AMF Fighter

[Anthrowhale]

I'm still interested in the endless fighter vs wizard question, and have been trying to come up with a build that could at least challenge a wizard and generally can handle level appropriate monsters with ease. I think I have one now that's at least plausibly effective. It draws on elements of several other builds, but I haven't seen something as well-balanced previously in terms of both strong defense and offense. I'm interested in any comments or suggestions for improvement.

The basic rule I set myself is: no magic used in combat (or other routine interactions), although magic can be used to enhance the character out of combat. Valid rules are v3.5 (and 3.0 not superceded by 3.5). I've had to amend this rule the make the build viable against wizards, by using magic for initiative enhancement.

The starting stats are (32 point buy): Str/Dex/Con: 8, Int 16, Wis 14, Chr 18.

The build is Venerable Human Wilder 2/Fighter 1(Targeteer Variant, DM 310)/Battledancer 1/Crusader 1/Fist of the Forest 1/Master Thrower 2/Swordsage 1/Exotic Weapon Master 1/Master Thrower 3/Crusader 1/Warblade 1/Cloistered Cleric 1(Knowledge Devotion, War Devotion, Time)/Iajutsu Master 2/Warblade 1/Marshal 1

The end state is:
Initiative +64 (+15 Insight(MoP) +10(competence, Marshal)+10(Iajutsu Master)+20(Dex)+2(competence(Belt of Battle)+4(Imp Init)+1(Swordsage)+2(aggressive))
Spot +32, Darkvision 60'
AC 90, Touch AC 90, immune flat-footed, Can't be flanked, up to +16 more from Improved Combat Expertise
AC+20(Dex), +13 (Fist of the Forest AC), +10(battle Dancer AC), +1(Tumble AC), +5(War Devotion), +20 (LeShay Insight), +5 (Natural Armor), +7(Iajutsu Master) and Touch+5(Wilder)-1(aggressive)

HP 241
Immune Poison&Disease
Fort+31, Refl+39 (Evasion), Will+32(or +24 vs. non fear)
Move 70, Fly 140(good)
Space 5'
Reach 5'
BAB+16

End stats: Str 21, Dex 50, Con 37, Int 24, Wis 17, Chr 31

Skills: Tumble+53, Escape Artist+53, Hide: +53, MS: +53, Sleight of Hand +38, Spot+31, Iajutsu Focus +32, Sense Motive +26, K(religion)+10, K(local,nature,arcane,dungeoneering,planes)+6

The character specializes in thrown Sai or Dagger attacks. All such attacks are touch (Weak Spot from Master Thrower) and often flat-footed (high init + skill tricks), and doubled (Palm throw), sometimes strike adjacent (Two with one Blow), sometimes Rapid Shot, and sometimes under Improved Combat Expertise, implying an effective 20 attacks with touch attack bonuses ranging from +39 to +2 depending on choices.
The damage is: ~117 = 1d3+20(Shadow Blade)+20(Precision, Vital Aim, Targeteer)+20(Precision 30', Dead Eye)+20(Sneak attack, Craven)+2d6(Sneak Attack, Assassin's Stance)+~7d6(Iajutsu Focus)+~2(knowledge devotion)+1(enhance from weapon material)

A backup attack option is a composite longbow.

The character is reasonably capable throughout advancement. Two key tricks here are:
(1) Between levels 2 & 3, get Polymorph Any Object into an Anthropomorphic Desmodu Hunting Bat. (Backup alternative: Pixie)
(2) After level 7, gate in a LeShay, UPD on (very expensive) mind switch stone, then UPD on an astral seed, then undo the mindswitch before the gate wears off, then suicide.

There are many feats (assume 2 flaws), and Embrace/Shun is used 12 times in the build to replace class-granted feats and LeShay racial feats. The feats (unordered) are:
Unnatural Will
EWP(Katana)
Rapid Shot
WFinesse(Katana)
Quickdraw
Effective WF(Dagger, Sai, Short Sword, Unarmed Strike, Siangham)
Craven
Imp Init
Able Learner
WF(Katana)
Precise Shot
Combat Expertise
Imp. Combat Expertise
Shadow Blade
Improved Flight
Combat Reflexes
Point Blank Shot
Dead Eye(Dragon Compendium)
Mage Slayer
Darkstalker
Stand Still
Quick Recovery
Power Attack
Great Fortitude
Improved Unarmed Strike

Skill Tricks are Maxed out:
Slipping Past
Collector of Stories
Easy Escape
Sudden Draw
Nimble Stand
Acrobatic Backstab
Hidden Blade
Back on Your Feet
Quick Escape
Clarity of Vision

Trait: aggressive (Init+2)

There are many manuevers and stances including, Iron Heart Surge, Thicket of Blades, Assassin's Stance, White Raven Tactics, Shadow Jaunt, Flashing Sun, Counter Charge, Zephyr Dance, Mountain Hammer, Absolute Steel Stance, Steel Wind

Money is spent on: True Mindswitch, Shun/Embrace, Dex+5, Chr+5, Int+5, 2*Fast Leg graft, Crown of Eyes, Feathered Wings, Antimagic Torc, Custom headband of command word Foresight 1/day, custom ring of command word Moment of Prescience 1/day, custom bracers of command word contingent celerity 1/day, a belt of battle, and various weapons including a Riverine Katana which is held in the off hand and only used defensively.

This build addresses many different threats. The primary defense against spellcasters is the AM Manacles, but many more defenses are layered on.

Against all threats, a high initiative should be helpful.

Mailman build: AM Manacles + high Touch AC, Hide+Move Silently, Thicket of Blades+Stand Still.
Persistomancer: AM Manacles, Thicket of Blades+Stand Still
Debuffer: AM Manacles.
Summoner: AM Manacles.

In melee combat, the build counters melee special attacks fairly well. The primary defense is flight, or failing that:
Trip/Splash/Grapple: high Touch AC
Sunder: Riverine or many weapons
Feint: Sense Motive+BAB
Charge: High AC or Countercharge
Overrun: Back on your Feet, Thicket of Blades+Stand Still
Bull Rush: Thicket of Blades+Stand Still
AOO: Tumble, Close Quarters Ranged combat (Exotic W. Master)

The weaknesses that I'm aware of are:
(1) Fear attacks can have an even higher DC.
(2) Precision immune types take significantly less damage.
(3) There are _many_ options between feats, class features, maneuvers, stances, and skill tricks. Mastering them all well enough to use them is nontrivial.
(4) Eventually, you always run out of ammunition.
(5) Drowning.

Edited: dropped Improved Combat Expertise for Darkstalker
Edited: dropped Combat Expertise for Improved Flight and bought feathered wings.
Edited: Changed the build to use Epic rules, since the only attack options for a wizard appear to be epic gate based. Changed Kelvezu to LeShay, added Mage Slayer for >medium mages, Dropped Swashbuckler for Warblade (uncanny dodge), added crown of eyes for all-around vision + Darkvision, added back Combat Expertise and Improved Combat Expertise, Dropped Evasive Reflexes, Weapon Finesse, Flyby attack, Great Flyby Attack.
Edit: Upgraded manacles to use Riverine rather than adamantium to defeat a sunder attack.
Edit: Changed Ranger to Fist of the Forest. Recycled LeShay racial feats to pay feat and skill tax on Fist of the Forest. Used easier mind switch version: UPD(Mind switch) + UPD(Astral Seed) on a (hired) Gate LeShay at level 7. This saves money and boosts hp.
Edit: Changed Monk to Marshal with a minor aura boosting dex checks. Made the character start as vulnerable for mental stat boost. Added trait: aggresive. The combined effect boosts initiative to 47 and AC to 91.
Edit: Downgrade AM-manacles to AM-Torc and picked up custom items affecting initiative. Initiative of +64 should trouble the wizards.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You're still completely hosed if the wizard wraps you in a force cage. A wizard that you pick a fight with makes himself near-impossible for you to hit, closes you in a force cage, casts wall of force 4-5 times, then casts flashflood and waits for the bubbles to stop. If you discard your AMF manacles so you can teleport out of the trap, he demolishes you with all the usual tricks.

It's a sad, but true fact that even the most dedicated anti-mage martial build is completely unable to defeat a wizard without using magic to counter magic.

[Eldariel]

Really, defensive stacking is fairly pointless. Get as many defenses as you can afford but focus on the alpha. You want as many means to act out of turn order and act fast as possible and as difficult-to-block an offense as possible.

Here's an example of a Mage Slayer I used long ago in a Wizard vs. Fighter arena fight; while the mage won eventually (and the mage was holding back), I still did manage to kill him twice simply due to him underestimating me. It's a subpar build; it didn't, for instance, use Legacy Weapon (which is an easy way to access Mind Blank, Moment of Prescience, Foresight-like ability to act flat-footed and similars) or Phasing Arrows. I also didn't have the time to fit stealth components into the build (would require some form of Hide in Plain Sight).

The build can basically arrow cascade anything out of turn order for ~40+ arrows and enough damage to kill most challenges you might find; it has White Raven Tactics & Iron Heart Surge, mostly good saves and overall fairly robust defenses and yeah, the ability to take a turn outside turn order as an Ex-ability 1/encounter.


My point is that a mage has all the tools; no matter how well you defend yourself, it won't be enough unless you have heaps of magic. Likewise, a mage's defenses won't be penetrated without magic. A mundane's best tools are stealth (stealth skills are difficult to hardcounter with magic) and strong offense, at range and in melee, preferably at high initiative counts. Focus on abusing any mistakes they might do, not being near immortal.

[Anthrowhale]

You're still completely hosed if the wizard wraps you in a force cage.

Force cage is beat 3 ways.

(1) It's unclear whether AMF beats Forcecage by RAW to me, since it is not specifically mentioned as an exception in either it's spell description or the AMF description. (Wall of force is specifically mentioned.)

(2) Shadow Jaunt is an Ex teleport, allowing escape.

(3) You can't drown someone who is flying in a forcecage that easily.

[Azoth]

Man...this makes me want to break out my attempted build to kill mages. He wasn't that strong at range, but could shut off a lot of the mage's abilities and defenses when he hit in mele. He could also keep up with a phantom steed in the air. Only escape was to teleport before he hit you.

[Eldariel]

(2) Shadow Jaunt is an Ex teleport, allowing escape.

This requires line of sight and effect; only works against certain types of Force Cages.

[Flickerdart]

Your best attack is +26? The bulk of your damage relies on precision, catching a wizard unawares and practically point blank range? Hell, you don't even have Darkstalker on there.

[Rubik]

Man...this makes me want to break out my attempted build to kill mages. He wasn't that strong at range, but could shut off a lot of the mage's abilities and defenses when he hit in mele. He could also keep up with a phantom steed in the air. Only escape was to teleport before he hit you.

Or to have at least one clone (which is easy), be an astral projections (which is easy), have one of various contingencies - including Revivify (which is easy), have a tinfoil hat and a raven familiar (which is easy; what else other than a hummingbird are you going to have as a familiar, if you have one at all?), have Heart of Stone active (which is easy), have Greater Ironguard up (which is easy), or one of dozens of other things which can totally mess up your day.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Force cage is beat 3 ways.

(1) It's unclear whether AMF beats Forcecage by RAW to me, since it is not specifically mentioned as an exception in either it's spell description or the AMF description. (Wall of force is specifically mentioned.)

(2) Shadow Jaunt is an Ex teleport, allowing escape.

(3) You can't drown someone who is flying in a forcecage that easily.

1) It's unclear by RAW, but RAMS strongly suggest that forcecage beats AMF.

2) This is an obvious oversight, but I suppose you have a point. I'd be very surprised if a DM let it fly though. How do you justify non-magical teleportation?

3) That's why I said 4-5. 4 sides and a bottom, unless you're already on the ground, then just 4 sides.

Assuming that forcecage isn't bypassed by amf, you can still be contained in the opaque windowless cell version.

[Togo]

Why avoid using magic?

Wizards get magical class abilities, and magical equipment. Non-casters get fewer if any magical abilities, and magical equipment. Why make it harder for yourself?

I too had a mage-killer build. It wasn't particularly complicated, but I never got to test it out. The most impressive one I saw was relatively low level, and was an archer build, using various tricks to avoid the usual wizardly defences against arrows.

The problem is, the contest relies very heavily on the opinions of the DM. Many of the standard tricks, like the tinfoil hat, simply wouldn't work very well under some DMs. Others might not like my usual defence against forcecage - carry a long invisible pole with you. It becomes trick versus trick, and the symapthies of the DM may decide the contest, even if you're sticking closely to what you consider to be RAW.

[Anthrowhale]

This requires line of sight and effect; only works against certain types of Force Cages.

As long as it works for the kind tried, that's cool.

The other kind doesn't work naively because a 10' cube can't fully contain a 5' radius sphere. A widened version is possible, but it's a timeout option. Also forcecage is expensive. Also, wizards are pretty powerful---it's quite reasonable for a DM to limit forcecage to be beaten by AMF.

Your best attack is +26?

Not many things have a touch AC of 26.

The bulk of your damage relies on precision,

There's enough overkill to deal with the typical precision-immune wizard.

catching a wizard unawares and practically point blank range? Hell, you don't even have Darkstalker on there.

Right. Fixed that---lost in an earlier editing pass.

2) This is an obvious oversight, but I suppose you have a point. I'd be very surprised if a DM let it fly though. How do you justify non-magical teleportation?

It seems freakish, but that's the rules.

3) That's why I said 4-5. 4 sides and a bottom, unless you're already on the ground, then just 4 sides.

A Wall of Force is always vertical according to the spell description. Do you have some way to change it's structure?

Or to have at least one clone (which is easy), be an astral projections (which is easy), have one of various contingencies - including Revivify (which is easy), have a tinfoil hat and a raven familiar (which is easy; what else other than a hummingbird are you going to have as a familiar, if you have one at all?), have Heart of Stone active (which is easy), have Greater Ironguard up (which is easy), or one of dozens of other things which can totally mess up your day.

There are many ways a wizard can run away and survive to fight another day. That's not quite the same as an outright "win".

Why avoid using magic?

At first it was the challenge---I was thinking about the rules in a dead magic world. But then I realized it worked better than I expected. I don't imagine this build as something that defeats a well-prepared wizard, but it does seem like the kind that can peskily and very persistently interfere with plans, surviving far longer than is reasonable. It's certainly capable of handing just about any monster it's ass in very short order. And if the wizard slips up: BAM.

I'm sure a real fighter v. wizard contest is very DM dependent.

Really, defensive stacking is fairly pointless. Get as many defenses as you can afford but focus on the alpha. You want as many means to act out of turn order and act fast as possible and as difficult-to-block an offense as possible.

My belief here is that there is adequate damage potential and adequate defenses, so the real goal becomes penetrating opposed defenses. The AMF is potentially very powerful there, as is hiding, movement, spot, and initiative.

Here's an example of a Mage Slayer I used long ago in a Wizard vs. Fighter arena fight;

That's nice and you clearly put much more thought into the equipment than I did. It looks like a Mailman with true strike can get a high odds kill. The use of a harpoon is appealing---a harpoon with AMF on it could be fun for dealing with a wizard. White Raven Tactics is the weaker version of Island in Time.

A mundane's best tools are stealth (stealth skills are difficult to hardcounter with magic) and strong offense, at range and in melee, preferably at high initiative counts. Focus on abusing any mistakes they might do, not being near immortal.

This seems like good advice which I followed except for adding in defense. Very little gets through AMF+high touch AC+high Reflex save+flight. The biggest spell-based vulnerability I can come up with off-hand is conjured creatures, and we can kill many of them, particularly with good defense.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You asked about how a wizard could place a wall of force in position to close off a box, when the spell says the walls have to be vertical.

Vertical is relative.

There's nothing in the RAW defining vertical which means we have to fall back on the english language definition for the word.

Definition 2b of websters dictionary defines vertical as, "at a right angle to the plane of the supporting surface."

The supporting surface, in this case, is one of the other walls of force.

[animewatcha]

Forgive me, but what is this tinfoil hat trick thing? *still reading the walls of text*

[Kelb_Panthera]

Forgive me, but what is this tinfoil hat trick thing? *still reading the walls of text*

You take a hollow lead cone 5 ft in diameter and a bit taller than your character, hit it with shrink object, followed by permanency, then wear it as a hat. When you're subjected to an antimagic field. The 'hat' turns back into a conic structure around you. This blocks line of effect from the antimagic field's source, meaning that you are no longer subject to the AMF and can teleport away, or otherwise make preperations to deal with whatever is outside your conic shelter.

[Togo]

You take a hollow lead cone 5 ft in diameter and a bit taller than your character, hit it with shrink object, followed by permanency, then wear it as a hat. When you're subjected to an antimagic field. The 'hat' turns back into a conic structure around you. This blocks line of effect from the antimagic field's source, meaning that you are no longer subject to the AMF and can teleport away, or otherwise make preperations to deal with whatever is outside your conic shelter.

While it's a lovely idea, it does assume a number of things - that your head will be aligned with the land surface, which will be roughly flat, that you are standing reasonably still with your arms down, and so on. Otherwise the cone just falls over when it appears. Even assuming all that you end up with a really really thin cone (hence tinfoil), or a very very heavy hat.

There's a phrase that came up once during this kind of discussion - 'Player fiat'. It's just like DM fiat (this works because I say it works) except it's used by players spinning a plan for their character without factoring in the DM. Plans like the tinfoil hat, astrally projecting from a distant dimension, and so on, rely quite heavily on player fiat to work. That's not to say that they won't work, but simply that you're ignoring a lot that could reasonably go wrong.

[2xMachina]

Best AMF fighter? Persist Cheater of Mystra. All pre-buffs before battle, all out smashing in battle.

[Eldariel]

That's nice and you clearly put much more thought into the equipment than I did. It looks like a Mailman with true strike can get a high odds kill. The use of a harpoon is appealing---a harpoon with AMF on it could be fun for dealing with a wizard. White Raven Tactics is the weaker version of Island in Time.

Well, the key difference is that Island in Time is an immediate action which raises it to a whole different sphere of utility; not so much being able to take extra actions but being a super-Celerity that doesn't cost you your next turn or even immediate action. It's kind of the ultimate form of active defense, which is why I went with it; it allows trumping most of a mage's action trumps to be able to peak out the action chart.


The principal issue I see with your build is the reliance on Precision damage (Heart of X-series for instance grants the enemy immunity, as does Greater Fortifications or an appropriate type or any number of forms of Critical-immunity). Surely you could at least fit Penetrating Strike in there somewhere? I can't see it dealing 1000+ damage a turn without precision, nor beating things a Wizard can Gate in (a level 20 Wizard has access to Mature Adult Force Dragon or LeShay for instance). I think the offense does need to be brushed up a bit, or rather made less reliant on SA (or somehow guarantee SA to crit immune opponents but it's hard in any case). Also, there should be some To hit steroids available.

A simple basic charger shell would help a lot on this front for instance. That's what I use with the Eternal Blade Archer; Feathered Wings Graft (never fail saves thanks to Moment of Perfect Mind), Pounce from Barbarian, Leading the Charge stance, Bounding Assault maneuver (available through Eternal Training), Power Attack and a two-handed weapon (shoulda been +1 Valorous; yet another oversight on my part). Mobile, efficient means of full attacking. Fitting Shock Trooper and Leap Attack would of course be dandy but with the AC-focus, Shock Trooper might be risky. Still, it would give a decent backup source of damage for Crit Immunes.

Also, surely there are superior True Mind Switch targets than Kelvazu if playing on that level.


I'm also not sure Anti-Magic Manacles are optimal. I personally used Anti-Magic Torc so I have access to an AMF should I want it but that I'm not shackled by it when I do not wish for it (such as when rolling Initiative; beating Moment of Prescience without Moment of Prescience on is rough).

I also had the basic controller shell with reach weapon, Thicket of Blades & Mage Slayer available, which can be incredibly useful if you do penetrate a mage's defenses but don't have anything left; it's not very high expense so mayhap some source of forced AoOs?

[Flickerdart]

Not many things have a touch AC of 26.

It's not terribly difficult to get enough touch AC if the wizard in question wanted to, but he'll also be decked out in various illusions and miss chances that you have no way of piercing.

There's enough overkill to deal with the typical precision-immune wizard.

How so? Without precision and flat-footed damage (Foresight, dire tortoise, divinations, touchsight, Mindsight, etc - even just being out of 30 ft range shuts down a lot of your stuff) you deal like 20 damage per shot at best. And then your strategy is to come even closer and try to handcuff them, which means most of the time you won't even have that first shot before being torn to pieces.

[Hirax]

Shapechange and scintillating scales are both trivial to get to last all day, and are an easy way to get a touch AC way north of 26. One of the best shapechange forms due to their dual actions ability already, chronotyryns also get 22 natural armor and 21 dex, for a quick and easy all day touch ac of 37. Bite of the werebear can rocket that further. So yeah, you need way more to to-hit bonuses. If we get to assume the wizard gets to do even a minimal amount of optimization, let alone the amount of dumpster diving you've done, this falls flat pretty quickly.

[Togo]

I prefer a Master of Many Forms based build for my mage-slaying needs. Use the wildshape ranger ACF, pick a few feats to get the right range of abilities, pick up the right items, and you're in with a decent chance of taking down most wizards. It works less well at the very highest levels, of course, but even then I'd have thought you stand a chance, depending of the levels of rules exploitation involved.

[Kelb_Panthera]

While it's a lovely idea, it does assume a number of things - that your head will be aligned with the land surface, which will be roughly flat, that you are standing reasonably still with your arms down, and so on. Otherwise the cone just falls over when it appears. Even assuming all that you end up with a really really thin cone (hence tinfoil), or a very very heavy hat.

There's a phrase that came up once during this kind of discussion - 'Player fiat'. It's just like DM fiat (this works because I say it works) except it's used by players spinning a plan for their character without factoring in the DM. Plans like the tinfoil hat, astrally projecting from a distant dimension, and so on, rely quite heavily on player fiat to work. That's not to say that they won't work, but simply that you're ignoring a lot that could reasonably go wrong.

Shrink object has a "cloth like" option for the cones consistency in hat form. As for where it lands when it falls, that's why A) cone and B) 5ft diameter instead of slightly wider than the character.
It'll rough you up some when it turns back into a big metal cone, but it'll be alot nicer than the guy trying to kill you.

The odds that you'll have your head tilited far enough to get the cones center of gravity outside of its base isn't very good, anyway. I can see a DM just saying "no, that doesn't work," but even with in-world logic it's a solid trick. It also explains the stereotypical conic hat wizards are often depicted with.

If you're really perterbed by the acute cone, make it an obtuse one, that is to say one whose base is wider in diameter than the cone is tall. Then it's almost impossible to have it land at an angle that doesn't drop it on its base.

The RAW is clear on the cone resuming full-size in the AMF. It'd be trivially easy for a person who understands how these things work to arrange it so the cone almost always lands in the right position.

TBH, it doesn't even strike me as being a cheesy trick. It seems like exactly the kind of thing that a wizard who's heard horror stories about AMF's would concoct.

Dead magic zones are exceedingly dangerous. You walk in, the cone drops, and you're trapped unless one of your BSF buddies can lift the thing high enough for you to crawl out.

Being upside down, or on a plane with no ground for the cone to fall on both negate the trick entirely. It's solid, but don't expect it to be the ultimate anti-AMF trick.

[Anthrowhale]

Shapechange and scintillating scales are both trivial to get to last all day, and are an easy way to get a touch AC way north of 26. One of the best shapechange forms due to their dual actions ability already, chronotyryns also get 22 natural armor and 21 dex, for a quick and easy all day touch ac of 37. Bite of the werebear can rocket that further. So yeah, you need way more to to-hit bonuses. If we get to assume the wizard gets to do even a minimal amount of optimization, let alone the amount of dumpster diving you've done, this falls flat pretty quickly.

The nature of the challenge doesn't seem to be getting across. If the goal is survival for the wizard, then he can plane shift out and this build simply cannot follow. Even if the wizard wants to hange around at long distance for some reason, it can use Ray Deflection or Friendly Fire to achieve immunity from ranged weapons.

So, the challenging things isn't wizard survival, but rather finding an appropriate can opener. How does a wizard defeat (not merely survive) this build? Yes, an Initiate of Mystra can do it, but can anything else?

It's not terribly difficult to get enough touch AC if the wizard in question wanted to, but he'll also be decked out in various illusions and miss chances that you have no way of piercing.

AMF is very effective at dealing with just about all magical defenses.

which means most of the time you won't even have that first shot before being torn to pieces.

Tear away. How do you plan to do it?

Eladriel's Mature Adult Force Dragon looks potentially effective---the touch AC is only 18, so initiative is of critical importance. The LeShay's very nice weapons are deeply nerfed by the AMF making it such a combat potentially survuvable.

[Eldariel]

Eladriel's Mature Adult Force Dragon looks potentially effective---the touch AC is only 18, so initiative is of critical importance. The LeShay's very nice weapons are deeply nerfed by the AMF making it such a combat potentially survuvable.

Mature Adult Force Dragons come, as a rule, with Scintillating Scales though so unless you can suppress defensive spells on their person (they cast as epic casters after all), it'll actually have 67 Touch AC. It's too big to fit into an AMF so suppressing its defenses can be tricky.

That said, those were just random examples. Gate, in general, is going to cause serious issues. Just about any creature 50 HD or lower is available to most level 20 Wizards (and Clerics) with a single spell for Caster Level Rounds/Level. I do believe you should brush up your offense in that regard. Like I suggested earlier, some kind of a rudimentary charger shell could be exceedingly useful for reliable non-precision damage.

[Flickerdart]

So, the challenging things isn't wizard survival, but rather finding an appropriate can opener. How does a wizard defeat (not merely survive) this build? Yes, an Initiate of Mystra can do it, but can anything else?

Your plan relies on walking up to a 20th level wizard undetected and then putting handcuffs on them. With no UMD or anything, even. How doesn't a wizard defeat this build?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Unless I missed something. I think the built character is actually wearing the AMF shackles to get himself an always on 5ft amf. If I'm wrong about that, then he's screwed before he gets started.

[Flickerdart]

Oh, I see. So his build isn't even useful from 30 feet away, but needs to stand adjacent to a caster. And then use ranged attacks.

[Hirax]

Your plan relies on walking up to a 20th level wizard undetected and then putting handcuffs on them. With no UMD or anything, even. How doesn't a wizard defeat this build?

This is what I'm getting so far too. edit: maw of chaos is probably the easiest way to nuke the build. Not seeing anything that allows you to get out of the way quickly enough, and a maximize rod is all that's needed to get it to one shot you in a low op setting, or CL pumping in higher op. Also, I meant to say that scintillating scales and shapechange would be active all day, and not in response to anything or as an alternative to plane shifting.

[Eldariel]

This is what I'm getting so far too. edit: maw of chaos is probably the easiest way to nuke the build. Not seeing anything that allows you to get out of the way quickly enough, and a maximize rod is all that's needed to get it to one shot you in a low op setting, or CL pumping in higher op. Also, I meant to say that scintillating scales and shapechange would be active all day, and not in response to anything or as an alternative to plane shifting.

Maw is SR: Yes so AMF does counter that at least.

[Togo]

The odds that you'll have your head tilited far enough to get the cones center of gravity outside of its base isn't very good, anyway. I can see a DM just saying "no, that doesn't work," but even with in-world logic it's a solid trick. It also explains the stereotypical conic hat wizards are often depicted with.

Unless you're surrendering your dex bonus, you're assumed to be dodging and weaving constantly. People who fight don't keep their heads level. Watch a sword fight on film, and you'll see what I mean.

And it doesn't matter about the centre of gravity so much as whether it hits the wearer on the way down. Anything but a near-perfectly level cone is going to hit nose, shoulders, arms held objects etc. on the way down, deflecting either it or the wearer. The weight won't be taken on the ground until the cone has expanded to higher than you are, meaning that you'll be driven to the ground, and knocked prone, at which point the cone as likely to land on your legs.

If you're really perterbed by the acute cone, make it an obtuse one, that is to say one whose base is wider in diameter than the cone is tall. Then it's almost impossible to have it land at an angle that doesn't drop it on its base.

Even here, is it landing before the attacker gets under it? The cone is changing altitude, meaning it's a falling object from a stationary start.

And when it lands, it is landing on a bowling green? Even on something as smooth as a grassy park you're going to get inch-wide gaps around the base, which is all you need for the AMF field to get in and negate the defence. On a more typical battlefield, which may include shrubs, uneven ground, furniture, stalactites, or other obstructions, getting a 5' diameter object to lie flush with the ground is almost impossible. Even the attacker sticking his foot under it as it falls is enough to negate the defence completely.

[Togo]

Your plan relies on walking up to a 20th level wizard undetected and then putting handcuffs on them. With no UMD or anything, even. How doesn't a wizard defeat this build?

Well that's the question, isn't it? Can the wizard counter it, with what, and can that counter be countered?

I'm broadly happy with the idea that a well-played wizard can counter any attack. I'm not convinced that the wizard can counter every attack. Most of the counters involve spells, and every tactic that is dismissed with 'well I could cast a spell to get rid of that' is one less spell that the wizard can use for anything else.

A theoretical wizard defeating a theoretical attack is easy. A particular wizard being simultaneously prepared for every possible attack that anyone can ever think of is another proposition. I reckon the number of ideas is higher than the number of spells per day.