The Hobbit Film... trilogy.

[mangosta71]

You'd be amazed how many tourists wander around third world hellholes without bodyguards or weapons. I had some friends at church who toddled off to an orphanage in Haiti for an aid mission and there wasn't a weapon among 'em. Their self defense consisted of sticking to known areas and not going places where they weren't welcome. Since we got as many back as went out, it seems to work.

Yes, they were going there to build houses and distribute supplies and such. The point of the dwarves' expedition was to KILL A FRAKKING DRAGON. I guess they were hoping that Smaug would start with the least important members of the group and choke to death before he got to Thorin.

[Hopeless]

Yes, they were going there to build houses and distribute supplies and such. The point of the dwarves' expedition was to KILL A FRAKKING DRAGON. I guess they were hoping that Smaug would start with the least important members of the group and choke to death before he got to Thorin.

Or they seriously thought Smaug was either already dead or they could somehow get Smaug to collapse the cavern he was sleeping in as he tried to catch the "thief" and kill himself in the process?
So exactly which part was Thorin involved in the planning process?
I don't think he was unless they made him think they had a plan but it involed the wizard blowing up the dragon, perhaps?

[pendell]

Yes, they were going there to build houses and distribute supplies and such. The point of the dwarves' expedition was to KILL A FRAKKING DRAGON. I guess they were hoping that Smaug would start with the least important members of the group and choke to death before he got to Thorin.

I thought the point of the expedition was to *burgle* the dragon. Didn't they talk about that? Gandalf mentioned at the party that to kill the dragon they'd need a warrior, and he couldn't find one. So they settled on burglary instead. A stupidly insane plan. It should have been just Thorin, Balin, Fili and Kili if the object was to infiltrate the mountain. Only bring Bombur along if he's able to eat the dragon.

Actually, that's probably something they left out. How the dwarves REALLY escaped the mountain.

Goblins: Ah ha, stupid dwarves!
Bombur: Oh, I'm so HUNGRY ... NOM NOM NOM NOM NOM *eats a goblin, then eats another, pausing only to spit out the bones*

*Goblins flee*

Maybe Bombur was actually Cthulthu in disguise. Yeah, that's the ticket.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[snoopy13a]

I thought the point of the expedition was to *burgle* the dragon. Didn't they talk about that? Gandalf mentioned at the party that to kill the dragon they'd need a warrior, and he couldn't find one. So they settled on burglary instead. A stupidly insane plan. It should have been just Thorin, Balin, Fili and Kili if the object was to infiltrate the mountain. Only bring Bombur along if he's able to eat the dragon.

Actually, that's probably something they left out. How the dwarves REALLY escaped the mountain.

Goblins: Ah ha, stupid dwarves!
Bombur: Oh, I'm so HUNGRY ... NOM NOM NOM NOM NOM *eats a goblin, then eats another, pausing only to spit out the bones*

*Goblins flee*

Maybe Bombur was actually Cthulthu in disguise. Yeah, that's the ticket.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

It wasn't that insane. Their inept plan managed to "outsource" Smaug's killing to Bard the Bowman. Sure, Lake-town was destroyed and many innocents died, but they weren't dwarves, were they? Not only that, but the dwarves almost managed to avoid paying out any gold. If Dain would have gotten there a bit sooner, then the dwarves would have come out on top--and the men would have been the big losers.

[Karoht]

I thought the point of the expedition was to *burgle* the dragon. Didn't they talk about that? Gandalf mentioned at the party that to kill the dragon they'd need a warrior, and he couldn't find one. So they settled on burglary instead. A stupidly insane plan. It should have been just Thorin, Balin, Fili and Kili if the object was to infiltrate the mountain. Only bring Bombur along if he's able to eat the dragon.

Actually, that's probably something they left out. How the dwarves REALLY escaped the mountain.

Goblins: Ah ha, stupid dwarves!
Bombur: Oh, I'm so HUNGRY ... NOM NOM NOM NOM NOM *eats a goblin, then eats another, pausing only to spit out the bones*

*Goblins flee*

Maybe Bombur was actually Cthulthu in disguise. Yeah, that's the ticket.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

You realize you are only serving to make this film sound more awesome by the minute.

[grimbold]

You realize you are only serving to make this film sound more awesome by the minute.

i think that was his goal :P

[The_Snark]

Yes, they were going there to build houses and distribute supplies and such. The point of the dwarves' expedition was to KILL A FRAKKING DRAGON. I guess they were hoping that Smaug would start with the least important members of the group and choke to death before he got to Thorin.

I'll be the first to admit that their plan* for dealing with Smaug was not very well thought out, but let's face it: weapons wouldn't have done them much good either. Smaug singlehandedly destroyed Dale and drove off every dwarf in Erebor. As far as they're concerned, fighting the dragon is a losing proposition.

*Or lack thereof

[Muz]

Keep in mind also that Tolkien was telling a children's story originally, and--despite how foolish it would actually be, were we in the dwarves' shoes, to not carry weapons--he wanted to handle the assorted encounters with a bit of whimsy and such rather than just have the dwarves pull axes and have a bloody melee with the trolls, etc.

Also (and correct me if I'm wrong here, since I'm no Tolkien scholar), wasn't the man something of a pacifist? I can see him not wanting to teach his children to tackle problems by immediately going for a weapon, so he didn't make axes and such the centerpiece of most of the dwarves' efforts.

Or maybe weapons are just really expensive and coal mining didn't pay too well, so they went with spending their coin on ponies, and food. ...And instruments. And caps. Oh, and the processing fees for the Shire travel visas. Those things ain't cheap, ya know!

[VanBuren]

Why waste money on weapons? They weren't going to be any good against Smaug anyway. They were probably just expecting Gandalf to handle the first few mobs until they gained a few levels and some nice loot.

Still, not the worst planning I've ever seen for a raid.

[SmartAlec]

Also (and correct me if I'm wrong here, since I'm no Tolkien scholar), wasn't the man something of a pacifist?

I don't think Tolkien was a genuine pacifist. He didn't oppose his son fighting in WW2, for example. He was a strict Catholic and war fought 'right' in the name of what's right was a part of Catholic dogma in mid-20th century.

At the same time, the man had seen a lot of grim stuff in WW1 and knew exactly how ugly war could get. There's a strong sentiment in his stuff, especially in the Lord of the Rings, that armed conflict is a messy thing that can help bring about a resolution - but it's not the resolution itself, and a resolution can't come from war alone.

[dehro]

I don't think Tolkien was a genuine pacifist. He didn't oppose his son fighting in WW2, for example. He was a strict Catholic and war fought 'right' in the name of what's right was a part of Catholic dogma in mid-20th century.

At the same time, the man had seen a lot of grim stuff in WW1 and knew exactly how ugly war could get. There's a strong sentiment in his stuff, especially in the Lord of the Rings, that armed conflict is a messy thing that can help bring about a resolution - but it's not the resolution itself, and a resolution can't come from war alone.

I think he was as much of a pacifist as the times and..well.. his personal history allowed for.
a war veteran who had been badly shaken in romantic notion of the glory of war, having faced the horror of the trenches; this however didn't diminish his sense of duty and I would think that his son going to war would fall under that.. he wouldn't oppose it but see it as his duty.
he may put his sentiments in his writing, but that's as far as a man of his breeding and generation would go.

[Muz]

By "pacifist" I suppose I meant someone with a healthy respect for the horrors of war and combat. (I got lazy in my word choice.)

[WalkingTarget]

Wow, an actual conversation where Bombadil is pertinent that wasn't about him to begin with.

In my reading of LotR (with some circumstantial evidence from the Letters), Tom represents, in part, pacifism.

Something laudable, and something that it would be nice if we could all operate under, but ultimately something that cannot exist without others who are willing to fight to protect it (that is, Tom stands apart and takes no action regarding the Ring - and it has no power over him - but his approach cannot stand in the face of Sauron's aggression; without action by others there will be no place for Tom in Middle-earth).

At least, that reading is where I peg Tolkien's views on things. Of course, I have no special knowledge of the man beyond what I've read, so I could be wrong.

[grimbold]

thats how i viewed it

if you take a LOTR=WWII analogy then the Old Forest (where tom lives) could very well be switzerland... a pacifist place where the evil is kept out by huge guns (or in bombadils case, Huorns, at least i THINK they're huorns)

[Aotrs Commander]

thats how i viewed it

if you take a LOTR=WWII analogy then the Old Forest (where tom lives) could very well be switzerland... a pacifist place where the evil is kept out by huge guns (or in bombadils case, Huorns, at least i THINK they're huorns)

Just as general note with this line of thinking, that Tolkien was absolutely adamant on the record that LotR was not allogorical.

It is neither allegorical nor topical.... I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence.

[Indeed It Is]

For what is it worth I believe Peter Jackson and friends only have film rights to the Hobbit and the LoTR trilogy. All other works by Tolkien and their material cannot be included... Now, how far they can stretch those rights remains to be seen..

[Traab]

From what I remember of the story, Thorin and company virtually got recruited by gandalf, and not the other way around. Gandalf got them together, gandalf brought them to the shire, forced them to take bilbo, only at elronds house did he show off the fact that he had a map of the mountain with a secret entrance marked on it, etc etc etc. I get the feeling thorin and company werent even involved in the decision making for the most part. It was closer to, "Yo thorin, my names gandalf, call me G-Money. Get your peeps together, we are gonna mess up that dragon that dissed your clan 100 years ago. Ill explain how later."

Up until the last homely house, there was absolutely no plan other than "We are going to reclaim our old family home." Even then all they had was a secret door that blibo was expected to find and figure out how to open. They never once discussed what they would do when they found smaug, they never even considered that it wasnt likely they could fit their dwarven treasure hoard into a single sack. The fact that smaug wiped out 99% of their entire dwarven clan when he was WAY younger and weaker than he would be now wasnt even thought about. They showed all the strategic thinking and planning expertise of a group of 6 year olds.

Lack of weaponry was the least of their issues. And dont tell me they relied on gandalf to solve all their problems, gandalf specifically told them he wouldnt be with them for most of the journey. Hell, I think he intended to leave them before they finished crossing the damn misty mountains but couldnt just leave until he had them resupplied again.

[hamishspence]

From what I remember of the story, Thorin and company virtually got recruited by gandalf, and not the other way around. Gandalf got them together, gandalf brought them to the shire, forced them to take bilbo, only at elronds house did he show off the fact that he had a map of the mountain with a secret entrance marked on it, etc etc etc. I get the feeling thorin and company werent even involved in the decision making for the most part. It was closer to, "Yo thorin, my names gandalf, call me G-Money. Get your peeps together, we are gonna mess up that dragon that dissed your clan 100 years ago. Ill explain how later."

Unfinished Tales (and one special edition version of The Hobbit) has the story of how Gandalf chose Bilbo, the difficulties he had convincing Thorin to accept Bilbo as a member of the party, and so forth. He is very much the prime mover of the quest.

[VanBuren]

Just as general note with this line of thinking, that Tolkien was absolutely adamant on the record that LotR was not allogorical.

Applicability, on the other hand was another thing entirely.

[Gnoman]

Exactly. He ever had a problem with using Sauron as an example of the dangers of autocracy, or the Ring as a cautionary tale against nuclear weapons. It was claiming that Sauron was Stalin/Hitler or that the Ring WAS a nuclear bomb that he despised.

[Muz]

From what I remember of the story, Thorin and company virtually got recruited by gandalf, and not the other way around. Gandalf got them together, gandalf brought them to the shire, forced them to take bilbo, only at elronds house did he show off the fact that he had a map of the mountain with a secret entrance marked on it, etc etc etc. I get the feeling thorin and company werent even involved in the decision making for the most part. It was closer to, "Yo thorin, my names gandalf, call me G-Money. Get your peeps together, we are gonna mess up that dragon that dissed your clan 100 years ago. Ill explain how later."

Gandalf showed them the map at Bag End, and was actually quite annoyed to see that he didn't see the moon runes until Elrond spotted them. Of course, this is Gandalf, so maybe he was just playing dumb.

[Traab]

Ah oops, I thought he had held onto the map until elronds. I knew the moon letters were spotted there, I just figured that was when the map got brought out for the first time. Its been a long time since I read the book.

[Aotrs Commander]

Exactly. He ever had a problem with using Sauron as an example of the dangers of autocracy, or the Ring as a cautionary tale against nuclear weapons. It was claiming that Sauron was Stalin/Hitler or that the Ring WAS a nuclear bomb that he despised.

Fair enough.

Gandalf showed them the map at Bag End, and was actually quite annoyed to see that he didn't see the moon runes until Elrond spotted them. Of course, this is Gandalf, so maybe he was just playing dumb.

Even Gandalf could roll open-ended low on his perception check...

(Heck, only Morgoth was immune to fumbling with the Iron Crown with the simirils in it, which one might suspect just might be the single most powerful bonus of that item...)

What? Middle-Earth is totally Rolemaster, and I have all the numerous source books to prove it...

[Chromascope3D]

Why waste money on weapons? They weren't going to be any good against Smaug anyway. They were probably just expecting Gandalf to handle the first few mobs until they gained a few levels and some nice loot.

Still, not the worst planning I've ever seen for a raid.

"Alright, let's do this! BILBOOOOOOOO BAAAAAAGGINS!"

[grimbold]

Applicability, on the other hand was another thing entirely.

exactly
his work was influenced by his life experience

i wasn't intending to make it look like i thought LOTR was wholly allegorical

[t209]

How many of you think that Thorin Oakenshield is a jerk? I mean he's greedy, didn't care about Bilbo until Thorin's death, and refuse to pay Laketown survivors their compensation (well, Bilbo started a war between dwarfs and human-elves alliance). Except he go all badass on goblins during three army battle.

[Gnoman]

He's proud, and doesn't exactly trust the random, barely-competant little fat dude that the wizard saddled him with. That's to be expected. His refusal to pay is a flaw in his race. Gold has a powerful hold over the hearts of all dwarves, and dragon-gold is suggested to inspire powerful greed in all creatures.

YOu have one thing wrong. Bilbo didn't start the almost-war. Thorin & Company's refusal to cooperate with the admittedly presumptious demands of the elves, and the more justified (but arrogantly demanded) requests of the Lake-Men was the source of the conflict. All Bilbo tried to do was to prevent the war by bribery.

[MLai]

I was going to say, the elves and men had zero claim to Thorin's ancestral wealth. Thorin had 100% legal right, and barely any moral obligation. He didn't set the dragon onto the lake town, nor did he ever plan to, nor is the dragon a product of the dwarven kingdom, nor did any elves or men help the dwarves when the dragon was busy wiping them out.

Any moral empathy he might have had for the men, vanished the moment they started acting like *****.

[Welf]

The dwarfs did cause the dragon attack on lake town; they sent Bilbo in to steal something. And Bilbo, who worked for them, give Smaug the hint that they got help from lake town. I call that negligence.
And Thorin and company got help at lake town, new inventory and were treated as guests of honour for quite a time. Without that help they wouldn't even got to the mountain and got the chance to steal from Smaug. Not to mention that it were the fighters from lake town who defeated Smaug, saving the treasure and their lives.
And finally, quite some part of the treasure was stolen from old Dale.
So Thorin did have legal and moral reason to share part of the treasure.

[snoopy13a]

I was going to say, the elves and men had zero claim to Thorin's ancestral wealth. Thorin had 100% legal right, and barely any moral obligation. He didn't set the dragon onto the lake town, nor did he ever plan to, nor is the dragon a product of the dwarven kingdom, nor did any elves or men help the dwarves when the dragon was busy wiping them out.

Any moral empathy he might have had for the men, vanished the moment they started acting like *****.

1) Some of Smaug's treasure was stolen from the men of Dale--the ancestors of some of the Lake-men

2) The men fed, clothed, and supplied the Dwarves free of charge--granted, Thorin promised to repay that.

3) The men suffered from Smaug just as much as the dwarves did. Like the dwarves, Smaug destroyed their town, killed their citizens, and forced them from their homes.

4) The men, most specifically Bard the Bowman, killed Smaug

5) Smaug destroyed Lake-town.

6) Smaug killed about 1/4 of the people, either directly or indirectly, of Lake-town. These weren't all warriors but also women and children.

7) The men would have starved without the help of the Wood-elves.

8) Smaug would not have attacked Lake-town if Bilbo hadn't "stolen" (he didn't really steal it as it truly belonged to the dwarves) the cup.

All Bard wanted was 1/12 of the gold--some of it which belonged to his people anyway. This was to rebuild Lake-town and to compensate their friends--the wood-elves--who helped them. The Lake-men were the ones who actually killed Smaug and suffered greatly from it. Without their sacrifice, Thorin would have gotten nothing and starved to death in a cave or end up eaten by Smaug. The end result is that the men receive about 1/14th of the gold--Bilbo's share.

Anyway, Bilbo and the ravens thought Bard's request was reasonable.