The Hobbit Film... trilogy.

[Bulldog Psion]

Quote from Fangorn here:

He [Saruman] has taken up with foul folk, with orcs. Worse than that: he has been doing something with them; something dangerous. For these Isengarders are more like wicked Men. It is a mark of evil things that came in the Great Darkness that they cannot abide the Sun; but Saruman's Orcs can endure it, even if they hate it. I wonder what he has done? Are they Men he has ruined, or has he blended the races of Orcs and Men? That would be a black evil."

So, by speculation of a creature who is presumably quite knowledgeable in the ways of his world, the two most likely hypotheses were:

1. The Uruk-Hai were humans twisted into monsters by dark magic, like the Elves were when Morgoth made the first orcs;

2. There was a forced interbreeding program between slaves (since the orcs are all essentially slaves, too) -- the 'black evil' part of Treebeard's speech. Though there would presumably be "Therkla" scenarios in the long run, Saruman was out to make an army of thousands in a generation or two. The only possible scenario for that is forced interbreeding between male humans and female orcs, and female humans and male orcs. It's the most efficient if you dispense with all morality (as Saruman clearly had) and just order your slaves to mate, under threat of torture or death.

I think the movie's "pod people" explanation was to bypass something (scenario 2) that would have been very uncomfortable, even though it would have underlined how far Saruman had fallen. Treebeard clearly considered Scenario 2 to be even more villainous than Scenario 1, so it seems likely to be biological rather than magical -- "blended" means "forced reproduction" rather than "reassembled by magic", because Scenario 1 is already clearly "reassembled by magic" and is considered to be evil, but less evil than Scenario 2.

We need to recognize that Tolkien operates by a very different method of thinking and writing than the "show everything in graphic detail" that we have today. Forcible interbreeding, torture, and slaughter are all viewed as utter abominations by him, yet he would never describe them overtly in the narrative. So these oblique hints are about as close as you're going to get to an out and out description.

Similarly, I think that female orcs are implied by the fact that Elves were twisted into orcs initially. We can see during the sack of Nargothrond that Morgoth's warriors drove a huge mass of Elven women off into captivity while Glaurung held Turin helpless with his dragon-gaze. One has to assume that they were also turned into orcs with dark magic, then propagated the species with male orcs in the standard manner, since the Darkness "cannot create, it can only twist and ruin". Unless we assume an infinite supply of elves over thousands of years, the orcs had be self-propagating, meaning they had to "orc-ize" both male and female elves at the start.

[WalkingTarget]

I think the movie's "pod people" explanation was to bypass something (scenario 2) that would have been very uncomfortable, even though it would have underlined how far Saruman had fallen.

Agreed, but I think it's worth noting that "pod people" could also be a result in needing to compress all of the time frames in the film versions. The movies seem to go from the Long-Expected Party to Frodo leaving the Shire in a matter of months (if not weeks), not the 17 years that pass in the novel.

I don't know if we have a lot of detail on when Saruman's bad projects began, but if we can assume it was sometime early in the ~78 years between the Quest of Erebor and the War of the Ring, there's enough time for a breeding program to get a generation (or two) of fighters.

[hamishspence]

I wondered if Sauron simply sent Saruman a big division of his Uruk-hai the moment he "turned".

With Saruman modifying them a bit more (taller, straighter legs) and breeding some Half-Orcs- which Aragorn mentions by name in conversation with Merry about Saruman's troops.

[Zea mays]

Thank you for the quote Bulldog Psion

I think one thing to consider when pondering the nature of orcs and goblins is that Tolkien was probably not up to date on his biology (It's understandable - the man was a linguist, up to his ears in medieval literature).
For instance, in his cave beneath the Misty Mountains, Gollum eats "fish whose fathers swam in, goodness knows how many years ago and never swam out again, while their eyes grew bigger and bigger from trying to see in the blackness". That doesn't sound quite right from a Darwinian perspective.
I think there's a good chance man was thinking heredity worked the way Lamarck described it. If it does work that way in Middle Earth, than "modifying" Orcs wouldn't take too many generations.

[VanBuren]

Sounds like the Dothraki refrain "It is known." Which generally means that it has no basis in reality.

Tolkien isn't Martin, not by a long stretch. Plus, the idea that evil cannot create, but only pervert strikes enough theological chords that I'm willing to bet that it's how Tolkien actually had the universe arranged.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Tolkien isn't Martin, not by a long stretch. Plus, the idea that evil cannot create, but only pervert strikes enough theological chords that I'm willing to bet that it's how Tolkien actually had the universe arranged.

It's also a theme that is explored over and over again in the Silmarillion, which is a LOT more objective than Lord of the Rings, by virtue of being more world-building than novel, really. The LotR, we get exposition from characters who, however wise they may be, could be mistaken, where in the Silmarillion more often than not we're told outright this is how it is.

[WalkingTarget]

It's also a theme that is explored over and over again in the Silmarillion, which is a LOT more objective than Lord of the Rings, by virtue of being more world-building than novel, really. The LotR, we get exposition from characters who, however wise they may be, could be mistaken, where in the Silmarillion more often than not we're told outright this is how it is.

Kind of.

The Silmarillion is the Elves' own myths/history/what'sthedifference (i.e. Bilbo's Translations from the Elvish).

Still closer to "objective" scholarship maybe than some Hobbits' memoirs, but still in-universe. Not saying that Tolkien wasn't trying to just lay things out for readers, though.

[pendell]

Also bear in mind that the Silmarrillion is not a finished work, not a definitive "Guide to Middle Earth" by J.R.R. Tolkien. It's a digest of Tolkien's notes an ideas put in readable form by his son. Useful to see what Tolkien was thinking about, but I don't think it's necessary to include it is canonically what Tolkien wanted and believed when he wrote LOTR. Just because the Silmarrillion says that Melkor made orcs from elves in Utumno does not mean it was settled in the imagination of the author as an immutable truth.

Tolkien wasn't above retconning when the facts didn't suit the story. Case in point: The finding of the ring in the Hobbit.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Gnoman]

I think you're confusing the Silmarillion and the History of Middle Earth series there. The Silmarillion was largely completed, and C only had to do some cleaning up and editing (or, as C put it "Collecting and arranging". It was, of course, presented as a compilation of sources rather than a literal Word of God narration. The History of Middle Earth is the series which C scavanged and arranged from his father's scraps, attemptiong to show some of the evolution of the tales. More to the point at hand, the chapters regarding the Orcs are among those which C mentions his father writing earliest, but expounding upon in the other writings more than any other.

[Welf]

Similarly, I think that female orcs are implied by the fact that Elves were twisted into orcs initially. We can see during the sack of Nargothrond that Morgoth's warriors drove a huge mass of Elven women off into captivity while Glaurung held Turin helpless with his dragon-gaze. One has to assume that they were also turned into orcs with dark magic, then propagated the species with male orcs in the standard manner, since the Darkness "cannot create, it can only twist and ruin". Unless we assume an infinite supply of elves over thousands of years, the orcs had be self-propagating, meaning they had to "orc-ize" both male and female elves at the start.

When I first read the Simarillion I didn't get that this would be the fate of the captured elves. Suddenly that story is even darker.

[grimbold]

Kind of.

The Silmarillion is the Elves' own myths/history/what'sthedifference (i.e. Bilbo's Translations from the Elvish).

Still closer to "objective" scholarship maybe than some Hobbits' memoirs, but still in-universe. Not saying that Tolkien wasn't trying to just lay things out for readers, though.

and tat is why
even though it can be plotless and dull
the silmarillion is awesome

[ThisGuysAJerk]

I wanted to throw out some info on the Uruk-hai/Orc question. There's some interesting stuff in the Appendices.

In Appendix F in the section about Orcs it states that "The Orcs were first bred by the Dark Power of the North in the Elder Days" which I always took to mean that there had to have been some sort of existing genetic stock from which all Orcs descend. They weren't created out of whole cloth; they were selectively bred. I think that statement lends credence to the debased Elf theory, but one sentence is also a mighty thin peg to hang your hat on.

We're told in Appendix A that "In the last years of Denethor I, the race of Uruks, black orcs of great strength, first appeared out of Mordor and in 2475 they swept across Ithilien and took Osgiliath" which means the Uruk-hai existed for 540+ years before LOTR. That means there would have been a large existing population of Uruk-hai when Saruman needed them (Christopher Tolkien stated that men who followed Morgoth would eventually be reduced to behaving like Orcs. These men could then be bred with Orcs to produce creatures that were more human and that this is the process Saruman used. However, I think it's best if we treat Chris' writings as possibilities and not hard rules.) We're also told in LOTR that the Isengard Uruks are different than the Mordor Uruks. Mordor's have bent legs and long arms and are still affected by sunlight, although to a lesser extent than the Orcs. The Isengard Uruks are more human in appearance and are not affected by sunlight, meaning there are some pretty major physiological differences.

Here's my personal thoughts on the process, and feel free to eviscerate it if you're so inclined

We're told that Saruman uses the palantir 17-18 years before LOTR and this is when he is thoroughly corrupted by Sauron. 17-18 years isn't enough time to breed a new supped-up Uruk, even if we assume Uruks grow quickly and mature at 9 or 10 years. If Saruman started his breeding program 60 years earlier when he first walled off Orthanc, that strains credulity. A breeding program certainly would have attracted the attention of the White Council and they would have taken steps to neutralize Saruman before he became a threat. The time frame is a massive hole in the Uruk-hai breeding theory and I think Peter Jackson used the pod people device as a way around it.

[Eldan]

I'm reasonably sure that Uruk and Uruk-hai are not the same thing. Uruk is just the elven word for orc.

[Chromascope3D]

But I thought "orc" was the elvish word for goblin? Like, "Orcrist" translates to "Goblin Cleaver."

[WalkingTarget]

"Yrch" is Elvish (Sindarin at least) for "orcs"

"Uruk" is in the Black Tongue, but yeah, it just means "orc".

"Goblin" is English and probably represents the Common speech word unrelated to the Numenoean/Elvish influenced gloss "Orc".

[hamishspence]

I'm reasonably sure that Uruk and Uruk-hai are not the same thing. Uruk is just the elven word for orc.

Hai is just the word for "people".

"I am an Uruk"
"They are Uruks"
"We are the Uruk-Hai"

[Avilan the Grey]

Hai is just the word for "people".

"I am an Uruk"
"They are Uruks"
"We are the Uruk-Hai"

This makes me think that this is also what defines the Ologs. They are the first trolls smart enough to view themselves as an actual people in their own righ. The Olog-Hai.

[grimbold]

"Yrch" is Elvish (Sindarin at least) for "orcs"

"Uruk" is in the Black Tongue, but yeah, it just means "orc".

"Goblin" is English and probably represents the Common speech word unrelated to the Numenoean/Elvish influenced gloss "Orc".

this...
explains a lot

[GM.Casper]

Hm, if I had to split it in 3 movies:

History of the Lonely Mountain, show Smoug sacking the city.
Gandalf obtains the map from the dying dwarf king and escapes the Necromancer's dungeon.
Tea party at Bilbo's, trolls, Rivendel, orcs, Golum, etc.
Movie ends with the eagles rescuing them.

They stop at Beorn's place, then trek into the forest.
Meanwhile Gandalf & White Council sack Dol Guldur.
Movie ends with the dwarves climbing out of the barrels at Lake city, while the Lonely Mountain looms at the distance.

Third movie covers Smoug's death and the Battle of Five Armies.

[Welf]

I wouldn't know how to split the movie in three parts. I would let the first one end with Bilbo escaping through the door of the orc caves. That is a very good clivehanger. The end for the second movie can be the fight against Smaug; that's a good final. But I wouldn't know how to spend 90 minutes (or more knowing Peter Jackson) on the time before the battle of the 5 armies. Since the attack of the orcs came surprising, I don't see how a plot can be built up in that movie. There I see the most need for rewritting; maybe there can be the fight with Dol Goldur can happen, and we get to see the orcs active much earlier. Maybe team Evil (Sauron/the orcs) get a point of view character and more named characters so their story can be told?

[Traab]

I wouldn't know how to split the movie in three parts. I would let the first one end with Bilbo escaping through the door of the orc caves. That is a very good clivehanger. The end for the second movie can be the fight against Smaug; that's a good final. But I wouldn't know how to spend 90 minutes (or more knowing Peter Jackson) on the time before the battle of the 5 armies. Since the attack of the orcs came surprising, I don't see how a plot can be built up in that movie. There I see the most need for rewritting; maybe there can be the fight with Dol Goldur can happen, and we get to see the orcs active much earlier. Maybe team Evil (Sauron/the orcs) get a point of view character and more named characters so their story can be told?

I honestly think the resupply they get from beorn, to the flashback to dol guldir, and the trip through mirkwood, would make for a very solid film. Not sure if the proper cutoff point would be the escape from the barrels, or maybe just the aftermath of the spider fight and the capture by the elves.

[grimbold]

I honestly think the resupply they get from beorn, to the flashback to dol guldir, and the trip through mirkwood, would make for a very solid film. Not sure if the proper cutoff point would be the escape from the barrels, or maybe just the aftermath of the spider fight and the capture by the elves.

this
i feel like with some dramatization (And maybe a slightly fixed spider fight) this could go very well

[Welf]

I honestly think the resupply they get from beorn, to the flashback to dol guldir, and the trip through mirkwood, would make for a very solid film. Not sure if the proper cutoff point would be the escape from the barrels, or maybe just the aftermath of the spider fight and the capture by the elves.

I think Smaug's dead needs to be the final of a movie. He is a interesting villain, and a movie should take its time to build him up.
I change my idea where the cut off should be; for the first movie it should be the escape from the elves. Then the theme for the first movie can be Bilbo's growth into an actual hero. This happens in three acts; first opportunity throws itself at him with the ring; then he gets out of a situation with the spiders, and then he actively works out a plan with the escape from the elves. When he arrives at Laketown he is read for the dragon.
Movie two would be about Smaug; building him up as villain, with the confrontaions between him and Bilbo, and finally the attack on Laketown.
Maybe movie three can be about Bilbo's further growth from hero to strong character, and him finding wisdom. Instead of facing an outward enemy, he has to confront Thorin, a friend. But that and the battle of the 5five armies are not enough to fill a movie I think, so no idea what to do with that.

[Starbuck_II]

But that and the battle of the 5five armies are not enough to fill a movie I think, so no idea what to do with that.

No, I think there batte could be.
The battle could take a long time if you show every moment. The cartoons always fast forwarded through the battle. They felt the blow by blow wasn't needed (Helm's Deep in LotR showed a blow by blow as a example of showing).

[Welf]

No, I think there batte could be.
The battle could take a long time if you show every moment. The cartoons always fast forwarded through the battle. They felt the blow by blow wasn't needed (Helm's Deep in LotR showed a blow by blow as a example of showing).

True, but the battle was the final point of the movie. The battle meant something, and we saw both sides from the beginning. We saw the good guys being weak, learning to like them, and saw the bad guys growing in strength, and what they would do when they win. That created a conflict, that found its solution in the battle. I don't see how that can happen before the battle of the 5 armies. There's conflict between the man, elves and dwarfs, but that conflict isn't solved between them, but by ganging up against the orcs and Thorin dieing.

[dehro]

trouble with trying to figure out how the movies will be divided is that we have 0 idea about what's going to be in the third one... I am under the impression that the first two are kind of self sufficient because that's the direction they'd been working in for years..which means tha the plot for the Hobbit should be exhausted in them.. and that the third one is.. who knows? filler + battle against the necromancer + other Silmarillion stuff maybe?

[Muz]

trouble with trying to figure out how the movies will be divided is that we have 0 idea about what's going to be in the third one... I am under the impression that the first two are kind of self sufficient because that's the direction they'd been working in for years..which means tha the plot for the Hobbit should be exhausted in them.. and that the third one is.. who knows? filler + battle against the necromancer + other Silmarillion stuff maybe?

I don't think it's a matter of tacking on extra stuff at the end so much as recutting what they already have, though.

[dehro]

I don't think it's a matter of tacking on extra stuff at the end so much as recutting what they already have, though.

I'm kinda hoping that to be the case..however..PJ knew what he was doing very well when he tackled the LOTR to filmify it, managing to not only shoot 3 movies at the same time but also bring modifications on the fly and being mostly on top of things... could he really have so grossly miscalculated his planning with regards to 2 movies..no, scrap that..we've been shooting too much stuff, let's make it 3 instead?
I'm thinking this should have become apparent fairly early in the process of shooting/production.. the very late timing of the announcement that after all there are going to be 3 movies is.. odd.

[Zea mays]

So, a new trailer.
http://www.facebook.com/TheHobbitMovie.

They are expanding on Gandalf's side adventure. I guess we'll see some of the buildup for the battle with the necromancer in this movie.

Also, the dwarf do seem like quite a party.

[Rake21]

So, a new trailer.
http://www.facebook.com/TheHobbitMovie.

They are expanding on Gandalf's side adventure. I guess we'll see some of the buildup for the battle with the necromancer in this movie.

Also, the dwarf do seem like quite a party.

Huh, up until now I thought this was about a Dwarven a Capella group... I'm a little disappointed now.


All kidding aside, it looks pretty good. I'm really looking forward to it.