Charlatan as "rogue in plain sight." I don't know how explicitly magical you want to get with this (seemingly not) but a high-level ability for an archetype like this might be to be able to actually change shape, a la Alter Self. I've tried to take most shapeshifting effects out of spell lists, or restrict them very narrowly, but I think this is a situation where it both makes sense and wouldn't be terribly off the charts, power-wise.

I'm glad you like it. You are right that I've tried to limit the abilities to be non-magical.

Looking over the Alter Self spell the only benefits that can't be had from a perfect disguise skill are this bit (and being instant):

You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.

I admit this is a pretty nice bonus (and not over powered), but it seems to be stepping on the toes of Druid/Green Mage shapeshifters. Any other benefit from Alter Self is replicated just fine through Disguise. I'm ok with incorporating Alter Self if you want, but I think it does pretty well without having to do anything magical. I really like the Deadly Legerdemain ability I made, that's one of my favorite parts of the character, I'll boost the number of uses. I like the idea of a character based on three skills and using those three skills together for effects both in and out of combat. It all fits together very well thematically and provides some variety to the character (so it isn't like a tripping character that just does one thing well and that's it). Feinting as a swift action is pretty good for combat because the rogue can basically (if rolls are successful) use sneak attack damage every round. Disguises are good for out of combat. There are social bonuses too. How about this as a boost:

Lesser Archetype Power: Creating a disguise only take 1d4 minutes of work and a charlatan can always take 10 on Disguise, Bluff and Sleight of Hand. A charlatan takes no penalties for impersonating a different race, gender or age, disguising as one size category larger has no penalties but takes 5x as long to create the disguise. Can feint as a swift action and gains the Assume Quirk skill trick.

Moderate Archetype Power: When using sleight of hand as a perform skill (juggling, Legerdemain, etc) can fascinate as a bard. Gain free Hidden Blade skill trick. While engaged in combat, you may attempt to use the Sleight of Hand skill to pickpocket an enemy as a swift action without provoking an attack of opportunity.

Greater Archetype Power: Three times per day a charlatan can make use of one of the following abilities:

Second Impression: If an observer sees through your disguise with a successful Spot check, you can (as an immediate action) attempt a Bluff check to convince him that he's mistaken. Use the observer's Spot check result as the DC for your Bluff check; if you succeed, the observer ignores the evidence of his own senses in favor of what your disguise attempts to show. You must be aware of the observer's discovery in order to use this trick; for example, you can't use it against someone viewing you secretly, nor can you use it against someone who sees through your disguise but keeps that information secret. When in doubt, the DM should allow a character to use this trick if she has any reason to fear that her cover has been blown.

Deadly Legerdemain: Use her Hidden Blade skill trick to make a free attack on a target she has fascinated. No one, including the victim, knows where the attack came from, and combat does not begin. The charlatan hides the weapon used in the attack as a free action after the attack. The attack must be made in a public place with other people nearby. If the charlatan makes a successful bluff check, she can direct blame for the attack onto another person nearby, thus framing them for the attack. A failed bluff check results in the victim of the attack (and all onlookers) assigning equal blame to all present, including the charlatan.

We Go Way Back, You Can Trust Me: When successfully impersonating a friend or family member of the target the charlatan can add their disguise modifier to a diplomacy skill roll for adjusting a target's attitude, and can add their bluff skill modifier to a diplomacy skill roll for requesting the target take an action.

**Gnorman** · 2015-07-21, 04:06 PM (ISO 8601)

Didn't mean to imply that non-magical was a bad thing! I very much like the idea here of a street performer, juggling knives, gathering a crowd, then in a flash, slitting a noble's throat and disappearing into the crowd. It's a cool concept, and I wouldn't impose Alter Self on the archetype if it's not in your vision.

Though on an unrelated note, while we're on the subject of "adding magic to non-magic classes," I've been kicking around the idea of turning even mundane classes into casters, probably with bard progression. It makes a lot of sense for something like the Paladin (Zealot), Ranger (Hunter), and Bard (Poet) types, obviously, maybe even the Monk (though the Brawler is more explicitly non-magical than the 3.5 monk) but maybe not so much for class concepts like Rogue (Scoundrel) or Fighter (Gladiator, Sentinel) without a shift in flavor to something more like the Assassin or Duskblade. The second issue is, of course, is whether it will make the classes feel too undifferentiated. A Rogue is still going to essentially be a Rogue, but do you think the occasional Invisibility or Disguise Self spell steps too much on the toes of the casters? Is the imbalance between casters and non-casters just in my head?

Basically, I wanted to get your thoughts on the idea. I'm leaning heavily towards implementing it in the next edition, but it's not a done deal.

**OzzyKP** · 2015-07-21, 04:37 PM (ISO 8601)

Personally, for flavor reasons, I like playing non-magical classes. It is kind of like admiring Batman who goes toe-to-toe with enemies with all kinds of supernatural and alien abilities but is just a man with some cool toys. Having a Rogue or Ranger or someone who can get by on their wit or brawn or skill without any magic is worth holding on to.

Overall I think they are fairly balanced, and I like the nerfs you've made to the magical classes. I think E6 inherently nerfs magic users anyhow since they get more ridiculous as they get higher in levels. I like thinking about the classes as magic users who can do something great 6 times a day, and non-magic users who can do something less great, but whenever they want.

If a mage has X spells per day AND a bunch of free to use abilities as well, maybe those are a bit powerful. But on the whole, I think you've struck a good balance.

The biggest problem I see with the non-magic classes are with the whole feat system. Feats can be very powerful and open up a great number of abilities, but they require a lot of time and specialization to get much use out of them. Too many feat taxes and small, situational bonuses. An easy buff to non-magical classes could be to more liberally give out some building-block feats to classes & archetypes to fix this.

If you are considering adding more magic for the non-mages, I suggest you build on the Initiate/Warden/Rage Magus archetype idea and just give every class an archetype with spells.

**darklink_shadow** · 2015-07-21, 04:40 PM (ISO 8601)

I hate the idea of handing spells out to non-spell casters.

I love the idea of making a spell weaving archetype for each class.

I am strongly in favor of a feat overhaul. Dnd TOME, a fan made edition I played a lot in college, had a full feat overhaul that made the basic fighter a terror on the battlefield simply because he had so many feats, and feats were actually worth having.

**OzzyKP** · 2015-07-21, 04:44 PM (ISO 8601)

Another idea would be create a collection of skill tricks, combat feats & rogue tricks (from pathfinder) to give characters some non-magical, spell type things they can use each day. Instead of having each of these as feats that are always on and need to be permanently selected every two or three levels, you could give classes a list of them to use once a day like a spell. It would keep the roles and feel of the classes very separate from magic users, but could buff them a bit.

Just imagine this as your "spell list": http://dndtools.pw/feats/categories/skill-trick/

The issue I have with feats is that they are so situational. Take this skill trick, for example, Back on Your Feet. Do I really want to spend one of my limited feat spots to have the ability to stand up quickly if I get knocked down? Why would anyone do this? "Fireballs? Teleportation? Pshaw, I am really good at standing up!"

Now if this was one of 20 skill tricks you had in your bag of tricks that you could use up when the situation called for it... that'd be far more useful.

**Gnorman** · 2015-07-21, 05:01 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by OzzyKP

Personally, for flavor reasons, I like playing non-magical classes. It is kind of like admiring Batman who goes toe-to-toe with enemies with all kinds of supernatural and alien abilities but is just a man with some cool toys. Having a Rogue or Ranger or someone who can get by on their wit or brawn or skill without any magic is worth holding on to.

Overall I think they are fairly balanced, and I like the nerfs you've made to the magical classes. I think E6 inherently nerfs magic users anyhow since they get more ridiculous as they get higher in levels. I like thinking about the classes as magic users who can do something great 6 times a day, and non-magic users who can do something less great, but whenever they want.

If a mage has X spells per day AND a bunch of free to use abilities as well, maybe those are a bit powerful. But on the whole, I think you've struck a good balance.

The biggest problem I see with the non-magic classes are with the whole feat system. Feats can be very powerful and open up a great number of abilities, but they require a lot of time and specialization to get much use out of them. Too many feat taxes and small, situational bonuses. An easy buff to non-magical classes could be to more liberally give out some building-block feats to classes & archetypes to fix this.

If you are considering adding more magic for the non-mages, I suggest you build on the Initiate/Warden/Rage Magus archetype idea and just give every class an archetype with spells.

Originally Posted by darklink_shadow

I hate the idea of handing spells out to non-spell casters.

I love the idea of making a spell weaving archetype for each class.

I am strongly in favor of a feat overhaul. Dnd TOME, a fan made edition I played a lot in college, had a full feat overhaul that made the basic fighter a terror on the battlefield simply because he had so many feats, and feats were actually worth having.

My worry with making a spellcasting archetype for each non-casting class is that spells are generally such a good resource to have that there might not be any reason NOT to play the spellcasting archetype. I suppose I'd just have to make sure that the other archetypes are competitive enough.

As for feats, yes, absolutely. Some feats need to be consolidated with other feats, others need to be eliminated entirely and just made a basic option (TWF, Weapon Finesse, Power Attack, etc.). I really loved Tome's scaling feats, though those don't work quite as well in the E6 environment. I've tried very consciously to not make archetype abilities "here, have these specific bonus feats" because I'm assuming unlimited feats in an E6 game, and so they kind of lack some oomph. But it may not be a bad idea to have, say, the Sniper archetype's lesser ability be something like "oh hey you get Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Rapid Shot for free, and also ranged power attack, because these are the basic things you need to have to be an effective non-cleric 3.5 archer."

Originally Posted by OzzyKP

Another idea would be create a collection of skill tricks, combat feats & rogue tricks (from pathfinder) to give characters some non-magical, spell type things they can use each day. Instead of having each of these as feats that are always on and need to be permanently selected every two or three levels, you could give classes a list of them to use once a day like a spell. It would keep the roles and feel of the classes very separate from magic users, but could buff them a bit.

Yes, this would DEFINITELY be the plan if I didn't add spellcasting. I wanted to write my own maneuver system a long time ago (you can still see the scraps on the first page of the thread). I do also plan on giving the so-called "mundane" classes some kind of independent resource system. For example: one idea I'd been kicking around for the Scoundrel was Luck, a regenerating pool that functions much like action points do, allowing them to add bonuses, increase the size of their damage die, or even gaining 5E's Advantage concept. And then, I could have a Swashbuckler archetype whose whole schtick is "I have more Luck, and it regenerates faster."

Other concepts that may be coming down the line:
- Bonus spells in general get replaced with an Advanced Learning feature or some other kind of feature that allows customization
- Blue Mages get a Spellbook feature, allowing them to act like a severely-restricted 3.5 wizard (we're talking like, one spell per level per day here)
- Black Mages get their familiar back, with restrictions to avoid the whole "I am two characters" problem (familiar cannot be higher than CR 3, nor have more than 4 HD, nor can it be incorporeal, etc.)
- Red Mages get an at-will eldritch blast, become metamagic specialists, and we also get an Arcane Archer archetype
- White Mages get domains, hopefully alleviating their relatively limited spell list
- Green Mages get some kind of spirit/totem system, allowing them to change their bonus spells on the fly, albeit from a smaller pool
- Summoning spells removed from Blue and Red Mages

**darklink_shadow** · 2015-07-21, 08:33 PM (ISO 8601)

I may make up some mechanics for DND in the future and then toss them to you when I am done fiddling. I'm not a very good homebrewer. I don't know what balance is half the time, and I'll make two classes I think are the same power level and get told one is a rather weak T4 and the other is a solid T2.

But I have had lots of ideas... I might write some of them up here. Also, it's nice to see someone else who knows about the scaling feats in tome! And lastly, bonus feats are good if you make some very strong feats that can only be gained through class levels.

Anyways... I'll be back after I can make a collection of ideas to post.

**darklink_shadow** · 2015-07-21, 10:52 PM (ISO 8601)

Spoiler: Terramancer

Show

Terramancer
I control the very earth you walk upon.

Level	BAB	Fort	Ref	Will	Special
1st	+0	+0	+0	+2	Archetype Power (Lesser), Nature's Arsenal
2nd	+1	+0	+0	+3	X2
3rd	+2	+1	+1	+3	Archetype Power (Moderate)
4th	+3	+1	+1	+4	X4
5th	+3	+1	+1	+4	X5
6th	+4	+2	+2	+5	Archetype Power (Greater), X6

Special: Air and Fire improve reflex saves. Desert and Forest improve Fort Saves. A fifth Archetype based on stone and ore will improve hp. It will also give more defensive buffs.

This is supposed to be more of a support character that focuses on debuffs and buffs, except the fire dude, who is all about damage and being a front line fighter, with just enough cc to be annoying.

Weapons: I don't know.
Armor: Light
HP: 1d6
Skills: 4+INT

Nature's Arsenal: The Terramancer can craft a weapon from the very earth itself. This grants her two powers:

As a standard action, the Terramancer can lift a chunk of the nearby ground and direct it to hurl itself at an enemy. This is a ranged attack roll that doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. The attack can originate from any square the Terramancer can see within 50ft and has a range increment of 50ft. This attack deals half the Terramancer's class level rounded up in d4s.

As a move action, the Terramancer can pull a weapon from the earth, essentially gaining any simple weapon of their choice made from stone, dirt, ice, coral, or whatever makes sense. This weapon deals damage appropriate for its type.

Shifting Earth: As a move action, the Terramancer may move another target by move the earth underneath them. She can move them a total of 15ft in any direction. Obviously moving them down creates a pit, and moving them up creates a pillar of earth. When moving targets down, you create a sloping pit, which is difficult terrain, but otherwise traversable. They do provoke attacks of opportunity. You cannot move someone into water, or off a cliff, as you make earth move under them. If you put someone off a cliff, they would have land to step on.

Additionally, the Terramancer has Stone Shape at will, but only with unworked stone or dirt.

Hostile Earth: The Terramancer may make up to her level of 5ft squares difficult terrain as a free action. In addition, a Terramancer may add an effect to half her level, rounded down, of effected squares from the following list:

Jagged Earth: Entering this square, or starting your turn in this square deals 1d6 slashing damage.
Localized Quick Sand: Anyone who enters or starts there turn in this square must make a reflex save or be forced to spend a move action crawling out of the square.
Invigorating Mud: Anyone who ends their turn in this square has fast healing 1.
Dusty Storm: This square blocks line of sight.

Rock and a Hard Place: Some cliche ability.

Fist of Earth: The Terramancer has no range restriction of her earth based ranged attacks from Fist of Earth, she is only limited on attacking things based on what she can sense. The range increment of her attacks also increase to 150ft feet.

Archtypes:
Mons Igneus
What hath more raw fury than a volcano?
Lesser: Thera's Fury
Whenever the Terramancer uses Nature's Arsenal ranged attack to deal damage, she deals extra fire damage equal to one third her level, rounded up. In addition, her forged weapons are always made from obsidian, which are keen weapons that are deal one die larger damage.

Moderate: Step of Surtr
The Terramancer is immune to fire, and can step between any flames that are within line of effect to one another that she knows about as if they were in the same square. In addition, at her option, any square she enters or exits can be engulfed in flames that burn for one round after she leaves them. These flames deal 1d4 damage to anyone who enters them, and they catch on fire, taking an extra 1d4 damage per round until they spend a move action to put them out.

Greater: Vulcan's Forge
The Terramancer continues her quest to build fire and earth into a suitable armory. She can now create half plate made from flaming earth, to wear. This is treated as a normal half-plate made from steel, except anyone who attacks her with a natural weapon or attempts to grapple her takes 1d6 fire damage. In addition, her fires burn hotter than lesser fires, and pierce the first 15 points of fire resistance, deal half damage to fire resistance creatures, and any creature that would normally be healed by fire damage is not healed, but instead harmed by fire damage, though they also take half damage. A Terramancer is immune to her own flames, regardless of how I just slapped around immunity rules.

Finally, the Terramancer may use one of the following abilities once per day:

Thera's Burning Visage: The Terramancer may explode in flames, dealing 6d6 Inferno Damage in either a 60ft cone, a 100ft line, 30ft burst centered on him or a 15 ft burst centered within 50ft. Inferno Damage is a lot like Fire Damage, but it cannot be resisted by anything, except the Terramancer who casts it.

Surtr's Blazing Sword: Rather than pull a regular weapon from the Earth, the Terramancer may pull Surtr's Blazing Sword from the Earth. This sword lasts for one minute and deals fire damage equal to a huge full blade's normal damage, though the Terramancer can wield it in one hand as if it were a long sword. She does not add her strength as a bonus to this damage.

Vulcan's Infernal Armor: Her armor is better all day. Full Plate, and extra fire damage. Or something. Or maybe scrap this one, and do something else. I donno.

Truncatis
The forest provides.
Lesser: Pan's Vines
The Terramancer gets Snare at will, except the DC is less terrible. In addition, she also gets Entangle at will.

Moderate: Aranyani's Swiftness
The Terramancer can step between trees, or objects made of wood the same size category or large than herself. In addition she has pass without trace, woodland stride, and maybe other junk.

Greater: Abu's Garden

The Terramancer can rebuke and command as if she had an effective cleric level of 1.5 times whatever her effective cleric level is now. This stacks with everything.

In addition, she can use one of the following abilities once per day....

Pan's Snake Vine:
The Terramancer can summon a large viper with the greenbound template. This lasts until it dies, or 10 minutes. Or something. I donno.

Aranyani's:
The Terramancer can make up to her level in targets invisible for 1 hour, or until they take a hostile action. While invisible, they can all benefits of Aranyani's swiftness. Their feet also jingle as if bells were tied to them, but the sound seems to come from all around.

Abu's Harvest:
The Terramancer can cause nearby flowering plants to suddenly bear 5 magic fruits. These fruit last for 12 hours, and taste super great. They are also magic, and give the eater of the fruit the following benefits:
Healing.
Buffs.

Desert
There's nothing here.
Lesser:

Moderate:

Greater:

Sky
Not all who respect the earth are bound to it.
Lesser: Hathor's Glory
The Terramancer gains bardic music, but she must user Perform Sing. In addition, the Terramancer's Nature's Arsenal is changed so that she may attack with just air, or summon weapons made from the wind, called Wind Blades.

Moderate: Enlil's Flight
The Terramancer gains a sort of flight. Treat her as having perfect flying 30, except she cannot gain elevation by flying, though she can climb and hover great distances. Regardless of her movement, the Terramancer must spend a move action to maintain her flight, though she may also summon a Wind Blade as part of the same action as flying.

Greater: ?

The winds bring many things: life, death, or just change. Each morning, the Terramancer must attune one foci from the following

The Storm of Zeus: The Terramancer's Nature's Arsenal may deal sonic damage, and once per day she may make a lightening strike followed by a thunder clap. The lightening strike deals 3d6 Electric Damage and 3d6 Force damage to a target, and the thunder clap deafens all within 30ft of the target.

The Blessings of Ukko: ? Something buffy, and fluffy.

? Something else. Or I don't know.

Spoiler: Monster Mimic

Show

Archtypes

Becomer
If it walks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

Definition: Anything you have Mimic'd is "Any creature whose ability you have copied"

Lesser: I've got one of those!
If a creature's supernatural ability requires an organ or limb you do not have, you can manifest the organ or limb just long enough to use their stolen power.

Moderate: I want to be like You!
You gain alter self, limited only to allow you to alter yourself into something you have mimic'd. The HD limit is bigger.

Greater: It's like Puberty, but awesome!
If you have mimic'd all of a creature's su abilities, you can shape change into that creature, except you cannot use any abilities you don't have. You can do this 3 times per day, and it lasts for some period of time. The HD Limit is bigger.

Master Theif

Lesser: Smorgasbord!
You can steal a number of abilities from the same creature equal to half your mimic level rounded up +1.

Moderate: Mine's better!
The DC of any ability you steal is higher, by some amount.

Greater: It's mine now.
When you steal an ability from a creature, even if you already had that ability, it loses its own ability to perform that ability for a number of rounds equal to your level -1. Which is 5.

The Specialist

Lesser: Choose one type of Ranger Favored Enemy. This is now a Mimic Specialist. The DC to resist your mimicing is higher against your Specialist types.

Moderate: Choose one type of Ranger Favored Enemy. This is now a Mimic Specialist. Your HD for abilities you steal from your Specialist types are treated as * 1.5 for all effects.

Greater: Choose one type of Ranger Favored Enemy. Great.

Once per day per type you picked, you can do this cool thing. Neat.

Spoiler: Tricks

Show

Abberation: You resist one spell whose save you failed as if you were immune.

Animal: I don't know. Animal is a bad choice, so you just get to feel bad.

Construct: Everything cool I can think of, I am pretty sure you already get from Mimic Form except one thing. Rather than have an once daily, you simply get to be healed by conj(healing) crap.

Dragon: You roar with fierceness. Things are scared, but they get a will safe.

Elemental: I donno.

Fey: You can reflect one single target spell that you made your safe against back at any other target.

Giant: Can suddenly grow in size for 1 round, usable as an immediate action, up to +2 size categories.

Humanoid: You can reroll any d20 roll you want.

Magic Beast: You can double a DC of one of your abilities.

Monstrous Humanoid: See Humanoid.

Ooze: You can choose to be immune to magic for up to 5 rounds, as an immediate action.

Outsider: You can plane shift 2/day.

Plant: Ugh. I don't know.

Undead: You can use that spell that makes you invisible to undead at will.

Vermin: You can turn into a swarm for up to 10 minutes a day, in 1 minute intervals.

That's all for tonight.

**OzzyKP** · 2015-07-22, 11:24 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Gnorman

Yes, this would DEFINITELY be the plan if I didn't add spellcasting. I wanted to write my own maneuver system a long time ago (you can still see the scraps on the first page of the thread). I do also plan on giving the so-called "mundane" classes some kind of independent resource system. For example: one idea I'd been kicking around for the Scoundrel was Luck, a regenerating pool that functions much like action points do, allowing them to add bonuses, increase the size of their damage die, or even gaining 5E's Advantage concept. And then, I could have a Swashbuckler archetype whose whole schtick is "I have more Luck, and it regenerates faster."

Other concepts that may be coming down the line:
- Bonus spells in general get replaced with an Advanced Learning feature or some other kind of feature that allows customization
- Blue Mages get a Spellbook feature, allowing them to act like a severely-restricted 3.5 wizard (we're talking like, one spell per level per day here)
- Black Mages get their familiar back, with restrictions to avoid the whole "I am two characters" problem (familiar cannot be higher than CR 3, nor have more than 4 HD, nor can it be incorporeal, etc.)
- Red Mages get an at-will eldritch blast, become metamagic specialists, and we also get an Arcane Archer archetype
- White Mages get domains, hopefully alleviating their relatively limited spell list
- Green Mages get some kind of spirit/totem system, allowing them to change their bonus spells on the fly, albeit from a smaller pool
- Summoning spells removed from Blue and Red Mages

Hmm, if you were worried about spell casters being too strong, adding on all these boosts to them might not be the way to go. Stripping out all those things were part of the reason your spell casters are less strong than the normal ones.

As for the non-magic 'spells' I went through the list of Rogue Talents and Skill Tricks and very, very roughly grouped them according to the themes of each non-magic class/archetype (I skipped Engineer, I think they are set):

Spoiler: Non-Magic 'Spell' List by Class

Show

Spoiler: Scoundrel

Show

Spoiler: Sage

Show

-Canny Observer - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core...ny-observer-ex
-Follow Clues - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core...ollow-clues-ex
-Hard to Fool - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core...ard-to-fool-ex
-Heads Up - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core...ts/heads-up-ex
-Magic Adept - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core...ts/magic-adept
-Clarity of Vision - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-sc...-vision--3278/
-Collector of Stories - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-sc...stories--3280/
-Listen to This - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-sc.../listen--3292/
-Point it Out - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-sc...-it-out--3299/
-Spot the Weak Point - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-sc...k-point--3307/

Spoiler: Poet

Show

-Canny Observer - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core...ny-observer-ex
-Heads Up - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core...ts/heads-up-ex
-Feint Expert - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core...s/feint-expert
-Magic Adept - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core...ts/magic-adept
-Collector of Stories - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-sc...stories--3280/
-Listen to This - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-sc.../listen--3292/
-Swift Concentration - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-sc...tration--3309/

---Banshee (sonic damage?)
-Can hold breath an extra 4 rounds

---Bravado (two weapon fighting)
-Free, extra 5-ft step with no AoO
-Assault Leader http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core...ault-leader-ex
-Positioning Attack - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core...ning-attack-ex

---Doom Singer (debuff)
-Can hold breath an extra 4 rounds

---Skald (buff, armor)
-Can hold breath an extra 4 rounds

---Trickster (feinting, debuff)
-Free, extra 5-ft step with no AoO
-Improved Steal - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat...d-steal-combat
-False Theurgy - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-sc...theurgy--3287/
-Group Fake-Out - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-sc...ake-out--3288/
-Timely Misdirection - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-sc...rection--3310/

Spoiler: Noble

Show

Spoiler: Zealot

Show

-Can hold breath an extra 4 rounds
-+4 on Fortitude roll
-Resiliency - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core.../resiliency-ex
-Healing Hands - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-sc...g-hands--3289/

---Cavalier (horseys)
-Dismount Attack - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-sc...-attack--3283/

---Initiate (spells)

---Reaver (melee)
-Intimidating Prowess - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat...combat---final
-Never Outnumbered - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-sc...umbered--3295/

---Templar (Anti-mage/spell)
-Clarity of Vision - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-sc...-vision--3278/

Spoiler: Sentinel

Show

-Assault Leader http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core...ault-leader-ex
-Can hold breath an extra 4 rounds
-+4 on Fortitude roll
-Resiliency - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core.../resiliency-ex
-+4 AC vs. one attack

---Bastion (sheilds)

---Juggernaut (bullrush, overrun)
-Intimidating Prowess - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat...combat---final

---Landsknecht (reach)

---Praetorian (AC, AoO)
-Free, extra 5-ft step with no AoO

Spoiler: Hunter

Show

Spoiler: Gladiator

Show

-Free, extra 5-ft step with no AoO
-Assault Leader - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core...ault-leader-ex
-Expert Leaper - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core...pert-leaper-ex
-Can hold breath an extra 4 rounds
-+4 on Fortitude roll
-Positioning Attack - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core...ning-attack-ex
-Spend a swift action to make one standard attack

---Brute (rage, intimidate, charge)
-Intimidating Prowess - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat...combat---final
-Acrobatic Charge - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core...robatic-charge
-Never Outnumbered - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-sc...umbered--3295/

---Master at Arms (damage reduction, switch weapon)

---Pit Fighter (Attack of Opportunity)
-Back on Your Feet - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-sc...ur-feet--3277/
-Feint Expert - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core...s/feint-expert
-Timely Misdirection - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-sc...rection--3310/

---Rage Magus (spells)

---Vindicator (melee)
-Never Outnumbered - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-sc...umbered--3295/

Spoiler: Brawler

Show

-Free, extra 5-ft step with no AoO
-Assault Leader - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core...ault-leader-ex
-Escaping Stunt - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core...aping-stunt-ex
-Can hold breath an extra 4 rounds
-+4 on Fortitude roll
-Positioning Attack - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core...ning-attack-ex
-Spend a swift action to make one standard attack
-Back on Your Feet - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-sc...ur-feet--3277/

---Breathstealer (grappling)
-Easy Escape - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-sc...-escape--3284/
-Escape Attack - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-sc...-attack--3285/

---Bruiser (Reach, melee, two-handed weapons)
-Intimidating Prowess - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat...combat---final

---Cenobite (healing, Wisdom)
-Healing Hands - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-sc...g-hands--3289/

---Ravager (Multiple attacks)
-Intimidating Prowess - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat...combat---final
-Never Outnumbered - http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-sc...umbered--3295/

I hadn't gotten to feats yet (that's a daunting task) so Scoundrel has a lot more items than the more fighter-y classes, but it is a good start. I think there are a lot of nice thematic matches that can be made with each of these, but I just worry about archetypes/classes being too narrow. Everything related to poison I gave to the silencer, everything related to hiding/stealth I gave to the phantom. Grappling stuff can go to the breathstealer. But is that too narrow? I dunno. I like the Charlatan I made, it has a few more uses in and out of combat than some of the others.

Anyhow, when going through this and trying to find a very simple theme to label each archetype with I started thinking about the Sage, Poet & Noble classes. It feels like all are elements of bards that got put into their own classes. Traditional bards were used for social stuff, knowledge, spells and singing. Social stuff became nobles, knowledge became sages, and poets got left with singing & spells. I rather like the idea of the Sage & Noble classes. I think I'd recommend just getting rid of the Poet class. Put a singing character (and a spell casting character) under Sage. I think Sage could be a good place to house a monster mimic archetype too without necessarily making it its own class (or incorporating some of Sgt. Cookie's ideas into the core Sage class features).

**Gnorman** · 2015-07-26, 10:19 PM (ISO 8601)

Fair points, and I'll take them under advisement. Good work on rounding up those skill tricks and stunts (I'm not super familiar with Pathfinder in general, and especially not stunts, but they seem fairly intuitive), thanks for that. I'd like to at least have a spellcasting archetype for all non-casting classes - allows me to get concepts like the Duskblade, Assassin, Blackguard, etc. in as well as more traditional ones like the paladin, bard, and ranger. I'm also struck by your observation about the narrow nature of archetypes - it's a fair criticism (although perhaps you didn't intend it as such) that I intend to correct. Some of it is the fact that I've painted myself into a fairly small corner with the names in my desire to avoid repeating standard 3.5 titles. Silencer, instead of Assasin, for example. Silencer, as I have written it and perhaps as the name implies, is all about poison. An Assassin can be about poison, but also stealth, a bit of magic, et cetera. Really, some broadening of the conceptual space for archetypes might be nice.

As far as strengthening the casters go, I wasn't trying to increase their power so much as their versatility. Though you're right, adding in something as eminently abusable as a wizard spellbook or domains definitely skews the potential. Mostly, I was just casting about for class features (other than spellcasting) that make the mages feel unique and different from one another - the green mage gets shapeshifting, which definitely helps, but the others are a bit more lackluster. All things considered, I'd like to maybe end up with fewer archetypes and classes, but have each one feel more distinct. So that's where I'm coming from - I would like a blue mage to play very differently from a green mage, even though they're both participating in the shared resource system of spellcasting. I remain open to suggestions on that front!

I'm keeping the Poet around because the bard has a lot of traction as a concept, especially in D&D. I'd be more inclined to eliminate the Sage/Noble, and return those concepts to the Poet, than to eliminate the Poet itself. However, I still maintain a certain amount of stubborn pride in my attempts to design away from core classes. Unfortunately, the Noble and the Sage don't feel quite so complete to me. When I was going through "skilled classes" originally, I was struck by how much narrower the concepts are than in the spellcasting classes or the combat classes. As I mentioned previously in the thread, future versions of this project may eliminate the distinction between combat and skilled classes entirely, and just have the rogue/bard concepts be in the "Non-Casting" category. I'd still want to keep the basic concepts of the Sage (monster knowledge, denial abilities, and perhaps a splash of Factotum-style casting) and Noble (minions, buffs, and skewing the action economy), but I might turn them into archetypes instead. The Engineer is just too well-developed at this point for me to consider abandoning it, though the archetypes need work.

**darklink_shadow** · 2015-07-26, 10:48 PM (ISO 8601)

I'm probably not going to finish that Terramancer. If it looks like something you'd use, it's yours to fix up. If not, that's fine too.

Let me know how you like the Mimic Archetypes I made. They probably could use some balancing.

**Sgt. Cookie** · 2015-07-30, 08:48 PM (ISO 8601)

Just a small update:

I altered the Summoner slightly. The Summoner's Companion's Hit Dice will always be equal to the Summoner's Level. As otherwise, the Summoner's Companion could end up being squishier than the Summoner!

**OzzyKP** · 2015-07-31, 09:35 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Gnorman

Fair points, and I'll take them under advisement. Good work on rounding up those skill tricks and stunts (I'm not super familiar with Pathfinder in general, and especially not stunts, but they seem fairly intuitive), thanks for that. I'd like to at least have a spellcasting archetype for all non-casting classes - allows me to get concepts like the Duskblade, Assassin, Blackguard, etc. in as well as more traditional ones like the paladin, bard, and ranger. I'm also struck by your observation about the narrow nature of archetypes - it's a fair criticism (although perhaps you didn't intend it as such) that I intend to correct. Some of it is the fact that I've painted myself into a fairly small corner with the names in my desire to avoid repeating standard 3.5 titles. Silencer, instead of Assasin, for example. Silencer, as I have written it and perhaps as the name implies, is all about poison. An Assassin can be about poison, but also stealth, a bit of magic, et cetera. Really, some broadening of the conceptual space for archetypes might be nice.

I'd go with an Assassin archetype that combines silencer & phantom (poison + stealth), and then add a ninja archetype that can cast spells (and keep acrobat & charlatan). Overall I think Scoundrel is one of the broader base classes you have.

Originally Posted by Gnorman

As far as strengthening the casters go, I wasn't trying to increase their power so much as their versatility. Though you're right, adding in something as eminently abusable as a wizard spellbook or domains definitely skews the potential. Mostly, I was just casting about for class features (other than spellcasting) that make the mages feel unique and different from one another - the green mage gets shapeshifting, which definitely helps, but the others are a bit more lackluster. All things considered, I'd like to maybe end up with fewer archetypes and classes, but have each one feel more distinct. So that's where I'm coming from - I would like a blue mage to play very differently from a green mage, even though they're both participating in the shared resource system of spellcasting. I remain open to suggestions on that front!

I agree that the magic classes can be given a few more base class abilities, I think green mages are fine with shapeshifting (though that is pretty powerful). As for the others, perhaps each can get a modification to their spells (like the effects of a metamagic feat) and some action they can take that doesn't involve spells. The worst thing for a mage is when their spells run out and they are essentially useless at that point. Having *something* they can do then would be nice.

Black - damage, summoning, creepiness
-Some bonus to damage? All damage dice round up, or a +X to damage on spells, or
-An at-will blast spell
http://dndtools.pw/feats/players-han...er-spell--848/

Blue - time, space
-Spell stealing (like from Sgt. Cookie's mimic idea)
-Teleportation (instead of the wayfarer power)
http://dndtools.pw/feats/players-han...n-spell--2330/
http://dndtools.pw/feats/magic-of-fa...n-spell--3137/

White - healing, buffs
-An at-will buff spell
-An at-will heal spell
http://dndtools.pw/feats/players-han...d-spell--1006/
http://dndtools.pw/feats/magic-of-fa...n-spell--3137/

Red - combat, armor
-Energy resistance 5
-Foes have higher spell failure chances
http://dndtools.pw/feats/magic-of-fa...terials--3625/
http://dndtools.pw/feats/players-han...ge-spell--897/
http://dndtools.pw/feats/defenders-o...h-spell--2392/

Green - nature
-I think green is all set

Originally Posted by Gnorman

I'm keeping the Poet around because the bard has a lot of traction as a concept, especially in D&D. I'd be more inclined to eliminate the Sage/Noble, and return those concepts to the Poet, than to eliminate the Poet itself. However, I still maintain a certain amount of stubborn pride in my attempts to design away from core classes. Unfortunately, the Noble and the Sage don't feel quite so complete to me. When I was going through "skilled classes" originally, I was struck by how much narrower the concepts are than in the spellcasting classes or the combat classes. As I mentioned previously in the thread, future versions of this project may eliminate the distinction between combat and skilled classes entirely, and just have the rogue/bard concepts be in the "Non-Casting" category. I'd still want to keep the basic concepts of the Sage (monster knowledge, denial abilities, and perhaps a splash of Factotum-style casting) and Noble (minions, buffs, and skewing the action economy), but I might turn them into archetypes instead. The Engineer is just too well-developed at this point for me to consider abandoning it, though the archetypes need work.

I like your attempts to design away from core classes, definitely keep that. Personally I really like skilled classes. But I can see reason to cut Noble/Sage/Poet down to two classes.

I've we're cutting either Noble or Sage, I think Duelist & Bravado can be combined. Banshee and Doomsinger I think can just be cut.... Ugh, I really just don't much like the Poet class. Maybe I am unenlightened, but bardic music seems like the most useless of class features. A +1 here or -1 there, it still requires a standard action to use.. I dunno. I really think it is less to build a class around than the better (imho) minion/lackey/diplomacy features of the Noble.

The two things it does, spells and inspiration could be more easily split to Noble & Sage (sage gets spells, noble gets singing) than splitting either the Sage or Noble. Now if you are reworking Poet to be a more swashbuckling, luck-based class, that I could get behind.

For the Sage, giving it limited spells would be good, and/or giving it some of the mimic features, or using the Tutor archetype abilities for the base class (a +1 or +2 only for the Sage, which won't be a front line fighter, seems misplaced).

**Gnorman** · 2015-08-26, 05:14 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by OzzyKP

I'd go with an Assassin archetype that combines silencer & phantom (poison + stealth), and then add a ninja archetype that can cast spells (and keep acrobat & charlatan). Overall I think Scoundrel is one of the broader base classes you have.

Yeah, that's not a bad idea. I'd been loosely toying with Swashbuckler (luck + direct combat), Assassin (poison + a bit of spellcasting), and Phantom (stealth + illusions). But Ninja has quite a lot of traction too, and people seem to object less frequently about spellcasting on a mundane class if it's explained away by "ninja magic." If I cut archetypes down to three per class (which I'm leaning towards doing), the social aspects of the Charlatan would probably get merged into the Swashbuckler.

I agree that the magic classes can be given a few more base class abilities, I think green mages are fine with shapeshifting (though that is pretty powerful). As for the others, perhaps each can get a modification to their spells (like the effects of a metamagic feat) and some action they can take that doesn't involve spells. The worst thing for a mage is when their spells run out and they are essentially useless at that point. Having *something* they can do then would be nice.

Absolutely agreed. I'd like to give each casting class a signature mechanic besides spellcasting.

Black - damage, summoning, creepiness
-Some bonus to damage? All damage dice round up, or a +X to damage on spells, or
-An at-will blast spell
http://dndtools.pw/feats/players-han...er-spell--848/

Summoning and debuffing is the name of the game here. They'll probably get some kind of permanent low-level summoning ability, or a familiar. I'd been toying with setting up an essentia-like system for them, whereby they can invest points in summoned creatures, familiars, an eldritch blast, or spellcasting, to various ends.

Blue - time, space
-Spell stealing (like from Sgt. Cookie's mimic idea)
-Teleportation (instead of the wayfarer power)
http://dndtools.pw/feats/players-han...n-spell--2330/
http://dndtools.pw/feats/magic-of-fa...n-spell--3137/

Yeah, this one's still a bit of a thematic grab bag: enchantment, illusion, divination, but also teleportation and air spells. Functionally, it should specialize in battlefield control and utility. At heart it's supposed to be the most "wizardly" of the classes, hence why I thought the spellbook feature might be most appropriate. Sharply limited to avoid abuse, of course. But from the playtesting I've seen done, the Blue Mage is probably the most popular spellcaster anyway (likely on the strength and variety of the spell list), so maybe it doesn't need the boost.

White - healing, buffs
-An at-will buff spell
-An at-will heal spell
http://dndtools.pw/feats/players-han...d-spell--1006/
http://dndtools.pw/feats/magic-of-fa...n-spell--3137/

This one's still a bit harder. I thought "domain!" because that's what the core cleric gets, allowing for a bit of spell list customization. But they still don't have a signature mechanic or niche. Yeah, they're good at healing and buffing, but they still need something more proactive. They're probably the second best spellcaster at face-smashing (behind Red), but they're also intentionally inferior in that regard to the core cleric. Maybe that was the wrong way to go about it. Or maybe I will give them some kind of a defensive ability, which, albeit reactive, might still be powerful enough to warrant inclusion. This one needs the most work, I think.

Red - combat, armor
-Energy resistance 5
-Foes have higher spell failure chances
http://dndtools.pw/feats/magic-of-fa...terials--3625/
http://dndtools.pw/feats/players-han...ge-spell--897/
http://dndtools.pw/feats/defenders-o...h-spell--2392/

Theme: face smashing and fireballs. For this one, I was thinking an at-will energy blast, and also expanding them to be especially adept at metamagic. Not quite sure what form this will take - either limited metamagic reduction, or high-level slots that can only be filled by modified spells. Maybe the Red Mage will end up as "magical damage" and the White Mage will take on more of a face-smashing role.

Green - nature
-I think green is all set

Yeah, it works surprisingly well. The spell list is all over the place, but I was thinking about it recently, and that's actually fine with me. It takes a little bit from all the other classes (damage, healing, utility, control, etc.) and firmly establishes itself as an excellent utility infielder type. Shapeshifting definitely complements that role, though I plan on decoupling some of the more onerous restrictions I placed upon it, or reintroducing the PHBII concepts that it originally drew on.

I like your attempts to design away from core classes, definitely keep that. Personally I really like skilled classes. But I can see reason to cut Noble/Sage/Poet down to two classes.

I've we're cutting either Noble or Sage, I think Duelist & Bravado can be combined. Banshee and Doomsinger I think can just be cut.... Ugh, I really just don't much like the Poet class. Maybe I am unenlightened, but bardic music seems like the most useless of class features. A +1 here or -1 there, it still requires a standard action to use.. I dunno. I really think it is less to build a class around than the better (imho) minion/lackey/diplomacy features of the Noble.

The two things it does, spells and inspiration could be more easily split to Noble & Sage (sage gets spells, noble gets singing) than splitting either the Sage or Noble. Now if you are reworking Poet to be a more swashbuckling, luck-based class, that I could get behind.

For the Sage, giving it limited spells would be good, and/or giving it some of the mimic features, or using the Tutor archetype abilities for the base class (a +1 or +2 only for the Sage, which won't be a front line fighter, seems misplaced).

There are a lot of good ideas in here which I will need time to unpack and think about, but I very much appreciate the perspective. If I'm going to keep the Bard around as a legacy choice, I would like it to be more than just a handful of +1 bonuses. In any case, thanks for taking the time to weigh in.

**OzzyKP** · 2015-09-29, 06:54 PM (ISO 8601)

Hey, I hope it is ok, but I really like your Sage ability of giving bonuses for identifying enemies and used it for a new class I made:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...-Base-Class%29

I beefed it up, but it is still the same Encyclopedic Knowledge ability. I'd love to hear what you think about the class and get your blessing to use the ability, thanks!

**Gnorman** · 2015-09-30, 09:46 PM (ISO 8601)

Go for it! I mostly adapted it from a combination of the Archivist's Dark Knowledge ability and the Knowledge Devotion feat anyway, so it's not like I have a claim to it.

**Sgt. Cookie** · 2015-10-05, 09:38 PM (ISO 8601)

Here's a new thing, intended to mimic the Final Fantasy style Red Mage, heavily influenced by Ziegander's 20 level version. He's not intended to be great at any one thing, just decent at everything. His spells hope to drive the point home, no fancy schmancy magic here, just solid, dependable Blasting and Healing. A small, SMALL, amount of Buffing, too. Anyway, have a looksie and tell me what you think:

The Spellslinger

Hit Die: 1d8
Class Skills: Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Heal, Jump, Knowledge (All), Listen, Perform, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Speak Language, Spellcraft, Spot, Survival, Swim, and Use Magic Device.
Skill Points: 4 + Int per level (4x at 1st)

Level	BAB	Fort	Ref	Will	Special	0lvl	1st	2nd
1st	+0	+0	+2	+2	Archetype Power (Lesser), Spellcasting, Panache	5	0+0	—
2nd	+1	+0	+3	+3	The Arts of War and Mercy	6	1+1	—
3rd	+2	+1	+3	+3	Archetype Power (Moderate)	6	2+2	—
4th	+3	+1	+4	+4	Spell Power	6	3+3	0+0*
5th	+3	+1	+4	+4	Metamagical	6	3+3	1+1
6th	+4	+2	+5	+5	Greater Archetype Power, Bonus Feat	6	3+3	2+2

*Provided the Spellslinger has a high enough Charisma or Wisdom score to get a bonus spell of this level.

Spoiler

Show

Proficiencies: The Spellslinger is proficient with light armour and all simple weapons, plus the longsword, rapier, sap, short sword, shortbow, and whip. He does not suffer from arcane spell failure while in light armour.

Spellcasting: A Spellslinger casts both Arcane and Divine spells, from two specialised lists which are included below. The Spellslinger need not prepare his spells ahead of time, he may cast them spontaneously. The first set of spell slots in each column are his Arcane spells per day; the second his Divine spells per day.

Cantrips and Orisons are interchangeable, slot-wise. He still requires 8 hours of rest to refresh his spells.

A Spellslinger requires both Charisma and Wisdom, which determines the DC and bonus spells of his Arcane and Divine spells, respectively.

Archetype Power: At 1st level, the Spellslinger chooses an archetype from the following list. Each Archetype offers a set of powers and adds bonus spells known to the Spellslinger's list, which are listed below and received when he becomes capable of casting spells of the same level. The first spell in a pair is added to his Arcane list and the second to his Divine.

Panache (Ex): A Spellslinger may substitute his Charisma modifier for her Strength or Dexterity modifier when making an attack roll with a simple weapon, a longsword, a rapier, a sap, a shortsword, a shortbow, or a whip; or an attack roll with a weapon-like spell or effect.

The Arts of War and Mercy (Ex): A Spellslinger adds his Charisma Modifer to Weapon Damage rolls (See Panache for applicable weapons) and to the damage of all Arcane spells that deal Hitpoint Damage.

A Spellslinger adds his Wisdom Modifier to your AC, as long as he wears light or no armour, and to the amount of hit points healed by any Divine spell that heals hit point damage.

Spell Power (Ex): A Spellslinger adds 1 to the Save DC of his Spells and to his Effective Caster Level for determining level-dependent spell variables such as damage dice or range, and to all Caster Level checks. His actual Caster Level does not change.

Metamagical (Ex): Whenever a Spellslinger uses a Metamagic Feat, the feat's level increase upon a spell is reduced by one (this can't reduce an increase to less than one level, or less than zero levels if the increase is already +0) and does not cause an increase in Casting Time.

Additionally, the Spellslinger may, a number of times per day equal to half the relevent Ability Modifer, cast a Metamagic adjusted spell as if he had a Third level Arcane and Divine spell slot (Yes, Highten Spell can be used. No Highten Spell cannot be reduced.).

Bonus Feat (Ex): At sixth level, a Spellslinger gains a Bonus Feat, chosen from the list of Fighter Bonus Feats, any Metamagic Feat or any Item Creation Feat.

The Spellslinger must meet the prerequisites for the feat, but is treated as if he had a BAB of +6 and a Third Level Spell Slot (And Spell Known) and possesses one Metamagic feat.

Spellslinger Spell Lists:

Arcane:
0: Acid Splash, Detect Magic, Inflict Minor Wounds, Read Magic, Prestidigitation, Ray of Frost
1st: Burning Hands, Chill Touch, Colour Spray, Inflict Minor Wounds, Magic Missile, Produce Flame, Ray of Enfeeblement, Shield, Shocking Grasp
2nd: Acid Arrow, Align Weapon, Flaming Sphere, Ghoul Touch, Inflict Moderate Wounds, Scorching Ray, Shatter

Divine:
0: Cure Minor Wounds, Detect Poison, Guidance, Purify Food and Drink, Resistance,
1st: Cure Light Wounds, Deathwatch, Detect Good/Evil/Chaos/Law, Mage Armour, Magic Weapon, Protection from Good/Evil/Law/Chaos, Shield of Faith
2nd: Aid, Blur, Cure Moderate Wounds, Protection from Arrows, Resist Energy, Spiritual Weapon, Status

Archetypes

Duskblade

Bonus Spells:
1st: True Strike, Cause Fear
2nd: Touch of Idiocy, Eagle's Spleandour

Lesser Archetype Power: If an Arcane Spell's Damage is dependent on the Duskblade's Caster Level, he ignores any restrictions or maximums to the damage inherent to the spell.

Moderate Archetype Power: A Duskblade can use a standard action to cast any Arcane touch spell or ranged touch spell he knows and deliver the spell through his weapon with a melee attack. Casting a spell in this manner does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The spell must have a casting time of 1 standard action or less. If the melee attack is successful, the attack deals damage normally; then the effect of the spell is resolved.

Greater Archetype Power: Once per Encounter, a Duskblade may have his Acid, Cold, Electricity and Fire Arcane spells deal damage as if it were one of the other four. (For instance, Acid Arrow dealing Fire damage, or Burning Hands dealing Cold damage.)

Combat Medic

Bonus Spells:
1st: Cure Light Wounds*, Sanctuary
2nd: Cure Moderate Wounds*, Lesser Restoration
*Yes, added to the Arcane List. Gains the Divine benefit from Arts of War and Mercy, despite being Arcane, now.

Lesser Archetype Power: Anyone healed Hit Point damage by a Combat Medic gains Temporary Hitpoints equal to the Combat Medic's Wisdom Modifer, that last for a number of rounds equal to half that number.

Moderate Archetype Power: A number of times per day equal to his Wisdom Modifier, a Combat Medic may cast any Cure X spell as a Swift Action.

Greater Archetype Power: Once per Encounter, a Combat Medic may cast any Cure X spell as if it were Maximised.

Wanderer

Bonus Spells:
1st: Charm Animal, Goodberry
2nd: Animal Messenger, Barkskin

Lesser Archetype Power: A Wanderer's base land speed is increased by 10ft and you always know which way North is. A Wanderer also adds Create Water to his list of Orisons.

Moderate Archetype Power: A Wanderer gains the Wild Empathy Ability as if he were a Druid of his Spellslinger level, except that Wild Animals are usually Indifferent, rather than Unfriendly.

Greater Archetype Power: A Wanderer is considered to be permanently under the effects of a Sanctuary spell, except that it is an Extraordinary effect and only applies to Ordinary Animals (those with Intelligence scores of 1 or 2). A dire animal or an animal trained to attack or guard ignores this ability.

Urbane

Bonus Spells:
1st: Charm Person, Comprehend Languages
2nd: Tongues, Enthrall

Lesser Archetype Power: An Urbane gains the ability to alter his appearance as though using a disguise self spell, this does not affect their possessions. This is not an illusory effect but a minor physical alteration of features. The Urbane can use this ability at will and lasts until he chooses to change again or is killed in which case he reverts to his natural form. A true seeing spell reveals his natural form. When in use this ability gives the Urbane a +10 circumstance bonus to disguise checks. Using this ability is a Full-Round action.

Moderate Archetype Power: Whenever someone attempts to identify what spell an Urbane is casting, they must succeed on a Spellcraft check, opposed by the Urbane's Bluff check. If they fail by 5 or more, they do not believe the Urbane is casting a spell at all (At least until he, y'know, actually casts it), otherwise you believe it to be some other spell.

Greater Archetype Power: A number of times per day equal to half your Charisma Modifier, you may use Glibness as a Spell-Like ability, using your Spellslinger Caster Level as Glibness'.

**Gnorman** · 2015-10-26, 05:08 PM (ISO 8601)

I like the concept, the base class, and the Duskblade and Combat Medic. Very red mage-y, but not too powerful, and the limited spell list fits the role quite well. Wanderer and Urbane seem a little underdeveloped / out of character right now, though.

A few minor issues:

1. There's at least one minor inconsistency in your table - Archetype Power (Lesser) vs. Greater Archetype Power

2. With the Duskblade, am I to assume that the "ignore any caps inherent in the spell" allows you to increase your caster level above your hit dice? While Practiced Spellcaster is out (capped at HD), I can envision a very, very nasty build that uses Arcane Thesis, reserve feats, and various other CL boosters to throw out CL 10+, Maximized Shocking Grasp attacks. Nice and evil, though the investment required probably limits its potential for abuse. Could do it with Scorching Ray, too, although you'd have to settle for Empowered 12d6 attacks.

3. I'm a touch confused by the metamagic ability - when you say "relevant ability modifier," are those severable, or do you have to pick one or the other? Does that mean I can use it on Arcane spells 2x per day, and on Wisdom spells 1x day if I have an Intelligence of 18 and a Wisdom of 14?

4. With Arts of War and Mercy and the Combat Medic, couldn't you just eliminate the Arcane/Divine divide altogether? The Red Mage doesn't seem to have any Arcane spells that heal, nor Divine spells that deal, hit point damage.

**Sgt. Cookie** · 2015-10-26, 07:31 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Gnorman

I like the concept, the base class, and the Duskblade and Combat Medic. Very red mage-y, but not too powerful, and the limited spell list fits the role quite well. Wanderer and Urbane seem a little underdeveloped / out of character right now, though.

True. Needed to "pad out" the archetypes, though.
Hm, one that blends them together a little more...

A few minor issues:

1. There's at least one minor inconsistency in your table - Archetype Power (Lesser) vs. Greater Archetype Power

Ah, damn. Didn't notice. Will change.

2. With the Duskblade, am I to assume that the "ignore any caps inherent in the spell" allows you to increase your caster level above your hit dice? While Practiced Spellcaster is out (capped at HD), I can envision a very, very nasty build that uses Arcane Thesis, reserve feats, and various other CL boosters to throw out CL 10+, Maximized Shocking Grasp attacks. Nice and evil, though the investment required probably limits its potential for abuse. Could do it with Scorching Ray, too, although you'd have to settle for Empowered 12d6 attacks.

No, this doesn't affect your ACTUAL caster level. Rather, it basically gives you, say, do 6d4 Fire Damage from Burning Hands, rather than be capped out at 5.

3. I'm a touch confused by the metamagic ability - when you say "relevant ability modifier," are those severable, or do you have to pick one or the other? Does that mean I can use it on Arcane spells 2x per day, and on Wisdom spells 1x day if I have an Intelligence of 18 and a Wisdom of 14?

Last one. Although, the Spellslinger doesn't need Intelligence, he uses Charisma. But, you're correct in the statement. Any suggestions as to clear up the wording?

4. With Arts of War and Mercy and the Combat Medic, couldn't you just eliminate the Arcane/Divine divide altogether? The Red Mage doesn't seem to have any Arcane spells that heal, nor Divine spells that deal, hit point damage.

Good point, on that one. Will change it up.

Thread: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

Re: Gnorman's E6 Compendium

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions