Page 5 of 20 FirstFirst 123456789101112131415 ... LastLast
Results 121 to 150 of 586
  1. - Top - End - #121
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2008

    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Conor77 View Post
    My problem was that most of the alchemical items you cited were from various other sources.
    If you do not accept other sources, then how do you handle the non-core spell lists and the non-core manoeuvres? It is impossible for anyone attempting to write comparatively about the various sources that anyone does or does not allow.

    Considering I was demonstrating versatility, rather than power (I would consider an engineer currently capable of a lot better than throwing 1D6 damage flasks at people every round), and core-only restricts everyone's versatility more or less equally, I don't think it's an issue not to restrict versatility considerations to Core as an excuse to give the engineer powerful abilities it doesn't need.

    As a side note, speaking Core only, what would you rule, as a DM, if a player had a thin cloth sack containing six flasks of Alchemist's Fire, which they then threw at someone to break all the flasks?


    That, and the fact that you don't seem to consider how you describe the example classes you make as "extreme character optimization".
    If you will, the Breathstealer again:

    They're wearing Scorpion Claws for +4 to grapple checks. An exotic weapon - that they're proficient with. Not that it matters if they were.

    Level 1: Aberration Blood (Flexible Limbs) - +2 to Grapple Checks. Jotunbrud to count as Large for +4 to Grapple Checks.
    Aberration Blood opens up: Inhuman Reach - Their soon-to-be-grapple attacks now have Reach.
    Level 6 feat: Improved Grapple. If they're having trouble making friends with the full plate guy with a tower shield, then just let 'em make a touch attack to initiate it.

    +18 grapple check before BAB and Strength modifiers.

    Since you have Improved Grab, you may take a -20 penalty to act as though you are not grappled by just holding with the body part you made the grab with. Since you have +18, you can easily afford to get two grapples a round against two different opponents, or multiple grabs on the same target for multiple damage + constrict damage.

    There's feats that can get you the "not grappled" benefit at a -10, then -0 penalty, just start with an 18 strength and bump it to 19 to qualify, but I'll skip Hentaizilla, the six tentacle rending constricter in order to protect 1D4 schoolgirls per round who would suffer his wrath.

    Post level 6:

    Inhuman Reach opens up: Deepspawn - You get two tentacles (by level 3) and another +2 to Grapple. Thanks to inhuman reach, they have reach too.

    +26 total grapple check before Strength. An extra two attacks.

    Battle Jump - They can now drop down onto enemies from a height of 5' in order to count as Gargantuan creatures. This can be readily enabled with skill tricks.

    +30 total grapple check before Strength.

    You can now grapple a Young Red Dragon with a good chance of making the pin, or grapple the first Breathstealer example I whipped up whilst taking a -20 penalty to not be grappled and still have a good chance of winning.

    To extend in another direction - Power Attack > Cleave.
    If you kill or disable a target with your constrict, your unarmed strike, or any other method, you get to make a free melee attack against any creature within your 10' reach.
    15' when you pick up Extend Reach at the next 5,000 Exp feat.

    And whilst you're at it, you may as well pick up Sneak Attack from Extra Manoeuvre/Stance for Assassin's Stance, because those helpless guys you pin may as well take Sneak Attack damage as well.

    I'm pretty sure someone could probably optimise much better than I have, but this is what I would consider to be "extreme optimisation".

    A tactical feat, its prerequisite +1 to hit and damage for splash weapons, and Skill Focus, dedicated around items the most damaging of which is "3D6 damage over time" is not what I would consider to be extreme optimisation. If

    I were going for a more moderate optimisation, I would most likely be talking about making poisons instead.

    Core only?
    Blue Whinnis. DC 14, deals 1 Con/Unconsciousness
    Bloodroot. DC 12, nothing, followed by 1d4 Con +1d3 Wis as a secondary.
    Drow Poison. DC 13, Fall Unconscious/ Fall Unconscious for 2D4 hours.
    Sassone leaf residue: DC 16, deals 2d12 damage/1d6 Con.

    All applied on Ranged Touch attacks. I've skipped the gas attacks (which the Engineer can easily be immune to). All of them can be crafted in a day by taking 10, and you can make one Drow Poison a day for 18.75 GP, less than 10 GP if you have access to the raw materials (a species of underdark fungi). At an average strong fort save of +7, that's a 25% chance per round that your target is out of commission, way better against those pesky mages.

    And you can still battlefield control with oil, smokesticks, deafen people with Thunderstones, battlefield control with tanglefoot bags...

    The Engineer in Core is pretty well on solid footing or better versus the Rogue in Core.

    I see your argument, I really do. Classes need to be balanced. But they need to be balanced for everyone, not just people who know exactly how much extra damage an increased crit threat means, and have every book with every alchemical item in them.
    I appreciate the sentiment, but you must bear in mind - at suboptimal play, people will all be suboptimal. At Core only play - everyone has restricted tools and can still apply their limited resources to the limited situations they encounter.

    Meanwhile, if you balance only for Core, you are not accounting for the interrelation between these things and non-Core. It's things not adequately accounting for non-core that makes up a lot of the theoretical optimisation interactions.

  2. - Top - End - #122
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Eldest's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Someplace Hot
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Kholai View Post
    I appreciate the sentiment, but you must bear in mind - at suboptimal play, people will all be suboptimal. At Core only play - everyone has restricted tools and can still apply their limited resources to the limited situations they encounter.

    Meanwhile, if you balance only for Core, you are not accounting for the interrelation between these things and non-Core. It's things not adequately accounting for non-core that makes up a lot of the theoretical optimisation interactions.
    Setting aside the numbers, all of which made me think that the Breathstealer is good as is. This first bit is somewhat wrong. These are fixed list casters. No digging through splats for the best spells, even spell focus would work well. And you need to see what happens if you optimize the heck out of the mages and psionic people, and them compare that to the op-ed out engineer. Then, if the engineer is still busted, look at reducing the power.

  3. - Top - End - #123
    Orc in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Exactly as Eldest said. I think that the Engineer does need some balancing. but perhaps not in the way that you are currently going about it. A reduction of the skill points gained and the Class Skill list like Gnorman suggested might be more prudent.
    "Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation of the first link on one memorable day" --Charles Dickens

  4. - Top - End - #124
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Gnorman's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Seattle
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Conor77 View Post
    My problem was that most of the alchemical items you cited were from various other sources. That, and the fact that you don't seem to consider how you describe the example classes you make as "extreme character optimization". While I do agree that class balance is important, and I thank you for doing your part to help with that, it is not a problem with my players not playing intelligently, but rather that they have neither the time nor inclination nor money to buy or find other books online to download or purchase. They don't have the PHBII, and they don't want it. I can pull a feat from it for them, but if they don't know that feat exists, why would they want it? They deal mostly with what is provided for them by the classes set forth, and the core rulebooks that they had no problem in obtaining. I see your argument, I really do. Classes need to be balanced. But they need to be balanced for everyone, not just people who know exactly how much extra damage an increased crit threat means, and have every book with every alchemical item in them. I knew what an Auran mask was before you posted about it. All they know are the 7-9 basic alchemical items that are described in the PHB. I'm just saying, not everyone knows the rules system like you do, and not everyone has your access to books. I'd appreciate if you kept that in mind, while discussing this.
    As some of you may know, I'm always in a constant battle with non-core elements, trying to reduce them as much as possible. This is more for practical reasons, allowing greater accessibility to a wider range of players. I'd absolutely love to trim this down to a point where you can use nothing but the SRD to play, and I think I eventually will. Still, non-core sources abound, and I do think it is important to recognize that certain options presented in those sources will have unintended consequences on my classes. I don't have anywhere near total system mastery, and so I depend on posters like Kholai pointing out potentially abusable interactions. They may not be relevant to every game or every group, but I appreciate being made aware of them nonetheless.

    With that being said, I realize that some interactions are limited in scope and require the coordination of multiple sources, some of which may be mildly obscure. I can't design around the interaction of every feat and spell ever printed, but I'm going to try and recognize the more egregious examples.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kholai View Post
    If you do not accept other sources, then how do you handle the non-core spell lists and the non-core manoeuvres? It is impossible for anyone attempting to write comparatively about the various sources that anyone does or does not allow.

    Considering I was demonstrating versatility, rather than power (I would consider an engineer currently capable of a lot better than throwing 1D6 damage flasks at people every round), and core-only restricts everyone's versatility more or less equally, I don't think it's an issue not to restrict versatility considerations to Core as an excuse to give the engineer powerful abilities it doesn't need.

    As a side note, speaking Core only, what would you rule, as a DM, if a player had a thin cloth sack containing six flasks of Alchemist's Fire, which they then threw at someone to break all the flasks?

    You know, I've never been able to find a ruling on this situation. Though part of me wants to reward clever play, being able to deal 6d6 fire damage for 120 gp is definitely over the top. Compare it to a scroll of Scorching Ray (a better comparison than Fireball, considering the reduced area and attack roll required), which costs 30gp more, does 2d6 less damage, and is restricted in use.

    If you will, the Breathstealer again:

    They're wearing Scorpion Claws for +4 to grapple checks. An exotic weapon - that they're proficient with. Not that it matters if they were.

    Level 1: Aberration Blood (Flexible Limbs) - +2 to Grapple Checks. Jotunbrud to count as Large for +4 to Grapple Checks.
    Aberration Blood opens up: Inhuman Reach - Their soon-to-be-grapple attacks now have Reach.
    Level 6 feat: Improved Grapple. If they're having trouble making friends with the full plate guy with a tower shield, then just let 'em make a touch attack to initiate it.

    +18 grapple check before BAB and Strength modifiers.

    Since you have Improved Grab, you may take a -20 penalty to act as though you are not grappled by just holding with the body part you made the grab with. Since you have +18, you can easily afford to get two grapples a round against two different opponents, or multiple grabs on the same target for multiple damage + constrict damage.

    There's feats that can get you the "not grappled" benefit at a -10, then -0 penalty, just start with an 18 strength and bump it to 19 to qualify, but I'll skip Hentaizilla, the six tentacle rending constricter in order to protect 1D4 schoolgirls per round who would suffer his wrath.

    Let us never speak of Hentaizilla again... *shudders*

    Post level 6:

    Inhuman Reach opens up: Deepspawn - You get two tentacles (by level 3) and another +2 to Grapple. Thanks to inhuman reach, they have reach too.

    +26 total grapple check before Strength. An extra two attacks.

    Battle Jump - They can now drop down onto enemies from a height of 5' in order to count as Gargantuan creatures. This can be readily enabled with skill tricks.

    +30 total grapple check before Strength.

    You can now grapple a Young Red Dragon with a good chance of making the pin, or grapple the first Breathstealer example I whipped up whilst taking a -20 penalty to not be grappled and still have a good chance of winning.

    To extend in another direction - Power Attack > Cleave.
    If you kill or disable a target with your constrict, your unarmed strike, or any other method, you get to make a free melee attack against any creature within your 10' reach.
    15' when you pick up Extend Reach at the next 5,000 Exp feat.

    And whilst you're at it, you may as well pick up Sneak Attack from Extra Manoeuvre/Stance for Assassin's Stance, because those helpless guys you pin may as well take Sneak Attack damage as well.

    I'm pretty sure someone could probably optimise much better than I have, but this is what I would consider to be "extreme optimisation".

    I do have to say that this mostly hits the mark I'm aiming for (perhaps taken to an extreme, yes) - the breathstealer is very, very good at his niche, but that's about it. If you invest every feat you have into making your grapple attacks legendary, I would fully expect this kind of monster. I generally play at higher end of the optimization scale. I would grant you that the brawler chassis is better than I envisioned it, and that perhaps reducing unarmed damage, the movement speed bonus, the armor class bonus, and even toning down or replacing Faster than the Naked Eye may be in order.

    A tactical feat, its prerequisite +1 to hit and damage for splash weapons, and Skill Focus, dedicated around items the most damaging of which is "3D6 damage over time" is not what I would consider to be extreme optimisation. If I were going for a more moderate optimisation, I would most likely be talking about making poisons instead.

    Oh, god, the poisons. The reason I got into shaper psions...

    Core only?
    Blue Whinnis. DC 14, deals 1 Con/Unconsciousness
    Bloodroot. DC 12, nothing, followed by 1d4 Con +1d3 Wis as a secondary.
    Drow Poison. DC 13, Fall Unconscious/ Fall Unconscious for 2D4 hours.
    Sassone leaf residue: DC 16, deals 2d12 damage/1d6 Con.

    All applied on Ranged Touch attacks. I've skipped the gas attacks (which the Engineer can easily be immune to). All of them can be crafted in a day by taking 10, and you can make one Drow Poison a day for 18.75 GP, less than 10 GP if you have access to the raw materials (a species of underdark fungi). At an average strong fort save of +7, that's a 25% chance per round that your target is out of commission, way better against those pesky mages.

    I've changed the serum injector since you mentioned this last time, for exactly this reason. It no longer uses ranged touch attacks, but regular old ranged attacks (it makes sense - if your poison-filled syringe bounces off a guy's armor, it's not going to work very well).

    And you can still battlefield control with oil, smokesticks, deafen people with Thunderstones, battlefield control with tanglefoot bags...

    The Engineer in Core is pretty well on solid footing or better versus the Rogue in Core.

    I appreciate the sentiment, but you must bear in mind - at suboptimal play, people will all be suboptimal. At Core only play - everyone has restricted tools and can still apply their limited resources to the limited situations they encounter.

    Meanwhile, if you balance only for Core, you are not accounting for the interrelation between these things and non-Core. It's things not adequately accounting for non-core that makes up a lot of the theoretical optimisation interactions.
    I'd personally like to balance primarily around Core (that may be a contradiction in terms), but still keep the non-core options in mind when gauging interactions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldest View Post
    Setting aside the numbers, all of which made me think that the Breathstealer is good as is. This first bit is somewhat wrong. These are fixed list casters. No digging through splats for the best spells, even spell focus would work well. And you need to see what happens if you optimize the heck out of the mages and psionic people, and them compare that to the op-ed out engineer. Then, if the engineer is still busted, look at reducing the power.
    While I like to think that the mages are much improved, balance-wise, versus the wizard, cleric, druid, and sorcerer, I won't kid myself into thinking that they're not breakable. I look forward to any efforts to do so, and may even contribute some myself. Something tells me that the Green and Black mages may be the easiest to optimize.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conor77 View Post
    Exactly as Eldest said. I think that the Engineer does need some balancing. but perhaps not in the way that you are currently going about it. A reduction of the skill points gained and the Class Skill list like Gnorman suggested might be more prudent.
    I think reducing skill points to 4 per level is reasonable here.

  5. - Top - End - #125
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Nihilarian's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Gnorman, do you have any plans for a generic psionic class? (e.g. "The Psychic")

    Not that I want to make more work for you.

  6. - Top - End - #126
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Eldest's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Someplace Hot
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnorman View Post
    While I like to think that the mages are much improved, balance-wise, versus the wizard, cleric, druid, and sorcerer, I won't kid myself into thinking that they're not breakable. I look forward to any efforts to do so, and may even contribute some myself. Something tells me that the Green and Black mages may be the easiest to optimize.
    Yeah, I listed a few ways. Basically, Sudden Maximize and the other Sudden feats are your friends when you get lots of feats and no more spell levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnorman View Post
    I think reducing skill points to 4 per level is reasonable here.
    They are Int focused, so they will still have skills. Ok.

  7. - Top - End - #127
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2008

    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldest View Post
    Setting aside the numbers, all of which made me think that the Breathstealer is good as is. This first bit is somewhat wrong. These are fixed list casters. No digging through splats for the best spells, even spell focus would work well.
    Just a minor thing, but do note that Core has explicitly different (sometimes better, sometimes worse) fixed lists compared to non-Core.

    At those sorts of optimisations I think the Breathstealer's the go-to Grappler, which is fine, but I'd seriously prefer them to lose some things so they stop being so much better than the Gladiator.


    Suggested changes for the Brawler:

    Reduce Hit Die to D8
    Remove scaling bonus to AC - The Swordsage has Wis-to-AC in Light armour, and it specifically does not gain an AC bonus for Monk levels.
    Slow die progression by 1 level. D6 up to level 3, D8 at level 4+.

    D8 is equal to the Ranger, their closest equivalent intended role-wise.
    Losing the extra AC means that they're no longer automatically better armoured than the Gladiator (Chain Shirt + 2 bonus is better than a Breastplate).
    The Unarmed Strike damage means that they deal damage as though they were a monk of their level, and need to actually invest a feat to get Bastard Sword damage (which they qualify for without fiat), and an archetype to get Greatsword damage.

    Net result still probably outdamages the Gladiator, but they're the least tanky melee Combat class instead of one of the hardest to hurt.

    And you need to see what happens if you optimize the heck out of the mages and psionic people, and them compare that to the op-ed out engineer. Then, if the engineer is still busted, look at reducing the power.
    And this is why I'm moving onto the Hunter at level 6. I'll get to the mages eventually.

    Hunter Level 6.

    Full simple weapon proficiency, full martial weapon proficiency.
    Light and Medium armour proficiency.
    Buckler proficiency.

    Dexterity to ranged damage.
    Ranged Power Attack (I'd still suggest splitting this from Dex to damage and putting it into its own distinct skill at level 2, it's fairly useless at level 1 anyway. As it's presumably precision damage, half bonus damage against those immune to critical hits might be appropriate.)
    Trapfinding (but no Disable Device, which it must presumably cross-class)
    Trapper (he has no listed methods of making his traps, but I assume setting them counts as fabrication, needs a "if positive" to his int modifier)
    +5 to spot hidden or distant enemies.
    Ignores 5 DR of any type, including "Epic"
    Shoot up to the theoretical 10 increment range (I assume this is a standard action), ignoring DR and attack penalties (including at invisible targets) three times a day.

    +6/+1 Attacks
    +5/+5/+2 Saves
    13-40 + Con HP
    6+ Int Maxed skills.

    I'm not sure I like the DR ignoring. I'd suggest restricting this to being able to count their ranged attacks or one handed or smaller melee weapons as Piercing, Bludgeoning and Slashing damage. This ignores the basic mechanical damage reduction methods.

    I would suggest a more standard +2 bonus to spot checks in general, with penalties for distance lowered to -1 for every 20 feet distance for spot checks, otherwise as written the Hunter has the mystic power to sense only those who are enemies of his.

    Additionally: "At level 4, the Hunter gains the Precise Shot, even if they do not meet its prerequisites."

    Since the Hunter's pretty light on its abilities, perhaps it should have either Evasion or Uncanny Dodge at level 5?

    For Unerring Shot, this allows the Hunter with their eyes closed to shoot an invisible Tarrasque standing in a Darkness spell at night, through a keyhole, a quarter of a mile away, and deal damage.

    The mechanics behind this feat boggle the mind.

    How about instead:

    A Hunter of sixth level's ranged attacks ignore the AC bonus granted to targets by anything less than total cover, and the miss chance granted to targets by anything less than total concealment. Total cover and total concealment provide their normal benefits against your ranged attacks.

    When the hunter shoots or throws ranged weapons at a grappling opponent, you automatically strike at the opponent you have chosen.


    Beastmaster:

    Has two animal companions. One presumes these to be a Dire Bat and a Riding Dog, because if you're not riding around on a monstrous giant bat firing down upon your hapless victims which your dog then finishes off, you're doing it wrong.
    May shoot into melee with his animal companions with a +2 bonus to hit and no penalty. - There is no chance to hit an ally in melee unless they are grappling, so without the grappling clause, this is redundant.
    Counts as a level 9 Druid for determining their first animal companion.
    Counts as a level 4 Druid for determining their second animal companion. - This is presumably unintentional, but due to their Moderate Archetype boost.
    May heal his animal companions three times a day for 60 HP a time.

    This raises an unfortunate issue, wherein the Beastmaster's Riding Dog animal companion is actually level 8. In E6.

    The Riding Dog - Fluffy the Terrible.

    15-64 HP +24 from Con
    +6/+6/+2 Saves
    Str 18, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7 (Yes, Fluffy elected to become cuter at level 8)
    AC: 28 (+4 Dex, +11 Natural, +3 for Studded Leather Barding).

    Jump +9, Listen +6, Spot +6, Swim +4, Survival +3*
    4 Bonus Tricks
    Feats: Alertness, Track, Improved Natural Armour, Power Attack.
    Scent, Low-Light Vision.
    Link - Handled as a free action, pushed as a move action.
    Evasion
    Devotion - +4 Morale bonus to will saves against enchantment spells and effects.

    Being trained for War, Fluffy gets a free trip action like a Wolf does if he hits with his Bite. His Bite hits for 1D6+6 damage, with a +8 to hit when not power attacking.

    Fluffy also has a cohort in the form of a level 6 Hunter who follows them around and heals them.

    You'll be pleased to note that Fluffy is entirely Core.

    With Natural Bond, the lesser animal companion develops up to a seventh level Druid companion, or even without the moderate applying, allows them to be flapping around with that Dire Bat either way, leaving ol' Fluffy to tank for the party.

    It may be worth removing the "+3 druid levels" thing, since Fluffy would otherwise still be a level 6 War Dog.

    Aside from that, this is a pretty awesome and powerful archetype.

    I'll work on the other archetypes in the morning. And read all the posts that cropped up while I was writing this one.

  8. - Top - End - #128
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Eldest's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Someplace Hot
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Kholai View Post
    At those sorts of optimisations I think the Breathstealer's the go-to Grappler, which is fine, but I'd seriously prefer them to lose some things so they stop being so much better than the Gladiator.
    Why? What's wrong with the Breathstealer being much better at grappling than the Gladiator?

  9. - Top - End - #129
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2008

    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldest View Post
    Why? What's wrong with the Breathstealer being much better at grappling than the Gladiator?
    You misunderstand. As is, the Breathstealer's a better tank - better AC and saves. Better damage dealer, faster, more manoeuvrable, and sporting generally more potent encounter abilities.

    10' step? 50' move is better.
    Full attack as a swift 1/encounter? Flurry as a standard is better in the long run.
    The Brute gets Pounce? All Brawlers get pounce.

    D10 Hit Die? Yup.
    High Fort Save? Yup.
    4 skills? Yup. And Intelligence synergy for more skills generally.
    Medium Armour? Even at 10 Wis, 10 Int a Chain Shirt is better than a Breast Plate with +2 free AC.
    Modified Whirlwind Attack? Reroll a single miss/encounter? Flurry. Again.
    Weapon can't be disarmed or sundered? Fists can't either.
    Recover all non-lethal damage? Restore actual health.
    Recover from status effects? Lolimmune to the source of most status effects.
    Ignore any one attack? Evasion and better AC ignore more attacks in general.
    Shield proficiency? Just barely closes the difference. If the Breathstealer has 10 Int, 10 Wis.
    Bonus damage to a single weapon of choice? Unless it's a greatsword, fists hit harder and can be boosted by multiple magical sources.
    Kensei maximises if they crit on a natural 20? Breathstealer can just Stunning Fist for maximised damage even if it doesn't crit.
    Pit Fighter full attacks on an Attack of Opportunity? Breathstealer Attack of Opportunities for 2D10 + Strength x 2 + Enchantment bonuses.
    Free Flexible Fighter Feats? Alliterative appeal will not save you now!
    Wields a bastard sword? Fists deal equal damage to bastard swords.
    Magic weapon? Fists are magic weapons.

    The only time a Gladiator might reasonably hope to perform better in general slugging than the Breathstealer who, for some bizarre reason, doesn't want to grapple today, is probably when his +3 to hit with his WoC in situations where that's not offset by being able to take an extra attack at full BAB.

  10. - Top - End - #130
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Eldest's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Someplace Hot
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Excellent points. What if you just removed the armor, cutting the AC by 4 and encouraging mobility, and toned down the unarmed damage? I think that is the basis of most of your issues.

  11. - Top - End - #131
    Orc in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    I agree with this analysis. Armor on a monk-like character doesn't feel quite right in the first place, and I think it needs to be taken away. However, may I suggest doing the same thing as was done with the fists, by making the Brawler's skin enchantable? In fact, as a balance for the enchantable fists, I would suggest making a Brawler's body being the enchantable item, meaning that you can have either armor or weapon enhancements on it, but both will cost you the amount of them combined. Such as, +1 Flaming attacks, +1 Lightly Fortified defense, costs you the equivalent of a +4 enchantment to have all of them. This means that a brawler will probably have to choose between stronger strikes or greater defense. Also, reducing unarmed strike dice is probably a good idea.
    Last edited by Conor77; 2012-08-08 at 09:44 PM.
    "Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation of the first link on one memorable day" --Charles Dickens

  12. - Top - End - #132
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Nihilarian's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Conor77 View Post
    I agree with this analysis. Armor on a monk-like character doesn't feel quite right in the first place, and I think it needs to be taken away. However, may I suggest doing the same thing as was done with the fists, by making the Brawler's skin enchantable? In fact, as a balance for the enchantable fists, I would suggest making a Brawler's body being the enchantable item, meaning that you can have either armor or weapon enhancements on it, but both will cost you the amount of them combined. Such as, +1 Flaming attacks, +1 Lightly Fortified defense, costs you the equivalent of a +4 enchantment to have all of them. This means that a brawler will probably have to choose between stronger strikes or greater defense. Also, reducing unarmed strike dice is probably a good idea.
    The problem with this is that weapon enchantments cost more than armor enchantments. So does it cost as much as a +4 magic suit of armor, or a +4 magic weapon?
    Last edited by Nihilarian; 2012-08-08 at 09:52 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #133
    Orc in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    The problem with this is that weapon enchantments cost more than armor enchantments. So does it cost as much as a +4 magic suit of armor, or a +4 magic weapon?
    \

    Dag. That is a problem. I'm not really the right person to ask. Maybe just a straight one or the other?
    "Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation of the first link on one memorable day" --Charles Dickens

  14. - Top - End - #134
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Eldest's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Someplace Hot
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Eh, it's be limiting and unfair to the monk brawler () to make them pay through the nose for a similar amount of enchants. Plus, technically you can just enchant clothing as armor. Just have their body be enchantable for both weapons and armor. And explicitly disallow the size-changing enchantment.

  15. - Top - End - #135
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Nihilarian's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Which size changing enchantment?

    I'm for not limiting them beyond other weapons. Once you start limiting which effects can be used based solely on how absurd it is, you'll find another absurd fist echantment to disallow, then another...

    I'm all for letting them get +1 Throwing Unarmed Strikes. It may seem silly at first, but you can flavor it however you want. Like making it a Hadouken!!, or rocket fists.

    Now, limiting it for other reasons, such as balance, that I can get behind.
    Last edited by Nihilarian; 2012-08-08 at 11:18 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #136
    Orc in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    He means the rule that magic weapons and armor automatically shrink or grow to suit their user. That would be weird and broken in this instance.

    EDIT: unless he doesn't. :\
    Last edited by Conor77; 2012-08-08 at 11:20 PM.
    "Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation of the first link on one memorable day" --Charles Dickens

  17. - Top - End - #137
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Nihilarian's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Conor77 View Post
    He means the rule that magic weapons and armor automatically shrink or grow to suit their user. That would be weird and broken in this instance.
    While I suddenly have an extremely gross vision of someone skinning someone else alive to wear their skin, I don't think that's what he was going for. "And explicitly disallow the size-changing enchantment."

    What you're talking about isn't an enchantment but a "natural" property of magic suits of armor. He said enchantment, so unless he was mistaken I think he was talking about something else.

  18. - Top - End - #138
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Eldest's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Someplace Hot
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Conor77 View Post
    He means the rule that magic weapons and armor automatically shrink or grow to suit their user. That would be weird and broken in this instance.
    That is, actually, not a rule. That role is filled by the Sizing enchantment, which lets somebody resize a weapon to whatever size they wish. Which is a bit odd when your body is enchanted with it. So I would recommend avoiding the can of worms by just not allowing the Brawler to be enchanted with Sizing.

  19. - Top - End - #139
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Nihilarian's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Could have sworn that magical armor re-sized to fit the wearer. Maybe my DM houseruled it.

  20. - Top - End - #140
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Gnorman's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Seattle
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    I'm not sure I'm going to have a brawler's "body" enchantable (though I can't cite precedent for it, I see no problem with +1 robes, or some magic tattoos or something), but it might be the only way by RAW to do so, outside of designing a +0 AC lighter-than-light armor (which wouldn't be that hard, honestly).

    Kholai, your suggestions for the brawler are spot on and just about what I was planning on doing myself. Light armor proficiency will be removed and the AC/speed/unarmed damage progression brought in line with the standard monk. I'm going to have to decide between Flurry and Pounce, because having both is a bit much.

    The hunter: Unerring Shot is on the way out, though it may be incorporated into the hunter's new 6th level ability. I think I'm going to make Ranged Power Attack a feat, instead.

    As for the beastmaster: You're right, the +3 level bonus has got to go. Natural Bond would allow the second animal companion to be level 4, if I am reading it correctly? A 6th level and a 4th level companion is certainly more tolerable than an 9th and a 6th. I threw in a thematic permanent speak with animals ability to compensate for the poorly-worded and redundant Moderate ability, and should probably include Wild Empathy as well.

    Gnorman, do you have any plans for a generic psionic class? (e.g. "The Psychic")

    Not that I want to make more work for you.
    At this time I do not, but I'm not opposed to it.

  21. - Top - End - #141
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2008

    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnorman View Post
    I'm not sure I'm going to have a brawler's "body" enchantable (though I can't cite precedent for it, I see no problem with +1 robes, or some magic tattoos or something), but it might be the only way by RAW to do so, outside of designing a +0 AC lighter-than-light armor (which wouldn't be that hard, honestly).
    ... Bracers of Armour? It's not like there are many potential items to stick in that slot in E6, and it's up to a +3 bonus.

    There are rules that support adding of AC bonii to clothing too, so you can just enchant your shirt for another +2, which stacks since it's an enhancement bonus and Bracers are an Armour bonus.

    With 16 Int, this works out at +9 again, but with a lot of gold and effort put into it.

    I'm going to have to decide between Flurry and Pounce, because having both is a bit much.
    How about: 1: Can flurry on a full attack. 2: May Flurry on a Standard action, but only gains the first two attacks (at full BAB)?

    Wording wise, this would be something like: Every time the Brawler makes a full or standard attack action using only unarmed strikes, they may make an additional additional unarmed strike at their full base attack bonus.

    The Brawler should rarely need to charge, at 50' regular moves.

    Pounce can then be either removed entirely or given as an archetype power.

    The hunter: Unerring Shot is on the way out, though it may be incorporated into the hunter's new 6th level ability. I think I'm going to make Ranged Power Attack a feat, instead.
    Grand. I'll keep an eye for the changes.

    As for the beastmaster: You're right, the +3 level bonus has got to go. Natural Bond would allow the second animal companion to be level 4, if I am reading it correctly? A 6th level and a 4th level companion is certainly more tolerable than an 9th and a 6th. I threw in a thematic permanent speak with animals ability to compensate for the poorly-worded and redundant Moderate ability, and should probably include Wild Empathy as well.
    I think I'd prefer just the Wild Empathy to be honest, a diplomacy roll to reduce animals to indifferent on a 9 or better, and magical beasts on a 13 or better is nice enough for a Moderate ability.

    You know, I've never been able to find a ruling on this situation. Though part of me wants to reward clever play, being able to deal 6d6 fire damage for 120 gp is definitely over the top. Compare it to a scroll of Scorching Ray (a better comparison than Fireball, considering the reduced area and attack roll required), which costs 30gp more, does 2d6 less damage, and is restricted in use.
    For this I'd personally... probably go with 3D6 + 3 damage, 3D6 the following turn unless they take the full round action to put out the flames at DC 17. 3 damage to anyone within 5'.

    But yeah, this is my problem with alchemy too. It's capable of a lot, but how to keep it reasonable? What do you do if the player coated them in oil first? Does enough oil work like the grease spell? What about *actual grease*?

    I have no problem alchemy being cheaper than a corresponding spell (a Scorching Ray scroll is a piece of paper that can produce magical fire and can hit at 40' with no attack penalty vs. you have to lug around a sack full of volatile alchemists fire in the first place and throw it at a 10' range increments), but its the freedom to apply these things in unusual ways that should by all rights be giving mundanes a lot of the things that RAW only gives to mages (and why the Engineer is such a neat character). If I weren't so terribly lazy, I'd homebrew something to codify something concrete.

    I'd personally like to balance primarily around Core (that may be a contradiction in terms), but still keep the non-core options in mind when gauging interactions.
    One way around both this and the inevitable scaling issue may be to explicitly restrict non-core feats (maybe include certain books, make it an "extended core", like Bo9S, Completes, PHB II, DMG II?) as standard for the system, but then have E6C specific feats to cover the gap.

    For example:
    Large And In Charge: You may count as one size larger when performing combat manoeuvres when it's beneficial to you.

    Prerequisites: +5 BAB, STR 14+, CON 14+, Level 6, Must have five feats.

    Scorpion Hold: You may grapple an opponent you have struck in combat with your unarmed attack with one hand by taking a -10 to the grapple check. If you do, you are not considered grappled. You must still move onto the target's space the next turn in order to maintain the grapple as normal.

    Prerequisites: Improved Grab, Breathstealer Major Archetype Power (it would be nice to name these if they're going to show up this way, but I suck at names).


    Deadeye:

    One handed firearm and hand crossbow proficiency. May reload hand crossbows or one handed firearms as a free action with no AoO.
    Homebrew disciplines.
    6 Manoeuvres known.
    4 Manoeuvres readied. Recovered with a swift action.
    2 Stances known.
    Firing pistols and hand crossbows does not provoke AoOs. May AoO with Pistols and Hand Crossbows, threatens a 10' area with them.
    May disarm, sunder, and trip via ranged touch attempts with ranged weapons. (Should probably say not to apply their strength modifier and count their size as Medium for this attack, failing the trip attempt does not give their opponent the opportunity to trip them back). You may still not sunder with ranged weapons that do not deal slashing or bludgeoning damage, however.

    - Free Shadow Hand access basically opens them up to even more SAD via the Shadow Blade feat. If you even bother to use a sword in melee since you get Dex to ranged anyway and a potential ranged-power attack.
    For manoeuvres, just focusing on Shadow Hand and Tiger Claw:
    -They can teleport 50' as a standard action.
    - Sudden Leap: Swift action movement out of trouble? Always nice.
    -Shadow Garotte basically allows them a Ranged Touch 5D8+ Dex every other turn (Ranged Power Attack probably shouldn't apply to ranged touch by the by), with a flat-footed penalty based on a save which you don't really care about.
    - Cloak of Deception means they can invisibly snipe every other round better than the Sniper can.
    - Dance of the Spider (Need an extra Stance feat to get it thanks to Warblade advancement): Spider Climb. This plus ranged specialist. Godmode.
    - Child of Shadow: Concealment whenever you move 10'. Until you get Dance this is what you get Dex to Melee with.
    - Hunter's Sense: Anti-Ambush utility, for whenever you're walking right side up.

    With so few "core" manoeuvres, then outside of qualifying for Hunter's Sense and Sudden Leap they've got three manoeuvres going to waste.

    Finally, you can pick up the Gloom Razor feat, just for the extra invisibility chances from misses due to concealment.

    If the intention was for a powerful evasive sniper then you've definitely succeeded in my book, but otherwise there's not much encouragement for a gun/sword combatant. Perhaps they should drop their capstone for the ability to use one handed ranged weapons to make melee attacks with Reach if they're fighting within 10' of an opponent?

    It just occurred to me that Initiators get the same Manoeuvres known just as an Engineer would get the same Inventions known, so if there's retraining for one, there should probably be retraining for the other.

  22. - Top - End - #142
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Nihilarian's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Kholai View Post
    One way around both this and the inevitable scaling issue may be to explicitly restrict non-core feats (maybe include certain books, make it an "extended core", like Bo9S, Completes, PHB II, DMG II?) as standard for the system, but then have E6C specific feats to cover the gap.
    I disagree. Restricting non-core feats falls under the scope of each individual DM and his/her preferences. And let's face it; whether you choose to limit it or not, groups that want to use non-core will use it, groups that don't want to use non-core won't. Adding E6 specific feats is fine, though.

  23. - Top - End - #143
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Eldest's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Someplace Hot
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Which reminds me, I will need to pull the epic feats I wrote on the old thread over to this one.

  24. - Top - End - #144
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2008

    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilarian View Post
    I disagree. Restricting non-core feats falls under the scope of each individual DM and his/her preferences. And let's face it; whether you choose to limit it or not, groups that want to use non-core will use it, groups that don't want to use non-core won't. Adding E6 specific feats is fine, though.
    Restricting Base and Prestige Classes falls under the scope of each individual DM too.

    This doesn't stop it being entirely reasonable to say "The E6C system is self-contained as such, and using Base and Prestige Classes with them is probably going to produce unexpected consequences." or indeed "This system isn't currently built with multiclassing in mind and as such multiclassing is assumed to be restricted."

    Yes, the DM can override that, there's no threat of bodily harm when they apply rule 0, but then they're doing that in the full knowledge that doing so is outside of the original intent for the system. Think of this as a disclaimer, not a ball and chain.

    In turn, by doing this, you have a finite supply of feats, skill tricks, additional skills, magic items, special equipment, races and the like you need to deal with. Without this, any addition of new feats is liable to stack somewhere on the fifty-odd books in 3.5.

  25. - Top - End - #145
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Nihilarian's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Kholai View Post
    Restricting Base and Prestige Classes falls under the scope of each individual DM too.

    This doesn't stop it being entirely reasonable to say "The E6C system is self-contained as such, and using Base and Prestige Classes with them is probably going to produce unexpected consequences." or indeed "This system isn't currently built with multiclassing in mind and as such multiclassing is assumed to be restricted."

    Yes, the DM can override that, there's no threat of bodily harm when they apply rule 0, but then they're doing that in the full knowledge that doing so is outside of the original intent for the system. Think of this as a disclaimer, not a ball and chain.

    In turn, by doing this, you have a finite supply of feats, skill tricks, additional skills, magic items, special equipment, races and the like you need to deal with. Without this, any addition of new feats is liable to stack somewhere on the fifty-odd books in 3.5.
    There's a difference between "restricting" and "warning about", but I'll concede that a disclaimer about the feats is fine.

    Minor quibble; E6 is not a self-contained system. It relies at least on core or else there won't be enough feats. Unless E6C means E6+Core?

  26. - Top - End - #146
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2008

    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Soft Underbelly: "on ranged one attack" typo.

    Peltast:

    +3D6 to thrown weapons if he moves 10', 1/2 damage against crit immune targets.
    Quick Draw Feat (May wish to actually give them the feat here, since it's a pre-requisite).
    Line Attack throw, with an attack roll instead of a reflex save.
    Full attack with thrown attacks as a Standard Action if they've moved 10'.

    First off, what about scrapping the Peltast's damage bonus and just give them Skirmish equal to a Scout of their level +1?

    1: Skirmish (+1d6)
    2: Skirmish (+1d6, +1 AC)
    4: Skirmish (+2d6, +1 AC)
    6: Skirmish (+2d6, +2 AC)

    This way it applies with everything, whilst letting them qualify for Skirmish dependent feats without fiat.

    As is, the Peltast is kind of boned. Returning weapons are useless to them if they skirmish, they're MADder, they have a shorter ranges than anyone else, and their ammo weighs more than everyone else. And you can forget about Traps (Not that I really like the Hunter's Traps at the best of times), they need to be so close that they'd need an epic Hide to stay unseen whilst they were setting them up.

    Either give them something like Lightning Ricochet (Bloodstorm Blade) at Moderate, or give them some melee bonuses with ranged weapons when they're inevitably forced into melee.

    Sniper:

    Move at full speed whilst hiding.
    Only a -10 penalty to rehide after shooting from hide.
    May rehide as a swift after hiding (Redundant, this is umbrella'd under Sniping).
    Triple threat range whilst shooting someone who has no idea they were actually anywhere near them (15-20 / x2 or a 17-20 x3 for most weapons worth using).
    Outdoor, Natural HiPS.

    Interesting, though the times that the Sniper is going to be useful versus the times they're going to be relegated to regular "Dungeon archery" makes me think of them as more appropriate for an NPC archetype. Not much to say outside of that unfortunately, apart from that Deadeyes are still overall better "snipers".

    Stalker:

    Two Terrain Masteries - Whilst Planar Terrain masteries are awesome, these are unfortunately fairly tame (Until I start the multiclassing experiments at least). Grab Marsh and Forest mastery to help you hide and set traps.
    Set Traps as a Standard action (This reminds me, how are the Engineer and the Hunter setting these traps in their own squares, then leaving without setting them off?)
    Ignore natural terrain effects.
    Swift Tracking - But no Track feat.

    Another class that comes off as a bit... lacking.

    In general, Traps have potential, but at the same time - why is there a DC15 spot check to see a trap in the middle of an empty room? Why is there only a DC15 spot check to see it in tall grass? I'd be leaning more towards dropping the Trap feature entirely and just stick them all with an animal companion or a flexible favoured enemy bonus or something instead.


    Concerning the "Ranged Power Attack" feat, what about having it applicable to any attack roll where the user of the feat may use their dexterity modifier to hit; remove the 2h bonus (which doesn't really make much sense anyway), and have it be precision damage for half damage against crit immunes. Ranged combat is pretty weak generally, so having a neat bonus like that for finesse as well might help the Hunter on it.

    Since I glanced over at them and was moderately appalled, I'll take this opportunity to mention that the E6C human is insanely overpowered. Instead of having more 9 rank skills than anyone else, humans have any two (or three) 13 rank skills regardless of class, one of which is paid for by their human skill bonus. Meanwhile, they also get +2 to any stat for no penalty. Note that other races whose schtick is "Good at that particular thing at the expense of something else" are only equally as good as the human, whilst being countered by having a penalty somewhere else. And two feats, one of which is changeable?

    So wherever I've assumed an 18 stat, up that to a 20.
    For Engineers, assume that you can take 10 to craft up to DC 35 or so.
    For Hunters, yes you can be the primary rogue with trap-finding - but only if you're human.
    For pretty much any skill-based class, the best at it is always human.
    And for the Breathstealer I've been using as an example, they may choose each day whether they have two tentacles and a +2 grapple check, can fly, or have a swimspeed and can breathe underwater, so they can just plain *drown* whatever they grapple.

    I'll be looking at races in more detail later.


    Edit: Whilst class and race are definitely self-contained in this thread, E6 Compendium system is assumed to consider at least Core for feats, skills and the like, yes. I'm effectively suggesting that E6C is a closed system containing "Core + A limited number of sources on which there is a general consensus and Gnorman is happy with" so it's easier to balance.

    Any that are part of the closed system should work fine when interacting (and problems can then be dealt with). Any problems outside of the system are not supported and used at the DM's own risk of shenanigans (and nobody needs to worry about Pun Pun).
    Last edited by Kholai; 2012-08-09 at 11:42 AM.

  27. - Top - End - #147
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Gnorman's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Seattle
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    While I understand the reasons you would want to do so, I'm not going to outright limit non-core sources. I learned my lesson with the multiclassing thing - those kinds of decisions are best left to individual groups.

    As for the human: I definitely see your point.

    And E6C doesn't mean anything, really (besides maybe Compendium) - it doesn't imply a restriction to Core. I usually abbreviate it GE6, for pure egotism reasons.

    A heads up for sweeping mage class changes: I'm considering overhauling the spell lists completely, removing non-core sources (essentially, making the core-only spell list the normal spell-list) but adding an Advanced Learning class feature.

  28. - Top - End - #148
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Eldest's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Someplace Hot
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    One point; the human's bonus feats in E6 go from being amazing to being... meh. I think that the humans are balanced with the other races. They get +4 to two skills and two feats, as well as a few other things. Compare with Orcs. Orcs get a rage, +2 to fort, and +2 to two different skills, as well as being very hard to kill. They seem to be of equal balance. Elves get a +2 to three skills, a 1/day +10 to something, boni against enchantments, and ability to get past concealment somewhat. So the humans have more skills and feats, while the other races get actual abilities. I don't see an issue.

    This is what I meant by comparing all the options at the same time; as long as the power is consistent inside the system, who cares how it compares to a Monk or Fighter?

  29. - Top - End - #149
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Eldest's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Someplace Hot
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    One point; the human's bonus feats in E6 go from being amazing to being... meh. I think that the humans are balanced with the other races. They get +4 to two skills and two feats, as well as a few other things. Compare with Orcs. Orcs get a rage, +2 to fort, and +2 to two different skills, as well as being very hard to kill. They seem to be of equal balance. Elves get a +2 to three skills, a 1/day +10 to something, boni against enchantments, and ability to get past concealment somewhat. So the humans have more skills and feats, while the other races get actual abilities. I don't see an issue.

    This is what I meant by comparing all the options at the same time; as long as the power is consistent inside the system, who cares how it compares to a Monk or Fighter?

  30. - Top - End - #150
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Eldest's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Someplace Hot
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    One point; the human's bonus feats in E6 go from being amazing to being... meh. I think that the humans are balanced with the other races. They get +4 to two skills and two feats, as well as a few other things. Compare with Orcs. Orcs get a rage, +2 to fort, and +2 to two different skills, as well as being very hard to kill. They seem to be of equal balance. Elves get a +2 to three skills, a 1/day +10 to something, boni against enchantments, and ability to get past concealment somewhat. So the humans have more skills and feats, while the other races get actual abilities. I don't see an issue.

    This is what I meant by comparing all the options at the same time; as long as the power is consistent inside the system, who cares how it compares to a Monk or Fighter?

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •