Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?

[McStabbington]

Having stepped back from this for a while, I've decided to refrain from a detailed point by point post and just go for a more generalized critique. The generalized critique really loses nothing because each of my points ultimately comes down to the same thing: you don't seem to understand that a hero doesn't simply do the right things; he does them for the right reasons.

The line between heroes and villains isn't really all that hard to understand. Real people may drift back and forth across that line, and so may characters, but the line of demarcation itself is pretty clear-cut. Heroes do the right things because they care about something other than themselves. Han Solo becomes a hero when he goes back to save Luke. MacBeth becomes a villain when he starts murdering people to attain more power. And Mr. Incredible is a hero not because has powers, but because he insists on trying to help people even when it costs him his job and makes him an outlaw. And he does it because he cares about other people, and he just can't allow himself to stand by.

As such, I don't see how you can see Syndrome as anything but a villain, and a pretty repugnant one at that. He doesn't care that his method of testing his super robot involves killing people. He doesn't care about a long-term coworker when someone threatens to kill her. He doesn't care about innocent civilians if they happen to get in the way of his killer robot. He uses a baby as a tool to get back at the baby's father. And he doesn't care when people beg him not to kill children. Put simply, I cannot recall one time as an adult when Syndrome showed any care whatsoever for anyone but himself. As such, even if you accept the convoluted and contorted insane troll logic that gets you to the idea that murdering, torturing and kidnapping babies are all good things (which I don't), the fact still remains that he was doing all those things purely for his own ends, and not because he cared about others. Which means that Syndrome cannot be a hero.

[Tengu_temp]

When a story's hero is shown to be flawed instead of perfect and when the villain has an understandable motivation instead of doing evil for the sake of evil, many people tend to dismiss the hero as Not The Good One (because they can't accept anything but perfection) and therefore treat the villain as the one who is right, justifying his every action with often flimsly claims.

I believe the OP falls hard into this fallacy.

[kpenguin]

And now for some words from our expert commentators


"You see, Charles? How readily the humans leap to contain and destroy us, how easily they justify their prejudice? Humanity and mutantkind cannot co-exist. There can be no compromise.


"Give them time, Erik. They're not all like this..."

[Scowling Dragon]

A good person with power is never a Danger. We WANT the power into the hands of good people.

[Tiki Snakes]

And now for some words from our expert commentators


"You see, Charles? How readily the humans leap to contain and destroy us, how easily they justify their prejudice? Humanity and mutantkind cannot co-exist. There can be no compromise.


"Give them time, Erik. They're not all like this..."

Kpenguin is best Penguin.
This.

[Nekura]

What makes Superman scary is he has, at best, only a human level resistance to magic. Any two-bit mage could make a being who is practically a physical god dance to their tune.
Sure, he's probably will power out of it eventually, but at what cost?
I'm not saying it justifies a proactive strike by any means, but it does justify seeking ways to neutralize the threat if it appears.

That is why batman dislikes superman and keeps a bunch on green kryptonite and contingency plans in case it happens. Luther hates superman because he is always interfering with is evil plans and possibly just because he is an alien.

Syndrome is evil just because Mr. Incredible was rude to him when he refused to let him risk his life as a kid does not make his killing a lot of people justifiable. If he wanted to be seen as a hero he could helped people who needed it not send a robot to kill civilians. Was he going to keep inventing threats to “save” people from?

[Scowling Dragon]

And Syndrome COULD be a hero if he wanted. He at any point could have started producing amazing machines to help the world. But he wanted revenge.

[Forum Explorer]

And Syndrome COULD be a hero if he wanted. He at any point could have started producing amazing machines to help the world. But he wanted revenge.

He could have even just started saving people the old fashioned way. Instead he chose the path that guaranteed that people, likely many people would be harmed.

[Avilan the Grey]

Alright, This is my theory on the Incredibles. Everyone knows I dislike this for one reason: I think Syndrome is the true hero. I think he is working for the government, not evil and a better person than mr Incredible. The next 3 posts will explain why.

No. You are wrong on all accounts.

[Ravens_cry]

That is why batman dislikes superman and keeps a bunch on green kryptonite and contingency plans in case it happens. Luther hates superman because he is always interfering with is evil plans and possibly just because he is an alien.

Like so much in comics, that depends on the author, but yes, that's basically true.

Syndrome is evil just because Mr. Incredible was rude to him when he refused to let him risk his life as a kid does not make his killing a lot of people justifiable. If he wanted to be seen as a hero he could helped people who needed it not send a robot to kill civilians. Was he going to keep inventing threats to “save” people from?

I agree that Syndrome is a villain through and through; I agree that Lex is a villain. But I find the motivation of fearing the superman more sympathetic than Syndrome's.

[dps]

I really hope the OP is a joke or troll. Otherwise, it's kind of scary.

[Jayngfet]

You know, since the overwhelming logical fallacies of this argument have been pointed out, time and again, in this thread, by our other good playgrounders, I'm just gonna go ahead and get straight to the heart of the issue, and *why* this is such a bad argument.

Your logic is flawed, and your train of thought is based on pre-existing bias. Your whole argument is based on the idea that "Well the supers are big physical guys who are kinda jerky at a couple of points and have their powers naturally, while Syndrome is a little guy with brains who invented his stuff. I'm going to empathise with Syndrome and try to paint him as the good guy."

The inherent issue here is that you came to the conclusion that Syndrome was good first, and then constructed your whole argument around that point. I mean yeah, Syndrome made his stuff, but he made it to murder people he percieves at better than him for petty reasons while they're already vulnerable and down on their luck. You're assuming that since Syndrome vaguely resembles people you know of that are good, and kinda-sorta-but-not-really pays lip service to an ideal you subscribe to, he is by default good and all his actions are justified, while the Incredibles, who subscribe to a philosphy you have already made clear in your posts, are therefore bad, not because of what they've done, but because you disagree with them.

You're looking at the message and seeing Syndrome as some kind of picked-on Nerd being bullied by a bunch of Jocks who are naturally strong, instead of being a petty little dweeb that needs to be stopped by the only people who *can* stop him. Because unfortunatly, some people are just plain better at some things, and those people need to be responsible and be able to actually do those things to get the job done. Hence why parapalegics don't become Navy Seals, and hence why only the Incredibles can stop Syndrome and his deathbot from killing several hundred people.

[Avilan the Grey]

I really hope the OP is a joke or troll. Otherwise, it's kind of scary.

I don't think so; Sunken Valley tend to have a different way of looking at things than the rest of us.

[Ravens_cry]

I don't think so; Sunken Valley tend to have a different way of looking at things than the rest of us.

Reminds me of another thread where it was claimed with apll apparent seriousness that because unhappiness exists or even has the potential to exist, if one had the opportunity to go back in time and prevent the creation of the universe, one had a moral and ethical imperative to do so.
I disagreed rather strenuously.

[Tebryn]

Spoiler

Show

Chapter 1: Syndrome the Government Consultant

Super-heroism is outlawed in the Incredibles universe because the property damage caused by their escapades results in numerous lawsuits and a bad public image. The government still harbours these superheroes, helping them maintain their civilian identities and cope with normal life. However, some supers do not approve. These powered beings chafe under the restrictions imposed by ordinary duties and wish for a chance to use their greatness. In the first 30 minutes of the film, Mr Incredible not only super-heroes in secret with his friend Frozone, but loses his temper with his boss, punching him through 5 walls (the latter blunder not only mind-wiped by government agents but implied to have happened before, with the end result being Mr Incredible and his family re-located). Mr Incredible was a reasonably sane individual as a hero. Other supers have a lesser grip on sanity. This is where Syndrome comes in.

Yes lets.

To explain why Syndrome is useful to the government I must mention what his “evil” plan is. Syndrome has no super-powers, unless you count his vast intellect as one. He has used his inventive mind to become a weapons designer granting him a vast fortune. As a result, he is a bit cocky and could be considered a “prick”. You know who else that description matches? Iron Man. Yes, Syndrome is just like Iron Man: a maverick government consultant who operates on his own agenda, but an agenda inevitably on the government side. His greatest invention is the Omnidroid, a killer robot which he commands. Syndrome lures supers to his private island one by one with the help of his secretary Mirage, an attractive woman who offers the supers a chance to use their powers and costumes again. Whilst there they are asked to fight the “out of control” Omnidroid and try to stop it. In this gambit Syndrome is in a win-win situation. He fully intends to kill the super involved with the Omnidroid, so if they die, mission accomplished. If per chance they succeed, he asks them back and then builds a new more powerful Omnidroid specifically to kill them. Syndrome is shown to have done this to 15 super powered beings (with Mr Incredible intended as the 16th and final target). The next step of his plan is to launch a giant Omnidroid right into a city and then defeat it himself using gadgets to make himself into a superhero. This will then inspire a new age of powerless superheroes that use gadgets to fight crime, either ones they made or ones from Syndrome’s company.

So you, right off the bat, admit he’s going to murder people then use his technology to lie to the public, creating a new era of super heros who will....be breaking the law. This is going to come up later. So you remember this.

[qoute]Although Mirages’ line to Mr Incredible that both of them are “off the grid” (aka protected by the government) are a telling hint Syndrome’s actions are fully evidenced in the film as endorsed by the government by one gaping plot hole. Every super in the film has a government handler to check up on them and support them. Mr Incredible has one and both his wife and Frozone are mentioned as having their own. This implies that the 15 supers Syndrome killed had handlers as well. In this case, why was Mr Incredible never informed by the government that his life may be in danger and that supers are missing? Some of the disappearances are reported by the newspapers but Mr Incredible is never informed of them by his handler. The government are not stupid in this film, they would have noticed that 15 supers are missing, some of whom with connections to each other. Therefore, they knew Syndrome was doing it but kept quiet. Supers presumably cost a large amount of money to support and relocate and they may also be dangerous and crazy. If the government killed supers themselves, the scandal would be tremendous. So the government outsources the problem to a private organisation who will accept the job for little to no pay (highly likely, given the advanced technology Syndrome’s weapons possess has made him a billionaire). If anything, it is likely the government owes Syndrome for weapons and is paying him off by letting him kill supers (as mentioned later on, Syndrome has a grudge against super powered individuals).[/quote]

We’re going to start an assumption ticker here. You assume “Off the Grid” means protection from the governement. How? As to the government keeping silent on the deaths of the Super Heros, I’m not sure why they didn’t tell anyone but if you told a Super Hero you want to not be a Super Hero any more....the last thing you’d do is tell them a super villian is out there killing your friend. You then assume that Government wouldn’t kill Super Heros because the scandal would be huge. Then you assume that they’ll not only outsource it to Syndrome but also that it’s likely they owe him money for his weapons. So that’s three baseless assumptions right off the bat.

Syndrome’s methods of doing so are also more dignifying to supers than dying of old age, suicide or snapping and becoming a villain (which, given Mr Incredible’s circumstances, is more than possible). In Wagner's Ring the greatest honour was dying in battle as only then could one go to Valhalla, the greatest heaven. For a superhero it would be infinitely better to die in action than live a life where they could not do the jobs their powers gave them. Take for instance Syndrome’s first target: Universal Man. Universal Man does not have a secret identity. He did not see the point of having one as fighting crime was what he did. His NSA fact-file on the 2-disc DVD recommends that he be kept busy. A ban on Superheroes would be a death sentence to him. When killed by the Omnidroid, Universal Man can now say that he died the way he lived: a superhero.

You think it gives a hero more dignity to die by the hands of a Super Villain than to die of old age. Baseless assumption number 4. There’s not much to say on this. No where is it mentioned that the Super Heros are in some ennui about not getting to die by the hands of a baddie. Some seem a little sad those days are gone but none at all mention “Dying like a hero.”

Furthermore, being killed by Syndrome is more dignifying to the families of the supers. Every superhero who comes to Syndrome’s island comes of their own free will. They are also paid handsomely for their services. Mr Incredible was able to use the money he was paid to defeat the Omnidroid to buy not only a car which did not break under his super strength, but was also enough to lie to his wife about being fired earlier in the film. The cash strapped government clearly did not give the supers any of these things. Syndrome did and he hates supers. Upon the hero’s eventual fall at the hands of the Omnidroid, this money makes a great pension for the bereaved families of the supers. This saves the government money, and further highlights Syndrome as a philanthropist. Syndrome’s end goal of making a new age of powerless gadget super-heroes is also beneficial to the government, as the members presented in the film expressed a desire for a return to the days of superheroes. Gadgets allow this by making superheroes more a part of public life than the distant idols they were. It also makes them more controllable by the government as gadgets can be destroyed, unlike superpowers. Finally, Mirage defects to Mr Incredible’s side and according to The Incredibles comic book is now working for the government. Given that Mirage only sides with Mr Incredible after the rest of his family breach the island and her pardoning for being accomplice to Syndrome this may have been a hasty government cover-up. As to the question of why a government would support sending a 50 foot killer robot into its own city, it would not. Syndrome did that on his own initiative. However, this is not an evil action.

So...it’s hard to have a furthermore when the point you’re coming off of isn’t based in the movie at all. However you do make points here in that can be discussed. We’ll break them down

1. Syndrome gave the money as incentive to the struggling Heros to get them to the island. It was part of his trap. Nothing more. He never mentions anything about helping the families of the supers. Assumption 5.

2. That the government wants controllable super heros and that this is all a government plot to make dissosable heros. This will also all come back in the end so stay tuned. Also, Assumption 6.

3. The government only lets Miarge slide so that the Incredibles won’t see a massive Government Conspiracy to kill them all off so they don’t have to protect them now that they’re not super heros anymore. Welcome to Assumption 7 and one more ticket on the “We’ll get back to this later” page.

Chapter 2: Syndrome the Well Intentioned

Syndrome has regularly been described by critics, commentators and wiki-editors as a complete monster who repeatedly crosses the moral event horizon. The critic Confused Matthew refers to Syndrome as “so evil and sadistic that it was unpleasant just to watch him on screen”. Admittedly Syndrome does taunt Mr Incredible and his family regularly but the rest of his actions are not evil. Many of them are not “good” by the usual standard but all are well-intentioned and after all, there is no one way to do the right thing. Some are positively good, stripping Syndrome’s actions of the evil everyone else believes he has.

I’m not really sure who you’re arguing with here. Probably a Strawman somewhere but that’s the least of the problems here. You say that Syndrome’s actions aren’t evil but also not “good”. They’re “Well Intentioned”. I suppose we’ll cover this all in your break down later.

[qoute]Syndrome’s first “evil action” in the film would be the murder of the 15 supers killed by his Omnidroid. Although I have mentioned that all of them went on the island of their own free-will, all died in dignity and all received a lot of money that was not the only reason. The real reason is that almost every one of those “Super-heroes” was dangerous to society. Syndrome was doing a medal worthy service by getting rid of them. The 2-disc DVD has fact files for 12 of those 15. I have already mentioned Universal Man and his lack of secret identity. Now I will mention the rest:[/quote]

Murder is generally an Evil Act. Doesn’t matter if they went on their own free will. He still killed them. Lets take a look at the heros!

Psycwave. Power: Mind Control. This alone is dangerous. Mind control can really mess up the world. Too deadly to fall into the wrong hands.[/qoute]

But they hadn’t. So he killed a totally innocent person.

Everseer. Powers: Clairvoyance, Telepathy and Magni-Vision. A mind reader who can observe from a distance and see the future. This is dangerous to the government as he would know supers were being killed. Plus, he was a paranoid germophobe. Certainly the type to believe in conspiracies.

And here we go. Assumption 8 and the catch up point of what we’re going to get into. You’ve stated that there is a Government Created Initiative to kill off the Super Heros. If we had any reason to believe Everseer was someone who was “Certainly” the type to believe conspieracies, he’d be right and he’d actually be a threat. Luckily all this rests on assumptions and nothing else like...evidence in the movies.

Macroburst. Power: Wind Control. This androgynous person was the kid side-kick of Everseer. He/She would likely have been inducted from an early age in Everseer’s conspiracy theories. He may also have been in contact with Everseer.

Assumption 9! Other than that...nothing to say. It hinges on Everseer being someone to believe Conspiracy theories even though he had the power to actually see if they were true or not. We’ll move on.

Phylange. Power: Sound Manipulation. Phylange’s file describes him as selfish and not very popular amongst his peers. This sounds bitter.

Assumption 10! Even if he were bitter...being selfish and bitter are no reasons to kill anyone.

Blazestone. Power: Fire. She was a reformed villain. Her file recommends that she be under supervision. Supervision which would likely be costly.

Killing someone because it costs a lot isn’t a good reason to kill someone. Let alone being a reason to kill anyone at all. Her being a reformed villain also isn’t a reason to kill her just because she might do bad things again.

Downburst. Power: Matter Creation. The husband of Blazestone. He worked for the government even after the ban to find a way to use his powers to mass produce manufactured products. This could be dangerous if Blazestone managed to convince him to turn to evil.

Killing someone because they’re making things for free seems pretty screwed up to me. Also killing someone because their wife may make them “evil” somehow seems pretty sketchy too.

[qoute]Hypershock. Power: Seismic Waves. His file also asks for supervision as he has a bad temper. Earthquakes controlled by a bad-tempered person? Risk.

Killing someone because they're a risk is pretty nasty. Especially when they've not done anything wrong.

Apogee. Power: Gravity Control. This is a lethal power but Apogee sounds on her interview like a nice person. People do change over time though.

Yep! Totally innocent person but hey...people can change right? Might as well murder her before she changes. Just to be safe.

Blitzerman, Tradewind, Vectress. They don’t have files on the DVD. This may mean they were “un-personed” because they were evil.

Assumption 11. We don’t know they’re evil. I like however that you use that word on people who have no evidence of doing bad things...but don’t want to use it when talking about people who have. Amusing that.

Stormicide. Power: Gale Force Bursts. Looked after a sick Uncle. Depending on the circumstances of his inevitable death, this may have bittered her against the world.

Assumption 12 and the same as Phylange above. Someone becoming bitter doesn’t mean you kill them.

Gazerbeam. Power: Laser Eyes. He was a defence attorney who campaigned to remove the ban on super-heroes. Not only would he have noticed the disappearances, but the government would not want the ban to be overturned with dangerous supers like

So the government doesn’t want to overturn the ban but they want to institute super heros with gadgets instead of super powers? And they want to get rid of the person fighting for the rights of the Super Heros right to be Super Heros? Adding to the “Government is an Evil Organization keeping the Super Heros Down” bit I’ll detail fully when we’re done.

Gamma Jack. Power: Radiation. A megalomaniac, who could disintegrate at 100 metres, was only in the super-hero business for the ladies and believed that supers were a “superior race”.

Killing someone for their beliefs is wrong and boarders on mind control. He may be a “megalomaniac” but we don’t hear about him trying to take anything over. Seems like he’s not a threat. No real reason to kill him if he’s not killing others.

Mr Incredible. Power: Super Strength. Punched his boss through five walls and was recently fired from work. A time bomb waiting to go off.

Yep! Another person we should just kill because they may be dangerous!! But seriously no..that’s messed up.

Nearly everyone on this list was dangerous. This would also explain why when Mr Incredible hacked Syndrome’s computer, his wife Elastigirl and Frozone were not on his records despite Syndrome clearly knowing about them. They had not shown any clear signs of violent behaviour.

Others have covered this. Being dangerous isn’t a reason to murder anyone. And Elastigirl and Frozone were on the datalist. Moving on.

Syndrome’s second “evil action” was being a weapons designer. Despite the negative connotations this profession possesses it is an important job. People need weapons so a weapons designer provides a valuable service to society. It is not a job to be vilified.

You’re right. This doesn’t make him evil. Makes him sketchy on an Empathetic level but that’s not a crime. We make pills for it though. However, selling weapons for the express purpose of killing people? Ya. That should be vilified.

Syndrome’s third “evil action” was to torture Mr Incredible. Mr Incredible had sent a distress signal before his capture. As Syndrome knew Mr Incredible had hero contacts (hero contacts who could not be dissuaded by the government) he was trying to gain information as to which one it was. Jack Bauer interrogates people all the time, using much more dangerous methods than electrocution (Syndrome’s weapon of choice) on much weaker men. It is not wrong to torture for information.

He tortued an innocent man. Just because “Jack Bauer” does it doesn’t make it any less wrong. Hell, it doesn’t mean anything at all no matter how much “worse” he uses things. Torture is wrong. Period.

Syndrome’s fourth “evil action” was to send missiles to blow up a plane with both Elastigirl and both her and Mr Incredible’s two eldest children, Violet and Dash. This is believed to be Syndrome’s most evil act, mainly because he did not stop when told that there were children on the plane and he gloated at Mr Incredible upon realising they were people he cared about. However, not only is it not evil to gloat, Syndrome did not “know” there were children on board. He was only told, he did not hear Violet or Dash. He only heard Elastigirl saying there were children aboard. It might have been a lie. He is also completely entitled to blow up Elastigirl. Syndrome lives on a private island. Elastigirl was trespassing on his land. As his island is not under any countries trespass laws, Syndrome is entitled to do what he wants. Elastigirl was clearly affiliated with her husband therefore dangerous. Furthermore, Violet and Dash were not supposed to be on the plane. They were supposed to be in school. At ages 10 and 14 it’s their own fault if they get caught in a dangerous mission. Plus, they skipped school! A truly heinous crime.

Now we actually get to something actually “Evil”. He was going to kill an innocent woman for trespassing and instead of making sure there were kids on board he was just going to blow the plane up regardless. There’s actually a crime called “Crime of Neglegance” and it’s a felony in the United States. Now it’s amusing that you mentioned that the island was outside of any countries jurisdiction here but said it was under government protection above. That protection being from the United States of America. Meaning it’s in United States waters. Subject to the laws of the United States. So I guess I’ll let you revise this. Was the island private property? Or was it in American Waters and thus subject to American Laws. You do know that just because you’ve got Private Property doesn’t mean you get to kill people that trespass on it when ever you please?

You then go on to say that “Well, the kids deserve to die. They’re old enough to make decisions”. I don’t know how to even approach that while being board safe. So I’ll just say....no. You’re wrong and leave it there.

Syndrome’s fifth “evil action” was to not care about Mirage. After the plane blows up, Mr Incredible grabs Mirage and threatens to kill her if Syndrome doesn’t release him. Syndrome calls his bluff and even though Mr Incredible has nothing to lose, he can’t do it. Syndrome taunts him on this, calling him weak. This event sours Mirage’s opinion of Syndrome. But Syndrome was actually showing great wisdom by knowing his opponent. He would have intervened if Mirage was in real danger. But she wasn’t. He made a calculated risk and it paid off. Plus, Mr Incredible was the one making death threats (disrespectful).

You’re right on this not being “evil” as well. It’s again rather Empathetically ambigious but once more that’s not a crime. It lends itself more to Syndrome being a Sociopath but once again, we’ve got pills for that.

I’m again amused by you however calling Mr. Incredible disrespectful for threatening to kill someone when we know that Syndrome and by association Mirage actually -have- killed people. Guess when it’s government sanctioned murder though it’s ok? Even though there’s no evidence that it is at all. So in reality they’re just murdering innocent people for Syndromes glory and vendetta against the Super Community. That’s cool.

Syndrome’s sixth “evil action” was to send his giant Omnidroid to attack a city. This was not supported by the government, but it was a good action. Syndrome’s eventual plan of creating the new generation of supers was a good idea. However, for a major change in world views to occur, a great event must happen to change everyone’s mind, to show everyone that supers are needed. By sending a giant killer robot, impervious to the army and the police, the need for supers is shown. This would also spread peace in the world as people would be too worried about giant robots to fight (Syndrome sent the robot in a rocket which he sent into space first). This plan is in many ways similar to that of Ozymandias from Watchmen. Ozymandias planned to teleport a mutant squid he created into Times Square. This mutant squid would send a psychic wave across New York, killing thousands of people, including the squid. This would unite the world against a common enemy (aliens) and stop all wars (including the cold war). In a way Syndrome is doing this by preventing the threat of Supers rebelling and empowering the common man to be greater.

Well, we know the Omnidroid killed innocent civilians so that seems pretty “evil” to me. So a Government employed agent goes rogue, kills innocent civilians and then

Lets not even try to have this passed as something that it’s not, oh and Assumption 13 by the way, and say that Syndrome set this up as some sort of massive trick to get the public into wanting Super Heros again. He states what his goals are. To make people want him to protect them and to solidify his ego. Ozymandias wasn’t any less of a villain in Watchmen. The above is such a leap of illogic I can’t even say more on it. It’s totally making things up counter to what the actual movie says.

Syndrome’s seventh and final “evil action” was to attempt to kidnap Mr Incredible’s youngest child, baby Jack-Jack and raise him as his own son. This would in the long run have benefitted Jack-Jack. The Incredibles are clearly a dysfunctional family. Mr Incredible punched his boss through 5 walls and at the end of the film does not appear to have got a new job, Dash uses his super-speed to play pranks at school, which his father supports (in a selfish attempt to live through his child), Violet is shy and uses her invisibility to stalk boys and Elastigirl is unable to control her family and prevent them from starting a fight at the dinner table. What kind of lessons would these people be teaching Jack-Jack? Undoubtedly he would be surrounded by bad role-models. This is made worse by the reason why Syndrome failed in his kidnapping: Jack-Jack’s shape-shifting powers allowed him to best Syndrome. As seen from the short film Jack-Jack Attack Jack-Jack shape-shifting is so powerful it allows him to access numerous other powers (including flight, super strength, fire, invulnerability and phasing). This immense power and the inability to use it under the ban would likely have driven Jack-Jack violent and given him a superiority complex in later life. Furthermore, Syndrome was able to get to Jack-Jack because the baby sitter the child’s family left him with gave Jack-Jack flat out to the weapons designer due to her fear of the baby’s powers. Any family who would leave their boy in the hands of such a clueless person are obviously irresponsible. This tradition is continued by the end of the film’s implication that baby Jack-Jack superheroes with his family. One should not have a baby super hero no matter how powerful. It’s dangerous. In such a scenario, a child would be taken into care. This is what Syndrome was doing, he was again helping the government deal with their super problem by being super-social care. Syndrome would have also made a good father. When we see him in the process of kidnapping Jack-Jack he is feeding the babe milk and filling a box with his toys. Is this really the actions of a maniac? Syndrome is also rich. Jack-Jack would have lived a life of luxury with his new father. Syndrome would have spent a lot of time with his son. It is implied that Syndrome was ignored as a child by his parents. He would have done the opposite to any children he had. He would also have been nice to Jack-Jack given that he appears a pleasant person to his henchmen and Mirage. Only when taunting Mr Incredible is he unpleasant. Furthermore, Syndrome told Mr Incredible how he intended to train Jack-Jack as a super. This would prevent Jack-Jack from being a lazy playboy like many heirs and heiresses and allow him to harness and control his powers. This would give him a better experience in the long run.

Stealing someones child is wrong when the child is not in a harmful environment. Jack-Jack wasn’t and saying that it would benefit him in the long run is a massive Assumption number 15. Nothing in the massive text block you put up is ever even hinted at. Once again, there’s no real way to refute anything you said because it’s built on assumptions you don’t have any evidence other than “Well, it happens ya know?” Syndrome stole a baby. Wrong.

Syndrome’s actions can now no longer be seen as evil. They were always for the good of society and never truly for any darker purpose than self-defence or helping others. But so does this lead into Syndrome being a benevolent force? Chapter 3 will reveal all.

Despite your assertions to the contrary, his actions can still be seen as evil. Assumption 14 being that it was “always for the good of society” when we know by just watching the movie that they weren’t. We know that the actions were for an ego driven purpose from start to finish and to finish a vendetta created when he was a boy. Lets go to Chapter Three though....it won’t change anything however.


Chapter 3: Syndrome: Empowering the Common Man

To start looking at what makes Syndrome heroic it is first important to examine his back-story. As a child, Syndrome was a big fan of Mr Incredible before the ban to the extent that he tried to sneak into the latter’s superhero missions under the guise of “Incrediboy”. When I was younger I approved of this decision as I was of the age where I supported such vigilantism. Now I do not. Being a child sidekick is dangerous, irresponsible and could get you killed at an age too early to fully experience life or have a successful career afterwards. Plus, it is implied in the film that Incrediboy had pestered Mr Incredible many times before. Mr Incredible was, dare I say, right to have turned him down. However, he did so very badly. He did not use the argument I did. He told Buddy to go away because “he worked alone” which is very rude. He obviously knew it was wrong as he later apologised to Syndrome for being rude (the sincerity of his apology is doubtful at best as Syndrome had the Omnidroid’s blades to his neck). In fact, since Mr Incredible does work with other heroes during the film (including the flashback) it is highly likely that Mr Incredible would have let Incrediboy join him if not for his lack of powers. Mr Incredibles rejection turned Incrediboy/Syndrome against supers. For you see, this is the key difference between Syndrome and Mr Incredible that makes Syndrome a better role model: ambition.

This is the origin story of Syndrome. Was Mr. Incredible right in turning the boy away? Yes. Was he rude to a boy who he was tired of pestering him? Well...ya probably but being rude isn’t a reason to get murdered. It’s not even a reason not to speak to someone again. You assume (16) that the apology wasn’t earnest but you’re not the judge of that. You then chide the fact he doesn’t use your argument...so what? Moving on.

Syndrome knows he does not have powers and he has the dream of being a super hero (a good dream if you start at adult). He also knows he can’t be a superhero due to the ban. So instead he becomes a supervillain/weapons designer. Syndrome knew as a child that he was a good inventor (as Incrediboy he had Rocket-boots he made himself. As a child). He followed these talents to their natural conclusion and designed weapons. Not only that, his weapons are revolutionary. To date no one has made rocket boots, flying saucers, killer robots and zero point energy (an energy that levitates and immobilises anything inside it.). Syndrome managed to rise to the top and reach a position to create his utopia. Mr Incredible has no ambition. After the ban he could not be a superhero but he could have used his super strength to be a police man, fire man or builder. He becomes an insurance salesmen, a job that not only does not need his strength but is the opposite to helping people (to the extent that Mr Incredible loses the company money by giving his clients advice to how to navigate the system and punches his boss through 5 walls due to frustration with the little man’s lack of empathy). He instead has to do his superheroing against the law and in secret. This is not a positive role model. This is a wreck who lives in a broken family and is unable to follow his dreams even though he could easily. Whereas Syndrome was a disadvantaged child who rose to the top and became successful. Furthermore, according to Brad Bird (Incredibles creator) Syndrome gained his name because he is antisocial as in “antisocial behaviour syndrome”. Do you know who else had that? Ludwig van Beethoven, Winston Churchill and Steve Jobs. All inspirational people. Syndrome can now join them as a pioneer of weapons design and give his message to the world.

I like how you say that it logically follows that if you’re a good inventor you’re going to make weapons. I don’t know how you got to that conclusion but this whole thing has been one long mess so I don’t think it’s going to really matter.

You then assert that no one else has made all those cool gadgets so he’s a pioneer! Assumption 17!!!

You then list a few people who had Anti-Social Disorder, which ya know...leads credence to him being a Sociopath that I stated above, but then you make the link that hey! That means people with Anti-Social Disorder must be great innovaters! Syndrome is a great Innovater! That....Do I have to pull out Logic 101 and show you how much of a gaping fallacy that is?

Speaking of message, I will now go on to mention the film’s flawed and warped moral. Whilst The Incredibles has an obvious message on the importance of family, this was a co-incidence and not, according to Brad Bird, the film’s intended message. The true message of the film is that some people are naturally better than others and that these people are being suppressed and held back by society. Now this message has a ring of truth, but it is not only not very family friendly it is also un-democratic. Society is there to represent the interests of the majority whilst making sure that every minority is happy. The idea of people being better than others is discrimination and a philosophy that leads to genocide. This is further warped when the better people are superhuman beings who can control minds and disintegrate people on a whim. These people aren’t rulers, they’re threats which no one can handle and create a brutal caste system. This is not a positive message. Syndrome on the other hand advocates a positive message. Syndrome wants to create a new era of super-heroes who are ordinary people relying on gadgets to catch criminals, just like people such as Ironman or Batman. This is expressed mainly by the infamous quote “When everyone’s Super no one will be.”. This is not a negative message. It represents a technological utopia where people not only have a better quality of life, but they are also equal, which makes them more diverse and removes discrimination. As the first gadget- based super, Syndrome is an inspirational citizen leader, inspiring others to follow his path. I have previously mentioned Syndrome’s similarity to Ozymandias and his message of world peace. However, what I did not mention is that his plan worked. World peace was brought about by the mass deaths of New York City. The protagonists of the graphic novel all agree that the plan was a good idea after all and promise not to tell anyone that Ozymandias was responsible, letting him get away scot free. His plan had a positive result and rightly so. Syndrome unfortunately doesn’t get this. Although he is the first costumed vigilante on the scene of the attack, he drops his remote for the robot before he can finish destroying it and gets knocked out, recovering shortly after the robot is destroyed. How is it destroyed? When the Incredibles get on the scene, it overwhelms them and is only defeated when Mr Incredible finds the remote and finishes what Syndrome started. I see this as unfair. Without Syndrome, the robot could not be stopped and all he did was drop his remote. Does that mean he does not deserve credit for stopping the robot just because he is clumsy? Just because he does not have powers? This is blatant discrimination and disrespect. Powered people stole Syndrome’s plan and didn’t give Syndrome any credit. I think Syndrome deserved a second chance due to his positive message as opposed to the warped one of the supers. But this was not the worst thing to happen to Syndrome.

So if we ignore the creators statement of what the meaning of the film was and go with what you think it is, which you assert is it’s actual meaning, than Syndrome is a good guy? Nope. He’s still just as wrong. I would actually say evil because he killed innocent people.

A subject of The Incredibles that is close to my heart is the matter of Syndrome’s death. After his failed attempt to kidnap Jack-Jack, Syndrome gets into his private jet, swearing vengeance on the Incredibles. As he does so, Mr Incredible picks up his car (a car Syndrome bought for him) and throws it straight at Syndrome (a glaring lack of respect). This causes the jet to explode, killing Syndrome in the process. The movie tries to make Syndrome look like he killed himself by having him thrown into his jet engine and still alive, but getting his cape caught in the engine (the film had previously discussed how capes were the cause of numerous super deaths due to them catching on things) and him being dragged into the engine by his cape screaming. However, given that he would not be in the jet engine if not for Mr Incredible throwing the car, that the plane would have exploded anyway (it did not explode because Syndrome’s corpse got stuck in the engine, planes are designed to prevent that) and that Syndrome’s rocket boots were broken by Jack-Jack, Mr Incredible murdered Syndrome. There are several problems with him doing this. The first is that it was pointless. The government had already said that they had frozen Syndrome’s assets and were waiting to arrest him when he came back to his island. Mr Incredible knew this and had no reason to doubt it (I have already shown that I do). Syndrome certainly did not know about this. Therefore, it was pointless to kill Syndrome as he would have been arrested anyway. Even if the Incredibles wanted to capture Syndrome themselves, Violet could have incapacitated him with one of her force fields. There was no need to kill him. Another problem with killing Syndrome is the unwritten law. This law is that superheroes should not kill. This is because if they kill they are not heroic as they have killed in cold blood, making them at best vigilantes who take the law into their own hands and at worse villains themselves. To prevent this super heroes should show they are “super” by not killing. Those who do kill are merely anti-heroes. Syndrome understood this, that is why not only did he refer to himself as a villain (giving him the ability to kill if he wanted) but he did not kill anyone personally. He merely used his paralysing beam to incapacitate his foes. He had every opportunity to kill the Incredibles but he did not. Mr Incredible did not need to kill Syndrome but he did. This makes Syndrome the better man. The final reason why it was wrong to kill Syndrome is because it makes Mr Incredible a jerk. As previously mentioned, Syndrome had taunted Mr Incredible on how not killing makes him weak. This is false. Not killing someone you don’t like (especially when you can do so and the other person tried to kill your family) takes a great amount of will power. By not killing Syndrome, Mr Incredible could have shown him that not killing makes you stronger than one who kills to get what they want. It could have been a poignant moment and changed my opinion of both costumed persons. Instead, Mr Incredible was weak and gave into his urge to kill. This ultimately makes him a weaker man who cannot resist his primal impulses instead of a true hero. As a result, he is less of a hero than Syndrome.


In conclusion, Syndrome may not have been the best of people. Certainly he did many actions which could be labelled evil. However, his message was a good one. He wanted a utopia of equality and diversity and in my opinion, this goal is greater than the selfish goal of the protagonists of re-consolidating their power base. But at the end of the day, if The Incredibles can be interpreted in so many different ways on so many different levels, then that must mean it’s a pretty good film.

And this brings us to the end of your meandering....rant? Was it a rant? I don’t know what it was really but it wasn’t a very convincing dissertation on how Syndrome wasn’t a villain. So Mr. Incredible is evil for throwing a car (A car Syndrome bought for him! OH HOW COULD HE! That’s DISRESPECTFUL!) to protect his son who Syndrome was going to steal away. But somehow Syndrome (Because he died) is the real hero in this because all he wanted to give out his powers to everyone even though he never mentions that. Except we got foreshadowing that Capes are a bad idea because they’ll get you killed. It’s meaningless to say “Well, it only happened because of X. If it happened Y things would be different.” Things didn’t happen any other way than what they happened. Discussing them in the context of this...debate? doesn’t mean anything or get us anywhere. The end result was Syndrome was stealing the



And now for my closing...and I suppose reward because I actually went through your whole thing. Gotta say it was fun by the middle and...just kind of a brush up by the end.

Based on over arching assumptions based off...nothing and ignoring the actual messages of the story along with half the plot you could build a pretty good case that Syndrome wasn’t a villain but a hero all along. Here’s the problem though.

1. If the government is indeed trying to murder all the super heros because they’re to expensive to maintain, the easier solution is to actually repeal the ban. Not start a global conspiracy where they hire one guy to do the dirty work for them no matter what they owe him. However, we see in general the Government doesn’t really have a problem with the Supers save for one guy saying he’s tired of relocating Mr. Incredible.

2. You generally ignore the bad things Syndrome does while oddly making smaller issues the other heros do or in some cases are never even having been implied to do to levels of true atrocity. You find disrespect and “bitterness” to be much more “evil” than you know...killing innocent lives and kidnapping.

3. The number of assumptions needed to even get to your basic premise, along with the various logical fallacies and inconsistancies(Syndrome is on a government protected island but it’s not a government island) detract from your over all message here. You say torture isn’t wrong, claim the murder of children is permissable when the person doesn’t know about it and that selling weapons with the clear intent of killing people isn’t to be vilified. Those things...ya. They’re wrong on an vilified level and even on a legal level.

4. A subset of the above. You bring other sources into your argument that have little to no connection at all with your main point. You mention TV shows and famous people to excuse the actions of the person you’re defending. Steve Jobs may have had Anti-Social Disorder but that wasn’t the cause of his innovation. And even if it wasn’t Steve Jobs didn’t create devices that destroyed city blocks (That we know of). So what if...Jack Buar or who ever tortured people? That’s still wrong no matter who does it.


Over all...I suppose I don’t agree. Now what’s my prize? Are you just having a laugh here and not being serious?

TL:DR- Read Jayngfet's response. It basically sums my response up pretty well.

[Pokonic]

A good person with power is never a Danger. We WANT the power into the hands of good people.

Dang it Sunken, you have actualy put me on the same side of a argument as SD.

Secondly, I realy having nothing to point out that has not been pointed out already, but I will state the general statement that your logic is flawed.

[Knaight]

Most of my points have already been made. However, what has yet to be touched is that part 2 of your argument hinges on what Syndrome intended. What Syndrome intended is completely irrelevant, as the results of his actions are the exact same whether he was acting from malice or trying to help. Moreover, I'd point out that your justification of torture is predicated on Jack Bauer being a good person. This is incredibly sketchy on its own, and really doesn't hold up when being shy is sufficient to condemn Violet as a character, and having a family member die is enough to condemn Phylange.

[Jayngfet]

Most of my points have already been made. However, what has yet to be touched is that part 2 of your argument hinges on what Syndrome intended. What Syndrome intended is completely irrelevant, as the results of his actions are the exact same whether he was acting from malice or trying to help. Moreover, I'd point out that your justification of torture is predicated on Jack Bauer being a good person. This is incredibly sketchy on its own, and really doesn't hold up when being shy is sufficient to condemn Violet as a character, and having a family member die is enough to condemn Phylange.

What I love about this statement is how it assumes that not only is Jack Bauer a good person, but it assumes that Jack Bauers techniques are effective outside primetime Fox television.

I've said this before, but let me repeat myself: Torture has been proven, Objectively, with actual evidence, to not workhttp://www.popsci.com/military-aviat...affects-memory.

Anyone using torture at this point is literally only doing it either because they're too stupid to know what they're doing, trying to fill out petty power fantasies, or else for whatever reason not wanting the actual truth to work out. This isn't even a good vs evil thing, this is a thing that plain doesn't work in real life and often has negative progress in terms of actually getting the information you want out of someone. I mean, out of every case of known torture in the modern world how many of them do you know of that actually revealed major information right on time in ways that couldn't be done better otherwise, because I sure can't think of any.

[Dienekes]

I really hope the OP is a joke or troll. Otherwise, it's kind of scary.

I think he has brought his opinions on Syndrome and the Incredibles once or twice before, each other time it gets rather vehemently shot down.

I can see a case made for seeing Syndome as sympathetic (not one I agree with, mind you, but a case can be made, Mr I did act a bit harshly too him)

But calling a man who committed multiple counts of unrepentant murder, bombed a plane, unleashed a giant killer robot on a city, and then kidnapped a child a hero is well... I don't want to get into what I think of a person who believes that.

[thubby]

syndrome is unquestioningly a villain. sanctioned by the government or not, he murdered a dozen people for no sensible reason and endangered (at least) an entire city.

what makes the incredibles so good as a story is that he's so close, though. he could have been ironman, he could have done so much to help people. BUT HE DIDN'T.

instead he took his petty jealousy and hatred and let it twist him into a vile, deceitful glory-seeker who risked the lives of everyone just to look good.

[Anarion]

.
• Blazestone. Power: Fire. She was a reformed villain. Her file recommends that she be under supervision. Supervision which would likely be costly.

There are a lot of things going on in this argument, which in some ways actually makes this a great thread for getting people talking about this stuff.

However, that line there, that's where you lost me completely. Your whole argument is that this particular person should be killed because supervising her costs too much.

That is unacceptable. You can't so callously place a value on a person's life like that. Here, look what Kpenguin posted.

And now for some words from our expert commentators


"You see, Charles? How readily the humans leap to contain and destroy us, how easily they justify their prejudice? Humanity and mutantkind cannot co-exist. There can be no compromise.


"Give them time, Erik. They're not all like this..."

So, Magneto, we're not all like that. Most of us here believe that individuals deserve rights like their lives, even if their life costs the government a little more money than someone else's life.

[Lord Seth]

I mean, out of every case of known torture in the modern world how many of them do you know of that actually revealed major information right on time in ways that couldn't be done better otherwise, because I sure can't think of any.

This seems to be an unfair question, because there's a high probability any such examples would be top secret and not available to the public.

[Jayngfet]

This seems to be an unfair question, because there's a high probability any such examples would be top secret and not available to the public.

Yes, but we know of several instances where torture has happened to multiple people over lengthy periods of time, in some cases where superiors ordered things to get WORSE.

The funny thing is even when they get found out, even when the people defending that kind of thing bring it up, I've never heard of a single useful piece of intel to come from it. One would assume if it's something that was ordered and it got results and the bad thing got found out, you would at least bring up the evidence that it worked, contrary to studies showing it would not often carried out by other people in your own military.

So we're left to assume either the people doing it failed to get any meaningful results and the science is correct, or that somehow they have magical information that justifies literally everything they did over lengthy periods of time that they're withholding for unknown reasons. Considering that again, multiple studies carried out by people from both independant third parties and within the actual army have evidence pointing to A, it means we're basically forced to admit that what they're doing is petty, costly, and a quite frankly morally disgusting waste that's producing nothing of value anyway.

[Sunken Valley]

I don't think so; Sunken Valley tend to have a different way of looking at things than the rest of us.

How so? We've only argued about this one point.

Also, the mind controller. She made men dump their girl friends for her and was expressing stress in her psychiatry job about people not solving their problems.

Blazestone is extra dangerous for her connection to downburst aka government.

The OOTS torture people and most of them are good.

Back for more later.

[Ravens_cry]

Really, when has the Order of the Stick tortured people?
Interrogated yes, but torture? You'll need to refresh my memory, I haven't recently done an archive binge.

[Tebryn]

Also, the mind controller. She made men dump their girl friends for her and was expressing stress in her psychiatry job about people not solving their problems.

So what? The first only makes her kinda mean spirited while the second is something that field has to deal with all the time. Do you think psychiatrists don't get upset when their patients show no sign of getting better? They're in the profession to do just that.

Blazestone is extra dangerous for her connection to downburst aka government.

How so? Not only have you pointed out that Downburst -worked- as in no longer works for the Government...the Government in the movie isn't the same as what you think it is. So once again...so what?

The OOTS torture people and most of them are good.

Ya, Belkar has but he's actually evil. Once again you're using other areas to prove your point when there's no connection what so ever or actually confirms what you're denying. Syndrome is evil.

[Aotrs Commander]

And now for some words from our expert commentators


"You see, Charles? How readily the humans leap to contain and destroy us, how easily they justify their prejudice? Humanity and mutantkind cannot co-exist. There can be no compromise.


"Give them time, Erik. They're not all like this..."

The thought had crossed my mind as well, though I could never had made the point quite as eloquently...

[Killer Angel]

I really hope the OP is a joke or troll. Otherwise, it's kind of scary.

SV is not a troll, and is not joking. On this issue, he takes very deeply the role of the Devil's advocate.

And now for some words from our expert commentators

Am I bad if I admit that, probably, Magneto is the BEG that I sympathize more with?

[Aotrs Commander]

I'm I bad if I admit that, probably, Magneto is the BEG that I sympathize more with?

Well, Mags is sorta the poster-boy for "sympathetic villain"; so much so he's spent about a third of his time as one of the heroes, so...!

[The Succubus]

Flawed logic or not, that was a pretty entertaining read SV. While some of the morals are up for debate there's a lot of heartless but pragmatic sense in what he's said as well.

Unfortunately, humans as a species are not very good at heartless pragmatism.

Also, kpenguin is awesome.