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  1. - Top - End - #241
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    a main problem would be bonus damage combining with metamagic especially sudden metamagic.
    i'd say:

    - no damage improving metamagic
    - no constitution damage immunity or even if it is immune to constitution he will get 2 damage per level per point (deals more damage but constitution damage is not healed that easily)
    Last edited by theDuskling; 2012-08-24 at 03:37 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #242
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Just add a clause that the ability can't be used if your immune to con damage, like the hellfire warlock.
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Kholai View Post
    Greater Archetype Power means that it will be usable at will by anyone immune to con damage. I'd go with a subclause that they take damage equal to their character level.

    You might also look to metamagic for their spells - they might give up a Con point for Widen + Half the spell's damage is now Hellfire, and ignores Fire resistance and immunity. Increase the DC by 1, increase the CL by 1, and so on, making it a separate payment for each, and allowing each one at absolute most twice or so.

    Looking forward to the combat tactics.
    As mentioned below, I will include a clause to the effect of "If you are immune to Constitution damage you may not use this ability." Actually, giving up a Con point to ignore resistance/immunity's not a bad idea either.

    The extra damage may help as a cost, but I might actually increase it. Maybe Con damage taken times spell level.

    If I were a level 6 pyromancer with 18 Constitution... let's assume a reasonable average of 26 base HP, plus 24 from Constitution, 50 total. If I boosted a fireball to 12d6, I'd take: 6 Constitution damage, bringing me down to 12, and bringing my HP down to 32. Then I take 18 regular damage (maybe this could be fire damage for extra flavor, though that would make it significantly easier to resist), leaving me with 14 hit points. Unless I'm traveling with a White Mage, a Sawbones, or someone with a wand of Lesser Restoration, I've really cut down my survivability for a while. Something to think about, I suppose.

    Anyway: I'm looking forward to writing combat tactics! It's going to be fun and will give me an excuse to play Gladius again (for those of you unfamiliar, it is a PS2/Xbox/Gamecube era tactical role-playing game, and a great source of inspiration for coming up with interesting moves for mundane fighters).

    Quote Originally Posted by theDuskling View Post
    a main problem would be bonus damage combining with metamagic especially sudden metamagic.
    Yes, I suppose that Sudden Empower or Sudden Maximize, for example, could be pretty hairy. I'll think on it. Still, that's only once a day... maybe the pyromancer also takes damage equal to the Con damage times the level increase of the metamagic? Or additional Con damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mangles View Post
    Just add a clause that the ability can't be used if your immune to con damage, like the hellfire warlock.
    The "immune to Con damage" clause is definitely a must, thank you for reminding me of it.

  4. - Top - End - #244
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnorman View Post
    Yes, I suppose that Sudden Empower or Sudden Maximize, for example, could be pretty hairy. I'll think on it. Still, that's only once a day... maybe the pyromancer also takes damage equal to the Con damage times the level increase of the metamagic? Or additional Con damage.
    I prefer more Con damage, maximizing a Xw6 spell gets you a power up by X*6 - X*3.5 = 2.5, 2.5/3.5 = ~0.70 so about 170%. So how bout one and a half times the cost?

    Empower gets 150% the effect so maybe just give it the same penalty as maximize.

  5. - Top - End - #245
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    The more I think about it, fueling your spells with Con damage should be a feat, not something unique to one archetype.

  6. - Top - End - #246
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Sounds good, maybe it should not simply give more dices but heighten the caster level. This would as well allow a natural cap
    Last edited by theDuskling; 2012-08-24 at 05:41 AM.

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by theDuskling View Post
    Sounds good, maybe it should not simply give more dices but heighten the caster level. This would as well allow a natural cap
    Technically, that would increase the damage dice of some of those spells anyway. That would keep Fireball capped at 10d6, but would also make the ability useless for some spells (Flame Arrow, for example), and a bit overly efficient for something like Scorching Ray (which gets a second ray at CL 7).

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    That was his idea, it would have an existing cap built into the system if you used CL.

  9. - Top - End - #249
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Right, gotcha. It's much, much easier to work with than my original idea.

    New pyromancer ability:

    Greater Archetype Power: When casting any spell that deals fire damage, the pyromancer may choose to have it deal hellfire damage instead. Hellfire damage is not subject to fire resistance or immunity. The pyromancer is dealt hellfire damage equal to the square of the level of the spell.

    And the new feat:

    Fuel for the Fire
    Prerequisite: Ability to cast 2nd-level spells
    Benefit: By voluntarily taking Constitution damage as part of casting a spell, you can increase the power of your spells beyond their natural limits. For each point of Constitution damage you take, your caster level for the spell increases by 1, even beyond the normal cap of your hit dice. You may not use this feat if you are somehow immune to Constitution damage.

    Something else I'm trying out: scaling feats. In an E6 framework, these may be overpowered, but it never hurts to try. Here's an altered version of the above feat:

    Magical Prodigy
    Prerequisites: Ability to cast spells, 4 ranks in Spellcraft
    Benefit: Your magical talents are better than others - you know more about magic and your spells are more powerful and harder to resist.
    CL 1: You gain a +2 bonus on Spellcraft and Use Magic Device checks.
    CL 3: You gain a +2 bonus to caster level checks when attempting to overcome spell resistance.
    CL 6: By voluntarily taking Constitution damage as part of casting a spell, you can increase the power of your spells beyond their natural limits. For each point of Constitution damage you take, your caster level for the spell increases by 1, even beyond the normal cap of your hit dice. You may not use this feat if you are somehow immune to Constitution damage.

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    In terms of game power, this is sort of fine, though they're a wand of lesser restoration away from having a 10D6 fireball at will.

    For the scaling feat itself, you've basically wrecked the power curve for every other feat - Compare this to Magical Aptitude + Spell Penetration + Overchannel. You get three feats for the price of one, which caster wouldn't pick this? It's a wash at level 1, at level 3 it's flat out better than getting Spell Penetration, at level 6 it's just plain better, and in E6 you can pick it up as one of your innumerable epic feats.

    This said, I do like the idea of scaling feats, so maybe this could be explored further?

  11. - Top - End - #251
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    well even in the rare case you got such a wand, it needs gold to refill and TIME. so it is good for after combat healing and nearly useless in combats. i do not think it is too good as long as you do not abuse the not capped caster level thing.

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Kholai View Post
    In terms of game power, this is sort of fine, though they're a wand of lesser restoration away from having a 10D6 fireball at will.

    For the scaling feat itself, you've basically wrecked the power curve for every other feat - Compare this to Magical Aptitude + Spell Penetration + Overchannel. You get three feats for the price of one, which caster wouldn't pick this? It's a wash at level 1, at level 3 it's flat out better than getting Spell Penetration, at level 6 it's just plain better, and in E6 you can pick it up as one of your innumerable epic feats.

    This said, I do like the idea of scaling feats, so maybe this could be explored further?
    It would be one of those "all-or-nothing" things. Which means I would technically have to find a way to subsume pretty much all the E6-accessible Core feats into scaled versions. And write some new ones, just for fun.

    It's about time I started on feats, honestly.

    One other potentially divisive idea: instead of archetypes being built into the class itself, what about archetype feats? They'd function in pretty much the exact same way, but it may open up the possibility of cross-class or universal archetypes.

  13. - Top - End - #253
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnorman View Post
    It would be one of those "all-or-nothing" things. Which means I would technically have to find a way to subsume pretty much all the E6-accessible Core feats into scaled versions. And write some new ones, just for fun.

    It's about time I started on feats, honestly.

    One other potentially divisive idea: instead of archetypes being built into the class itself, what about archetype feats? They'd function in pretty much the exact way, but it may open up the possibility of cross-class or universal archetypes.
    over here we use a house rule, giving "more" feats: at the first level you need 1k exp to get a feat and after that feat further 1k to level 2, same with the following levels.

    this gives the characters more individuality, while it scales down the either fast leveling or the feeling of not getting any progress.

    i m not quite sure if archetype feats would be a good thing, since it is a bit the case right now that you orientate your feats around the archetype and that is good in my opinion. There are feats to improve f.e. the rage giving 2 more str and con giving further -2 to ac. its quite a good feat for a brute but getting other archetype powers would surely be better.
    and using a brute as example i don't think it would give the game more depth mixing it up to a brute/kensai, brute/pit fighter, or brute/master at arms.

  14. - Top - End - #254
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    If you were going to do scaling feats, I'd rather you go with the Abyssal Heritor style feats instead of a automatic gain.
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by theDuskling View Post
    over here we use a house rule, giving "more" feats: at the first level you need 1k exp to get a feat and after that feat further 1k to level 2, same with the following levels.

    this gives the characters more individuality, while it scales down the either fast leveling or the feeling of not getting any progress.

    i m not quite sure if archetype feats would be a good thing, since it is a bit the case right now that you orientate your feats around the archetype and that is good in my opinion. There are feats to improve f.e. the rage giving 2 more str and con giving further -2 to ac. its quite a good feat for a brute but getting other archetype powers would surely be better.
    and using a brute as example i don't think it would give the game more depth mixing it up to a brute/kensai, brute/pit fighter, or brute/master at arms.
    Well, you'd still only get one archetype feat - every class would get a bonus Archetype feat at 1st level, archetype feats would only be selectable at the 1st level of a class. Multiclass characters would get more archetype feats but would access fewer of their abilities. It's really just a different way of arranging it.

    Necromancer (Archetype Feat)
    Prerequisite: Black Mage class
    Benefit: You gain the following abilities at the listed class level. In addition, you add the following spells to your list of spells known at the level at which you become capable of casting them.

    Bonus Spells
    1: Deathwatch, Hide from Undead
    2: Command Undead, Desecrate
    3: Animate Dead, Halt Undead

    Level 1: When casting Summon Monster, you may summon undead creatures instead. You may summon any corporeal undead whose hit dice do not exceed the spell's level (if summoning skeletons, the hit dice limit is twice the spell's level; for zombies, three times the spell's level).
    Level 3: Any zombies you command or create lose the single action only quality. In addition, when using your rebuke undead ability, you may command a number of undead whose hit dice do not exceed twice your class level.
    Level 6: You become immune to negative energy, level drain and ability drain. You gain Death Ward as your Capstone SLA.

    You could also make a cross-class archetype, like so:

    Theurge (Archetype Feat)
    Prerequisite: Any Mage class
    Benefit You gain the following benefits at the listed class level.
    Level 1: Choose one single mage class other than your own (black, blue, green, red, or white), and add that class's spell list to your list of spells known.. However, you may only cast spells from that list that are one level lower than the highest spell level you are capable of casting.
    Level 3: Choose a single archetype feat that requires you to be of either of the mage classes whose spell list you have access to. You may add that feat's bonus spells to your list of spells known at the level you become capable of casting them.
    Level 6: You may now cast spells from your secondary list normally - you are no longer restricted to spells one level lower than your highest level.


    I don't think E6 characters need more feats per se, but I remain generally unimpressed with most feats. Take Weapon Focus, for example, which sucks.

    Weapon Mastery
    Prerequisites: Proficiency with the chosen weapon
    Benefit: Choose a single weapon type (i.e., dagger or greatsword). You gain the following benefits when your BAB reaches the required level.
    BAB +1: You gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls with the chosen weapon type.
    BAB +3: You gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with the chosen weapon type.
    BAB +6: Your critical threat range with the chosen weapon type doubles. This does not stack with other effects that expand the threat range of a weapon.

    It's just one way of making your feat choices a bit more weighty, especially with the generally-crappy "+1 bonus to a narrow situation" ones. I doubt I'd be making scaling versions of metamagic feats, for example - they would primarily be for combat/skill feats. Now, as I said, in an E6 framework, feats are individually less valuable, so making them better might not necessary. But I'm going to write a few for now and decide on the final implementation later. Remember, for most of an E6 character's pre-epic career, they only have two to three feats.

    Quote Originally Posted by wadledo View Post
    If you were going to do scaling feats, I'd rather you go with the Abyssal Heritor style feats instead of a automatic gain.
    That's an interesting way of trying it. I'll have to think about it.

  16. - Top - End - #256
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Looking over the feat ideas, I like scaling feats, but I don't like the idea of archetype feats. I like the idea of picking archetypes as it is currently, and not making someone take a feat in order to get that. You could have things like your theurge feat that worked outside of the normal archetypes, but it would obviously cost them a feat. Also, I know that past level 6 you get a lot of feats in E6, but until you get there, feats are actually rather scarce, making the idea of adding feats for archetypes less attractive. The better feats though are really nice.
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Conor77 View Post
    Looking over the feat ideas, I like scaling feats, but I don't like the idea of archetype feats. I like the idea of picking archetypes as it is currently, and not making someone take a feat in order to get that. You could have things like your theurge feat that worked outside of the normal archetypes, but it would obviously cost them a feat. Also, I know that past level 6 you get a lot of feats in E6, but until you get there, feats are actually rather scarce, making the idea of adding feats for archetypes less attractive. The better feats though are really nice.
    The way I envision it, it wouldn't cost a feat, because as I said in the previous post: "every class would get a bonus Archetype feat at 1st level". It's basically just a different way of assigning archetypes. Mechanically, nothing would really change, it just struck me as a slightly more elegant way of assigning archetypes.

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    I don't think so, since you'd have to go through and mark every one of them for what classes can take them, when you can take them, you can take only one set, you can...
    It seems like more work for the system you already have, and it also seems like it would open up loopholes.

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnorman View Post
    Mechanically, nothing would really change, it just struck me as a slightly more elegant way of assigning archetypes.
    See, I find it to be much more inelegant. It was fine how it was, this just adds another level of complexity that detracts from one of your most distinctive features.
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    And so the people have spoken. Archetypes will remain as they are. I suppose it would wreak havoc on things like monster archetypes, and the reward is small/questionable enough that I'm perfectly fine with not making the work for myself.

    With that out of the way, here's the current docket:

    1. Remove initiator archetypes from all classes, moving them to the "Alternate Classes" section.

    2. Fill in missing archetypes. All combat classes and the Scoundrel will need at least one additional archetype to make up for the loss of initiator archetypes. The Hunter, Gladiator, and Scoundrel require the addition of two, as I plan on replacing the Vindicator, the Stalker, and the Umbral Scion in addition to initiator classes. The Machinist Engineer will also be scrapped and replaced with the Saboteur, who will specialize in explosive damage and grenades. The Divine Executioner needs to be finished. The Elementalist and the Chaos Child are also on the chopping block - the former because giving full casters pets is too much, the latter because polymorph polymorph polymorph.

    3. Finish organizing and editing the Inventions, using the new "Invention Type" breakdown of Armament, Gadget, Grenade, and Serum.

    4. Finish the Warlock, the Shaper, the Truenamer, the Binder, and the Martial Adept.

    5. Feats feats feats!

    6. Work on the new Combat Tactics system: here's a rough draft, for those of you who haven't seen it already.

    Combat Tactics

    Unless otherwise noted, all Tactics require a standard action to employ, and may only be used if you are equipped with a weapon from the required weapon group. The save DC of Tactics, if applicable, is equal to 10 + the level of the tactic + the user's Intelligence modifier.

    Tactics are all "known" - any class that uses Tactics may use any of them at any time, provided they have uses left (Tactics are on a per-encounter schedule) and are wielding the required weapon.

    Level 1

    Impale
    Required Weapon Group: Polearms or Spears
    You may make a melee attack as a 10' line. Use the same attack roll for all targets in that line. Roll damage separately for each opponent successfully hit.

    Lunge
    Required Weapon Group: Any
    You may make one melee attack as if your weapon had reach.

    Wide Swing
    Required Weapon: Axes or Heavy Blades
    You may make a melee attack against any opponents in three contiguous squares that you could normally reach.

    Level 2

    Backstab
    Required Weapon Group: Light Blades
    Make a melee attack roll against an opponent who is denied his Dexterity bonus to AC, or an opponent currently flanked by you. If the attack is successful, it deals double damage.

    Sand Toss
    Required Weapon: Any
    Make a melee attack roll against an adjacent opponent. If successful, the attack does no damage, but the opponent is blinded for 1d4 rounds.

    Level 3

    Flashbang Arrow
    Required Weapon Group: Bows

    Weapon Groups

    Axes: Hand axe, battleaxe, greataxe, dwarven waraxe, orc double axe, dwarven urgrosh
    Bows: Hand crossbow, heavy crossbow, light crossbow, repeating crossbow, longbow (normal and composite), shortbow (normal and composite)
    Flails and Chains: Spiked chain, whip, dire flail, heavy flail, light flail, nunchaku
    Hammers and Picks: Light pick, heavy pick, light hammer, warhammer, scythe, gnome hooked hammer, kama
    Heavy Blades: Longsword, falchion, scimitar, greatsword, bastard sword, two-bladed sword
    Light Blades: Dagger, kukri, rapier, short sword, sickle, sai, siangham
    Maces and Clubs: Club, greatclub, light mace, quarterstaff, heavy mace, morningstar
    Polearms: Glaive, guisarme, halberd, ranseur
    Spears: Javelin, lance, spear, longspear, shortspear, trident
    Thrown: Throwing axe, bolas, dagger, dart, javelin, shuriken, sling
    Unarmed: Punching dagger, gauntlet, spiked gauntlet, unarmed strike

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    An interesting thing that came out of it are those multiclassing Archetypes. There's some potential in that.

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Kholai View Post
    An interesting thing that came out of it are those multiclassing Archetypes. There's some potential in that.
    Oh, definitely. I plan on exploring that one further. If Tactics take off, it might be fun to have a Tactics-based archetype that could be taken by all combat classes.

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    found a bug.

    Greater Archetype Power: Once per day, a healer may restore a single deceased target to life as a full-round action. The target cannot have been dead for more than one round, and the healer must make physical contact in order to raise him. The target suffers no level loss from being raised, and is restored to a single hit point.

    if he needs a full round action he cannot move to the ally, means he can just have physical contact, if he had already when he died. This makes the ability very unreliable.

    Maybe give it a higher round limit / some range / an alternative ability?

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    That and restoring his ally to 1 hp is likely to end with his ally getting killed again. Maybe restore to -1 and stabilized?
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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by theDuskling View Post
    found a bug.

    Greater Archetype Power: Once per day, a healer may restore a single deceased target to life as a full-round action. The target cannot have been dead for more than one round, and the healer must make physical contact in order to raise him. The target suffers no level loss from being raised, and is restored to a single hit point.

    if he needs a full round action he cannot move to the ally, means he can just have physical contact, if he had already when he died. This makes the ability very unreliable.

    Maybe give it a higher round limit / some range / an alternative ability?
    5 ft step.

    However, this still works out, due to the wonky nature of D&D time; so long as they have not been dead longer than 1 round before they begin their action, then they're eligible targets. This means that so long as their initiative falls behind the target they're trying to revive, they can spend the turn they die moving to them, then the next turn reviving them.

    Concerning a longer limit however, what about the target's Constitution modifier?
    Technically a full round action is different from a 1-round action,

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Where did he mention a 1 round action?
    I agree with the "Target's Con modifier" solution. Or perhaps Cha or Con, since Cha is force of will in my book and that gives several of the squishie classes a good chance, but that might be too weird.

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    I think Healer's Charisma modifier is the appropriate stat to use here.

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldest View Post
    Where did he mention a 1 round action?
    I agree with the "Target's Con modifier" solution. Or perhaps Cha or Con, since Cha is force of will in my book and that gives several of the squishie classes a good chance, but that might be too weird.
    As usual, I post distracted and forget to finish my

    If it were a 1-round action, then it would resolve a round later, at which point time has actually progressed and the target has been dead longer than 1 round. A full round action resolves itself in the same turn and avoids this dilemma.

    Healer's Charisma modifier is fine by me.

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Kholai View Post
    As usual, I post distracted and forget to finish my
    If that was intentional, it was bloody great.
    Healer's Cha works.

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    Default Re: Gnorman's Complete E6 Compendium

    Sorry for the lack of updates, folks, real life's been tough lately. I'm going to try and get myself moving a bit on my to-do list soon, though.

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