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  1. - Top - End - #181
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    A hypothetical redesign of the black mage:

    {table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|0|1|2|3

    1st|+0|+0|+0|+2|Archetype Power (Lesser), Spellcasting|5|4|-|-

    2nd|+1|+0|+0|+3|Advanced Learning, Rebuke Undead|6|5|-|-

    3rd|+1|+1|+1|+3|Archetype Power (Moderate)|6|6|3|-

    4th|+2|+1|+1|+4|Advanced Learning, Fell Knowledge|6|6|4|-

    5th|+2|+1|+1|+4|Minion Mastery|6|6|5|3

    6th|+3|+2|+2|+5|Advanced Learning, Archetype Power (Greater)|6|6|6|4[/table]

    Fiendish Familiar gets axed due to being overly powerful

    Advanced Learning: the black mage may add one spell to his list of spells known. This spell may not be of a higher level than the highest level of spells the black mage is normally capable of casting. This spell may be from the conjuration or necromancy schools, and may be drawn from either the sorcerer/wizard or cleric spell lists.

    This would assume core-only spell lists, allowing mage classes to access non-core choices with Advanced Learning. This would also allow two necromancers, for example, to differentiate themselves a little.

    Another possibility for reining in mage classes: d4 HD and no armor proficiency.

  2. - Top - End - #182
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnorman View Post
    A hypothetical redesign of the black mage:

    {table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|0|1|2|3

    1st|+0|+0|+0|+2|Archetype Power (Lesser), Spellcasting|5|4|-|-

    2nd|+1|+0|+0|+3|Advanced Learning, Rebuke Undead|6|5|-|-

    3rd|+1|+1|+1|+3|Archetype Power (Moderate)|6|6|3|-

    4th|+2|+1|+1|+4|Advanced Learning, Fell Knowledge|6|6|4|-

    5th|+2|+1|+1|+4|Minion Mastery|6|6|5|3

    6th|+3|+2|+2|+5|Advanced Learning, Archetype Power (Greater)|6|6|6|4[/table]

    Fiendish Familiar gets axed due to being overly powerful

    Advanced Learning: the black mage may add one spell to his list of spells known. This spell may not be of a higher level than the highest level of spells the black mage is normally capable of casting. This spell may be from the conjuration or necromancy schools, and may be drawn from either the sorcerer/wizard or cleric spell lists.

    This would assume core-only spell lists, allowing mage classes to access non-core choices with Advanced Learning. This would also allow two necromancers, for example, to differentiate themselves a little.

    Another possibility for reining in mage classes: d4 HD and no armor proficiency.
    Without going too deep into it, looks good to me. A few levels where it pushes the envelope a little, but nothing serious.

    I would consider stripping out "cast in armour" and leave it with Red (and possibly certain archetype) mages. I'm less sold on the D4; mages are half cleric, half mage, so a D6 seems an adequate compromise unless further testing demonstrates them to be just that good.
    Last edited by Kholai; 2012-08-12 at 06:10 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnorman View Post
    Another possibility for reining in mage classes: d4 HD and no armor proficiency.
    The Mage class chassis doesn't really need any reigning in, as any problem stem from the actual spells and abilities; artificially weakening mages to somehow "compensate" only makes them squishier in a game where healing is much rarer than in standard d&d and where resurrection is almost unheard of. The fact that most casters can't have access to all the buffs usually used to compensate for their little health and armor (things like Mage Armor, Blur, Invisibility, and all the other spells that make arcane casters somewhat durable) already accentuates this.

    Also, the d4 is just too small for a player character, especially in the post 6th level experience; it's why Pathfinder removed it.
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  4. - Top - End - #184
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Points duly noted, and the d6 HD will remain. I think light armor proficiency will also stick around, as my concession for the reduced spell lists.

    Black mage has been converted to core and Fiendish Familiar has been removed - mages probably shouldn't get to be two characters in one, and there's always Obtain Familiar if they can't live without it. This will also mean that the Elementalist green mage will have his companion removed, when I get to it.

  5. - Top - End - #185
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    There's also Wild Cohort if you want Animal Companion-lite
    Last edited by Nihilarian; 2012-08-12 at 07:06 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #186
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    The sentinel, while not quite complete, has been overhauled. Interception was an awkward mechanic, requiring an attack roll to avoid another attack roll. Now it allows the sentinel's allies to use the sentinel's armor class instead of their own (well, at least the armor bonus component of that). Should hopefully be a little smoother and more elegant. The sentinel can now also challenge all foes within a certain radius to attack him and him alone. I should probably have an ability that penalizes opponent who do not attack the sentinel, and I may fit that in elsewhere.

  7. - Top - End - #187
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    So, excepting the praetorian and bastion, interception makes an ally wear your full plate for an attack? To tell you the truth I don't really like it. What if the sentinel is caught sleeping naked with his wife by an assasin. He can't protect her then at all. Perhaps you should make it a flat +4 or +6 bonus (considering everyone can wear a chain shirt) or his armor bonus (so +8 usually), whichever is higher to help in cases like that. Also his challenge has an unlimited range, so he could challenge whole armies . I guess E6 Kratos dipped Sentinel.
    Last edited by D-naras; 2012-08-14 at 06:01 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #188
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by D-naras View Post
    So, excepting the praetorian and bastion, interception makes an ally wear your full plate for an attack? To tell you the truth I don't really like it. What if the sentinel is caught sleeping naked with his wife by an assasin. He can't protect her then at all. Perhaps you should make it a flat +4 or +6 bonus (considering everyone can wear a chain shirt) or his armor bonus (so +8 usually), whichever is higher to help in cases like that. Also his challenge has an unlimited range, so he could challenge whole armies . I guess E6 Kratos dipped Sentinel.
    I see your point on the sentinel, though I do want to encourage them to be the heavily-armored tank. Perhaps an additional bonus to the ally's armor class equal to the sentinel's BAB? That would make even a naked sentinel capable of protecting someone somewhat.

    Challenge's range is an oversight on my part. Will fix. Should be 30'.

    I'm envisioning the new sentinel as sort of a combat-oriented chessmaster, repositioning himself and allies to best defensive advantage while penalizing opponents for choosing targets other than himself.

  9. - Top - End - #189
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    i d prefer a flat bonus maybe increasing at lvl 6. If you get bab as bonus at first level just 5% of the attacks assuming the opponent needs to roll a 10 to hit miss due to the inception ability, which is to less to get really noticed.

    in my eyes a flat +4 increasing to +6 at lvl 6 or a flat attribute modifier would do the it better.



    the scoundrel->cutthroat got a problem at lvl 4 he got 8 maneuvers known but his very narrow list got only 6 possible maneuvers he can choose from. he might get another discipline like the iron heart or sth.

    another thing is the blackmages->necros enervation spell-like ability. enervation got no save just a ranged touch attack and if its maximized and empowerd it is a no save instagib for any not immune e6 char. how bout giving him eduads black tentacles? they are no necromancy spell, but a necromancer is a conjurer aswell.

    at last a suggestion of mine about the zealot->initiate. how about giving him the choice of taking blackmage instead of whitemage if the character is evil?

  10. - Top - End - #190
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Not to rehash my original suggestion for the Sentinel here, but the Cover mechanic already exists and is inherently scaling for these purposes. It would easily be possible to give increased cover should the Sentinel be using a shield.

  11. - Top - End - #191
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    yea but what would happen to those landsknechts out of there using two handed spears.

  12. - Top - End - #192
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by theDuskling View Post
    yea but what would happen to those landsknechts out of there using two handed spears.
    Presumably they would wear a buckler, or not grant an improved cover bonus and be left at +4, no?

  13. - Top - End - #193
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by theDuskling View Post
    i d prefer a flat bonus maybe increasing at lvl 6. If you get bab as bonus at first level just 5% of the attacks assuming the opponent needs to roll a 10 to hit miss due to the inception ability, which is to less to get really noticed.

    in my eyes a flat +4 increasing to +6 at lvl 6 or a flat attribute modifier would do the it better.

    the scoundrel->cutthroat got a problem at lvl 4 he got 8 maneuvers known but his very narrow list got only 6 possible maneuvers he can choose from. he might get another discipline like the iron heart or sth.

    another thing is the blackmages->necros enervation spell-like ability. enervation got no save just a ranged touch attack and if its maximized and empowerd it is a no save instagib for any not immune e6 char. how bout giving him eduads black tentacles? they are no necromancy spell, but a necromancer is a conjurer aswell.

    at last a suggestion of mine about the zealot->initiate. how about giving him the choice of taking blackmage instead of whitemage if the character is evil?
    Black Tentacles is currently off limits as a Capstone spell. It's just too much. I should probably do the same with Enervation, due to things like Maximize and Empower SLA. Death Ward may be an appropriate replacement.

    I'll look into the other parts. The zealot suggestion seems reasonable. I'm about this close to removing the initiator archetypes and relegating them to the "Alternate Classes" section.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kholai View Post
    Not to rehash my original suggestion for the Sentinel here, but the Cover mechanic already exists and is inherently scaling for these purposes. It would easily be possible to give increased cover should the Sentinel be using a shield.
    Oops, I seemed to have missed those. I like the idea of granting cover, but Disrupt seems a bit like it would bog down combat (attack + opponent save for every time you use it). I don't generally like to use "two rolls to make it work" effects, though for powerful effects like engineer inventions or sage strikes I occasionally find it appropriate. I do like Ferocious Defender, though. I'd be more inclined to just say "Hey, if your Ferocious Defender AoO hits, you can choose to have it do no damage to stop the incoming attack."

    Quote Originally Posted by theDuskling View Post
    yea but what would happen to those landsknechts out of there using two handed spears.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kholai View Post
    Presumably they would wear a buckler, or not grant an improved cover bonus and be left at +4, no?
    Landsknechts sacrifice defensive abilities for increased covering area, seems fair. It and all other archetypes are in transition right now, to account for outdated mechanics.

    EDIT: Working a bit on the warlock right now; progress has been slowed somewhat by real life.

  14. - Top - End - #194
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    That is quite a nerf to the engineer. The main problem now is nova and having no inventions the other rounds.

    From the changes it looks like the engineer will now need to buy a weapon (probably ranged) unless they take a gun invention. This could be a positive thing, as before I don't think I really used any of the engineers weapons, just his bombs and things.

    This makes the engineer more a rouge with a couple of tricks up his sleeve but with less damage output. Whether this balances with the other classes though, I'm not sure.
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  15. - Top - End - #195
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Mangles View Post
    That is quite a nerf to the engineer. The main problem now is nova and having no inventions the other rounds.

    From the changes it looks like the engineer will now need to buy a weapon (probably ranged) unless they take a gun invention. This could be a positive thing, as before I don't think I really used any of the engineers weapons, just his bombs and things.

    This makes the engineer more a rouge with a couple of tricks up his sleeve but with less damage output. Whether this balances with the other classes though, I'm not sure.
    It was pretty significant yeah. I think though, after examining all the angles and hearing out all the suggestions, that it is the best route for the engineer. Being able to bust out five level three inventions in one combat was a bit much, especially when you consider that level three inventions were on par (or sometimes even better than) level three spells. Your typical mage class could technically do the same at the cost of all his level three spell slots for the day - the previous incarnation of the engineer could still have five level three inventions left. So it A.) could use more powerful effects than the mage B.) could use them more often than the mage and C.) was better than the mage in almost every other respect - HD, skills, class features, et cetera. Toning down Improvisation and breaking Inventions Per Day down into levels was a reasonable way to rein that in without sacrificing the core essence of what the engineer is supposed to do.

    However, balancing it against mages is only the start - I need to make sure that it's balanced against the other skilled classes. Right now, in my estimation, the Engineer and the Poet are a good baseline for what skilled classes should be capable of - jack-of-trades, with wide variety and adaptability, but not the pinnacles of power. The Sage redesign might be a bit over the top there (it certainly was when it had spellcasting), the Noble has been redone in some respects but still needs some work, and the Scoundrel honestly probably needs a boost.

  16. - Top - End - #196
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    the engineer just seems a little bit weak at first look,but there are so many cool alchemical items you may craft in an amount of time a player normally cannot afford.
    he can as only class to repair damaged items.
    he got some healing powers that will lower the resting time, the sawbones got the only resurrecting power till now. by the way will there be an incantation for it in the near future?
    and he is damned good with splash weapons :D.

  17. - Top - End - #197
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    In a move that I may or may not regret, I've decided to make base class capstones usable once per day. Partly for design consistency, partly because I think I may have veered more towards the generous side of resource management (which contradicts somewhat the intention of E6).

  18. - Top - End - #198
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Whelp, since you said yes to my request, and to simultaneously put a post in here so I got it marked and can find this thread in 3 seconds instead of 5, I shall show you my new toys: races! Ones with similar mechanics as the E6 ones as here! Just, not for E6 specifically. Or as awesome. But mainly fitting more for my setting, is all.

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  19. - Top - End - #199
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Always happy to see new ideas take flight. I'll spend some time looking over your new races when I get the chance.

  20. - Top - End - #200
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    It's been a long time since I last looked at this project I'm glad to see it's still coming along, and coming along so nicely, to boot. The inclusion of more subsystems is good to see.

    (Out of curiosity, why did you get rid of all the art you had up?)

    EDIT: Also, why'd you cut the Intelligence-based part out of Brawler?
    Last edited by gkathellar; 2012-08-19 at 07:22 PM.
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  21. - Top - End - #201
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Human Soldier
    +2 Strength
    For the purposes of qualifying for feats, soldiers treat their BAB as equal to their hit dice and count as fighters of their own level.

    this makes the soldier rather a good race for non combat archetypes and a not that good one for especially the gladiator or the fighter, granting them no sub race special at all.

    maybe he should get a martial weapon proficiency and medium armor proficiency and +1 attack and +1 damage for a weapon or +1 maximal dexterity mod and 1 lower armor penalty for one armor of choice.

    and why did the half races completely disappear :(?
    Last edited by theDuskling; 2012-08-20 at 02:35 PM. Reason: new idea

  22. - Top - End - #202
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Because what if you want to play a dextrous human rogue and don't want some dirty elf blood in your veins?

    No offense to any elves reading this.

  23. - Top - End - #203
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    i could argue as well that i would not want to be some kind of a fish folk with big lungs XD, but i believe in co-existence..^^

    who would get the job of the half orc bouncers :p.

    well, the main point is that half races rooted in campaign settings like forgotten realms ^^
    Last edited by theDuskling; 2012-08-20 at 02:55 PM. Reason: more

  24. - Top - End - #204
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Humans, Jotun, Dwarves, Orcs...

    Pretty much anyone but halflings and gnomes, probably. Though that would be a fun character idea.

  25. - Top - End - #205
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Gnorman, may I suggest adding a new race? A race called Half-Human for all of those people out there who want to play a Half-Orc or Half-Elf. I'm uncertain as to what abilities would be granted, as it should be significantly different from the human. Any ideas?

  26. - Top - End - #206
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    You guys know that the idea of the Cambion, Jotun, Changeling, and Nephilim is that they are human with a bit of demon, giant, fey, and angel blood mixed in? So all of his personal races are "half" human?

  27. - Top - End - #207
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    I am aware of that, but some people really like half-elves.

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilarian View Post
    I am aware of that, but some people really like half-elves.
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  29. - Top - End - #209
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Yeah, I really don't get it either.

    Regardless.

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyntonian View Post
    They. WHAT.
    Fluff-wise, not mechanics-wise.
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