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  1. - Top - End - #151
    Pixie in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    there are some class and race abilities giving a bonus feat which may be switched for another one per 24h. But it is not clear how much time it needs to reselect, is it like preparing spells or every time as a free action?

  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    While I understand the reasons you would want to do so, I'm not going to outright limit non-core sources. I learned my lesson with the multiclassing thing - those kinds of decisions are best left to individual groups.
    That's fine. I would suggest you consider the possibility of including a few simple advisories later on about what should be avoided, like mixing in classes or prestige classes.

    For example, what happens if you take Monk 1 / Brawler 5? Now the Brawler's lost an attack, but gained an attack at full BAB -2. Their attacks now count as natural weapons (+Die size from INA), get twice their Wisdom to AC, and have the Stunning Fist feat for free (which can otherwise never be got in E6).

    One point; the human's bonus feats in E6 go from being amazing to being... meh. I think that the humans are balanced with the other races. They get +4 to two skills and two feats, as well as a few other things. Compare with Orcs. Orcs get a rage, +2 to fort, and +2 to two different skills, as well as being very hard to kill. They seem to be of equal balance. Elves get a +2 to three skills, a 1/day +10 to something, boni against enchantments, and ability to get past concealment somewhat. So the humans have more skills and feats, while the other races get actual abilities. I don't see an issue.

    This is what I meant by comparing all the options at the same time; as long as the power is consistent inside the system, who cares how it compares to a Monk or Fighter?
    I'll be going into this deeper, later, as stated. However:

    Humans get a free better than skill focus feat that stacks with skill focus - they are, quite literally, the best at any two skill they please.

    Humans get more skill points than anyone else. This means they are simply better at more skills than anyone else, and they are better at two of those skills than anyone else - better than someone who invests a feat into it, a feat they can also get.

    Their two bonus skills are class skills. This means they are, quite literally, able to insert any skill into any class, giving them roles no other race can get. The other races, on the other hand, get +2 to set skills that are not automatic class skills. A +2 in an untrained skill is worth ultimately less than a class skill.

    They essentially have a two feat advantage over every other character. This means, effectively, they are two "levels" higher than everyone else. Level 22 may not have much of an advantage over level 20, but it's still a major, tangible advantage. These feats may change every single day, meaning that they get a free mini-retraining every day.

    A +10 once per day on a single roll is valuable once per day, a +4 (+7 with a flexible Skill Focus, +9 with a flexible Negotiator feat) is valuable every time you need to use it, which is something the human can help influence.

    The fact that their bloodlines (Metropolitan in particular) are better than the other races is something I'll go into later. +2 to Will Saves? Meet Half Elf. +2 to Fort? Half-Orc. Any of them if they really need to? "Lightning Reflexes" or its cousins.

    Meanwhile, Orcs? Rage twice per day, unless they pick an archetype with Rage. "Raging as a Barbarian of their level" given twice means they rage as a barbarian of their level. Rage isn't exactly useful for a mage, or anyone of the smart classes, whilst it's wasted if they play as a barbaric class.

    No longer disabled while dying? Diehard is not a good feat, it's a liability; it means that they are more likely to be killed as a potential threat than be left safely dying.

    Rest assured, my comparative balance is not, and will never be, based on "Monk".

    But it is not clear how much time it needs to reselect, is it like preparing spells or every time as a free action?
    I believe that it is essentially it's a non-action, and is consistent with the Chameleon, the original feat switcher. This "just happens" at the beginning of the day.
    You're never in combat, you're not required to invest any real time into it; if you've just started your day, then you can reselect the feat.

    Sentinel:

    I know this class is up in the air, so rather than comment on this as is, I'll just start straight off into a possible revision:

    HP: D12
    Skillpoints: 4 per level.
    BAB: High
    Fortitude: High
    Reflex: Low
    Will: High

    Proficiencies: A sentinel is proficient with light, medium, and heavy armor, as well as all shields (including tower shields). He is proficient with simple and martial weapons.

    Level 1:
    Archetype: (Lesser)
    Uncanny Dodge (Ex): The Sentinel retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.
    Combat Versatility (Ex): The Sentinel counts as a Fighter of their Sentinel level for the purpose of qualifying for feats. If the Sentinel has levels in another class with the Combat Versatility feature, their levels stack for the purpose of determining their effective Fighter level.

    Level 2:

    Ferocious Defender (Ex): Enemies provoke an attack of opportunity from the Sentinel whenever they make a melee attack against a target that is not the Sentinel. In the case of a full attack action, each individual attack provokes its own attack of opportunity.
    Disrupt (Ex): At second level, whenever an opponent gives the Sentinel a chance to make an attack of opportunity with their Ferocious Defender ability, the Sentinel may instead choose to make a special attack of opportunity that deals no damage. If this attack of opportunity hits, then the target must make a Fortitude Save of DC 10 + half the Sentinel's class level + the Sentinel's Constitution modifier. If they fail their save, then the attack misses as though the target failed to beat the targets Armour Class. The Sentinel may use Disrupt up to once per round at level 2, twice per round at level 5.
    This ability counts against the number of Attacks of Opportunity the Sentinel may make each round. It does not permit them to make more Attacks of Opportunity than they normally would.

    Level 3:

    Archetype: (Medium)
    Flexible Feat (Ex): The Sentinel gains a bonus Flexible Feat at level 3. This bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. The Sentinel may change their Flexible Feat for another fighter bonus feat for which they qualify for at the beginning of each day , though the Sentinel must still qualify for all their Flexible feats they have selected.
    Flexible feats may not be used as the prerequisites for non-Flexible feats.

    Level 4:

    Steel Wall (Ex): At fourth level, once per encounter a Sentinel may choose to automatically succeed at a reflex save against an effect that allows a reflex save for half damage. They may only use this ability if they are wearing heavy armour and holding a shield.
    Interpose (Ex): At fourth level, so long as the Sentinel is conscious and capable of actions, they may choose as a free action during their turn to grant one ally within 5' Soft Cover from all ranged attacks until the next turn. Should any attack beat the ally's regular AC but miss due to this Cover bonus, then the attack strikes the Sentinel, even if their attack roll would not normally be enough to do so. Should the ally move more than 5' away from the Sentinel then this bonus is lost.

    Level 5:
    Momentum (Ex): At fifth level the Sentinel may make an additional attack of opportunity per turn. This stacks with any additional attacks of opportunity provided by Combat Reflexes.
    Disrupt.

    Level 6:

    Shrug Off (Ex): Once per encounter as an immediate action the Sentinel may choose to ignore all damage from a single source. They may only do this immediately before damage is rolled.
    Archetype: (Major)


    Design principles used:
    Three abilities including archetype at level 1, two abilities each level after.

    Class features are named after existing class features wherever possible.

    Where clearly distinct, class features are differentiated by name for clarity.

    Class depends on three stats, one primary, two secondary.
    - Constitution for health and Disruption DC.
    - Dexterity for maximising Attacks of Opportunity.
    - Strength for maximising Melee Damage.

    Improvement:
    Base level 1 class gives archetype bonus and basic tools for operation.
    - Heavy armour, tower shields, swords, counts as a Fighter, biggest Hit Die.

    Class gains the biggest jump at level 2; 1/3 level investment gains the defining feature of the class.
    - Attack of Opportunity whenever an ally is attacked, and the Sentinel may use that Attack of Opportunity to force the attack to miss, at the cost of dealing no damage. No benefit to protecting himself, and only applies to those close enough for them to threaten.

    Minor-ish bonus at level 3, plus archetype bonus.
    - Flexible Fighter Feat.

    2/3 level investment gains an additional core benefit to the class' primary role.
    - Steel Wall gives them automatic "non-evasion", helping keep their hitpoints high, whilst Interpose allows them to help protect their allies from ranged attacks.

    Level 5 gives another big jump for their primary role.
    - An additional Attack of Opportunity every round, combined with an extra use of Disrupt makes Sentinels twice as good as they were.

    Level 6 gives class and archetype capstone.
    - Shrug Off gets a benefit over the original in that it can be used continuously, but a penalty in that they can't save all three for the big boss fight.

  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Alrighty, so much there I want to respond to. In bold...

    I'll be going into this deeper, later, as stated. However:

    Humans get a free better than skill focus feat that stacks with skill focus - they are, quite literally, the best at any two skill they please.

    Yup, humans now have a niche: we are very skilled.

    Humans get more skill points than anyone else. This means they are simply better at more skills than anyone else, and they are better at two of those skills than anyone else - better than someone who invests a feat into it, a feat they can also get.

    See above. That is the human specialty.

    Their two bonus skills are class skills. This means they are, quite literally, able to insert any skill into any class, giving them roles no other race can get. The other races, on the other hand, get +2 to set skills that are not automatic class skills. A +2 in an untrained skill is worth ultimately less than a class skill.

    They essentially have a two feat advantage over every other character. This means, effectively, they are two "levels" higher than everyone else. Level 22 may not have much of an advantage over level 20, but it's still a major, tangible advantage. These feats may change every single day, meaning that they get a free mini-retraining every day.

    First, in epic E6, 5 feats are the equivilant of a level. Second, how would you rank all day, permanent disguise self? Gaining powerful build? Are those equal to having 2 feats?

    A +10 once per day on a single roll is valuable once per day, a +4 (+7 with a flexible Skill Focus, +9 with a flexible Negotiator feat) is valuable every time you need to use it, which is something the human can help influence.

    Can't have 2 flex feats, only one. And this guy is devoting a ton of resources on one skill; it should certainly pay rich dividends.

    The fact that their bloodlines (Metropolitan in particular) are better than the other races is something I'll go into later. +2 to Will Saves? Meet Half Elf. +2 to Fort? Half-Orc. Any of them if they really need to? "Lightning Reflexes" or its cousins.

    You may have a point here. But you are picking the most powerful ones to demonstate. Compare them with the Whisper Gnome, the Drow, the Durogar. Stoutheart halflings get +2 to all saves, that's three feats worth right there. All of the Changeling bloodlines are great. Jotun bloodlines are kind of bland but good.

    Meanwhile, Orcs? Rage twice per day, unless they pick an archetype with Rage. "Raging as a Barbarian of their level" given twice means they rage as a barbarian of their level. Rage isn't exactly useful for a mage, or anyone of the smart classes, whilst it's wasted if they play as a barbaric class.

    Really? So extra con is never a good idea? I'd suggest making it so that the orcs can cast while they are in a rage, but really, I'd like to make an orc mage. I think it'd be a great idea. And why wouldn't a smart class want a melee boost in combat?

    No longer disabled while dying? Diehard is not a good feat, it's a liability; it means that they are more likely to be killed as a potential threat than be left safely dying.

    True, but together with One With The War Drums (admittedly very hard to get), you are insanely powerful. And it's still a feat. You were recommending skill focus and negotiator above.

    Rest assured, my comparative balance is not, and will never be, based on "Monk".

    Never thought it was, and wasn't meant as an insult. I'm still trying to convince you to look at the project as a whole and review, instead of the piecemeal version you are doing.

  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Oof, and if you think Kholai is being brutal, I just got torn a new one over on TGD. Though I think they focus a bit too much on the black mage, they make some good points. Going to need to rebalance quite a bit going forward here.

  5. - Top - End - #155
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Yup, humans now have a niche: we are very skilled.
    Humans were already very skilled, and were already the best race from an optimisation standpoint. Now they are the best at any two or three particular things, as well as being the best at "having more skills than anyone else", and they are still the best at most everything else, as they have a two feat advantage.

    I am of the opinion that you (and others) are severely underestimating the value of skills and skillpoints.

    Favoured class Any means Humans are the only class that can pull off a 3/1/1/1 build in any primary class too, if you use favoured class for some reason.

    First, in epic E6, 5 feats are the equivalent of a level.
    My apologies, then I misspoke. Instead they are merely 10,000 Exp ahead of everyone else.

    The main advantage of being non-human - increased attributes beyond human capacity - is gone. Now humans get to boost their primary attribute without losing their secondary attributes; no longer is a 20 the domain of the inhuman.

    disguise self?
    1,800 GP. Changelings, whilst my favourite race, are not a powerful one.

    Gaining powerful build
    Outside of the ability to use larger weapons, this is a single feat.

    With the ability, since wielding larger weapons does not grant larger reach, this is borderline better than Weapon Specialisation so long as you aren't an unarmed combatant or mage who doesn't really do much.

    With a character that intends to avoid being in situations where size modifier is a factor, or where it's irrelevant, then at best this is mediocre, D&D rewards specialisation, and a bonus in something that's not a core focus is almost always worse than a bonus in something that is a core focus.

    Incidentally, since we're assigning value:

    +4 to two skills of your choice? Better than two feats, better than a +4 to a set skill you cannot change.
    Two class skills? Feat - Able Learner allows 1 point rank increases cross class, it doesn't let you boost them as high. Making two skills class skills is therefore a feat.
    Bonus Feat? One Feat.
    Flexible Feat? One and a half feats at least.
    Martial Weapon Proficiency in a single weapon: Technically a feat. Let's call it 1/4 of a feat.
    Metropolitan: Two and a half feats. Noble: A feat. Half-Orc: About a feat and a half. Half-elf: Two feats. Rural: A feat.

    Can't have 2 flex feats, only one. And this guy is devoting a ton of resources on one skill; it should certainly pay rich dividends.
    Misread, sorry. How many resources are they devoting though? A flexible feat they can change at a whim so there's absolutely no opportunity cost? A skill bonus and class skill into the skill they wanted anyway? Skill points which they get more of than anyone else anyway?

    No, they are not devoting a ton of resources into one skill. A +13 is what they get by just investing "as many resources as any other character who maxes a skill", a +16 is what they get for the cost of a daily application of their anyfeat if they know they're going to be using that skill a lot today, a +18 is what they get if they actually devote one feat to it.

    The cool abilities are awesome and fun, skill rolls that belong to level 10 characters? Not quite so in the spirit of things.

    Compare them with the Whisper Gnome, the Drow, the Durogar. Stoutheart halflings get +2 to all saves, that's three feats worth right there. All of the Changeling bloodlines are great. Jotun bloodlines are kind of bland but good.
    Whisper Gnome: Two and a half feats. One of those feats is Dash.
    Duergar: Two and a half feats.
    Stoutheart Halfling: Feat. They are gaining +1 to all saves, not +2. Any level 1 human can take Luck of Heroes for +1 to all saves and +1 to AC.

    Drow: 3-times a day SR (again needs to be changed to immediate action, and brings up awkwardness about awareness about the spell)? This gives a 50% chance of resisting three spells from an equal level spellcaster that doesn't have Spell Penetration, a 35% chance from a spellcaster with it, and a 25% chance from one with Greater Penetration.

    I'd go with one feat. SR 3/day is drastically weaker than SR. You can't boost it, it doesn't scale with actual-threat spellcasters, and SR gets its value by the law of averages - your opponents will sometimes fail the roll through weight of rolling. The net result of this is 1 spell resisted against an equal level caster on average per day. At level 6, this drops to less than 1 spell resisted per day as spell penetration comes into the fore.

    Really? So extra con is never a good idea? I'd suggest making it so that the orcs can cast while they are in a rage, but really, I'd like to make an orc mage. I think it'd be a great idea. And why wouldn't a smart class want a melee boost in combat?
    Extra con whilst you what?

    You get -2 AC, meaning you will take more damage. Barbarians get DR and the highest Hitdie for a reason.
    If you take more than your regular HP, you will still keel over at the end of the rage. If they take enough damage where the rage bonus is actually useful, then they've taken enough damage where they're dying at the end of rage.
    If you rage, you can't use most Cha, Dex or Int skills (aka: Most skills), any ability that requires patience or concentration (as a DM, I would certainly rule out "setting traps" and "activating complex inventions"; I'd be pretty leery of "tapping into encyclopedic knowledge" too).
    A lot of the smart classes would probably like to be smart, something that stops them being smart, makes them more vulnerable to injury, and means they are actually encouraged to split resources to melee (since when all you have is a hammer...). Again, it's better to have a resource that helps you do what you are good at. Resources that make you average at what you are not good at are mediocre.
    On top of that, they become fatigued the moment they drop rage, giving them even more penalties for the rest of the encounter.

    One of his favoured classes is the Red Mage, which he is singly worse at than any other race in the compendium. As a result, the only classes for which Orcs get much utility at all are melee classes, two of which have access to rage anyway.

    True, but together with One With The War Drums (admittedly very hard to get), you are insanely powerful. And it's still a feat. You were recommending skill focus and negotiator above.
    In regular play, Skill Focus is situationally useful for the creation of a skilled character to achieve tricks and advantages normally not available to you.
    In E6, Skill Focus is much more useful because it's at least a 33% bonus to your actual skill ranks, and feats are more freely available.

    In all play, Diehard is a liability that means you die more often than you dying, or offers an ability which can be granted by ranks in Autohypnosis (which the human has as an optional class skill).

    This is actually worse than a feat, because the orc doesn't auto-stabilise, he's just dying whilst still presenting a target.
    With this or with One with the War Drums, in either case applying 1 point of nonlethal damage will render the Orc unconscious anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldest View Post
    Never thought it was, and wasn't meant as an insult. I'm still trying to convince you to look at the project as a whole and review, instead of the piecemeal version you are doing.
    There is unfortunately the not small issue of "time" involved here. I may devote several hours to exploring a particular class or archetype, comparing all of them at once requires understanding what each can do.

    Rest assured that as previously stated I shall be comparing both classes and races side by side once I have gone through them individually. Until this point I will still be mentioning issues that place them clearly above what I would consider a reasonable level above high-tier E6 play, or any other issues where they are not to my mind functioning as intended.

    Oof, and if you think Kholai is being brutal, I just got torn a new one over on TGD. Though I think they focus a bit too much on the black mage, they make some good points. Going to need to rebalance quite a bit going forward here.
    My apologies if I do come across as being this negative to anyone, I'm aware that I can come off as rather blunt, but I am trying to be constructive and provide a mechanical perspective.

    And don't worry Gnorman, the party Brawler is way better at holding ground than a giant scorpion - to an insane degree.

    Since there's been nothing on my suggestions for the Sentinel, and the Zealot is similarly under construction, and the Engineer has already been thoroughly examined, I'll be moving onto the Noble next.
    Last edited by Kholai; 2012-08-10 at 07:37 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #156
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnorman View Post
    Oof, and if you think Kholai is being brutal, I just got torn a new one over on TGD. Though I think they focus a bit too much on the black mage, they make some good points. Going to need to rebalance quite a bit going forward here.
    Some of their points are relevant, sure, but lots of it seems to just be complaining for the sake of complaining. Maybe the problem lots of us have that are following, or creating in your case, have is that we have been here for a long time, we have seen the evolution of these classes and it's hard for us to take a step back now and see where you were coming from and what the classes wanted to do. I mean, I am kinda confused about their feedback, saying that it is hard to read and follow, because that mostly just sounds like they are being lazy.

    Basically, this is what I got from most of those posts: "I can't read this!", "Too many class features", "no balance"(might actually be relevant), "archetypes are dumb", "looks boring", etc. I think one of the issues might be the nature of that board towards rather scathing reviews of anything, though I don't know this for sure. Just because they are really critical doesn't mean that their opinions are always well based.

    Ugh, whatever, I wrote more about this than I wanted to, but I got a good laugh out of the link.
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    I don't actually think you're being brutal at all, Kholai, just a small joke at the various controversies springing up. I very much appreciate the fine-toothed comb you're applying here, and it's been very enlightening for me personally to see the consequences (intended or not) of my choices. All I can say is that I will continue to try and improve my work as much as possible. And maybe not take TGD's comments too much to heart (I'll admit, it was kind of a tough read as I respect the hell out of Frank and K, but they're entitled to their opinions and I to mine). Plus, I think that site hates everything.

    I haven't had enough time to work through your suggestions for the sentinel, but I will soon. I toned down the human as well - Versatility has been changed to simply adding skills as class skills. I may change it to a floating class skill, because I've also given them the ability to reinvest their bonus skill points each day. They only get one bonus feat now, and can't move it around until 6th level. Hopefully this should prevent them from being categorically better at skill checks than anyone else, but still preserve their versatility. Oh hey, I found this book on architecture? After I read it (i.e., tomorrow), I'm going to suddenly have full ranks in Knowledge (architecture and engineering). It may beggar belief as to how the party brawler became an expert forger overnight, though, and I'm sure Use Magic Device will be a very popular choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeltArruin View Post
    Some of their points are relevant, sure, but lots of it seems to just be complaining for the sake of complaining. Maybe the problem lots of us have that are following, or creating in your case, have is that we have been here for a long time, we have seen the evolution of these classes and it's hard for us to take a step back now and see where you were coming from and what the classes wanted to do. I mean, I am kinda confused about their feedback, saying that it is hard to read and follow, because that mostly just sounds like they are being lazy.

    Basically, this is what I got from most of those posts: "I can't read this!", "Too many class features", "no balance"(might actually be relevant), "archetypes are dumb", "looks boring", etc. I think one of the issues might be the nature of that board towards rather scathing reviews of anything, though I don't know this for sure. Just because they are really critical doesn't mean that their opinions are always well based.

    Ugh, whatever, I wrote more about this than I wanted to, but I got a good laugh out of the link.
    Stepping back and examining the work is definitely the hardest part, and trying to maintain an objective eye is almost impossible. I don't think it's hard to read at all, but I know it like the back of my hand. To someone reading for the first time, yeah, it's kind of a daunting pile of text. Their points about balance are definitely the most relevant, but they're not privvy to my design goals and so it can't be held against them. It's supposed to be more powerful than standard E6 (well, in some regards), they're supposed to have class features at every level, et cetera.

    On a somewhat-related note (I probably did spend more time on Google image search than class design): I've thought about this for a while now, and I will be removing the pictures from this thread. They're not my work, simple as that.

  8. - Top - End - #158
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Didn't Djinn in Tonic start his E6 thing after getting the idea from you?

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldest View Post
    Didn't Djinn in Tonic start his E6 thing after getting the idea from you?
    Oh, god, no. He started his project back in 2008, which as you can easily tell was before I even joined the boards. If anything, he was my inspiration.

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Ah, ok, got confused. Hm. Now I'm going to go look at that project...

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    It's a very elegant system, much more free-form than my own - you basically design your own class, though he does provide examples. Unfortunately, I believe it has been abandoned.

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Checking through the brawler changes, it occurs to me that you indicated that the Brawler wasn't going to be a "spiritual mystic" type versus "punch things until they stop moving" class, right? If so, perhaps you should consider moving the "spiritual" things like Mystic Resonance and high Will saves back exclusively to the Cenobite (who would instead gain an untyped will save bonus equal to half their level).

    For general balance/gameplay considerations, how would you feel about extracting the "base-class" capstone entirely, and keeping level 6 as the Archetype capstone?

    Toned down versions of the capstone would potentially be spread to earlier levels (in-fill, to maintain a consistent "two new things" pattern), or moved to the Archetypes?

    So the Level 6 Brawler (I use them so much because they're at the top of the list) would be archetype (greater) only.

    Cenobite would get Mystic Resonance as a capstone 1/encounter.
    Bruiser would get Hammer Fist 1/encounter (they benefit from more Str the most anyway)
    Blink and you'll miss me may be modified to omit 50% concealment (20% concealment might still be okay), and put into level 4, possibly as: "once per encounter the brawler may move up to double their move speed as a move action. They are fatigued until the end of their next round".

    Noble Level 6 to be editted in when I'm done.


    Noble Level 6

    Proficient with Simple and Martial Weapons.
    Proficient with Light and Medium armour, and Shields (Except Tower Shields).
    May take 10 on Diplomacy, Intimidate and Bluff checks (Without an "always", this is redundant).
    Always rush all Diplomacy checks.
    May basically use Intimidate as a diplomacy check except with more penalties and restrictions.
    May demoralise as a move action.
    May give up a swift, move or standard action to grant the same to an ally - one type per turn. (I would suggest that move action be the level 2 version, rather than the swift, and that this be restricted to Half Class Level + Charisma times per day)
    "Gold Standard"
    May spend full-round actions to give all his buddies within 30' 5 Temporary HP and 10' move speed. Presumably whilst giving out swift actions and 5' stepping.

    +4 Attack
    +5/+5/+2 Saves (I would suggest, thematically, it might be more appropriate to be Ref/Wil instead. Nobles are rarely reknowned for their robust health.)
    9-40 + Con HP
    6 + Int Maxed skills.

    Once per encounter:

    As a move action, all allies within 30' of the noble double their base speed for a round and may move immediately.
    As a full-round action, one ally within 30' immediately takes a full round's worth of actions.
    As an immediate action, all allies within 30' may to make a single melee or ranged attack as an immediate action.


    The first issue here, is that Diplomacy is insanely overpowered, and has always been insanely overpowered. By RAW, there's no real need for any combat skills, because you will never fail a roll.

    5 Sense Motive, 5 Knowledge (N & R),5 Bluff, 9 Diplomacy and Skill Focus Diplomacy.

    +19 before modifiers. You can grab a +2 from a Masterwork Tool (A masterwork purple hat with a long feather), and with a 20 Charisma (achievable by any non-dwarf from the E6C races) you have a +26.

    Taking 10 as a rushed action at no penalty means that you can turn any Hostile enemy into a Friend automagically with a 1 level dip in Noble.

    Intimidate without the negative modifiers afterwards is pretty much just as bad - It's a lot easier to beat an intimidate check overall; Their level + wis + bonus to fear saves (only their bonus against will saves) + D20 is almost invariably going to be lower than a DC 35, so intimidate away if you have the time and for some reason don't care to full round Diplomacy them.

    The move action demoralise however, is fairly mediocre; the Noble must threaten them in melee to intimidate for a Shaken state for 1 round. A possible alternative to this one would be to make it possible within 30'.

    Impel: As stated, should probably have a limit, it's much better than any Inspire X ability (The party mage may now basically has a quickened any spell ever from that extra standard action. Ray of Stupidity twice in a single round? You've just dropped half the Monster Manual.)

    Gold Standard: Hirelings are a service. 50 GP per day hires me an infinite number of what level Hirelings again? Because they're all armed with Heavy Crossbows, Spears, and studded leather armour.

    Casting Spells is a service, not a magic item. Any level 1 spell is at my disposal whenever there's someone there to cast it. I shall omit to use my identify items with Appraise, since I can just have someone cast identify for me.

    Whilst my ten million hirelings are ravaging the countryside and earning me a kingdom to rule, I, and my twenty-three million guard dogs (and fifty million support staff to keep everyone fed and happy), shall be at home drinking my free 50 GP bottles of wine.

    While I'm at it, I'll have ten million of my support staff using their free masterwork tools to make small toys to sell to children.

    Discount: Potent but okay.
    Free stuff: Once per day with a successful Diplomacy check by taking an hour to find the free thing. And yeah, probably limited to 5 GP, not 50 GP, since 5 GP is actually 50 days wages for most unskilled workers.

    5/- DR + 10' move bonus? Extreme.

    A lot of potentially horrifying issues with this one, including my concern that a Noble who actually takes their own turn to do cool things is a noble that is not fulfilling their potential.

    Trundling around looking for things, D20 Modern has the:
    http://www.d20resources.com/future.d...ld.officer.php

    Who is basically the sort of role you're looking at here, except, like many things D20M, hilariously terrible.

    It may however provide an appropriate base idea for the "noble" base class. Rather than having an entire class based around diplomancy and being insanely wealthy (insanely wealthy is not really a class feature), these could instead be an archetype - whose schtick is that they are a noble.

    With this moved to archetype features, this would leave the noble ("Leader"? "Tactician"?) with a team director roll. Give them AOE full-round actions to give different advantages to their whole team, more advanced things as they improve, like Level 1: Target Ally gets Attack/Damage +1 on their turn, +1 per 2 levels (+1-+4), (Standard) Level 2: Single ally gets AC +1, +1 per 2 class levels (so +2-+4) (Standard) Level 3: Single Ally gets Temporary HP equal to the Noble's Charisma modifier. Level 4: May apply one of his directions to all allies except himself as a full round action. If he does so the bonus is halved. Level 5: May AOE direct allies as a standard action, or direct a single ally as a move action.
    Last edited by Kholai; 2012-08-10 at 11:10 AM.

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    It was interesting reading the shift from G6 to G6+1 to G7 and what changed in his goals.
    EDIT: Hm. The idea above is interesting. And Kholai, what do you think about choosing a baseline class and trying to balance around that one? It would give a similar effect to reviewing the entire project at once, while letting you go piecemeal as you are.
    Last edited by Eldest; 2012-08-10 at 09:21 AM.

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    Noble edited in above. I hope you don't mind me just randomly plonking down full replacement suggestions like that Gnorman, it seems to be the most efficient way rather than trying to modify things piecemeal, then you're welcome to just pick and choose whichever parts appeal to you.

    Just thought - would it be an idea to simply swap the Core and non-core spell lists? That way the non-core lists are still there and available, whilst the base chassis has everything required?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldest View Post
    It was interesting reading the shift from G6 to G6+1 to G7 and what changed in his goals.
    EDIT: Hm. The idea above is interesting. And Kholai, what do you think about choosing a baseline class and trying to balance around that one? It would give a similar effect to reviewing the entire project at once, while letting you go piecemeal as you are.
    I am very happy to use a base class as reference. My personal favourite at this point is still the Poet (I'm a sucker for Jacks of all Trades). Level 2 spells, decent skills, decent melee, decent Hit Die...
    It's actually got fairly tame archetype abilities for the most part, though I'd need to check that statement with each to make sure.

    I'll be happy to take up another if there's a particular one that people feel is a better benchmark.

    For this I would suggest first applying simple design principles which would then be stuck to whilst handling every base class (ignoring archetypes for the moment).

    For example:

    About two abilities per level - this includes archetype.
    No hiding multiple abilities in a single ability (Combat Versatility is basically four abilities)
    Manoeuvres/Spellcasting counts as an ability on all levels if present.
    A scaling ability at level 1 as standard.
    Capstone abilities for the base class at level 5 - mages get level 3 spells at level 5, and this is their capstone.
    The most potent ability of each class overall should be their archetype capstone.
    Classes should be generally Dual Attribute Dependent, with one tertiary attribute.
    Avoid lolimmunity. - 99.9% of characters should not just be flat-out immune to things (BBEGs and monsters are the exception). It's not as heroic or as cool to bravely stand in front of a fireball when you're lolimmune to fire.
    Avoid autowins - as with the tweaks to the Pit Fighter versus mages.
    Base Classes must be competent at their intended role.
    A Base Class that is competent in multiple roles must not be as effective as a specialist in that role - The Poet is a base class that is capable to an extent in all four roles, but they aren't the best in any of those roles.

    You're welcome to suggest others as well, or in place of, these examples.

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    I might disagree with you on the 2 abilities per level thing; compare the spell casters on an odd level to melee, the brawlers (not capitalized here) should get some good abilities to match the new spell level they just got. Effectively, the mages would get one unmarked ability, while the melees only get an equivilant when they hit +6 BAB. Plus, some abilities are just going to be weaker or stronger than others, nothing you can do about it. I would recomend changing that to "Any given level should not be more powerful than any other level." So a collection of weak abilities would be on part with a new spell level and a minor boost. Seem good?

    Also, the capstones for casters are not the level 3 spells, they are the level 4 SLAs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldest View Post
    I might disagree with you on the 2 abilities per level thing; compare the spell casters on an odd level to melee, the brawlers (not capitalized here) should get some good abilities to match the new spell level they just got.
    If both characters are gaining abilities that support their archetype, and the non "mage" (non-magic/non-engineer/non-psionic/non-initiator) character is gaining two abilities where the mage is getting one, and both abilities are probably stronger than the one ability the mage gets.

    Spells are pretty much the ultimate class feature so this should be easy to balance.

    Restricting things to two per level has the added feature of keeping things simpler, though these features having more than one application (or modifying/improving multiple abilities).


    Effectively, the mages would get one unmarked ability, while the melees only get an equivilant when they hit +6 BAB.
    This is harder to account for; Chassis is not really an "ability" so much as it is "what the abilities are tied to", or "how they pay for an ability". You can't tie it to an extra ability because it's not tied to a class - You don't get BAB +6 as a capstone, you get it for having 1 level in any class which a full BAB.

    It's more subtle with Hitpoints, skill points and saves, but it's there.


    "Any given level should not be more powerful than any other level." So a collection of weak abilities would be on part with a new spell level and a minor boost. Seem good?
    My only issue would be the difficulty getting multiple small things to compare "evenly" to few "big" abilities, but I'm willing to give it a go.


    Also, the capstones for casters are not the level 3 spells, they are the level 4 SLAs.
    This is an archetype capstone, not a base class capstone, and I would be strongly suggesting any level 4 spell is chosen from a very narrow list.

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    I think the poet is a good balance point, too, placed as it is somewhat in the middle of all things.

    I think I need to go over those 4th-level spells very, very carefully (Black Tentacles, Lesser Planar Ally, Polymorph, et cetera, probably have to go). A small part of me is thinking about removing them entirely, as it really does send the mage classes over the top compared to the others. I am considering replacing many of them with UA incantations, though.

    Other points of order: I'm likely to remove non-core spells from the mage list, but keep them around as an "alternate" choice - same with initiator archetypes. I went through them and removed most of the homebrew disciplines (mainly because, as I said, most of those disciplines have ways of adding/substituting them), though I left Black Rain and Falling Leaf in the Deadeye, for reasons of there being no other ranged disciplines.

    In my changes to the brawler class, I did remove most "or Intelligence" abilities, bringing the class perhaps closer to the standard monk than I would like. It's tentative, but I like your suggestions, Kholai. As well as the noble - I've never been happy with Gold Standard or the grand charlie foxtrot that is diplomacy. I think I'm going to make minions a standard class feature, not just limited to the tyrant. I've got to work on hunter traps and zealot auras, too.

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnorman View Post
    Other points of order: I'm likely to remove non-core spells from the mage list, but keep them around as an "alternate" choice - same with initiator archetypes. I went through them and removed most of the homebrew disciplines (mainly because, as I said, most of those disciplines have ways of adding/substituting them), though I left Black Rain and Falling Leaf in the Deadeye, for reasons of there being no other ranged disciplines.
    Didn't you already have a pure core list?
    I'd have core only options be in a alternative rules section rather than just core only, if only because that will make it more likely for people to allow outside core things.
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by wadledo View Post
    Didn't you already have a pure core list?
    I'd have core only options be in a alternative rules section rather than just core only, if only because that will make it more likely for people to allow outside core things.
    I feel like it should be the other way around - design around maximum accessibility, and offer concessions to the converse.

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    I like the idea of fourth level spells being long and costly activities that are a serious undertaking for the mage that takes them. I'm not familiar with the UA rules but I'd be interested to see it.

    Possible appropriate core spells might be:

    Break Enchantment
    Bestow Curse
    Reincarnate
    Scrying
    Control Water
    Dismissal
    Divination
    Discern Lies
    Dispel Magic
    Secure Shelter
    Minor Creation
    Arcane Eye
    Detect Scrying
    Lesser Geas
    Illusory Wall
    Hallucinatory Terrain
    Stone Shape
    Tongues
    Neutralise Poison
    Imbue with Spell-Like Ability
    Sending
    Command Plants
    Armour of Darkness
    Dominate Person
    Tree Stride
    Modify Memory
    Mnemonic Enhancer

    Maybe in a dedicated healer archetype, even Raise Dead.

    Generally I'd expect these to be limited to 1/week instead.

    Since everyone seems happy with the Poet, I'll be going over them next.

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    deedle deedle deedle deeeee wowowowowow deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

    (note: that is what a poet's music sounds like)

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    In-can-tah-tions!
    (wooo-ooo! Wooo-ooo!)

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnorman View Post
    I feel like it should be the other way around - design around maximum accessibility, and offer concessions to the converse.
    My thought is primarily from the idea that if you design it with Core as the basis, and non-Core as an alternate option, people will be significantly less likely to use the non-Core option, because people are silly.
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    Maybe this is the only true fix for spellcasting, making people scared of using it.
    Quote Originally Posted by dragonprime View Post
    There's a concept called mercy. Are you familiar with it?
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Forgot to say: Brawler getting bonuses from Wisdom is fine by me - Wisdom involves how aware you are of your surroundings, which is thematically how the brawler's talents work regardless.

    Anyway, Poet with the earlier design principles applied:

    Eye of Newt - Unchanged, Half spellcasting - So essentially a "half" ability each level, no capstone as it's without level 3 spells.

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    White: Trapfinding, healing, combat buffing.
    Blue: Secret Door detection, unlock anything, mobility and concealment, limited combat buffing and "social" spells such as charms, limited debuffing.
    Green: Healing, limited trapfinding, combat buffing, battlefield control, mobility and concealment.
    Red: Blasting (With Fiery Burst, Searing Ray is 8D6 ranged touch no save), battlefield control, limited combat buffing (plus rarely, if ever, can a problem not be solved with the Mount spell, not least summoning a ton of terrified horse 40' in the air for 9D6 damage within 10', no save).
    Black: "Social spells" in the form of disguise self and command, limited blasting, limited debuffing.

    The Poet's role varies based on the lists chosen, but not a huge amount considering how few spells they get.

    It's worth noting that because of the overlap issue with similar spell lists either having multiple effects for similar purposes or simply having the same spell, it's in the Poet's best interest to make the most of their unique ability to generalise into a very different field. Overall I'd say that Green/Red, Green/Blue or Blue/Red offer the most optimal combinations.


    Inspirations:

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    Inspiration: A number of times per day equal to his poet level + his Charisma modifier, a Poet may produce magical effects known as Inspirations on those around him through spoken word, song or with an instrument, though the quality of the performance is irrelevant to the power that sound contains.

    Starting an Inspiration is a standard action. Some inspirations require concentration, which means the poet must take a standard action each round to maintain the ability. Even while using Inspirations that donít require concentration, a poet cannot cast spells, activate magic items by spell completion (such as scrolls), spell trigger (such as wands), or command word. Just as for casting a spell with a verbal component, a deaf poet has a 20% chance to fail when attempting to use inspirations. If he fails, the attempt still counts against his daily limit.

    The Poet is considered to have the Bardic Music class feature for the purpose of qualifying for feats. Any effect that applies to Bardic Music instead effects their Inspiration ability.

    [Note: Fascinate is Perform dependent, and therefore incompatible with the Poet ethos, as such, it has been removed, and a new inspiration included to replace it and Suggestion. Transparency with Bardic Music allows the Poet to use bard specific feats without a serious rewrite.]

    - Inspire Courage (Su)

    With this Inspiration a Poet may inspire courage in their allies (including themselves), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. To be affected, an ally must be able to hear the Poet perform. The effect lasts for as long as the ally hears the Poet perform and for 5 rounds thereafter. An affected ally receives a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +1 morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls.

    Inspire Courage is a mind-affecting ability.

    [Note: Unlike the Bard, none of the Poet's abilities scale, and are not counted as scaling accordingly. Effectively these are isolated abilities keyed off of Inspiration uses.]

    - Inspire Competence (Su)
    A Poet of 2nd level or higher can use an Inspiration to help an ally succeed at a task. The Poet must also be able to see the ally.

    The ally gets a +2 competence bonus on skill checks with a particular skill as long as he or she continues to hear the Poet's performance. Certain uses of this ability are infeasible. The effect lasts as long as the Poet concentrates, up to a maximum of 2 minutes. A Poet cannot inspire competence in themselves. Inspire competence is a mind-affecting ability.

    [i][Note: Moved to level 2 for consistent accumulation of abilities.]

    - Inspire Health (Su)

    A Poet of 4th level or higher can use an Inspiration to fill their allies (including themselves) with supernatural vigour. Allies must be within 30 feet and able to see and hear the Poet.

    Allies get Fast Healing 1 as long as he or she continues to hear the Poet's performance and they are beneath 50% of their maximum hit points. The effect lasts as long as the Poet concentrates, up to a maximum of 2 minutes.

    [Note: Renamed for consistency, despite my appreciation for the original name.]


    The Food of Love: At second level, the Poet gains Sonic Resistance 5, this increases to Sonic Resistance 10 at level 5.

    Words of Power (Su): At third level, the Poet learns to fuel their performances with magical power. As a standard action, the Poet may sacrifice one of their spells per day to recover one use of their Inspiration ability per level of the spell sacrificed in this way.

    A Charmed Life (Ex): At sixth level, the Poet can no longer roll a natural one on anything - if he does, he may immediately gains a free reroll. They must abide by the results of the reroll, unless it is another natural one. They may do this a number of times per day equal to his charisma modifier (for a minimum of one).
    Any time the Poet rolls a natural twenty, they may use this ability an additional time per day.

    It takes no action to use this ability.

    [Note: Amended for balance - the ability to not just "ignore failure on 1" for everything, but also reroll for a guaranteed chance of a better result" is superior to epic feats.]



    This all would leave the Poet looking like this:

    {table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|0|1|2

    1st|+0|+0|+2|+2|Archetype Power (Lesser), Eye of Newt, Inspiration, Inspire Courage|2|-|-

    2nd|+1|+0|+3|+3|Inspire Competence, Sonic resistance 5|3|0|-

    3rd|+2|+1|+3|+3|Archetype Power (Moderate)|3|1|-

    4th|+3|+1|+4|+4|Inspire Health|3|2|0

    5th|+3|+1|+4|+4|A Charmed Life, Sonic resistance 10|3|3|1

    6th|+4|+2|+5|+5|Archetype Power (Greater)|3|3|2[/table]
    Last edited by Kholai; 2012-08-11 at 04:46 PM.

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Words of power is pretty awful. You get around 4 inspirations per day at level one, and you will get up to about 10 at level 6. Why would I burn a spell to do it again? I don't see the point of removing The Food of Love, it doesn't do much. Overall, that kinda seems bare.

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldest View Post
    Words of power is pretty awful. You get around 4 inspirations per day at level one, and you will get up to about 10 at level 6. Why would I burn a spell to do it again? I don't see the point of removing The Food of Love, it doesn't do much. Overall, that kinda seems bare.
    I've intentionally left it as bare as possible. I'd sooner have too little and we then add to it than start out too extreme.

    Food of Love as a flat immunity is against the design principles I was working on.

    Sonic Resistance 5 on its own would be fine as a half ability, however.

    Words of Power on its own is a half-ability; for the base Poet it's uninspiring (1-2 inspirations for a spell isn't a great trade-off), but would the Banshee, for example, be happy to spend a level 1 spell to AOE damage/stun an extra time?

    Any ideas on toned down versions of the capstone that might make another half ability or two?

    Edit: Table and info updated.
    Last edited by Kholai; 2012-08-11 at 04:49 PM.

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    So if you are going for 2 abilities worth per level, would you mind listing number of abilities that design has as is?

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldest View Post
    So if you are going for 2 abilities worth per level, would you mind listing number of abilities that design has as is?
    Level 1: Half Spellcasting, Inspirations (Pseudo Ability), Inspire Courage, Archetype (Minor)

    2-2.5 abilities. Inspiration itself is a non-ability, Half Spellcasting at this level is essentially two cantrips so its value is fairly low at the moment, but I'm happy with a slightly stronger start to a class.

    Level 2: Inspire Competence, Sonic Resistance 5, Half Spellcasting

    Sonic Resistance 5 is half as potent as the Warlock equivalent, so this is about two abilities.

    Level 3: Words of Power, Half Spellcasting, Moderate Archetype

    Depending on the potency of the Archetype ability when they've been rendered approximately even, this is about two again, you're right that WoP isn't especially powerful.

    Level 4: Inspire Health, Half Spellcasting.

    One and a half abilities, casting just hit 2nd level spells though, which is a decent boost for the Poet.

    Level 5: Charmed Life, Sonic Resist +5, Half Spellcasting

    Two abilities again.

    Level 6: Archetype power (Major), Half Spellcasting.

    Half, plus capstone.

    As an alternative, Sonic Resist +5 could be level 2, 4 and 6, and something else small but neat could go into level 5.

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnorman View Post
    The Noble

    Gold Standard: The noble gains a 10% discount on all purchases. In addition, goods and services that costs 50 gold pieces or less (before discount) are considered free (they may not be resold, however), with the exception of magical and alchemical items. The noble may also identify magic items with a successful Appraise check, with the DC equal to 20, plus one for every 500 gp of the price of the item in question.
    There's a bit of a problem with this. With no limitations, you could effectively walk into a city and own everything for sale in it less than 50gp. Or, you could hire an entire army of hirelings, also for free.
    ~ZA

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeltArruin View Post
    There's a bit of a problem with this. With no limitations, you could effectively walk into a city and own everything for sale in it less than 50gp. Or, you could hire an entire army of hirelings, also for free.
    Oh yeah. It's on the chopping block.

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