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    BlackDragon

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    Default Final Fantasy VII d20 (version 1.12) PEACH PLEASE!!!!!

    Hi Everyone,

    I've decided to start a new thread as the other one was getting too messy. however, below you will find the links to the more recent updated Final Fantasy VII d20 Roleplaying Game.

    BELOW ARE LINKS TO VERSION 1.16
    FF7 - Player's Handbook

    FF7 - Gamemaster's Guide

    Character Sheet

    Please PEACH as i need others' opinion and feedback on the system if i'm ever to finish it.

    Thanks
    Last edited by Marc_In_Da_Room; 2012-11-17 at 06:35 PM.

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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Final Fantasy VII d20 (version 1.12) PEACH PLEASE!!!!!

    Is there any comments on the system?

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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Final Fantasy VII d20 (version 1.12) PEACH PLEASE!!!!!

    Just so everybody knows, the Monster Manual is nearly finished and i will be able to post a download link for review soon

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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Final Fantasy VII d20 (version 1.12) PEACH PLEASE!!!!!

    Is there any feedback on the system? Any comments and thoughts are greatly appreciated.

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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Final Fantasy VII d20 (version 1.12) PEACH PLEASE!!!!!

    Any feedback on the book?

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    Default Re: Final Fantasy VII d20 (version 1.12) PEACH PLEASE!!!!!

    I posted this in the test play forum, but figured I'd post them here so others can comment on if they agree/disagree. Plus hopefully it'll spur some conversation.



    Well the wisdom problem is just that at the moment wisdom is a very powerful stat and charisma is almost useless. I'd recommend making something wisdom does into something charisma related. Mainly because right now:

    Wisdom
    -Will defense (important)
    -Number of extraordinary powers (important for SOLDIERS)
    -Spellcasting (important)
    -Perception (important)
    -Treat Injury
    -Survival

    Charisma
    -Gather Information
    -Deception
    -Persuasion (useful)

    It's your system and play testing will find if correct, but right now charisma seems almost useless. Perhaps making spellcasting based on charisma might help, but then you'd probably want to alter the Cetra stats which means multiple changes. Another option would be finding another use for charisma so that people will actually want to take it. Moving Extraordinary abilities to charisma is the easiest option, but also has the least impact. Right now though it seems (since based on Saga system) that Spellcasting=Use the Force, but wisdom based now.

    (In regards to a discussion on if spellcasting should be charisma based to make wisdom not such a powerful stat)




    LONG thing of suggestions, pros and cons, etc
    Spoiler
    Show

    ----
    Sorry for complex nature, but the Wis/Cha change is complex (thus why I said it's probably more accurate, but also a complex change). On one hand Saga only had one type of casting (use the force, thus the Wis/Cha split) while this system has Magic/Materia and the Extraordinary abilities.

    Splitting it does add the wis/cha confusion since it means that SOLDIER gets benefit from Charisma (currently everything he uses is Wisdom based), but a regular mage gets a bit mixed up, because he gets the opposite (becomes Cha based with wisdom good for skills and defenses since they don't get extraordinary abilities).

    In Saga (sister system, sorry I keep mentioning it but it helps to look at a current system that it is based off of to check for balance), the "Use the Force/Spellcasting" stat was Charisma, but it powered the Force Powers/Extraordinary abilities.

    In this system, spellcasting has its own powers. I'm trying to think of the best way to balance it at the moment without too many changes (a complete wis to cha change would make races and feats and talents get confusing).

    Here is an idea (brainstorm/bounce ideas back because no single person will be able to come up with a perfect idea)

    Keeping spellcasting as Wisdom wouldn't be AS bad if extraordinary powers were influenced by something else, the downside to this is it would require an extra skill or something to be added.

    I think the big problem with the reason for Wis vs Cha is because extraordinary abilities use spellcasting which makes the skill even more useful thus making the stat more useful. Perhaps a skill that was Extraordinary Abilities and making that Cha related might help while not completely redoing the current system other than to alter how Extraordinary abilities work.

    Just because a SOLDIER can do lots of sword tricks and extraordinary things doesn't mean they are a magic expert.

    Now to brainstorm what that would do is it would mean that SOLDIERS would function similar to Jedi. Their Extraordinary abilities would make them powerful and each one would be diverse, but all stats are useful for different reasons. IE: Str, Dex, Con=Martial sword fighter type. Int=skills, Wis+Cha=Extraordinary abilities. (Similar to Jedi the "Extraordinary" skill whatever it is would be Cha, while you keep the number of powers learned as Wis). Now if a SOLDIER wanted to be a caster he can still keep Wisdom high for skills. But it prevents one SOLDIER from pumping just wisdom and getting spellcasting, lots of extraordinary abilities, and high will saves, because if he does his extraordinary abilities or physical attacks (Str or Cha) will be weaker. Thus dividing it out.

    ----------
    (Just tossing numbers around here)
    CURRENT SYSTEM (Wis is spellcasting, Spellcasting powers extraordinary abilities)

    A SOLDIER could take one feat (Materia training: Magic) and with one stat would control how many extraordinary powers he gets, how strong his materia is, and how strong his powers are. In addition he'd have good will saves and useful skills. He could pump Wisdom (primary), and then pick between the other physical skills as the next highest (thus dumping cha and int). He ends up being a physical and mental powerhouse.

    A mage at the moment can pump one stat, but it leaves him with just the strength of his materia (same with every class, but he focuses on it). Personally, it looks like a mage is a SAD class, but it focuses on only one aspect. Thus Wisdom for them is the equivalent of a Str for a melee brute, dex for ranged, etc. I don't think this is a problem, but feel free to comment.


    WITH AN EXTRA SKILL
    A SOLDIER is capable of doing it all, but he needs to pick where to put his stats. If he pumps strength he can be a melee brute, dex a dodge monkey/ranged fighter, Wisdom he gets spellcasting, Charisma he gets powerful extraordinary abilities. It ends up becoming a MAD class, but only if a player focuses on everything. By focusing, a SOLDIER is still strong, but he needs at least two stats per focus (Wis+Cha for super powers, Str+Con/Dex for physical powers, Dex+Con for ranged, etc).

    A Mage isn't touched at all so scrolling up will reveal that. Regular melee and ranged people aren't touched at all. In general most classes stay the same.

    MAKING SPELLCASTING CHARISMA BASED
    A SOLDIER is hit exactly as he would be in the Extra skill category so scroll up for what this would do.

    A Mage swaps Wisdom for Charisma. He pumps Charisma instead of Wisdom, and hits up Wisdom just for the saves. In fact a low Wisdom would benefit the mage in this because he can limit break more often. In general it is a decent fix, but it makes Mage Cha focused not Wisdom focused (Mages are sorcerers instead of clerics).

    Regular people are again mostly uneffected. Just means if they want to cast they get higher charisma. It does force others to spread from either "high will saves" "high perception" vs "high spellcasting" "high persuasion".

    Really the only bad thing about this is that it means you might want to look at races again (certain magic attuned races were +wis, certain bad at magic races were -wis). In general it is different than option two, but not better or worse.
    ----------------

    So with those numbers tossed out it depends on your goal. I think either making spellcasting charisma based OR adding a skill that powers extraordinary abilities (that is charisma based) will help. But each one has pros and cons that I listed.

    Sorry this is so long >.> Trying to help as much as possible.


    --------------
    On to new stuff, it was brought up, but not finalized. To get materia slots it looks like (unless misreading) you need armor and weapons. Thus the weapon slot, armor slot. Unless you can use materia without equipping it this means that anyone without light armor proficiency will be unable to use materia.

    Unless there is going to be an alteration or a rule that lets mages use clothing for their armor slot then it might be necessary to give everyone armor proficiency.

    The downside to this is it means every player (who uses magic) HAS to buy both armor and a weapon in addition to materia so mages might need an increase in money.

    I can't comment on many other classes because mage is the one I'm currently testing.

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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Final Fantasy VII d20 (version 1.12) PEACH PLEASE!!!!!

    Thanks Major . I've added Armour proficiency (light) to the list of Starting Feats for Mages. Also, you don't have to have both weapons and armour equipped to equip materia, just one or the other will do. however if you did have both equipped, you would be able to equip more materia than someone who only has weapons equipped (or armour, if your character wants to be a fist-fighting brute )

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    Default Re: Final Fantasy VII d20 (version 1.12) PEACH PLEASE!!!!!

    I realize you don't NEED both, but isn't it a bit silly that a mage would have less slots because they don't wear armor. I'll note Aerith wore normal clothes and didn't have a materia problem :P

    Might be better just to have clothes count as armor for sake of equipping materia.

    At moment a mage needs as many materia equip slots as possible (otherwise why be a mage?)

    However, SAGA was designed so that armor was only useful for soldiers.

    By giving the mage "Light Armor Proficiency" (realized it might be better to not give it to them, will list why in a moment), the mage is in worse shape at any level above 5 max.

    Having armor causes your level bonus to reflex to be replaced by the armor bonus. While at level one it is a nice increase, at higher levels the mage is forced to strip their armor or it holds them back unless they multiclass soldier to grab armored defense.

    What this does is forces a pure mage to have less magic than a soldier just to have a materia slot.

    Example:
    Level 1 Mage:
    -Equips bullet-proof vest (+2 reflex) this is a +1 reflex which is nice, and a +1 materia slot. The downside however is that upon reaching level 3...

    Level 3 Mage:
    -The vest has a +2 that overrides their +3. While this is a small change it forces the mage to either lose stat bonuses or lose materia slots.

    Honestly, not wearing armor already has trade-offs, losing your own magic is a bit...off.

    Perhaps just an armor that is a simple "Clothes" thus giving them materia slots, but not forcing them to cross-class soldier or get weakened. Alternatively let arm pieces/bangles count as armor OR a weapon (2).


    *Reason that the Armor proficiency ends up being worse for a mage:
    -You CAN wear armor without the armor proficiency. It ends up hurting you (-2 to skills that have an ACP), but it also doesn't give the bonuses, thus wearing the armor gives you an extra slot without overriding your defenses. I'm still against this because I don't think it is right that a soldier or someone wearing heavy armor has more versatile magic than a mage. Thus my suggestion for "clothes" being a stat-less piece of armor. Thus they don't get bonuses, damage threshold increases, upgrade slots, etc, but they do get a materia slot.

    Or even a bonus feat that rather than armor proficiency allows them to do something like in the movie where the materia went directly into the skin.

    This is a crappy rushed rough draft, so fix it however you like:

    "Magically Attuned Body"
    Prerequisites: Mage (or if you want to open this up to anyone: "Materia Training")
    "You body is used to magic coursing through it, because of this you can insert materia directly into your body."
    Benefit: Your body counts as armor for the purpose of equipping materia. IE: A first level character with this feat can equip one materia into their weapon and one into their body. This does not allow you to equip both your body and armor, you must select one location.
    Special: Normally you need to wear armor in order to equip to the armor slot.
    Last edited by Major; 2012-09-24 at 09:48 PM.

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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Final Fantasy VII d20 (version 1.12) PEACH PLEASE!!!!!

    Forgot to note, the penalize by being forced to wear armor is even worse when you remember that equipping materia already lowers your reflex defense.

    You'd have mages with low reflex because of wearing armor and because of materia lowering it. Not saying they should be dodge monkeys, but a high level mage shouldn't be getting wacked around by every level 1 enemy due to have hardly any reflex (imo).
    Last edited by Major; 2012-09-24 at 09:54 PM.

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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Final Fantasy VII d20 (version 1.12) PEACH PLEASE!!!!!

    Good points all round. i like the feat, and i will add it to the Character Profiler - Core Rulebook III (yes, another one, but there will NOT be a CR IV).

    Also, i'll change the Arm Pieces to count as armour and that characters can either wear an arm piece or wear a piece of armour, they can't wear both. Arm Pieces will not need an Armour Proficiency feat for characters to wear them.

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    Default Re: Final Fantasy VII d20 (version 1.12) PEACH PLEASE!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc_In_Da_Room View Post
    Good points all round. i like the feat, and i will add it to the Character Profiler - Core Rulebook III (yes, another one, but there will NOT be a CR IV).

    Also, i'll change the Arm Pieces to count as armour and that characters can either wear an arm piece or wear a piece of armour, they can't wear both. Arm Pieces will not need an Armour Proficiency feat for characters to wear them.
    That works too. Arm Pieces being armor means that a person picks one of two things
    1) Armor for more fortitude, upgrading (if that exist like it does in saga), and reflex if you are a soldier.
    2) Arm Pieces which provide the ability to customize, but don't give actual stat boost without paying for them.

    Still if you do the arm pieces you won't necessarily need the feat. The feat replaces the need to change arm pieces.

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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Final Fantasy VII d20 (version 1.12) PEACH PLEASE!!!!!

    While we are discussing Arm Pieces, i just like to give a shout out to Spyder_Cel who is on these forums, and who created the mechanics for arm pieces so full credit were it is due.

    Thanks Spyer_Cel

    I'm definetly going with the slight change with Arm Pieces so i won't bother with the feat then, sorry Major.

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    Default Re: Final Fantasy VII d20 (version 1.12) PEACH PLEASE!!!!!

    No worries, I'm trying to offer suggested changes. Arm Pieces or the feat was a suggestion (trying to give you as many possible options as possible so you can pick what you ultimately want in the system).

    On a side note, does that mean that Arm Pieces will be part of armor and not part of weapon 2?

    Also for a "weapon 2" does that weapon have to be in use or just on your person?

    Example:

    Random Mage Billy is level 5. He is allowed to equip one materia in "Weapon 1" another in "Weapon 2" and a third in "Armor".

    He purchases an extra rod thus giving him:
    -Rod (fire)
    -Rod (ice)
    -Bronze Armlet (thunder)

    To get all three materia does he need to...
    a) Hold both rods (dual wielding)
    b) Have both rods on his person
    c) Switch rods to do fire or ice

    I don't think it will really matter since unless you attack with both there are no dual weapon penalties, but figured I'd ask just to clarify.

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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Final Fantasy VII d20 (version 1.12) PEACH PLEASE!!!!!

    You would need to weild both weapons in order to use equipped materia from both.

    The rule about "weapon 2" in Arm pieces will be replaced with the rule on armour.

    also, if you dual wield, you get a -10 penalty on the second weapon's attack roll. there is, however, feats that can reduce this penalty (dual weapon mastery )

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    Default Re: Final Fantasy VII d20 (version 1.12) PEACH PLEASE!!!!!

    -10 on both actually unless final fantasy changed it. Regardless its only if you attack with both. So I'll bet most mages with just hold two rods and rarely throw a physical attack to worry about penalties :P

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    Default Re: Final Fantasy VII d20 (version 1.12) PEACH PLEASE!!!!!

    So...I said I would do some test with a Human Soldier 3rd class in the playtest thread and hear they are.

    You might want to revisit the class, because it is a BIT overpowered (even with the change to make spellcasting charisma).

    The first build is with the current system, the second build shows the changes if charisma was required.

    I'm thinking the biggest problem comes with two things:
    1) Mako Infusion giving a possible +3 to all defenses
    2) SOLDIER 3rd class getting +2 to all defenses while most classes only get +1

    This gives the soldier +5 to EVERY defense making him tanky in addition to the sheer power and damage he does. The problem is the class has the most HP, a lot of damage, and a lot of defense. Thus making a hard hitting, hard to hit, tanky class that does a lot of damage.

    I even took the liberty of skipping and not taking a talent and the class is powerful. The fact that it does that good while not needing a talent or a limit break is scary.

    Spoiler
    Show

    Name: God
    Race: Human (Clone)
    Class: SOLDIER 3rd Class (Aka God)
    Level: 1
    Gil: 0
    HP: 37
    MP: 14

    Str: 20 (+5)
    Dex: 10 (+0)
    Con: 12 (+1)
    Int: 12 (+1)
    Wis: 16 (+3)
    Cha: 8 (-1)

    Fort: 20 (+1 level, +1 con, +2 class, +3 mako infusion, +3 armor)
    Ref: 21 (+6 armor, +2 class, +3 mako)
    Will: 20 (+1 level, +3 wis, +2 class, +3 mako, +1 mindsource)
    Magic: 17 (+1 level, +1 int, +2 class, +3 mako)

    BAB: +1
    Melee: +8
    Ranged: +1

    Skills:
    -Initative: (+5)
    -Spellcasting (+15)
    -Perception (+8)

    Feats:
    -Mark of Soldier
    -Light armor proficiency
    -Weapon proficiency (Swords)
    Human: SOLDIER TRAINING
    Level 1: Skill Focus (Spellcasting)

    Talents:
    -Who cares?

    Extraordinary Abilities
    -Flight
    -Dark Rage
    -Scorcher
    -Scorcher
    -Apocalypse

    Materia:
    -None

    Equipment
    Weapon: Broadsword (1d10), Katana (2d12)
    Armor: SOLDIER Uniform (+6 reflex, +3 fort, +3 max dex)
    Accessory: Powerwrist (+2 strength checks and melee attack rolls)
    Other: Grenade x5 (3d8, AoE)
    Other: Mindsource (+1 will defense +2 spellcasting)

    Limit Breaks
    -Cross Slash

    -----------------
    Attack Options: (Assume roll of 10 on spellcasting)
    Round 1, Dark Rage (Mako Point), Scorcher, Attack
    +15 to hit, Damage: 2d12+10 +3d6
    Minimum: 15, Maximum: 52 , Average: 33

    Alternatively, Dark Rage, normal attack and save Scorcher and use two Scorcher's together (including mako point to power up the first)
    Round 2, Scorcher (Mako Point), Scorcher, Attack
    +15 to hit, Damage: 2d12+10+8d6
    Minimum: 20, Maximum: 82, Average: 51

    ---------------

    This isn't including things like limit breaks or the fact that I didn't even pick a talent for this.

    Luckily, the proposed change to make it charisma for spellcasting (but keeping it wisdom for number of powers) will help limit this. It will force the target to either drop strength, drop con, have only average wisdom and get less powers, or something else.

    Luckily upon testing it seems a lot of the powers that are good at early levels (not all of them, but most) are powered up by the casting skill. Forcing a Soldier to need Charisma, Wisdom, and Strength for the big hits will drop them either in "number avaliable at one time" "odds of getting highest damage" or "bonus damage" thus hindering them. In order to keep high hard hits with the proposed change con and int and dex would all have to be dropped making them a little squishier (though their high defenses from mako infusion still make that powerful)

    Optimally it seems the best SOLDIER layout with the charisma changes would be...

    Str: 14
    Dex: 8
    Con: 12
    Int: 10
    Wis: 18
    Cha: 16
    After the adjustments due to clone it becomes...

    Str: 18
    Dex: 8
    Con: 10
    Int: 10
    Wis: 16
    Cha: 16

    In addition swap mind source with luck source.

    This drops damage by 2, accuracy by 1, HP by 1, Fort by 1, damage threshold by 1, evasion by 1, ranged by 1, skills by 1, magic defense by 1, and will defense by 1 (raises ranged attack by 1, but they don't use ranged attacks so who cares?). Thus one still gets a powerful character even with this layout, but it at least helps a little. A very, very, very little bit, but it is better than nothing.

    So SOLDIER will still be VERY powerful even after the change, but every little nerf helps.





    ---------------

    Mage is a class that CAN be overpowered but only with certain spells (which luckily spell nerfing is easier than class nerfing). One thing to consider removing (and it hurts to say this) is the talent Lifestream Focus. I understand it is a fullround action, but regardless the ability to have infinite mako points should not be underestimated. Especially since fullround actions can be used outside of combat. It means they can use all the magic they want, save themselves from death, and add d6s to attack rolls for everything.

    Every class (if optimizing) would dip a level of mage because +1d10 hit die AND the ability to regenerate mako points is amazing.

    One of the things that made force points in saga so valuable was that they only came back in VERY rare (and limited) cases and when you leveled up. A talent that makes a skill check to bring them back is too powerful.

    It's great for a blaster mage who wants to toss out 6d10 all day everyday, but from a balance perspective there is no way NOT to have that talent be abusive. It is obtainable with a dip, and even not dipping is gross.

    Imagine a mage with only 20wisdom (+5). This mage could toss out a blizzard that does 6d10 almost all day long and just take 6 seconds out of combat to get 2 back and keep repeating that.'

    If you MUST have a regeneration ability, it needs to be limited to once per encounter at BEST, but most likely once a day.

    The downside is that it limits mages in how often they can blast, but it is similar to D&D "spells per day". A mage should not be able to throw out unlimited spells that do more damage than everyone else as much as he wants.

    And imagine a SOLDIER with just 1 level of mage regenerating MP and blowing **** up let and right.

    If you really want a "mage will always have at least something", add a talent that says when casting magic (specify materia or whatever) you can get one MP for free. This means a Mage with 0MP can still toss out a weak 1d10 blizzard or something and won't be useless, but at the same time doesn't allow them to throw out max damage all day long.

    A mage needs to balance the use of ethers, his big spells, and his MP.

    The second thing it does is makes it easier for you to balance spells. Some spells are only scary if the mage pumps them full of MP. If a mage blows all his MP on one spell he'll be weak for a while.

    EDIT: Didn't think of this before, but a friend pointed out that Ethers will be just as bad. Any class that uses MP will have a decent wisdom so even without it being trained they have a good chance to ace it (sure level 1 might be hard, but later on ether can be taken by anyone easily). Thus it means that people get way too much MP. Considering the fact they can be used for spells, extraordinary abilities, adding to a dice roll, and staying alive making them that common might not be a great idea.

    It will take some work, but honestly splitting Mako Points and Magic Points might be a good idea. Mako Points should be the "force points" of the game with little regeneration options, the add to dice rolls, stay alive, and power up extraordinary abilities features.

    MP should be something easier to regenerate (that mage talent, ethers, inns, etc) for various classes. Might recommend doing something like HP. A class gets MP based on some stat + base for class or something. Not sure how you'd do it, but might be better to give each class an "Mana/Magic" growth.
    Last edited by Major; 2012-09-25 at 03:42 AM.

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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Final Fantasy VII d20 (version 1.12) PEACH PLEASE!!!!!

    On the subject of Mages being overpowered, would it be better if i remove the Lifestream Focus talent AND the Ether item completely from the game? Or would it be better if i did a Magic Points system as well as a Mako Point system, like you suggested, and reference the Lifestream Focus talent and the use of ethers to MagP instead of MakP?

    Also, What would you suggest to make the SOLDIER 3rd Class more balanced?

    Edit: Magic Point growth for base classes:

    Spoiler
    Show
    Starting Magic Points
    Noble/Scoundrel--------9 + Int Modifier
    Scout/Soldier-----------12 + Int Modifier
    Mage/SOLDIER 3rd-----18 + Int Modifier

    Magic Points gained at each level after 1st
    Noble/Scoundrel---------1d3 + Int modifier
    Scout/Soldier------------1d4 + Int modifier
    Mage/SOLDIER 3rd------1d6 + Int modifier
    Last edited by Marc_In_Da_Room; 2012-09-25 at 05:48 AM.

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    Default Re: Final Fantasy VII d20 (version 1.12) PEACH PLEASE!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc_In_Da_Room View Post
    On the subject of Mages being overpowered, would it be better if i remove the Lifestream Focus talent AND the Ether item completely from the game? Or would it be better if i did a Magic Points system as well as a Mako Point system, like you suggested, and reference the Lifestream Focus talent and the use of ethers to MagP instead of MakP?

    Also, What would you suggest to make the SOLDIER 3rd Class more balanced?

    Edit: Magic Point growth for base classes:

    Spoiler
    Show
    Starting Magic Points
    Noble/Scoundrel--------9 + Int Modifier
    Scout/Soldier-----------12 + Int Modifier
    Mage/SOLDIER 3rd-----18 + Int Modifier

    Magic Points gained at each level after 1st
    Noble/Scoundrel---------1d3 + Int modifier
    Scout/Soldier------------1d4 + Int modifier
    Mage/SOLDIER 3rd------1d6 + Int modifier
    I'd say either should work. I like the idea of Int since it gives pure mages something else to look at. In addition by splitting the system you can keep a regen type ability and item (as the games had) without getting overpowered by a SOLDIER dipping mage.

    So, a simple quick fix is just remove the talents and items. The best fix would be something similar to an Magic system like you have there.

    Regenerating Magic isn't AS broken (assuming there is still some limit) as regenerating Mako.

    Too much regeneration still leads to the problem of a mage just spending every fight blasting full power magic the whole fight without weighing the consequences (this would need to be tested to see how big a deal it is), so the full-round action might be a bit much. Perhaps a "once per encounter" type thing would be good to try and if too much try daily.

    Right now a mage with only 18 Casting stat (+4 and most mages will be Moogle or Cetra and thus have higher) will get to add +4d10 to his spells by spending extra magic points. If they get too much regeneration you'll have mages just using the full-power options every time.

    Thus blizzard will never be a 1d10 to "save magic", it will also be a 4d10 or higher and blow through Magic because "I'll just regen"

    Thus the problem comes with figuring out how much on average you want a mage to be doing and figuring out about how many fights you think they should have before running low on magic.

    Adding a magic vs mako helps because it means you aren't limited to "only regens on level" and magic can be regenerated like health (through items or inns, etc). It helps balance it, but figuring out how much regen is too much is still a tricky thing (this is something playtesting is good for)

    ------
    As for SOLDIER 3rd class...well here is the problem. You have one class that has...
    -Best hit die
    -Best Magic growth (with that new formula you posted)
    -Best Mako
    -Best BAB
    -Best class defenses by FAR

    The only bad things about it are
    -Human only (most players will be human unless DM disallows them or they want to play a mage)
    -Limited in Era (which might want to be changed for reasons I listed in playtest but will copy paste at end of this
    -Low skills

    Giving one class the best everything is obviously going to make it overpowered.

    Balancing SOLDIER would require a lot of work since its a full built class, but built on a foundation that hurts it.

    The following is suggestions, the system is yours but I'll point out some of the big things.

    First off, I'd suggest getting rid of Mako Infusion power-ups, at the very least for players. Honestly the infusion policy is really cool, but it honestly is rather icky. No class should be forced to have to roll BEFORE it gets in the class to see if it is even able. A class is something a player picks and then is good with and a "You might fail to get in the class" while a cool story mechanic is bad from a general creation idea. Perhaps limit that to NPCs and the "might fail to get in" aspect for multiclassing.

    This also keeps starting creation and rolls to a minimum. You want to start in SOLDIER? Ok, do what you do for every class, place your stats, pick your talents, pick your feats. At creation things should be basic.

    Second off, put the class bonuses in line with other class bonuses. No other class gets a +2 to every stat. Figure out what each class does get (I think its 4 points usually) and match them all up. Equal number, unequal distribution. (Example: Saga Jedi got +1, +1, +1. Another class would get +2, +1, +0. It always equaled three because there were three stats. So make this one always equal four. Not every class four, and one class 8.)

    Those two alone account for an extra +16 to stats that nobody else gets (four extra class, and twelve from mako infusion if over 20 which most characters will EASILY get).

    With that and the spellcasting (charisma) change it will be a start. It will still be rough because Jedi in Saga could be overpowered and the one downside was the high stats they needed (which this game gives a high starting stats.) So I'd recommend starting with that, doing some play testing, and seeing if they work better.

    But the biggest problem was definitely a +3 to all defensive stats from mako infusion, +2 to all defensive stats from class giving them a starting +5 to all four defenses.

    The "Clone"template at least is pretty much a "racial" trait and could be argued that it isn't OP because it is a race more so than a bonus. However, I'd suggest getting rid of the auto-flight. It seems a bit odd that every SOLDIER (even third class) can fly. Usually that was more the traits of Materia or the monsters/aliens.

    With the defensive stats nerfed, spell casting charisma based, and the Magic and Mako split you help stop the overpoweredness.

    (For my super soldier build I spent 2-3 mako points per encounter. By making them unable to regenerate because you split them with magic points, that means that a SOLDIER can go into a "Super" mode, but not every fight. He'll have to save his big moments for big fights.)

    I'd still recommend you re-look over the basics though of best hit die, best base attack, best Mako, best magic, and best defenses (brought up already so should be fixed).

    I agree they should be d10 hit die and best base attack. And I know SOLDIER used materia, but they weren't usually mages (don't recall seeing a pure mage SOLDIER. Angeal fought with fist mostly with a little magic, Zack fought sword mostly with a little magic, Genesis fenced with a decent amount of magic [still primary sword], Sephiroth was mostly sword). I'm curious your reasoning, but perhaps a middle tier of Magic?

    Mako points make sense based on Mako infused, but with the feat Mark of Soldier might not be a bad idea to have them be middle in the mako points too and have the feat make up for it. That one though is 100% optional and not vital (imo) (on desktop, fiancee is borrowing laptop so not sure if everyone has same mako points or not).

    --------
    Oh right, said I would comment on reasons you might want to consider making some changes to SOLDIER 3rd class.

    The majority of characters in FFVII that were ex-soldier vastly outnumber the ones that are SOLDIER and it seems odd to have a system punish the very thing all the big characters became. (Sephiroth, Ex-SOLDIER. Genesis, Ex-SOLDIER. Angeal, Ex-SOLDIER, Zack, Ex-SOLDIER. Cloud, thought he was Ex-SOLDIER.)

    One big thing about the initial system of SAGA was that the classes were not set in stone, but merely archtypes. Scoundrel, Noble, Soldier, Mage, etc all fit an archtype, but SOLDIER is very specific, especially forcing them to actually be a member of Shinra as opposed to leaving it as a "Shinra-enhanced super soldier" archtype. Just my opinion.

    In addition that line locks out anyone from being SOLDIER in one of the eras
    Basically if you look at the other classes, you can see that they are broad and the names mean little. One thing SAGA was big about (and the reason it only had six classes) was that your class was all mechanics and you could be a class without being that. Example: not everyone in the Jedi class has to be a member of the Jedi Order.
    Example:
    "Noble" Actually nobility, leader of a company, charismatic hero with no royal blood that people like to listen to, crime lord, pirate captain. All these could take the "Noble" route and not actually be noble blood.
    "Scoundrel" Any type of person that would fight dirty, use tricks, etc. This could be an actually evil villainous cheater who cheats to win. Or it could simply be an anti-hero that will aim low. It could be a man that is out in the fringe of society being a rogue freedom fighter.
    "Soldier" Any trained fighter. Gladiator, Soldier, Mercenary, Bounty Hunter, prodigy with a weapon, Knight, etc. Not necessarily a member of the army.
    Mage: Any person who fights primarily with magic. A healer, a shaman, a summoner, a black mage, a sorcerer, etc.

    Note how each one of those is broad and open. And if I wanted to make a red mage I could grab a level of Mage and Soldier/Scoundrel to mix things up. My character might not be a trained military man and could not be a soldier, but the level would be grabbed to reflect more martial training.

    However, in this system you added something VERY specific. You should consider (your system, your choice) possibly making SOLDIER a bit more broad and open. By making it more open the SOLDIER class could be a guy who actually trained with Shinra (member of Shinra organization) and is actually a third class, or it could be a man who always enjoyed fighting with a sword and learned cool techniques.

    Right now, because of how specific and limited SOLDIER 3rd class is, it forces out any other melee weapon user because all the other classes focus on magic, buffing, or ranged. Jedi/SOLDIER was the melee class, but is currently locked out to anyone who doesn't want to play an actual SOLDIER. Final Fantasy had plenty of sword users and melee specialist without a single amount of training.

    By making this more open it does a few things. 1) It fills an archetype. Melee DPS is now in the game. 2) It fits more in line with the other classes (no longer the only class with 'roll to get in' 'might not accept you' 'changes your race' 'humans only' etc etc) 3) Gives an excuse the reason for Mako Infusion not being a PC thing.

    I would still say keep the SOLDIER 2nd class and SOLDIER 1st class as Shinra SOLDIER only though (similar to how Jedi Knight and Jedi Master required you to be in the Jedi Order despite Jedi not requiring it).

    Save limitations for the PrCs, with only six base classes in the entire system each one needs to be available or you have a system with 5 base classes and the archetypes are missing their melee man.

    This wouldn't even really require a change of the names since feats and talents are a mechanics thing and not a requirement. SOLDIER training for a SOLDIER is "I learned this sword move from SOLDIER training". But SOLDIER training or a wandering sword master could just be a "You will know see the ancient technique of *blahblahblah*"

    It opens up roleplay and diversity without requiring any changes. And the openness and ability to alter classes and mechanics was one of the big reasons that Saga is such a loved system. Had SAGA said "No a Scoundrel is a Scoundrel, a Jedi is a Jedi, a Soldier is a Soldier. You can't take any class unless someone says that guy is X" then people would have HATED the lack of classes. Saga got away with six classes because the classes were archetypes, not limiters.




    Edit: Oh one other balance thing I forgot. A SOLDIER can start with 3000gil if maxed. Let him buy his own armor and weapon like everyone else. Or if worried a SOLDIER that rolls low can't afford it then reduce his starting gil to make up for the fact he is getting a free weapon and a free suit of armor. Every other class has to buy anything they want. So...lower starting credits or remove the "auto-gear." I mean with weapons and armor bought it just came down to buying lots of power-ups because "well, I'm good with gear, what buffs can I get?"
    Last edited by Major; 2012-09-25 at 07:03 AM.

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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Final Fantasy VII d20 (version 1.12) PEACH PLEASE!!!!!

    By the way, wanted to make sure it wasn't lost in the great block of text, but I want you to know I do like the system and am impressed with your work.

    I know a lot of my comments have been pointing out problems, but that's because fixing errors is something that is important.

    A lot of the system is very strong and you've done a great job.

    Example: coming up with that Magic Point rough draft so quickly? Yeah, definitely not something I could have done so quickly.
    Example: Chocobo breeding and racing. The fact that you thought to do that was very cool.

    I see the reasons you've done a lot of things and somethings work great from video game to tabletop (see chocobo racing) and others don't (see mako infusion=power-up).

    But either way you've done a lot of work and grabbed things from all over. It's easy to grab the obvious things like swords and SOLDIER and materia, but to develop things as detailed as chocobo breeding, item creation, materia slot equips, feeding greens, and racing around on a chocobo? That's cool.

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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Final Fantasy VII d20 (version 1.12) PEACH PLEASE!!!!!

    Thank you for all the help, Major .

    List of things i will do to make SOLDIER 3rd Class more of an archtype:

    1. Reduce the number of Mako Points from 10 to 5 (in fact, now with the Magic Point system as well, i will make this reduction in all base classes)
    2. Remove the starting gear (like you said, SOLDIERs have enough gil to buy their own equipment)
    3. Remove mako Infusion as an entry requirement for SOLDIER (however i will keep it in the JENOVA and the Cetra chapter as mechanics for characters that have been messed around with by science)
    4. Change their class bonus to Defences as the following: +1/+1/+1/+1 (like a mage)


    Anything else needed to add to the list?

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    Default Re: Final Fantasy VII d20 (version 1.12) PEACH PLEASE!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc_In_Da_Room View Post
    Thank you for all the help, Major .

    List of things i will do to make SOLDIER 3rd Class more of an archtype:

    1. Reduce the number of Mako Points from 10 to 5 (in fact, now with the Magic Point system as well, i will make this reduction in all base classes)
    2. Remove the starting gear (like you said, SOLDIERs have enough gil to buy their own equipment)
    3. Remove mako Infusion as an entry requirement for SOLDIER (however i will keep it in the JENOVA and the Cetra chapter as mechanics for characters that have been messed around with by science)
    4. Change their class bonus to Defences as the following: +1/+1/+1/+1 (like a mage)


    Anything else needed to add to the list?
    Actually not a bad idea with the Mako Points. Puts it more in line with SAGA and that didn't seem to be too many or too few from most the games I ran.

    Only other thing I could think of was including the line about EX soldiers and moving that to 2nd class and 1st class PrCs.

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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Final Fantasy VII d20 (version 1.12) PEACH PLEASE!!!!!

    All done, and i know everyone is not going to like me for it but i'm going to upload the newer versions of both books for everyone to use instead of the old versions

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    Default Re: Final Fantasy VII d20 (version 1.12) PEACH PLEASE!!!!!

    Usually best (imo) to leave old versions up and link new versions just to make sure some people are running separate rules. But eh, whatevs. What is done is done, looking over new book.

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    Default Re: Final Fantasy VII d20 (version 1.12) PEACH PLEASE!!!!!

    Alright, skimmed the book over and wow. You did a lot of good changes I didn't even mention or think about. I really like how it looks.

    I don't see any big things that stand out anymore (play testing will reveal any flaws), but I'll make a few tiny notes (nothing major merely going to list opinions)

    1) DMW: At the moment it seems pretty powerful. No matter what you roll every turn that character is buffed. Perhaps require it (since the thing was a slot system) to require you to match. IE: Roll 3d6 and if all three match you get a bonus. For those funky little "Get stuck" "get bumped" that it did in the game perhaps you can use a mako point to reroll a die? Or change one die to whatever you want? Or something? I don't know. Right now a 3d6 is guaranteed to roll SOMETHING and get some buff every combat round and it MIGHT (playtest should check this, I'll try and get it on my character in the playtest) get overpowered.

    Feel free to let me know if I'm missing something and you disagree.

    2) Mako Infusion and the SOLDIER section is really good, but perhaps only require the mako infusion (if you do, I still believe it is too powerful since it is a free +3 to all defenses...anybody would take it because why not?) to be if you take one the PrCs or to make the wording easier if you are actually a member of the SOLDIER organization (which the PrCs require anyways). Especially with the change to make it an archtype why do you need to get mako infused unless you are part of Shinra?


    (This one is just brainstorming idea, not a flaw I see)
    3) This one is optional and I'm not sure if it is good or not. So, don't actually jump on this one without thinking it over. Since mage has armor proficiency (light) now and some mages will prefer the armlets or bangles and some will prefer the armor, what would you think if the talent "Attune Armor" also did something similar to the armored defense feat? Or even add an "Improved Attune Armor". On one hand, you don't want to take from soldier, on the other hand the armor will get eh later.

    I'm thinking it shouldn't be too bad since soldier's improved version allows you to add half armor AND level, while the improved attune would only allow you to take the higher. Plus soldier's applies to all armor, while mage's only applies to the suit they attune to themselves. Might be cool, might not. Opinion?

    --------
    Second book was giving me troubles, downloading now, but doubt that one will have much since I don't think the changes are as many in it.

    Armlets, I thought they weren't going to be any type of armor. Book says light armor. Personally I'm fine with it that way honestly, just wanted to check.

    Since mages now have light armor it makes sense that they aren't penalized while other classes don't HAVE to wear armor. Thus it balances out in that wearing armor helps, but isn't required by any class that doesn't NEED it. (Soldiers and SOLDIERs have it for defensive purposes, Mages have it for magic, rest don't need it.)

    ------------

    On a side note, I'm thinking for simplicity sake you might want to change the name of SOLDIER 3rd class or soldier. Helps ease confusion some. Perhaps make soldier "ranger" or "gunner" (since it uses rifles, pistols, etc) or "fighter" (since it is the basic fighting class). And make SOLDIER into "Soldier" while leaving SOLDIER as an organization (which is already is).

    Up to you, but might make it easier when explaining to new people "Alright you can play a SOLDIER or a soldier or a noble or a scoundrel or a mage or a scout!" (the double soldier can get odd).

    Anyways that's just a suggestion and nothing fancy. Similar to number 3 listed above.



    ----
    Edit: Just wanted to repeat, that I think this version is looking REALLY good. I mean, it seems WAY fixed and balanced. I'll be honest when I first saw the system I was like "meh..." and signed up more as a curiosity and see how the system developed. But this version really fixed a lot of problems that turned me off to the system at first before I finally decided to give it a try.

    ...now if only more people would comment so I'm not the only one.
    Last edited by Major; 2012-09-26 at 05:04 AM.

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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Final Fantasy VII d20 (version 1.12) PEACH PLEASE!!!!!

    1. The DMW can be balanced, i just need help as i'm rubbish at balancing lol.

    2. I made SOLDIER 3rd Class more of an archtype and i put in the chapter JENOVA and the Cetra, under the Mako Infusion heading, that characters need to get infused with mako by no later than 7th level in order to join Shinra's SOLDIER unit.

    3. I will think about changing the names of the classes. Maybe they can be SOLDIER and Knight? Thoughts?

    4. Arm Pieces are now considered Light armour as i thought it made sense seeing as i now gave mages Armour Proficiency (light) as a starting feat.

    Anything else needed to be changed or altered?

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    Default Re: Final Fantasy VII d20 (version 1.12) PEACH PLEASE!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc_In_Da_Room View Post
    1. The DMW can be balanced, i just need help as i'm rubbish at balancing lol.

    2. I made SOLDIER 3rd Class more of an archtype and i put in the chapter JENOVA and the Cetra, under the Mako Infusion heading, that characters need to get infused with mako by no later than 7th level in order to join Shinra's SOLDIER unit.

    3. I will think about changing the names of the classes. Maybe they can be SOLDIER and Knight? Thoughts?

    4. Arm Pieces are now considered Light armour as i thought it made sense seeing as i now gave mages Armour Proficiency (light) as a starting feat.

    Anything else needed to be changed or altered?

    DMW
    ----
    Well it depends on how much you want it triggered. A couple ways to balance it
    1) Only activates when you match numbers (be it all 2 or 3).
    -Optional rule: Spent mako point to alter rolls (be it pick 1 number or reroll up to you)

    2) Only activates when you spend a mako point
    -Stays the way it is, but has a cost to activate

    3) Leave it the way it is, but expect people to take it if they can because free buffs.

    4) Decrease chance of getting something (IE: certain numbers, I recommend the middle ones, do nothing. So you gotta roll low or roll high.)
    -I say middle because to roll a 3 you need all 1s. To roll an 18 you need all 6s. The odds of that are smaller than the odds of rolling a mix of numbers.

    -------

    Archtype
    -Ah sorry, must have missed that mako infusion part when reading (was really early in the morning). Thought it was the class SOLDIER not the organization.

    --------

    Works for me. Knight is a bit questionable since they use guns, but the main point is to mix up names and at the same time the soldier/knight class DOES get all the armor and tanking talents (armored defense, improved armored defense, draw fire, etc)

    --------

    Yeah makes sense, was just checking if that was intent. Personally I like it better as light armor.

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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Final Fantasy VII d20 (version 1.12) PEACH PLEASE!!!!!

    Thanks Major. I think i will go with changing the roll outcome for DMW to make players needing to roll low numbers or high numbers, like you said.

    Also, i have changed normal soldier to fighter (which has been a hastle considering i now had to move the entire class to the top of the list of base classes and go through the book and replace soldier to fighter ) and changed SOLDIER 3rd Class to simply SOLDIER.

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    Default Re: Final Fantasy VII d20 (version 1.12) PEACH PLEASE!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc_In_Da_Room View Post
    Thanks Major. I think i will go with changing the roll outcome for DMW to make players needing to roll low numbers or high numbers, like you said.

    Also, i have changed normal soldier to fighter (which has been a hastle considering i now had to move the entire class to the top of the list of base classes and go through the book and replace soldier to fighter ) and changed SOLDIER 3rd Class to simply SOLDIER.
    Yeah, it is one of those changes that on one hand is a pain so you gotta balance if it is worth it, but on the other hand is very helpful to the player base and for clarity.

    It was an optional suggestion to make it better, but not a needed fix for balance.

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    Default Re: Final Fantasy VII d20 (version 1.12) PEACH PLEASE!!!!!


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    Default Re: Final Fantasy VII d20 (version 1.12) PEACH PLEASE!!!!!

    Any more thoughts on the system?

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