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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Kholai View Post
    Eldest: Note that by the literal text, they may use their ability without it being deducted from their daily limit. This does not dispense the ability to use it if they would otherwise not be able to by not having any remaining inspirations left, or by only having one daily use left for two-inspiration-use abilities.

    As another viable alternative, they may simply regain one of their expended uses of inspiration for the day as a swift action; this is almost the same thing, except not quite so potent.
    The free inspiration ability is already the weakest of the three, giving you one more use of inspiration is far, far weaker (you can't use the 2/3 cost inspirations, for instance). Compare with the healing ability.

    They can do this every time they "may make" an attack of opportunity (which is not the same thing as hitting with, or even "refraining from", an attack of opportunity). Imagine a line of goblins around the world all drawing their swords split seconds after one another. The Pit Fighter has now 10' stepped his way across thousands of miles.

    Incidentally, the way the major archetype power is worded, it doesn't actually use up an AoO to make a Full Attack. Possibly this should be something along the lines of: "Any time the Pit Fighter makes an attack of opportunity they may make a full attack rather than a single attack."

    Maybe limit their 5' steps to one extra one per round, stop it from being Fancy Footworkable, or possibly tie it to actually taking the AoO. Since their AoO-step also means that nobody wielding a reach weapon that also can't be used in melee can make a full attack against them.

    Level 4 rework: A Sentinel may take one additional Immediate action per turn, so long as that immediate action is used to Intercept a blow.

    By RAW, a Free action cannot be performed outside of your turn except for speaking.
    Actually, the closest RAW (or at least the SRD) comes to adressing it is by saying you can preform 1 standard, swift, and move actions per round, and no limit on the number of free actions. Per round, not per turn.

    In fact, considering the logical extent of this ability, a Juggernaut who rolls a 20 (say 30, with 16 Str, Weapon Focus and 6 BAB), against a Tyrannosaurus that rolled a 2 (22), has just knocked a tyrannosaurus back eight feet and knocked them onto their back.

    Cool? Hell yes. Little extreme though? What about a free bullrush attempt with a bonus pushback equal to half the difference if they succeed?
    You rolled a 20 and the other guy rolled a 2. The other guy has to be freaking legendary to win that round. Think of all the skill things you can get by putting a little effort in and getting a 20.

    Rally the Troops: Death is arguably a negative status by RAW.
    By RAW, death isn't defined very well. The only negative part is that you can't receive healing. Nothing preventing you from taking any action. And you can't be damaged any further, because your Con is at 0, which means you are dead, which means your health is permanently at -10. If you say dead people can't take actions, you are moving into (incredibly well supported and widely held as valid) RAI. So death is, by RAW, not negative because it is a net gain in power for the player. And if you try that with your DM, you will get hit with books.
    So go ahead and state "except for death", but be aware of how rules-lawyery you'd need to get to have that work.

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldest View Post
    The free inspiration ability is already the weakest of the three, giving you one more use of inspiration is far, far weaker (you can't use the 2/3 cost inspirations, for instance). Compare with the healing ability.
    I wasn't suggesting it to be the best, merely that a cleaner alternative was slightly less potent. You and I disagree on the comparative potency of a highly conditional healing move (healing, reasonably, about 30 HP to a target who must have just been disabled or worse), compared to an always relevant bonus that the poet can always benefit from even in the final round of combat (fully healing all party members after a combat for no resources), or even simple things like always having a +2 Inspire Courage available after a long day (force multipliers can save lives just as assuredly), or a 30' AOE stun. It's a great Poet ability - it's decently powerful, and it's very versatile. I just want it to be as clearly worded as possible.

    Actually, the closest RAW (or at least the SRD) comes to adressing it is by saying you can preform 1 standard, swift, and move actions per round, and no limit on the number of free actions. Per round, not per turn.
    The SRD states:

    A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. However, you can perform only a single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action any time you would normally be allowed to take a free action. Swift actions usually involve spellcasting or the activation of magic items; many characters (especially those who don't cast spells) never have an opportunity to take a swift action.
    Without question, you cannot perform a Swift action outside of your turn. You can take a swift action any time you may take a free action. You cannot take free actions any time except during your own turn, with the sole (and explicit) exception of talking. This is why Immediate actions exist, to take actions out of turn.

    You rolled a 20 and the other guy rolled a 2. The other guy has to be freaking legendary to win that round. Think of all the skill things you can get by putting a little effort in and getting a 20.
    Assume the Sentinel has a one use +20 competence bonus to one attack roll. They roll to intercept an equal level Gladiator. That Gladiator has just been thrown 100'.

    They're in a 20' by 20' room. The Gladiator has now taken 16D6 damage. With no save.

    I can go on, but I feel it to be self-evident that there's something wrong here.



    By RAW, death isn't defined very well.
    This is actually what I was alluding to. By RAW, "Negative Status Effects" isn't defined at all. What about unconsciousness? Pinned? Disabled? Flat Footed? Helpless? Petrified? Energy/Ability Drained? Starvation? Drowning? Unhappy? Wounded? Diseased? Poisoned? Slightly gassy? Missing an arm? Blinded via eye trauma? On fire?

    When a Zealot can instantly cure the cancerous, disease ridden, geas afflicted, god-blighted, quadriplegic king (who, for the sake of argument, is on fire) by staging a demonstration fight with their friend in front of him and popping off a swift action, I hope you're not in disagreement that this needs a little bit of limitation on exactly what entails "a negative status effect".

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Sorry, for some reason I said the healing, I meant the free attacks move. But I do think that the ability should be the same power level as the Engineer's Improvisation ability.

    Fair point on the swift action, didn't know that. Also fair point with the zealot. However, I am still not sure what's going on with the throwing. I'll be figuring that all out now.
    EDIT: The damage does seem high. Perhaps it should be knocked down to 1d6/10 feet or offer a fort save for half. But it's essentially an opposed attack roll. And those should be close to what a level appropriate foe would be using. And I can't think of a way to get a +20 on the opposed roll, since true strike won't (and shouldn't) work. Actually, it's arguable, but I'd say no.
    Last edited by Eldest; 2012-07-31 at 05:02 PM.

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Responses in bold below.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kholai View Post
    Yeah, I pretty much figured multi-classing wasn't the intended use of it (I presume the original thread contained actual statements to that fact), glad you understood where I was coming from.

    The original thread did have the "word of God," so to speak, on the subject. But I wouldn't mind it now, it just takes a bit of work to suss it out. Yes, there will be overpowered combinations, even if "class level" is used uniformly. I'm only one designer, but I have one hell of an editing team - just let me know if you see weird interactions.

    I'd be happy enough if it was specifically zero multi-classing bound into the class features, but a reasonable tradeoff between several lesser archetype bonuses and a single greater archetype might not be a bad thing to vaguely shoot for.

    The way it is now you can either have a myriad number of lessers, two moderates, or a single greater. I think that's reasonable, though not all archetype powers are created equal.

    Back to Poet: Glad you removed the level 3 spell slot; having two spell lists to choose from for utility just gave too much potential to the Poet (especially if the Spontaneous equivalent to Pearls of Power are brought into it). Even with the reduced spell slots it's still a seriously decent

    I also really like the new capstone.

    Concord of Sweet Sounds: Does this allow an inspiration without having any inspirations left?
    If so, then the wording might be something along the lines of:

    "As a standard action the Poet may use any inspiration ability they have, including those granted by their archetype. Using an inspiration in this way does not count against their total number of inspirations per day."

    My intention was that it would, yes. I will add the wording.


    Noble: To remedy the dead level 2, what about expanding Impel?

    Level 2: Impel Quick: Target ally within 30' regains use of their swift action, if they had used it. A Noble may use Impel a number of times per day equal to half their class level plus their Charisma modifier.

    Level 4: Impel Attack: Target ally within 30' may make an immediate attack against any enemy they threaten.

    Level 6: Great Impel: Target ally within 30' may take a full round worth of actions etc. Using this ability consumes 2 Impel uses/day.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kholai View Post
    Eldest: Note that by the literal text, they may use their ability without it being deducted from their daily limit. This does not dispense the ability to use it if they would otherwise not be able to by not having any remaining inspirations left, or by only having one daily use left for two-inspiration-use abilities.

    As another viable alternative, they may simply regain one of their expended uses of inspiration for the day as a swift action; this is almost the same thing, except not quite so potent.


    Brawler: Faster Than the Naked Eye: To amend the wording slightly, what about:
    The Brawler may make a full attack as a standard action or as part of a charge. If they make a full attack action in this way they may make one additional attack as part of their full attack at their highest Base Attack Bonus. All attacks made in this full attack action must be made using the Brawler's unarmed strike or natural attacks.

    In this way, if the brawler is "armed" by holding a salad fork in one hand, or wearing a spiked bracer, they can still flurry using only unarmed attacks.

    Will fix.

    Brawler > Martial Artist: I could be wrong here, but seeing as you only get one immediate or swift action per round, isn't restricting stance switching to once per round redundant?

    Yes. True. Fixed.

    Gladiator > Should Weapon of Choice require them to practice for five minutes with the new weapon in question? It seems odd that theoretically the gladiator could theoretically declare a particular farmer's Scythe as their WoC.

    Secondly, it should probably be restricted to a weapon they are proficient with, at least thematically.

    Reasonable requests. Added.

    Does "attack" include anything with an attack roll?

    Brute > "By wearing medium armour", perhaps? I know it's petty, but I have the grim vision of a player insisting that he can indeed carry around seventy-nine Breastplates without encumbrance because they're medium armour...

    Fixed.

    Man at Arms > No action is assigned to Weapon of Choice in the first place, and I'd again suggest possibly restricting it to any weapon which the Man at Arms is holding.

    Fixed.

    Pit Fighter > This archetype may be a little extreme in all honestly. Automatic spell loss combined with being almost literally impossible to escape makes this instant and irrevocable death to casters.

    With a +9 to hit before Strength (Weapon of choice + BAB), the chance of a 16 Strength Pit Fighter with Weapon Focus hitting an unarmoured, Dex 16 mage is about 95%, for an average damage of 12 damage before power attack. At a D6 HD, your average mage is going to have ~31 HP. Power Attacking for an extra 20 damage is still a 50% chance to hit.

    Whilst yes, I know and appreciate that mages are supposed to be squishy, but this can be done at reach, and it absolutely, utterly shuts down another class in a way that they have no means of dealing with (there's not much quicken in E6 is there?). That's not really fun design. Can an equal levelled mage survive a situation where a Pit Fighter ends up in melee range with them?

    Second would be the fact they move like a cheetah on crack.

    A level 6 Pit Fighter with a Spiked Chain may make make an attack of opportunity if anything within 10' moves, casts, draws, or 5' steps (or anything else, but you get the idea).

    They may now also take a 10' step as per the Fancy Footwork ability, potentially leaving them 5' closer to the target ten feet away who took a 5' step away from them.

    They can do this every time they "may make" an attack of opportunity (which is not the same thing as hitting with, or even "refraining from", an attack of opportunity). Imagine a line of goblins around the world all drawing their swords split seconds after one another. The Pit Fighter has now 10' stepped his way across thousands of miles.

    Incidentally, the way the major archetype power is worded, it doesn't actually use up an AoO to make a Full Attack. Possibly this should be something along the lines of: "Any time the Pit Fighter makes an attack of opportunity they may make a full attack rather than a single attack."

    Maybe limit their 5' steps to one extra one per round, stop it from being Fancy Footworkable, or possibly tie it to actually taking the AoO. Since their AoO-step also means that nobody wielding a reach weapon that also can't be used in melee can make a full attack against them.

    For the mageslayer aspect, I'd suggest Concentration checks to engage in Defensive Casting automatically fail, and there's a -4 penalty against concentration checks about losing the spell to damage dealt by the Pit Fighter. This means that a Strength 4 pixie with a rapier can't auto-disrupt the mage with a 1-damage love-tap.

    Very good points. I've changed the Lesser Archetype ability to hinge on "successfully connect[ing]" with an attack of opportunity, so there's an inherent limit of either one or Dex modifier (in the case of Combat Reflexes), and removed the "threatens even during a 5' step" (mainly because it made it impossible for anyone to approach a pit fighter, especially one with a reach weapon). Moderate changed to give a -4 penalty to casting defensively or Concentration check to avoid losing a spell. Greater poached your wording. Hopefully that tones it down somewhat, while still maintaining its role as "dirty anti-mage fighter".

    Vindicator: Lesser Archetype is a little confusingly worded, it may be an idea to lift it straight from the Ranger: At 5th level the Vindicator may select an additional favored enemy. In addition, the bonus against any one favored enemy (including the one just selected, if so desired) increases by 2.

    The vindicator is on the chopping block. It's a lot of bookkeeping for little gain. I don't like favored enemy-style abilities very much (they're overly specific and do very little outside of a few numeric bonuses), so I'm hoping to replace it.

    Greater: Again I'd suggest a 5 minute workout or something to reselect a favoured enemy, or otherwise indicating when a new enemy can be selected each 24 hours, and how long it takes.

    See above.

    Hunter: Completely optional here, but swapping Trapper and Deadly Aim around might be a smoother progression (PA at level 1 is a little mediocre anyway)

    I'll consider it. I'd like the hunter's initial ability to support their combat style (i.e., shooting stuff). But it does prevent Hunter 1 from being a hell of a dip.

    Peltast: Suggested slight rewording of the Major Archetype:
    The Peltast may make a full attack as a standard action on any round where they have moved at least 10'. All attacks made in this full attack action must be made using thrown weapons with which the Peltast is proficient.

    Fixed. Peltast in general reworked a bit.

    Sentinel: Possible rewording of Interception: Once per round as an immediate action the Sentinel may attempt to intercept a melee attack targeted at any ally within 10' by making an opposed melee attack roll against the total result of the attack he wishes to intercept. If successful, the attack is instead directed towards the sentinel, and he may use his armour class to defend against it as if he were the original target.

    Level 4 rework: A Sentinel may take one additional Immediate action per turn, so long as that immediate action is used to Intercept a blow.

    By RAW, a Free action cannot be performed outside of your turn except for speaking.

    Interception is going to be completely overhauled. It's an awkward mechanic in general.

    Juggernaut: Major Archetype power - It may be worth clarifying that the Juggernaut is still subject to the attack normally. I don't like automatic "no save just suck" abilities, so if a balance check or reflex save or something were required to knock them prone that would be a lot better to me; it makes little thematic sense that a nimble Rogue is easier to knock over than a Fighter, who is easier to knock over than.... a Fighter that has Weapon Focus, or that waiting until their second iterative attack is basically a +5 bonus to Juggs on the check to auto-bulltrip them.

    Also this sort of ability that triggers on interception makes it worth specifying on interception that they cannot intercept blows targeted at themselves (otherwise they may count as their own ally for the free bulltrip).

    In fact, considering the logical extent of this ability, a Juggernaut who rolls a 20 (say 30, with 16 Str, Weapon Focus and 6 BAB), against a Tyrannosaurus that rolled a 2 (22), has just knocked a tyrannosaurus back eight feet and knocked them onto their back.

    Cool? Hell yes. Little extreme though? What about a free bullrush attempt with a bonus pushback equal to half the difference if they succeed?

    Landsknecht: When using Interception, if a landsknecht's opposing attack roll succeeds, the landsknecht may make one free melee attack at his highest base attack bonus as a free action.

    Against the target who made the attack they were intercepting... right?

    Praetorian: I'd seriously suggest capping the bonus by class level or +5. Having five pet parrots who are your allies at level 1? Pretty crazy go nuts.

    I'll just say this for the sentinel: he is about to undergo a serious face lift.

    Zealot: Raise the Banners: Considering the Poet can basically get a free inspiration for ~5 rounds once per encounter, perhaps this should be a number of rounds equal to half their charisma modifier or something?

    Will consider.

    Rally the Troops: Death is arguably a negative status by RAW.

    Will clarify this, choosing specific statuses. Iron Heart Surge all over again.

    All the auras need to cover "positive Charisma bonus (to a minimum of 1)" or something similar, and smiting needs to include the "bonus (if any)" clause to Smite instead of modifier.

    Okay.

    How does the Templar's Aura interact with Raise the Banners?

    I do not know.

    Green Mage: I assume it's intentional that Green Mages are proficient with Light Armour, but still suffer ASF in it?

    From the proficiencies section of the green mage: "He does not suffer from arcane failure while in light armor"
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldest View Post
    The free inspiration ability is already the weakest of the three, giving you one more use of inspiration is far, far weaker (you can't use the 2/3 cost inspirations, for instance). Compare with the healing ability.



    Actually, the closest RAW (or at least the SRD) comes to adressing it is by saying you can preform 1 standard, swift, and move actions per round, and no limit on the number of free actions. Per round, not per turn.

    I was operating under this assumption for a long time, too, but it is not technically correct. As Kholai quotes below, you can't take free actions (other than speaking) when it's not your turn.

    You rolled a 20 and the other guy rolled a 2. The other guy has to be freaking legendary to win that round. Think of all the skill things you can get by putting a little effort in and getting a 20.

    While I agree with you that this should be a pretty epic win/fail, Kholai is right that it is a bit extreme for E6.

    By RAW, death isn't defined very well. The only negative part is that you can't receive healing. Nothing preventing you from taking any action. And you can't be damaged any further, because your Con is at 0, which means you are dead, which means your health is permanently at -10. If you say dead people can't take actions, you are moving into (incredibly well supported and widely held as valid) RAI. So death is, by RAW, not negative because it is a net gain in power for the player. And if you try that with your DM, you will get hit with books.
    So go ahead and state "except for death", but be aware of how rules-lawyery you'd need to get to have that work.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kholai View Post
    I wasn't suggesting it to be the best, merely that a cleaner alternative was slightly less potent. You and I disagree on the comparative potency of a highly conditional healing move (healing, reasonably, about 30 HP to a target who must have just been disabled or worse), compared to an always relevant bonus that the poet can always benefit from even in the final round of combat (fully healing all party members after a combat for no resources), or even simple things like always having a +2 Inspire Courage available after a long day (force multipliers can save lives just as assuredly), or a 30' AOE stun. It's a great Poet ability - it's decently powerful, and it's very versatile. I just want it to be as clearly worded as possible.

    The SRD states:

    Without question, you cannot perform a Swift action outside of your turn. You can take a swift action any time you may take a free action. You cannot take free actions any time except during your own turn, with the sole (and explicit) exception of talking. This is why Immediate actions exist, to take actions out of turn.

    This problem was brought up in the last thread. I have not fixed it yet, because Interception will look quite different soon, but I am aware that free actions may not technically be performed on other turns.

    Assume the Sentinel has a one use +20 competence bonus to one attack roll. They roll to intercept an equal level Gladiator. That Gladiator has just been thrown 100'.

    They're in a 20' by 20' room. The Gladiator has now taken 16D6 damage. With no save.

    I can go on, but I feel it to be self-evident that there's something wrong here.

    Fair point. I'll reexamine.

    This is actually what I was alluding to. By RAW, "Negative Status Effects" isn't defined at all. What about unconsciousness? Pinned? Disabled? Flat Footed? Helpless? Petrified? Energy/Ability Drained? Starvation? Drowning? Unhappy? Wounded? Diseased? Poisoned? Slightly gassy? Missing an arm? Blinded via eye trauma? On fire?

    When a Zealot can instantly cure the cancerous, disease ridden, geas afflicted, god-blighted, quadriplegic king (who, for the sake of argument, is on fire) by staging a demonstration fight with their friend in front of him and popping off a swift action, I hope you're not in disagreement that this needs a little bit of limitation on exactly what entails "a negative status effect".

    I'll reexamine the "negative status effect" thing, because yeah, that one doesn't specify. Others do. Originally it was truncated for space. Now I have space. You see where I'm going with this?

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnorman View Post
    I'll reexamine the "negative status effect" thing, because yeah, that one doesn't specify. Others do. Originally it was truncated for space. Now I have space. You see where I'm going with this?
    Hm... nope. No idea.
    Incidentally, are there many giants in the MM that have a CR of three or under? From the minion ability of the Tyrant. Also, you might want to give the henchmen some sort of scaling.

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldest View Post
    Hm... nope. No idea.
    Incidentally, are there many giants in the MM that have a CR of three or under? From the minion ability of the Tyrant. Also, you might want to give the henchmen some sort of scaling.
    Provided that that first bit wasn't sarcastic, it means I am going to spell out explicitly exactly what negative statuses the zealot can remove.

    Giants: Just the ogre, I think. I am considering removing that, because unlimited ogre minions (even with severely reduced hit points) is a bit much.

    As for the scaling, I could see the Greater archetype power giving their henchmen an additional level (to a total of 3). A cohort could be up to level 4, but using Leadership as a baseline is probably a bad idea.

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Eldest: Yeah, the free attacks one is pretty great, especially with the right team.
    This reminds me though - I assume "Let Slip" an immediate action? It's inferred from "immediately", but not stated.

    Concerning the Noble > Tyrant I took a closer look and seriously love the concept, but I'm concerned about:
    First and simply: Minion numbers need to be capped by Tyrant level; even five Kobolds are epic.

    Secondly...
    The potential to summon five Centaurs with longbows. A whole party has infinite, expendable mounts... With longbows. Even at 1 HP uncatchable horse archers are a terrifying prospect, especially with 19 AC from my Major Archetype Charisma bonus.
    Five Dopplegangers. I've now won the social game forever.
    These Dopplegangers Change Shape to Small to occupy squares next to me at all times. They use "Aid Another" to grant me +10 to Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Intimidate, Listen, Sense Motive, and Spot. Nobles can take ten on a few of those right?
    If needed, I switch for five Derros, for Aid Another for Hiding and Moving Silently, or a few Locathah to "Aid Another" (aka "carry") me whenever there's a risk I get my feet wet.
    If there's a chance I need to get my hands dirty, five Sahuagins can Aid me in Handle Animal, Profession (hunter), Ride and Survival checks, or five Dwarves to help me with Appraise, Craft (blacksmithing), and Craft (stonemasonry) checks.

    I have a free-floating +10 bonus to most skills (and a 50/50 chance for any skill that can be used untrained out of combat). I have five attacks at +5 to hit, or five Aid Anothers to give up to a +10 attack bonus I can mete out in +2s at a time.

    And thanks to an infinite supply of fodder minions, I even have "trapfinding", and Create Food is totally on my spell list.

    Why would I ever want a henchman? I can't begin to express what a downgrade that would be from the ultimate cosmic power of being a Tyrant, just spam Halflings at problems until they go away.

    So.... Yeah, there probably should be a real, tangible cost to calling up minions, HP and combat are by far the least devastating uses here.


    On scaling Henchmen: What about something like Animal Companion scaling? I can totally see a retooled version of it fitting a hench.

    'S late, so I'll respond to everything else later.

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    5 Centaurs: You must be level 6 to pull these out. By that level, you can afford to buy some mounts and bows. Not seeing the issue.

    5 Dopplegangers: You are surrounded by 5 lackies. At level 6, you can get a +10 if you dedicate yourself to social for a bit. And the class is supposed to rock at social. Not seeing the issue, beyond diplomacy (which is borked already).

    5 Derros: level 6 again.

    Locathahs: Level one, but congrats, you don't have to work at swiming!

    Now, there are two factors you're forgetting: you need to speak their language to give them complex orders, and this from the SRD:

    You can help another character achieve success on his or her skill check by making the same kind of skill check in a cooperative effort. If you roll a 10 or higher on your check, the character you are helping gets a +2 bonus to his or her check, as per the rule for favorable conditions. (You canít take 10 on a skill check to aid another.) In many cases, a characterís help wonít be beneficial, or only a limited number of characters can help at once.
    Which comes out to "DM, if parties start abusing this, give them issues." And the minions in this are going to be having the same issues as minions in 4e; they die really, really fast. Those centaurs you mentioned? 19 AC when you are level 6. They going down.

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Except minions in 4e are supposed to work that way. That's not a bug, it's a feature.

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    I know that, and the same feature is meant for these minions. I think he even mentioned that he was basing the idea off of 4e's minions somewhat. But this is in response to Kholai stating that 19 AC centaurs would be really strong.

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    I can see some valid points in this, and have responded accordingly:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kholai View Post
    Eldest: Yeah, the free attacks one is pretty great, especially with the right team.
    This reminds me though - I assume "Let Slip" an immediate action? It's inferred from "immediately", but not stated.

    Yes. I shall make it explicit.

    Concerning the Noble > Tyrant I took a closer look and seriously love the concept, but I'm concerned about:
    First and simply: Minion numbers need to be capped by Tyrant level; even five Kobolds are epic.

    This is a reasonable change, and I have made it.

    Secondly...
    The potential to summon five Centaurs with longbows. A whole party has infinite, expendable mounts... With longbows. Even at 1 HP uncatchable horse archers are a terrifying prospect, especially with 19 AC from my Major Archetype Charisma bonus.
    Five Dopplegangers. I've now won the social game forever.
    These Dopplegangers Change Shape to Small to occupy squares next to me at all times. They use "Aid Another" to grant me +10 to Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Intimidate, Listen, Sense Motive, and Spot. Nobles can take ten on a few of those right?
    If needed, I switch for five Derros, for Aid Another for Hiding and Moving Silently, or a few Locathah to "Aid Another" (aka "carry") me whenever there's a risk I get my feet wet.
    If there's a chance I need to get my hands dirty, five Sahuagins can Aid me in Handle Animal, Profession (hunter), Ride and Survival checks, or five Dwarves to help me with Appraise, Craft (blacksmithing), and Craft (stonemasonry) checks.

    Giants and monstrous humanoids have been removed as potential minions. Now, your best bets are likely gnolls or bugbears, as I originally intended waaaay back when I first designed the class.

    I have a free-floating +10 bonus to most skills (and a 50/50 chance for any skill that can be used untrained out of combat). I have five attacks at +5 to hit, or five Aid Anothers to give up to a +10 attack bonus I can mete out in +2s at a time.

    The bonus for aiding another a minion can offer has been cut down to +1. Yes, five of them could still give a hefty bonus, but that A:) requires you to spend five round summoning them B.) requires that they do nothing but aid you and C.) requires them to stay alive until that time. If I have five leering orcs surrounding me, brandishing their greataxes at the lowly shopkeep, a +5 bonus to Intimidate is not unreasonable.

    And thanks to an infinite supply of fodder minions, I even have "trapfinding", and Create Food is totally on my spell list.

    Working as intended.

    Why would I ever want a henchman? I can't begin to express what a downgrade that would be from the ultimate cosmic power of being a Tyrant, just spam Halflings at problems until they go away.

    I just gave henchmen a bit of a boost (made them a cohort with a level equal to half the tyrant's, technically a downgrade at 3rd level but net neutral or positive from there on). They're more customizable and equippable now - if you want to give your henchmen a magic suit of armor, you may do so now, though they will take it with them if they are dismissed or killed.

    So.... Yeah, there probably should be a real, tangible cost to calling up minions, HP and combat are by far the least devastating uses here.

    It's an opportunity cost more than anything else - the tyrant has very few other class features. "Throw minions at it until it stops being a problem" should be a viable strategy. Hopefully with the changes I've made it should be a little more reasonable, and the abusable parts of it less so.

    On scaling Henchmen: What about something like Animal Companion scaling? I can totally see a retooled version of it fitting a hench.

    'S late, so I'll respond to everything else later.
    Also, I took the idea about expanding Impel and ran with it. Here's the new version of it, now available at level 2:

    Impel: By giving up his own actions for a round, the noble may allow his allies to take additional actions. At first, the noble may only offer his allies swift actions - by forgoing his own swift action, he may select one ally within 30'. That ally may take an additional swift action during its next turn. At 4th level, the noble may forgo his own move action to allow an ally within 30' to take an additional move action on its next turn. At 6th level, the noble may forgo his own standard action to allow an ally within 30' to take an additional standard action on its own turn.

    One archetype will likely have the ability to allow his allies to take those actions immediately, rather than having to wait for their next turn.

    Also, the noble's new 6th level ability:

    Natural Born Leader: Once per encounter, the noble may make use of one of the following abilities:

    Fly, You Fools: As a move action, all allies within 30' of the noble (excluding himself) have their base land speed doubled for one round, and may immediately move up to their newly-modified base speed.

    Supreme Motivation: As a full-round action, the noble allows one ally within 30' (excluding himself) to immediately take a full round's worth of actions.

    The Whites of Their Eyes: As an immediate action, the noble allows all allies within 30' (excluding himself) to make a single melee or ranged attack as an immediate action.

  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Eldest:
    Centaur: Note that even with 1 HP, if a creature does not have a ranged attack option and enough move to catch it, they cannot be killed. The aforementioned Tyrannosaurus is harmless - it simply cannot catch a Centaur, who also do not have a limited number of arrows. Whilst mounted (which, unlike regular mounts, can happen in any area of dungeon that he has enough space within), the Tyrant may move and take full round actions at the same time.

    Doppleganger: Change Shape. Your lackeys look like anyone you could ever need. I cannot explain just how incredibly potent this is for how many different situations. Combat is not the only, or even the most important aspect of a game.

    Forgetting Speak Language? No, an Elf can communicate with Centaurs and Dopplegangers, Dwarves, Sahuagins, Merfolk, and I'm pretty sure can spent 1 Skill Point to speak whatever language the Derro do. If intelligence bonus languages don't cover those already.

    Relying on arbitrary DM fiat is not a solution:
    -Of course your buddies can't swarm all over your enemy, distracting them for your easy convenience.
    -Of course you can't have your five Dopplegangers who look like city officials help in your bluff roll that you're appointed by the city.
    - Of course you can't have them use their detect thoughts ability on multiple targets to give you a perfect insight into how crowd pleasing your diplomatic efforts are.
    - Of course those dwarves can't confer about how valuable something is, or be little worker slaves whilst you craft something.
    - Of course five merpeople can't just carry you over the water whilst you take a nap.

    I'm totally happy with the change halving the bonus and removing Doppleganger abuse.

    How long do minion corpses stick around by the way? I assume they can't be raised as skeletons, turned into mobile fortresses of seppuku minions or otherwise stacked to provide a handy set of stairs over the castle walls?

    Impel change looks neat, and very, very powerful. Impel Swift/Move/Standard: Target useful character can now take an additional turn on their own initiative.

    This may need restricting to one use of Impel / Turn? Otherwise the only difference between this and the capstone at level 6 is whether they take that full round action now, or at their own initiative.

  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Technically, I suppose minion corpses should poof away once killed, just for sanity's sake.

    And I will include a restriction in Impel that "only one type of action may be forgone in any given round."

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    Engineer: Perhaps they should have "Inventors are automatically proficient with all their inventions"? This would be a lot more concise than having multiple "ignores non-proficiency" clauses.

    Does the Engineer require access to their 15 GP "portable MacGuyver Satchel" and their 5 GP "Invention Component Pouch", or can a naked Engineer in an empty room fashion a Piston Hammer, a Mecha Suit and a Muscle Builder from, presumably, their own body hair, then batter their way out of the room?

    Cannoneer: Aimed shot should thematically possibly be restricted to firearms and/or crossbows. I assume that the reading automatically discounts the Blunderbuss since it mentions an attack roll.

    Note that the literal reading of the "cannot move" could be argued to render the target helpless.

    I keep complaining (and apologise if I'm being a pest about it), but this sort of "no-save-just-suck" ability is very hard to balance.

    Level 1 - Legs: Target low-AC/high DR enemy cannot enter melee or move because they just took 1D6 fire damage. No save.
    Level 3 - Arms: Target Gladiator just dropped their Weapon of Choice. No save.
    Level 6 - Two Cannoneer can now kill any Dragon. Seriously. They can't move (including wings), so the quick-drawing Cannoneer with rapid reload can take their time with their touch-attack revolvers which ignore DR. A Wyrm's Touch AC is 7 or worse. With 20 Dex, Weapon Focus: Hand Crossbow. (a +2 one is probably reasonable for E6), you have +12 to hit. A -6 means you only miss on a 1.

    And as a bonus, Dragon's manoeuvrability is Clumsy. If they stop moving? They crash.

    Feel free to substitute any other character with a mediocre touch AC and huge standard AC (Sentinels?) for this.

    What about Fortitude Save for half movement speed/Free Disarm Attempt + Fortitude save/Fortitude Save on this?

    Innovator: Nonsensical is a bit of a woolly term. Perhaps this could be restricted solely to non-equipment, or only grenade-like weapons or something similar. A Synaptic Hypnotic Accelerator Fog fascinates a cloud of creatures within 20', gives them all a standard action to be fascinated with, then fatigues them for the rest of the combat. Is this nonsensical?

    Sawbones: Heal Modifier is a term I've not come across before, but if this means what I think it means then a 12 Wisdom Sawbones is dealing the same average bonus damage per hit as a level 3 Rogue. If heal bonuses from Masterwork Items, competence bonuses, skill focus, and the like kick in however, hanging around a Poet means these guys get an extra +3 or so, which is basically a free level 5 Rogue's worth of Sneak Attack every attack.

    Is it possibly worth capping it to Sawbones level, and maybe Light/One Handed weapons or something? Maybe "ranks" rather than "modifier"? Right now it's not game-breaking, but it is a little front-loaded and open ended.

    Currently, a 16 Wisdom 1 Sawbones/5 Brawler (cross class the Heal, no Skill Focus/Self-Sufficient feats) punches three times at 3 BAB each with TWF'd Fist + Club (Because hey, Martial Artist armed Standard Action Flurry), deals +6 damage per hit that connects. Plus he compensates a little for his lost 1/encounter powers with four Inventions for utility.

    Major Archetype: I'd suggest "This ability may only be used on a particular subject once every 24 hours."

    If it may only function once, that means you can basically keep trying for five rounds.

  15. - Top - End - #75
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    This is all very valuable feedback. Thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kholai View Post
    Engineer: Perhaps they should have "Inventors are automatically proficient with all their inventions"? This would be a lot more concise than having multiple "ignores non-proficiency" clauses.

    A more economical way of expressing it, yes.

    Does the Engineer require access to their 15 GP "portable MacGuyver Satchel" and their 5 GP "Invention Component Pouch", or can a naked Engineer in an empty room fashion a Piston Hammer, a Mecha Suit and a Muscle Builder from, presumably, their own body hair, then batter their way out of the room?

    Absolutely yes but seriously I should probably have some kind of hammerspace receptacle, yeah...

    Cannoneer: Aimed shot should thematically possibly be restricted to firearms and/or crossbows. I assume that the reading automatically discounts the Blunderbuss since it mentions an attack roll.

    Note that the literal reading of the "cannot move" could be argued to render the target helpless.

    Should probably be changed to "have their base land speed reduced by half" then.

    I keep complaining (and apologise if I'm being a pest about it), but this sort of "no-save-just-suck" ability is very hard to balance.

    The rationalization for the no-save-just-suck abilities is that they usually require a successful attack roll, but I see your point.

    Level 1 - Legs: Target low-AC/high DR enemy cannot enter melee or move because they just took 1D6 fire damage. No save.
    Level 3 - Arms: Target Gladiator just dropped their Weapon of Choice. No save.
    Level 6 - Two Cannoneer can now kill any Dragon. Seriously. They can't move (including wings), so the quick-drawing Cannoneer with rapid reload can take their time with their touch-attack revolvers which ignore DR. A Wyrm's Touch AC is 7 or worse. With 20 Dex, Weapon Focus: Hand Crossbow. (a +2 one is probably reasonable for E6), you have +12 to hit. A -6 means you only miss on a 1.

    And as a bonus, Dragon's manoeuvrability is Clumsy. If they stop moving? They crash.

    Feel free to substitute any other character with a mediocre touch AC and huge standard AC (Sentinels?) for this.

    What about Fortitude Save for half movement speed/Free Disarm Attempt + Fortitude save/Fortitude Save on this?

    I'll reevaluate the aimed shots for balance's sake, sure.

    Innovator: Nonsensical is a bit of a woolly term. Perhaps this could be restricted solely to non-equipment, or only grenade-like weapons or something similar. A Synaptic Hypnotic Accelerator Fog fascinates a cloud of creatures within 20', gives them all a standard action to be fascinated with, then fatigues them for the rest of the combat. Is this nonsensical?

    I don't know about nonsensical, but it is pretty funny, and I sometimes leave weird class abilities in because they're funny (at least, until the serious designer part of me gets fed up and changes it). The innovator's a hard nut to crack, honestly, and I toy with axing him for sanity's sake almost every time I examine the engineer. I'll find a way to make it work, but it may take me a while.

    Sawbones: Heal Modifier is a term I've not come across before, but if this means what I think it means then a 12 Wisdom Sawbones is dealing the same average bonus damage per hit as a level 3 Rogue. If heal bonuses from Masterwork Items, competence bonuses, skill focus, and the like kick in however, hanging around a Poet means these guys get an extra +3 or so, which is basically a free level 5 Rogue's worth of Sneak Attack every attack.

    Is it possibly worth capping it to Sawbones level, and maybe Light/One Handed weapons or something? Maybe "ranks" rather than "modifier"? Right now it's not game-breaking, but it is a little front-loaded and open ended.

    Ranks is likely more reasonable. There's an automatic hard cap in there, and it scales pretty decently.

    Currently, a 16 Wisdom 1 Sawbones/5 Brawler (cross class the Heal, no Skill Focus/Self-Sufficient feats) punches three times at 3 BAB each with TWF'd Fist + Club (Because hey, Martial Artist armed Standard Action Flurry), deals +6 damage per hit that connects. Plus he compensates a little for his lost 1/encounter powers with four Inventions for utility.

    A kung fu genius / mad scientist / medical doctor? Sounds like a great character to me. He specializes in pressure points. The bad kind.

    Major Archetype: I'd suggest "This ability may only be used on a particular subject once every 24 hours."

    If it may only function once, that means you can basically keep trying for five rounds.

    EDIT: This clause already exists in that ability.

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    I don't agree with the sawbones nerf. Yea, they can get a large bonus, but it's to MELEE attacks, and the engineer is not really set up to be front line fighter - it has med BAB and a d8 HD, meaning it's no more a front line fighter than a rogue. If a player boosts their heal, they're putting most of their resources into it, they SHOULD get a better bonus. If you spend you feat on skill focus heal, you deserve +1.5 damage, and I'm still not sure the feat would be a good decision. Not to mention that the sawbones who were boosting their WIS probably weren't maxing than STR (or, if they boost both for the massive damage, they'll have lower DEX and CON, making staying on the front lines even harder)
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnorman View Post
    This is all very valuable feedback. Thank you.
    Glad to be of help on such a great project.

    The rationalization for the no-save-just-suck abilities is that they usually require a successful attack roll, but I see your point.
    I think the closest parallel here for "things you can do all day" would be the Warlock. Making it a non-touch attack, or a melee attack etc might drop it down slightly in potency, and it's a good benchmark for potency.

    There's a vague list here for reference:

    http://dnd.kermodebear.org/InvocationLists

    Beshadowed Blast: Lesser, 4th, Blast essence; Living creature struck makes Fort or blinded for 1 round.

    Lesser is, at least in this E6 system, a singular, capstone ability.

    Whilst this may correctly indicate that the E6 Warlock is dramatically subpar at the moment, if you want Lesser to be something you only get as a capstone in E6, then this indicates that a decent touch/+save is pretty decent.

    Meanwhile, if it's something you can do ~ 3 times a day, then the comparison should be with a level 3 spell.

    A kung fu genius / mad scientist / medical doctor? Sounds like a great character to me. He specializes in pressure points. The bad kind.
    This is one of the reasons I like multiclassing. In hindsight, I think Ranks alone without it being based on level is fine - most classes with multiple hits to get full use out of it are at double cost / rank for it anyway.


    Inventions:

    Knock Out Gas: If this is a "toxic", rather than "enchantment" ability, should this be a Fortitude save and have no effect on non-living creatures?

    Unstable Elixir: Untyped damage?

    Corrosive Acid (and several others): Splash Weapons typically have a Direct Damage component and an indirect component, see Alchemist's Fire, for example.

    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/...alchemistsFire /
    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/spe...owSplashWeapon

    As such, you may wish to account for this with these types of invention.

    Clockwork Decoy: Decay < typo. What size is the decoy? Stats? AC?

    I'm thinking a construct version of the rat, which moves 20' in a random direction each turn, without being specifically commanded to do anything (it's a wind-up mouse).

    Automated Laboratory: This brings up an interesting question. How heavy are inventions?

    Foothold Trap: At level 3, you have basically created this: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glyphOfWarding.htm. With a caster level of 10.
    Maybe it should be 1D6 damage per Engineer level, and again, amend the immobilisation (if it's a bear trap, maybe they can open it, if it's a foot-spiker, maybe something based on Caltrops?).

    Trapspringer: With this, a level 1 Engineer has subsumed the role of a level 10 Rogue.

    Portable Locksmith: At level 3, the Engineer has a lesser "Knock" three times per day. He's sort of making a Rogue feel sad here.

    The Engineer is a Trapfinder with Open Lock and Disable Device. Perhaps these should give competence bonuses to these abilities, rather than a 3x per day (more than usually is required) "disable whatever"?

    Steam Powered Gyroscope: Might this be better named Gyrocopter? I could be wrong but I didn't think Gyroscope was a flying device.

    Crackerjack Caltrops: Needs rewording; as written, they may be spread indefinitely until they affect five creatures.

    Might I suggest these use the actual caltrops rules, but with perhaps a bonus to the attack roll? That would actually be a power up to compensate for having a limited number of them.

    Flash Grenade: Possibly this should be done in a similar way to the Thunderstone, but with an additional DC to avoid blindness? Automatic blindness, even for a round, is the domain of a spell like Sunburst.

    Homing Rocket: So it's basically Magic Missile, cast at caster level 7 without a Shield spell equivalent or the ability to select a target? Perhaps this should deal 1D6 damage + 1D6 for every two Inventor levels?

    Pocket Bombard: This is another automatic no-save-just-suck, but it's also competing favourably with Orb of X, which are level 4 spells in terms of damage output and effect.

    Shrapnel Mine: As written, an Inventor can lay a Shrapnel Mine and come back days later. Again, this is a glyph of warding with bonus abilities and a much higher average damage.

    Time Bomb: Caster level 8 Fireball, with extra features.


    Overall, I'm getting a very, very powerful vibe from the engineer. I'll probably have a closer look and see what a level 6 Engineer can feasibly pull off alongside another character.



    Table's out of date on the Poet; level 6 should be Full of Sounds and Fury.

    For the Noble, would an initiator Archetype "War Marshal", with the focus on White Raven (and any other Leadership-brand manoeuvres, I don't keep up on homebrew Bo9S styles to keep track) be an idea? It's definitely within their remit as the Boss-man.

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    I should make a few ride based classes.
    Hmmmm.

    Sentinel Chargemonkey-Wrecking ball,
    Hunter Wild Hunt, WE RIDE kinda thing,
    Scoundrel trickrider with lots of cowboy themed stuff for when they are not riding.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForzaFiori View Post
    I don't agree with the sawbones nerf. Yea, they can get a large bonus, but it's to MELEE attacks, and the engineer is not really set up to be front line fighter - it has med BAB and a d8 HD, meaning it's no more a front line fighter than a rogue. If a player boosts their heal, they're putting most of their resources into it, they SHOULD get a better bonus. If you spend you feat on skill focus heal, you deserve +1.5 damage, and I'm still not sure the feat would be a good decision. Not to mention that the sawbones who were boosting their WIS probably weren't maxing than STR (or, if they boost both for the massive damage, they'll have lower DEX and CON, making staying on the front lines even harder)
    The comparison being made is to the rogue, not a front-liner. The rogue does an extra 1d6 damage at 1st level. The sawbones, assuming a not-very-optimized WIS of 12 and Skill Focus (heal), gets an extra 4 damage with each attack, more than a rogue's average with little investment (Skill Focus does for a sawbones what Craven does for a rogue, with no drawback). Add in a 50 gp "Masterwork Scalpel" and it's 5. It's not about it being generally too powerful, it's about being noticeably more powerful than its closest comparison.

    However, I do agree with you that if a player invests heavily into this aspect of their character, they should see dividends. Instead of ranks, what if it was limited to a +2 bonus per class level? That's about the same pace as the average sneak attack level, and it still allows a sawbones to improve it with feats, items, et cetera. Getting a Heal modifier of 24 is difficult but not impossible in E6.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kholai View Post
    Glad to be of help on such a great project.



    I think the closest parallel here for "things you can do all day" would be the Warlock. Making it a non-touch attack, or a melee attack etc might drop it down slightly in potency, and it's a good benchmark for potency.

    There's a vague list here for reference:

    http://dnd.kermodebear.org/InvocationLists

    Beshadowed Blast: Lesser, 4th, Blast essence; Living creature struck makes Fort or blinded for 1 round.

    Lesser is, at least in this E6 system, a singular, capstone ability.

    Whilst this may correctly indicate that the E6 Warlock is dramatically subpar at the moment, if you want Lesser to be something you only get as a capstone in E6, then this indicates that a decent touch/+save is pretty decent.

    Meanwhile, if it's something you can do ~ 3 times a day, then the comparison should be with a level 3 spell.

    Keep in mind that my breaking point for balance is above the warlock. I aim for mid to high tier 3, while the warlock is considered tier 4. Being "more powerful than the warlock" is a good thing.

    This is one of the reasons I like multiclassing. In hindsight, I think Ranks alone without it being based on level is fine - most classes with multiple hits to get full use out of it are at double cost / rank for it anyway.

    Max bonus of +2 per class level is my preferred method, after thinking about it. This keeps it from being front-loaded (same bonus at level 1), but also allows a dedicated sawbones to turn it into a signature ability. If you're willing to optimize heal, you should reap the benefits. It does keep it from being a phenomenal dip for a combat class, but a +2 bonus to damage rolls and a few cool inventions may be worth it for some.

    Inventions:

    Knock Out Gas: If this is a "toxic", rather than "enchantment" ability, should this be a Fortitude save and have no effect on non-living creatures?

    I want it to remain a Will save (think of it like Sleep), but I'm willing to include a clause that creatures that do not breathe are immune.

    Unstable Elixir: Untyped damage?

    Damn, another one. Should be acid.

    Corrosive Acid (and several others): Splash Weapons typically have a Direct Damage component and an indirect component, see Alchemist's Fire, for example.

    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/...alchemistsFire /
    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/spe...owSplashWeapon

    As such, you may wish to account for this with these types of invention.

    I'll look into it. It actually may be a good way to tone down some of the more egregious grenades - as I recall, Mangles basically called them "must-haves for every engineer," which means I'm doing something wrong.

    Clockwork Decoy: Decay < typo. What size is the decoy? Stats? AC?

    I'm thinking a construct version of the rat, which moves 20' in a random direction each turn, without being specifically commanded to do anything (it's a wind-up mouse).

    I will add those statistics accordingly.

    Automated Laboratory: This brings up an interesting question. How heavy are inventions?

    They all emit a subtle anti-gravity field that exactly negates their weight. That or hammerspace. There's not going to be a real good answer for you on this, because I don't have one. You have to be generous with your suspension of disbelief to accept that the engineer can whip all this convoluted machinery up and carry it all around in like a backpack or something. Maybe an Engineer's Backpack should be an automatic invention at level one? It stores parts, powers inventions, and acts as a mobile workbench to construct them all.

    Foothold Trap: At level 3, you have basically created this: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glyphOfWarding.htm. With a caster level of 10.
    Maybe it should be 1D6 damage per Engineer level, and again, amend the immobilisation (if it's a bear trap, maybe they can open it, if it's a foot-spiker, maybe something based on Caltrops?).

    I cleaned up the immobilization language (stealing it shamelessly from the Web spell), added a way to get out of it, and reduced the damage somewhat.

    Trapspringer: With this, a level 1 Engineer has subsumed the role of a level 10 Rogue.

    Portable Locksmith: At level 3, the Engineer has a lesser "Knock" three times per day. He's sort of making a Rogue feel sad here.

    The Engineer is a Trapfinder with Open Lock and Disable Device. Perhaps these should give competence bonuses to these abilities, rather than a 3x per day (more than usually is required) "disable whatever"?

    I like the idea of a competence bonus. I'll consider it.

    Steam Powered Gyroscope: Might this be better named Gyrocopter? I could be wrong but I didn't think Gyroscope was a flying device.

    Yes... that would be fine.

    Crackerjack Caltrops: Needs rewording; as written, they may be spread indefinitely until they affect five creatures.

    Might I suggest these use the actual caltrops rules, but with perhaps a bonus to the attack roll? That would actually be a power up to compensate for having a limited number of them.

    I will consider it.

    Flash Grenade: Possibly this should be done in a similar way to the Thunderstone, but with an additional DC to avoid blindness? Automatic blindness, even for a round, is the domain of a spell like Sunburst.

    For a level 2 invention, you're right, it is a bit much. I've removed the dazing, and reduced the blinding.

    Homing Rocket: So it's basically Magic Missile, cast at caster level 7 without a Shield spell equivalent or the ability to select a target? Perhaps this should deal 1D6 damage + 1D6 for every two Inventor levels?

    I've reduced the damage to be a bit more in line with level 3, but did give it the ability to actually home in, ignoring concealment and partial cover.

    Pocket Bombard: This is another automatic no-save-just-suck, but it's also competing favourably with Orb of X, which are level 4 spells in terms of damage output and effect.

    Added a Reflex save. I stand by the damage, though.

    Shrapnel Mine: As written, an Inventor can lay a Shrapnel Mine and come back days later. Again, this is a glyph of warding with bonus abilities and a much higher average damage.

    Glyph of Warding isn't exactly great damage-wise, so I don't consider this too much of a problem. Added a limit to the duration, though.

    Time Bomb: Caster level 8 Fireball, with extra features.

    Fireball is not a very good spell. To me, saying that something is better than Fireball tends to be complimentary. Keep in mind that the engineer's inventions are a bit more powerful than spells because he has commensurately fewer of them, and he can only prepare any particular invention once.

    Overall, I'm getting a very, very powerful vibe from the engineer. I'll probably have a closer look and see what a level 6 Engineer can feasibly pull off alongside another character.

    Though I am reluctant to admit it, I can see some of the engineer inventions being a bit over the top. I will do my best to rectify the most egregious ones, while still maintaining the flavor and power of the class.

    Table's out of date on the Poet; level 6 should be Full of Sounds and Fury.

    Fixed.

    For the Noble, would an initiator Archetype "War Marshal", with the focus on White Raven (and any other Leadership-brand manoeuvres, I don't keep up on homebrew Bo9S styles to keep track) be an idea? It's definitely within their remit as the Boss-man.

    Will consider, though I'm trying to stray away from adding these kinds of archetypes to non-alternate class.
    In addition to the changes described above, I've also altered the Cannoneer's archetype powers (adding saves, removing aiming penalties, restricting ranged touch attack to 1/encounter) and a few other inventions here and there (not much, just some slight changes to damage and duration to a few).

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    if the scoundrel would take the cutthroat archetype and invest the first feat into learning shadow blade he instantly gets dexterity as bonus damage. so he could easiely do more damage then the sawbones.

    the sawbones got a higher MAD if he goes melee and still wants decent dc's, while the scoundrel can be decent with only maxing out dexterity.

    i think as long as the sawbones just gets one archtype power that improves melee it is balanced as it is and it gives cool character options. lowering it would simply make it to an ability usable at the first two levels useless thereafter.

    the engineer got other problems to keep an eye on. but we should keep in mind that there are not really many ability improving feats as for other characters which is making him not really scale up in the epic area.
    Last edited by theDuskling; 2012-08-02 at 06:02 AM.

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by theDuskling View Post
    if the scoundrel would take the cutthroat archetype and invest the first feat into learning shadow blade he instantly gets dexterity as bonus damage. so he could easiely do more damage then the sawbones.
    Sawbones 1 / Scoundrel 5, 10 skill points cross-class. Your suggested combo just instantly got +5 damage to all melee attacks it makes, and some inventions for versatility.

    Alternatively, as mentioned, Brawler 5/Sawbones 1 gets it too, and multiple attacks per round. Quite a few get access to Tiger Claw for free TWF multi-hitting, and yes, that ability is open to all of them. It's basically "give up 1 BAB for +5 damage permanently".

    Heck, it's only two or three feats for any Sawbones to pick up the same advantage.

    I suggest linking it to Archetype advancement:
    Minor Archetype: 1/4 Modified Heal ranks. Maximum of +2 damage per Engineer level.
    Moderate Archetype: 1/2 Modified Heal ranks.
    Major Archetype: Maximum of +4 damage per Engineer level.

    Keep in mind that my breaking point for balance is above the warlock. I aim for mid to high tier 3, while the warlock is considered tier 4. Being "more powerful than the warlock" is a good thing.
    I am aware of, and appreciate this idea, but this is an example of a foundation. You can be consistently above Lesser invocations, but if you're better than Greater invocations, or a Level 3 Manoeuvre, we're pushing the borders on what's E6 appropriate.

    Fireball is not a very good spell. To me, saying that something is better than Fireball tends to be complimentary. Keep in mind that the engineer's inventions are a bit more powerful than spells because he has commensurately fewer of them, and he can only prepare any particular invention once.
    Remember that mages give up hitdie size, only get 2 skill points a level and have typically comparatively modest archetype powers purely because spells are a pretty big deal. If the Engineer or any other class isn't a 2+ Int, D6 HD class and has things as good as spells, or better, then something's wrong.

    As far as Fireball goes however, it's not a "good" spell because damage isn't a good use of a mage's time. In terms of damage it's absolutely dead on with multiple targets, 6D6 damage. Remember that's the same as a mage's hitdie, so you're potentially into instant kill damage against any E6 character who rolled poorly on their HP).

    Incidentally, please note that at level 6 they can use this or any other level three invention five times.

    Invention, Jury Rig, Improvisation x3. You've now done five level 3 "spells" in five turns. You still have five more level 3 inventions unused, they're just not the same as the one you just used five times in a row.


    As a suggested guideline, perhaps level 3 inventions should compare approximately with level 2 spells, rather than level 3 spells.

    With this as your benchmark, the Engineer should compare with the Poet, who gets eight spells per day.

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    My responses are in bold. As always, I appreciate the input and will do my best to address your critique.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kholai View Post
    Sawbones 1 / Scoundrel 5, 10 skill points cross-class. Your suggested combo just instantly got +5 damage to all melee attacks it makes, and some inventions for versatility.

    Alternatively, as mentioned, Brawler 5/Sawbones 1 gets it too, and multiple attacks per round. Quite a few get access to Tiger Claw for free TWF multi-hitting, and yes, that ability is open to all of them. It's basically "give up 1 BAB for +5 damage permanently".

    Heck, it's only two or three feats for any Sawbones to pick up the same advantage.

    I suggest linking it to Archetype advancement:
    Minor Archetype: 1/4 Modified Heal ranks. Maximum of +2 damage per Engineer level.
    Moderate Archetype: 1/2 Modified Heal ranks.
    Major Archetype: Maximum of +4 damage per Engineer level.

    I'm going to stick with max of +2 per class level for now. +4 damage per Engineer level would be a total of +24, a bit much. Also, it'd be pretty dang hard to get a Heal check of 48.

    I am aware of, and appreciate this idea, but this is an example of a foundation. You can be consistently above Lesser invocations, but if you're better than Greater invocations, or a Level 3 Manoeuvre, we're pushing the borders on what's E6 appropriate.

    Okay, now I understand what you're saying here. I've tried to keep most things E6 appropriate, perhaps slightly more powerful in some cases (after all, I gave 4th-level spells to the mage classes, so I set that precedent a long time ago). I'm okay with giving certain abilities that higher-level classes get (like Swift Tracking or Hide in Plain Sight), but usually the ones I offer are not exactly over the top. I'll gladly reconsider any that seem to be too much.

    Remember that mages give up hitdie size, only get 2 skill points a level and have typically comparatively modest archetype powers purely because spells are a pretty big deal. If the Engineer or any other class isn't a 2+ Int, D6 HD class and has things as good as spells, or better, then something's wrong.

    My intention for the engineer was to have a greater day-to-day variety, but be restricted in the kinds of effects they can produce. That's why most of their inventions are damage-dealers, with a few exceptions. One option for reducing the power of the engineer is to have their archetype dictate which disciplines they can use - a sawbones could use chemistry and medicine, but no others, for example.

    As far as Fireball goes however, it's not a "good" spell because damage isn't a good use of a mage's time. In terms of damage it's absolutely dead on with multiple targets, 6D6 damage. Remember that's the same as a mage's hitdie, so you're potentially into instant kill damage against any E6 character who rolled poorly on their HP).

    That would be a pretty rare situation (the mage would have to have invested almost nothing into Constitution, and the rolls needed would be unlikely), but I see your point.

    Incidentally, please note that at level 6 they can use this or any other level three invention five times.

    This I do need to change, as it makes lower-level inventions obsolete in a way I do not want them to be.

    Invention, Jury Rig, Improvisation x3. You've now done five level 3 "spells" in five turns. You still have five more level 3 inventions unused, they're just not the same as the one you just used five times in a row.

    All too true. I think that this is a good argument for reducing the power of Improvisation. Once per encounter would improve their overall endurance, but also prevent them from going nova in this way.

    As a suggested guideline, perhaps level 3 inventions should compare approximately with level 2 spells, rather than level 3 spells.

    That or limit inventions to a per-level system, like spells. A certain number of level 1 inventions, level 2, et cetera. Perhaps like so:

    {table=head]Inventions Per Day
    {table=head]Level|1|2|3

    1st|1|-|-
    2nd|2|-|-
    3rd|3|1|-
    4th|3|2|-
    5th|3|2|1
    6th|3|2|1[/table][/table]

    With this as your benchmark, the Engineer should compare with the Poet, who gets eight spells per day.

    Yes, but the poet gets some pretty decent power from his songs. The engineer pretty much only has inventions.

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Kholai View Post
    Sawbones 1 / Scoundrel 5, 10 skill points cross-class. Your suggested combo just instantly got +5 damage to all melee attacks it makes, and some inventions for versatility.

    Alternatively, as mentioned, Brawler 5/Sawbones 1 gets it too, and multiple attacks per round. Quite a few get access to Tiger Claw for free TWF multi-hitting, and yes, that ability is open to all of them. It's basically "give up 1 BAB for +5 damage permanently".
    Which is a bloody awful trade for an E6 game. You'd never get your second attack per level.

    As far as Fireball goes however, it's not a "good" spell because damage isn't a good use of a mage's time. In terms of damage it's absolutely dead on with multiple targets, 6D6 damage. Remember that's the same as a mage's hitdie, so you're potentially into instant kill damage against any E6 character who rolled poorly on their HP).
    There are many instagib combos in E6. Fireball isn't a good one. Try Sudden Maximize, Sudden Empower Enervation. No save, just die for any of these classes. All for the cost of 2 feats. Or really pair that with any large damage spell. Dominate Person. Save or you're ****ed. The dragon gets unlimited 6d6 attacks in the form as breaths.

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    enervation is pretty much overkill for e6. but fireball can be as well. with spell thesis, fire heritage (the one of the faerŻn books) and energy substitution since spell thesis gets you one free level of metamagic you deal 10 w 6.

    with enough sudden feats and the pyromancer archetype you can get enough damage to kill every e6 char withing 9 m/ 30 feet even if they succeed their saves.

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldest View Post
    Which is a bloody awful trade for an E6 game. You'd never get your second attack per level.
    Initiators trade attacks into single, much better, attacks all the time, is this a downgrade?

    Secondly: You're getting Trapfinding, a Sleep spell, a melee touch at-will (Does Static Trigger, as a melee attack, count for the damage bonus as well?), or a permanent light source, or an invisibility detector, an awesome compass o' glory, or a huge Jump bonus....
    You're trading an attack at a -5 to hit (when you can easily get three anyway without it), for a lot more than free bonus damage.
    I'm totally happy with the +2 damage limit, because that stops it from being *totally* awesome.

    The engineer basically has a combination of permanent class features and/or healing/damaging abilities they can change day by day, even at level 1.


    My intention for the engineer was to have a greater day-to-day variety, but be restricted in the kinds of effects they can produce. That's why most of their inventions are damage-dealers, with a few exceptions. One option for reducing the power of the engineer is to have their archetype dictate which disciplines they can use - a sawbones could use chemistry and medicine, but no others, for example.
    I actually like this a lot, maybe they could have an "inventions known" list and pick up one or two "cross-archetype" inventions as they levelled from other disciplines?

    A certain number of level 1 inventions, level 2, et cetera. Perhaps like so...
    I'd be happy with this, or possibly a total "pool" of "invention points" maybe? So for example at level 6 they can prepare 12 "points" worth of abilities. This could be four level 3 abilities, but you'd get overall more if you went with 2/2/2 instead.

    Yes, but the poet gets some pretty decent power from his songs. The engineer pretty much only has inventions.
    It may be an interesting exercise to list the "possible effects" available to each class at basic level 6 with their resources. I'll possibly have a go at it when I have some time on my hands, should be interesting.

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    how bout a small inventions known list and the engineer may produce those items as real alchemistical / forged items for material or gold within a laboratory or whatever with craft checks.

    of cause he would not be restricted to only use one or two of his flash bangs on a single day etc. there could be inventions allies can use and those a non engineer cannot use or does something really stupid on a critical failure or a normal failure. Like you envenom yourself rolling a one with poison without class ability. it could detonate a granade right in the own hand.
    Last edited by theDuskling; 2012-08-03 at 05:15 AM.

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    When I first designed the inventions system, I based it on crafting, listing DCs, prices, time to craft, et cetera. It was quite unwieldy. I feel that going back to that system would be a bad choice. "Downtime" varies heavily from game to game, group to group, and I don't want a class to depend on it to function. Also, I don't like the idea of a class's features requiring gold to function - yes, some spells have expensive components, but they're comparatively rare. As difficult as it is to rationalize, I much prefer the nuclear-powered infinite backpack/laboratory of holding version. I'm okay with sacrificing verisimilitude for ease of play now and then.

    Also, to help clean up the invention descriptions, I'm going to be organizing inventions into four basic types:

    Armament: Permanent while prepared, must be worn or wielded and take up equipment slots on the body.

    Grenade: Thrown splash weapons. 5' radius, range increment 10'.

    Serum: Injections that must be applied as a melee touch attack, or, if beneficial, may be applied to oneself (or allies, if a sawbones) as a standard action with a range of touch that provokes attacks of opportunity.

    Contraption: Everything else - essentially, inventions with a discrete activation and a finite duration, but generally do not require attack rolls.

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    So yeah, gave it a go with the Brawler at level 6.

    Overview:

    Best of Wis or Int modifier to AC.
    +2 Dodge Bonus to AC.
    50' Base Speed.
    Evasion
    Unarmed strikes count as D10 damage magical items and may be enchanted.
    May make unarmed full attacks as a standard action for an extra attack at full BAB.
    Unarmed-only pounce.

    +6/+6/+1 Attacks
    +5/+5/+2 Saves
    15-60 + Con HP
    4 + Int Maxed skills.

    Once per encounter, either:
    Swift: Gain 50% concealment for a round and move up to 50'.
    Stunning Fist/Maximum damage with a Strength-based DC.
    Mystic Resonance: Spell Immunity for one spell + Int or Wis modifier x 6.

    For this, Mystic Resonance is unarguably the power move, since with an Int of 16, even in a combat with no enemy Spell Casters he can basically use this ability to turn an ally's cantrip into a Maximised Cure Light Wounds.

    MAD, but the player can pick their MADness. The best feature is probably Standard Action full attacks making for an incredibly mobile combatant.

    Optimisation easily gives Snap Kick for a fourth free attack (and the best reason to nab that 6th point of BAB).
    Superior Unarmed Strike, by RAW is a downgrade, but depending on DM interpretation could up your dice to a 2D6 or 2D8 (which is pushing it).

    Since unarmed strikes are freely enchanted, it's ultimately a lot cheaper to get Flaming or something onto your actual hands, then pick up an Amulet of Mighty Fists for the + to hit.

    Breathstealer:

    Improved Grab - Presumably, though not specified, for Unarmed Attacks - against any size creature, though you can't grapple Gargantuan creatures anyway.
    +4 Bonus Size bonus to grappling and may grapple Huge creatures. With Improved Grapple
    Deals Unarmed Damage bludgeoning damage on successful Grapple checks, which will be made in abundance with three "initiation" attacks a round.

    Since it's specifically equal to Unarmed Damage, this means any enchantments, like the aforementioned Flaming, carry over, and since it's E6, with Improved Grapple and Jotunbrud you can pretty much grapple anyone with your +12 grapple bonus, whilst considering your own size to be Huge, so they can't grapple you back.

    Later down the line, with Wild Talent into Illithid Heritage feats, you can grow four face tentacles and extract brains through the power of your incredibly awesome grappling, presumably whilst constricting up to four different targets with your tentacles for 1D10 damage each. (Unrelated: Looks like a great feat chain for the sawbones, four attacks at 1D4+12 each)

    ... That actually sounds pretty awesome. Fun and very powerful archetype if you can abide the grapple rules.

    Bruiser:

    Deals 2D6 unarmed strike damage.
    Unarmed strikes have optional Reach.
    Ignores pretty much all metal based DR ever.
    May an unarmed strike as ranged touch attacks with a range of 30' as a Standard Action.

    Sort of needs to specify that they're attacking with the Battlefist with this Archetype, and that the Brawler is considered unarmed when they are using their battlefist (if only to avoid Monks-with-Gauntlets style arguments).

    One of the weaker archetypes overall, the Battlefist basically has an earlier ability to enchant their unarmed strike equivalent, and it deals damage as a Greatsword, an average improvement of about 1 damage a round on average.

    You can't power attack Ranged Touch attacks, and seeing as how you can charge a hundred feet and full attack, rarely would that be an optimal choice compared to just carrying a bow and shooting things from much further away or just charging the thing.

    Flavourful and cool archetype, not that powerful.

    Perhaps the Battlefist should count as a Two-Handed-Weapon?

    Cenobite:

    Lay on Hands based on Int/Wis
    Base saves become +5/+5/+5
    May teleport up to 50' every three rounds as a move action. But only where they can see.

    Lay on Hands is... Well it's not bad I suppose. A little strange for a hermit to focus on healing others though.
    Saves are always nice.
    The ability to teleport up to your move every three rounds is.... Significantly worse than Flee the Scene, a Lesser Invocation that can be used every round, and most of the time you can just walk there.

    Not that great to be honest. What do you see the Cenobite as in this archetype? Some kind of "meditate for perfect clarity" type cerebral monk? Perhaps they should be the ones picking up Stunning Fist, being considered a monk for determining how many times a day they can use it, and ending up at level 6 with Quivering Palm Lite?

    Martial Artist:

    Armed Pounce.
    Improvised Weapon Proficiency (Largely redundant but cool)
    Armed Flurry and Full Attacks as a Standard Action.
    Intelligence or Wisdom to damage on Strikes.
    Stance change on an Immediate Action.
    Eleven Manoeuvres up to level 3.
    Six Manoeuvres readied.
    Three Stances.

    Insult/Injury time: Though it takes two rounds and a standard action, Martial Artists may also teleport 50' at a time with Shadow Jaunt.

    Checking briefly through the homebrew styles mentioned, they get a 5' indestructible Wall of Force that lasts for Concentration +1 rounds, may make ranged attacks with their unarmed strike up to 30' away, a stance that gives +1D6 damage to unarmed strikes (the Martial Artist picks up free power points if you know any Sleeping Goddess Manoeuvres for easy Psionic Focus, so no penalty from it, and just grab 1 rank in autohypnosis), a Stance that gives Reach at no disadvantage.

    As a counter they can get Wis to AC. Again. Manifest a Mind Blade for the whole encounter (Call the Heartís Blade, level 2 Sleeping Goddess, I'll let you see for yourselves), Wisdom to Initiative, and a three round single target "Silence" which can't be ignored by the target, and also works on initiators or anyone with class features or feats that aren't passive.

    Those are some wacky homebrew styles, but ignoring those, considering all the Brawler's other goodies (Boosts work wonders with flurries), this may be overkill. Initiator classes may be too powerful to be archetypes, you're basically adding fourteen feats to a Brawler with this.

    Ravager:

    They deal 2D6 damage with their unarmed strikes. Just like the Bruiser, except they can make it slashing.
    Whirling Frenzy thrice a day (for yet another Attack a round)
    If two of his four attacks hit (since Rend isn't restricted to unarmed strikes, make it six for ITWF as well, who needs an attack bonus when you roll six times?), he gets a free Rend for 2D6 +1/2 strength mod, which also heals him.

    * Should probably restrict Rend to once per full attack as an optional free action against any target who he's hit at least twice this round with unarmed attacks.

    Since Versatile Unarmed Strike can make strikes deal slashing or piercing, this is a net downgrade on the Battlefist in terms of DR, but other than that, this guy's a superfreak.

    +6/+6/+1
    Frenzy
    +4/+4/+4/-1
    Snap Kick
    +2/+2/+2/-3
    ITWF
    0/0/0/0/0/-5

    With 18 Strength (you probably should), Weapon Focus and +2 magic fists of fisting, that's +7, enough to hit most non-tanks reliably enough, and not gently either.

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    If you were to take away some of the engineers available inventions, it would heavily reduce their versatility. I would not go so far as to limit them to the two that they get a bonuses invention from. So far, when playing this guy, combat amounts to making the enemy make save vs suck effects a lot so your friends can do the real killing.
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Kholai View Post
    So yeah, gave it a go with the Brawler at level 6.

    Overview:

    Best of Wis or Int modifier to AC.
    +2 Dodge Bonus to AC.
    50' Base Speed.
    Evasion
    Unarmed strikes count as D10 damage magical items and may be enchanted.
    May make unarmed full attacks as a standard action for an extra attack at full BAB.
    Unarmed-only pounce.

    +6/+6/+1 Attacks
    +5/+5/+2 Saves
    15-60 + Con HP
    4 + Int Maxed skills.

    Once per encounter, either:
    Swift: Gain 50% concealment for a round and move up to 50'.
    Stunning Fist/Maximum damage with a Strength-based DC.
    Mystic Resonance: Spell Immunity for one spell + Int or Wis modifier x 6.

    For this, Mystic Resonance is unarguably the power move, since with an Int of 16, even in a combat with no enemy Spell Casters he can basically use this ability to turn an ally's cantrip into a Maximised Cure Light Wounds.

    I will insert a "hostile spells only" clause.

    MAD, but the player can pick their MADness. The best feature is probably Standard Action full attacks making for an incredibly mobile combatant.

    Exactly what I was going for.

    Optimisation easily gives Snap Kick for a fourth free attack (and the best reason to nab that 6th point of BAB).
    Superior Unarmed Strike, by RAW is a downgrade, but depending on DM interpretation could up your dice to a 2D6 or 2D8 (which is pushing it).

    Hmmm. 2D8 would be a ravager, I assume?

    Since unarmed strikes are freely enchanted, it's ultimately a lot cheaper to get Flaming or something onto your actual hands, then pick up an Amulet of Mighty Fists for the + to hit.

    It's like Magic Weapon, but permanent and much more expensive. I'm okay with that - Amulets of Mighty Fists are hard to craft in E6 - a limit of +2 in normal, and +3 if you use the Peasant's Magewright archetype.

    Breathstealer:

    Improved Grab - Presumably, though not specified, for Unarmed Attacks - against any size creature, though you can't grapple Gargantuan creatures anyway.
    +4 Bonus Size bonus to grappling and may grapple Huge creatures. With Improved Grapple
    Deals Unarmed Damage bludgeoning damage on successful Grapple checks, which will be made in abundance with three "initiation" attacks a round.

    Since it's specifically equal to Unarmed Damage, this means any enchantments, like the aforementioned Flaming, carry over, and since it's E6, with Improved Grapple and Jotunbrud you can pretty much grapple anyone with your +12 grapple bonus, whilst considering your own size to be Huge, so they can't grapple you back.

    Later down the line, with Wild Talent into Illithid Heritage feats, you can grow four face tentacles and extract brains through the power of your incredibly awesome grappling, presumably whilst constricting up to four different targets with your tentacles for 1D10 damage each. (Unrelated: Looks like a great feat chain for the sawbones, four attacks at 1D4+12 each)

    ... That actually sounds pretty awesome. Fun and very powerful archetype if you can abide the grapple rules.

    That does sound awesome, and the feat investment required strikes me as being a solid tradeoff for the power gained. I may need to clean up some of the language here, though.

    Bruiser:

    Deals 2D6 unarmed strike damage.
    Unarmed strikes have optional Reach.
    Ignores pretty much all metal based DR ever.
    May an unarmed strike as ranged touch attacks with a range of 30' as a Standard Action.

    Sort of needs to specify that they're attacking with the Battlefist with this Archetype, and that the Brawler is considered unarmed when they are using their battlefist (if only to avoid Monks-with-Gauntlets style arguments).

    One of the weaker archetypes overall, the Battlefist basically has an earlier ability to enchant their unarmed strike equivalent, and it deals damage as a Greatsword, an average improvement of about 1 damage a round on average.

    You can't power attack Ranged Touch attacks, and seeing as how you can charge a hundred feet and full attack, rarely would that be an optimal choice compared to just carrying a bow and shooting things from much further away or just charging the thing.

    Flavourful and cool archetype, not that powerful.

    Perhaps the Battlefist should count as a Two-Handed-Weapon?

    You're right, the ranged touch attack is kind of pointless unless your opponent is standing on the other side of a cliff or something (but with your mobility, you could probably make the Jump check). I'm sure I can find something else cool to do with a battlefist. Getting 1.5x Strength seems appropriate.

    Cenobite:

    Lay on Hands based on Int/Wis
    Base saves become +5/+5/+5
    May teleport up to 50' every three rounds as a move action. But only where they can see.

    Lay on Hands is... Well it's not bad I suppose. A little strange for a hermit to focus on healing others though.
    Saves are always nice.
    The ability to teleport up to your move every three rounds is.... Significantly worse than Flee the Scene, a Lesser Invocation that can be used every round, and most of the time you can just walk there.

    Not that great to be honest. What do you see the Cenobite as in this archetype? Some kind of "meditate for perfect clarity" type cerebral monk? Perhaps they should be the ones picking up Stunning Fist, being considered a monk for determining how many times a day they can use it, and ending up at level 6 with Quivering Palm Lite?

    The cenobite, to me, is "PHB monk" for those purists who want their unarmed fighters to be ascetic mystics. I prefer the dirty brawler type, but I wanted to throw traditionalists a bone.

    Martial Artist:

    Armed Pounce.
    Improvised Weapon Proficiency (Largely redundant but cool)
    Armed Flurry and Full Attacks as a Standard Action.
    Intelligence or Wisdom to damage on Strikes.
    Stance change on an Immediate Action.
    Eleven Manoeuvres up to level 3.
    Six Manoeuvres readied.
    Three Stances.

    Insult/Injury time: Though it takes two rounds and a standard action, Martial Artists may also teleport 50' at a time with Shadow Jaunt.

    Checking briefly through the homebrew styles mentioned, they get a 5' indestructible Wall of Force that lasts for Concentration +1 rounds, may make ranged attacks with their unarmed strike up to 30' away, a stance that gives +1D6 damage to unarmed strikes (the Martial Artist picks up free power points if you know any Sleeping Goddess Manoeuvres for easy Psionic Focus, so no penalty from it, and just grab 1 rank in autohypnosis), a Stance that gives Reach at no disadvantage.

    As a counter they can get Wis to AC. Again. Manifest a Mind Blade for the whole encounter (Call the Heartís Blade, level 2 Sleeping Goddess, I'll let you see for yourselves), Wisdom to Initiative, and a three round single target "Silence" which can't be ignored by the target, and also works on initiators or anyone with class features or feats that aren't passive.

    Those are some wacky homebrew styles, but ignoring those, considering all the Brawler's other goodies (Boosts work wonders with flurries), this may be overkill. Initiator classes may be too powerful to be archetypes, you're basically adding fourteen feats to a Brawler with this.

    I could probably remove the homebrew styles, since they tend to have optional ways of adding them to initiators anyway. As for the maneuvers in general, well, that one is decidedly out of my hands - I can't help it that maneuvers are just... better. I suppose I could restrict them to 2/3 initiator progression if I wanted to rein it in, but that just feels wrong for a full BAB class.

    Ravager:

    They deal 2D6 damage with their unarmed strikes. Just like the Bruiser, except they can make it slashing.
    Whirling Frenzy thrice a day (for yet another Attack a round)
    If two of his four attacks hit (since Rend isn't restricted to unarmed strikes, make it six for ITWF as well, who needs an attack bonus when you roll six times?), he gets a free Rend for 2D6 +1/2 strength mod, which also heals him.

    * Should probably restrict Rend to once per full attack as an optional free action against any target who he's hit at least twice this round with unarmed attacks.

    Since Versatile Unarmed Strike can make strikes deal slashing or piercing, this is a net downgrade on the Battlefist in terms of DR, but other than that, this guy's a superfreak.

    +6/+6/+1
    Frenzy
    +4/+4/+4/-1
    Snap Kick
    +2/+2/+2/-3
    ITWF
    0/0/0/0/0/-5

    With 18 Strength (you probably should), Weapon Focus and +2 magic fists of fisting, that's +7, enough to hit most non-tanks reliably enough, and not gently either.

    I'll clean up the Rend ability, but otherwise this archetype seems to have hit my mark. Fists (claws?) of fury, fighting furiously, tearing mooks apart, but heavily-armored opponents give him trouble.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mangles View Post
    If you were to take away some of the engineers available inventions, it would heavily reduce their versatility. I would not go so far as to limit them to the two that they get a bonuses invention from. So far, when playing this guy, combat amounts to making the enemy make save vs suck effects a lot so your friends can do the real killing.
    That is exactly what I'd hoped for when designing them. A little direct damage, a little bit of status infliction, some cool steampunk equipment, a few weird gizmos, and a little what have you. Upon reflection, I'm not going to restrict engineers to certain disciplines, but I am going to restrict them on a level-by-level basis. This should prevent lower-level inventions from becoming obsolete, and also rein in some of the abuse potential of the higher level ones (Improvisation comes to mind). Whereas before a 6th-level engineer could bust out 5 3rd-level inventions in one combat and still have five left for the rest of the day, now he'll only be able to bust out three, and be left with one (plus the lower-levels). I'm also considering reducing the power of inventions in general, but making them usable more frequently (grenades, for example, I might open up to Int modifier times per day, rather than just a flat three [which does seem to be the magic number of engineers]).

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