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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Default Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?

    Forgot to mention!

    OOTS torturing:

    Roy dangling the Oracle

    Celia electrocuting a bound Nale

    V rigging Belkar's coffee and charming Muskrats

    Miko putting Belkar in the hole

    The saga of the dominated Kobold.


    Torture is evil indeed!
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    Default Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravens_cry View Post
    Reminds me of another thread where it was claimed with all apparent seriousness that because unhappiness exists or even has the potential to exist, if one had the opportunity to go back in time and prevent the creation of the universe, one had a moral and ethical imperative to do so.
    I disagreed rather strenuously.
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    That thought struck me even as it happened. Where in the U.S. is suicide legal? Bob was stopping a crime, keeping a man from dying. That's going to have to be a civil issue in seeking recompense. I'm just baffled that the Feds ended up eating the bill.
    The suicider might not have won his case, but the people on the train probably won theirs since it kinda was Mr Incredible's fault that they got hurt.
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  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Default Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    Forgot to mention!

    OOTS torturing:

    Roy dangling the Oracle (Somewhat torture)

    Celia electrocuting a bound Nale (This is torture)

    V rigging Belkar's coffee and charming Muskrats (This is not torture)

    Miko putting Belkar in the hole (Yes, putting an evil murderer into a jail cell is real torture.)

    The saga of the dominated Kobold. (Not torture. Making him eat the cat's crap, yeah, that's rude and mean, but not torture.)

    Torture is evil indeed!
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    Default Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockphed View Post
    The suicider might not have won his case, but the people on the train probably won theirs since it kinda was Mr Incredible's fault that they got hurt.
    Yes, it is his fault that they only got hurt instead of dying. How careless.
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    Default Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    Forgot to mention!

    OOTS torturing:
    Roy dangling the Oracle
    That's probably your best example.
    Celia electrocuting a bound Nale
    That wasn't torture, that was an act of anger against a foe that intentionally needled her into attacking him. In his own words "totally worth it"

    V rigging Belkar's coffee and charming Muskrats
    A prank. Deadly against a Commonor, but not a PC with class levels. V has always been rather morally ambiguous mind
    Miko putting Belkar in the hole
    Not a member of OOTS.

    The saga of the dominated Kobold.
    Domination is pretty evil depending on how you use it, but it's not torture though it could be used for such. But then, so could a Cure Light Wounds, and not just on undead.

    Torture is evil indeed!
    Yes, yes it is.
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    Default Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?

    And the only reason the OOTS forum isn't covered in threads about those deeds is that there's a ban on "morally justified" threads.
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    Default Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    Chapter 2: Syndrome the Well Intentioned
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    Syndrome has regularly been described by critics, commentators and wiki-editors as a complete monster who repeatedly crosses the moral event horizon. The critic Confused Matthew refers to Syndrome as “so evil and sadistic that it was unpleasant just to watch him on screen”. Admittedly Syndrome does taunt Mr Incredible and his family regularly but the rest of his actions are not evil.
    er... yes they are.
    Many of them are not “good” by the usual standard but all are well-intentioned and after all, there is no one way to do the right thing.
    That's the sort of argument you get from someone who throws a hand grenade into traffic because he wants to cross the streets..yes..he could have waited for the light to turn green..but there is no one way to do the right thing, right?
    Some are positively good, stripping Syndrome’s actions of the evil everyone else believes he has.
    name one, that wasn't a minor element of a plot to commit greater evil, or that wasn't self-serving to his delusion of grandeur.
    Syndrome’s first “evil action” in the film would be the murder of the 15 supers killed by his Omnidroid. Although I have mentioned that all of them went on the island of their own free-will, all died in dignity and all received a lot of money that was not the only reason.
    they went on the island of their own free will. we don't know, but let's assume they did.
    do you call decomposing in an underwater cavern, away from anyone's sight and without a proper burrial, no notice given to your loved ones and nobody to praise your deeds dignity? this isn't dignity even to the Wagner opus you refer to when talking about "warrior's death" and other such. if it were, it would still not apply. Nordic myths and modern day western civilisation have very different values. I can promise you, nobody at Pixar was thinking about famous last stands or Valhalla when they were writing this plot. As for the money.. who is to say that those who died actually got the money promised to them? then again, I've already stated in rebuttal nr 1 that money may not have played a role with the previous supers.
    cops choose put themselves at risk for money and other reasons..and "die with dignity"..that doesn't make the thugs that shoot at them right to do so
    The real reason is that almost every one of those “Super-heroes” was dangerous to society.
    give me a solid enough reason and a rifle..and I can be as dangerous to society as any superhero.
    Syndrome was doing a medal worthy service by getting rid of them.
    yeah..now I know you're just trolling. the only reason I still continue in my reply is that I have nothing better to do. You're praising a serial killer. Had he been killing known criminals, mass murderers or dictators you may have had a leg to stand on, albeit a shaky one.. Syndrome is killing heroes. people to whom other people looked up to and have their lives to thank to.
    it's just getting stupid...but as I said, I'm bored.
    The 2-disc DVD has fact files for 12 of those 15. I have already mentioned Universal Man and his lack of secret identity. Now I will mention the rest:

    • Psycwave. Power: Mind Control. This alone is dangerous. Mind control can really mess up the world. Too deadly to fall into the wrong hands.
    true.. except it wasn't falling into the wrong hands. it was being used for good things.. and was then put to rest during the years after the lawsuits.
    • Everseer. Powers: Clairvoyance, Telepathy and Magni-Vision. A mind reader who can observe from a distance and see the future. This is dangerous to the government as he would know supers were being killed. Plus, he was a paranoid germophobe. Certainly the type to believe in conspiracies.
    yes..because believing in conspiracies is clear sign that one is dangerous and must be killed...waitaminute.. who is arguing that Syndrome and the government conspired together here?..oh, right..that's you. better not tell the feds.
    anyway, that would be true IF the government knew about it..and you're the only one claiming it did.
    I'm actually surprised.. this super should have seen the plot coming and have survived it.
    • Macroburst. Power: Wind Control. This androgynous person was the kid side-kick of Everseer. He/She would likely have been inducted from an early age in Everseer’s conspiracy theories. He may also have been in contact with Everseer.
    what conspiracy theories? oh..wait..the ones you theorize Everseer was harbouring... "would likely.. may have..".. very solid argument.. yeah..right.
    • Phylange. Power: Sound Manipulation. Phylange’s file describes him as selfish and not very popular amongst his peers. This sounds bittered.
    and being bitter is reason enough to make one dangerous and worthy of being killed off?
    • Blazestone. Power: Fire. She was a reformed villain. Her file recommends that she be under supervision. Supervision which would likely be costly.
    .. so.. let's kill her.. because that makes so much more sense and doesn't have a chance of needing further cover ups
    • Downburst. Power: Matter Creation. The husband of Blazestone. He worked for the government even after the ban to find a way to use his powers to mass produce manufactured products. This could be dangerous if Blazestone managed to convince him to turn to evil.
    what part of "worked for the government" escaped your attention? and "could be..if another surveilled character who has no reason to turn evil turns evil and then turns him evil too.." sounds really convincing.. keep going.. you might convince someone..eventually
    • Hypershock. Power: Seismic Waves. His file also asks for supervision as he has a bad temper. Earthquakes controlled by a bad-tempered person? Risk.
    what I find hilarious is that you want us to believe that you actually believe that these risks and remotely potential dangers are ground for a whitewash of Syndrome's character.. clearly killing off all these people who might potentially completely flip personality and go from heroes to villains at the toss of a coin.. is the action of a misunderstood paladin of truth and justice.
    • Apogee. Power: Gravity Control. This is a lethal power but Apogee sounds on her interview like a nice person. People do change over time though.
    you sound like an old neighbour I once had.. always ready to assume the worst of people who he had daily proof of that they were practically saints...and on no grounds whatsoever.
    • Blitzerman, Tradewind, Vectress. They don’t have files on the DVD. This may mean they were “un-personed” because they were evil.
    it is getting boring now.. you're not even making an effort.. clearly these must be alien entities, planted there by an evil mastermind from a parallel universe, don't you agree?
    • Stormicide. Power: Gale Force Bursts. Looked after a sick Uncle. Depending on the circumstances of his inevitable death, this may have bittered her against the world.
    or maybe the uncle left her a pot of money and you're entirely making stuff up?
    • Gazerbeam. Power: Laser Eyes. He was a defence attorney who campaigned to remove the ban on super-heroes. Not only would he have noticed the disappearances, but the government would not want the ban to be overturned with dangerous supers like:
    .. ah, so yeah.. a man who operates perfectly within the law and chooses the public arena of a courtroom must have evil in mind or is an obstacle to a "just and proper" plot to exterminate supers.. so..better kill him
    • Gamma Jack. Power: Radiation. A megalomaniac, who could disintegrate at 100 metres, was only in the super-hero business for the ladies and believed that supers were a “superior race”.
    .. I know plenty of people who joined some form of law enforcement for the uniform and the salary.. but yeah.. you've killed so many already.. might as well kill Gamma Jack too..after all...nobody likes a ladies man.
    • Mr Incredible. Power: Super Strength. Punched his boss through five walls and was recently fired from work. A time bomb waiting to go off.
    and the personal involvement, the fact that the whole plan was targeted towards him because of a childhood grudge and the twisted ego of a whiny little kid have nothing to do with this, of course.
    Nearly everyone on this list was dangerous. This would also explain why when Mr Incredible hacked Syndrome’s computer, his wife Elastigirl and Frozone were not on his records despite Syndrome clearly knowing about them. They had not shown any clear signs of violent behaviour.
    wrong.. they both were on the computer.
    Frozone in fact was the next target.. the only reason they changed towards Mr Incredible is that they'd been looking for him all along. Once they found him they had no use for Frozone anymore. Elastigirl was on the system too. the only thing that was missing was her location.
    Syndrome’s second “evil action” was being a weapons designer. Despite the negative connotations this profession possesses it is an important job. People need weapons so a weapons designer provides a valuable service to society. It is not a job to be vilified.
    I don't know who has claimed that his job was an evil action in and of itself. what is evil there is the manner in which he researches and develops his weapons...using human targets. is that not evil now? just what kind of moral code are you operating on exactly?
    Syndrome’s third “evil action” was to torture Mr Incredible. Mr Incredible had sent a distress signal before his capture. As Syndrome knew Mr Incredible had hero contacts (hero contacts who could not be dissuaded by the government) he was trying to gain information as to which one it was. Jack Bauer interrogates people all the time, using much more dangerous methods than electrocution (Syndrome’s weapon of choice) on much weaker men.
    Jack Bauer gets charged with criminal charges precisely for his methods..and he's the hero of his universe.
    It is not wrong to torture for information.
    seriously? can you honestly write this and then claim that you're not trolling?
    Syndrome’s fourth “evil action” was to send missiles to blow up a plane with both Elastigirl and both her and Mr Incredible’s two eldest children, Violet and Dash. This is believed to be Syndrome’s most evil act, mainly because he did not stop when told that there were children on the plane and he gloated at Mr Incredible upon realising they were people he cared about. However, not only is it not evil to gloat, Syndrome did not “know” there were children on board.
    it is not evil to gloat about having won a tournament at whatever sport you practice. gloating over unwarranted murder counts as evil in my book.
    He was only told, he did not hear Violet or Dash. He only heard Elastigirl saying there were children aboard. It might have been a lie.
    at no point in the movie does he seem to question that there are children aboard. at no point in the movie does he show that he is anything but satisfied about the murder of whoever was on the plane.
    He is also completely entitled to blow up Elastigirl. Syndrome lives on a private island. Elastigirl was trespassing on his land.
    yeah.. no. I am pretty sure that nobody is entitled to randomly shoot trespassers. certainly not trespassers who announce themselves and require information, trespassers who he had no way of knowing that they were related to the distress signal. trespassers who he did not give fair warning to. I don't know for sure..but if I happen to walk on someone's driveway without a clear display of "intention to do harm" and someone shoots me up.. I think I may be entitled to compensation.
    As his island is not under any countries trespass laws, Syndrome is entitled to do what he wants.
    is it not? and who told you that?
    Elastigirl was clearly affiliated with her husband therefore dangerous.
    except he had no idea who was on board the plane or that whoever was on board the plane was connected to the homing signal.
    Furthermore, Violet and Dash were not supposed to be on the plane. They were supposed to be in school. At ages 10 and 14 it’s their own fault if they get caught in a dangerous mission. Plus, they skipped school! A truly heinous crime.
    yeah, yeah.. we get it..you're trolling.
    Syndrome’s fifth “evil action” was to not care about Mirage. After the plane blows up, Mr Incredible grabs Mirage and threatens to kill her if Syndrome doesn’t release him. Syndrome calls his bluff and even though Mr Incredible has nothing to lose, he can’t do it. Syndrome taunts him on this, calling him weak. This event sours Mirage’s opinion of Syndrome.
    I don't know who called it an evil action.. all considered, compared to the rest, this is pretty minor even though it ultimately seals his fate.
    But Syndrome was actually showing great wisdom by knowing his opponent.
    a wise man would have known this would have alienated his closest hench-woman.
    He would have intervened if Mirage was in real danger.
    says who?
    But she wasn’t. He made a calculated risk and it paid off. Plus, Mr Incredible was the one making death threats (disrespectful).
    seriously..I'm trying to be nice here and to really reply to you point by point.. could you at least not take the piss by shouting it off the rooftops that you're just messing around? it kind of spoils the game.
    Syndrome’s sixth “evil action” was to send his giant Omnidroid to attack a city. This was not supported by the government, but it was a good action.
    we've covered this one.. no good action can or should start with random murder of people.
    Syndrome’s eventual plan of creating the new generation of supers was a good idea. However, for a major change in world views to occur, a great event must happen to change everyone’s mind, to show everyone that supers are needed.
    a prime example of the Stavro Blofeld school of thought.
    By sending a giant killer robot, impervious to the army and the police, the need for supers is shown. This would also spread peace in the world as people would be too worried about giant robots to fight (Syndrome sent the robot in a rocket which he sent into space first). This plan is in many ways similar to that of Ozymandias from Watchmen. Ozymandias planned to teleport a mutant squid he created into Times Square. This mutant squid would send a psychic wave across New York, killing thousands of people, including the squid. This would unite the world against a common enemy (aliens) and stop all wars (including the cold war). In a way Syndrome is doing this by preventing the threat of Supers rebelling and empowering the common man to be greater.
    and we all know what a super-nice guy Ozymandrias was.

    Syndrome’s seventh and final “evil action” was to attempt to kidnap Mr Incredible’s youngest child, baby Jack-Jack and raise him as his own son. This would in the long run have benefitted Jack-Jack. The Incredibles are clearly a dysfunctional family. Mr Incredible punched his boss through 5 walls and at the end of the film does not appear to have got a new job, Dash uses his super-speed to play pranks at school, which his father supports (in a selfish attempt to live through his child), Violet is shy and uses her invisibility to stalk boys and Elastigirl is unable to control her family and prevent them from starting a fight at the dinner table. What kind of lessons would these people be teaching Jack-Jack? Undoubtedly he would be surrounded by bad role-models. This is made worse by the reason why Syndrome failed in his kidnapping: Jack-Jack’s shape-shifting powers allowed him to best Syndrome. As seen from the short film Jack-Jack Attack Jack-Jack shape-shifting is so powerful it allows him to access numerous other powers (including flight, super strength, fire, invulnerability and phasing). This immense power and the inability to use it under the ban would likely have driven Jack-Jack violent and given him a superiority complex in later life. Furthermore, Syndrome was able to get to Jack-Jack because the baby sitter the child’s family left him with gave Jack-Jack flat out to the weapons designer due to her fear of the baby’s powers. Any family who would leave their boy in the hands of such a clueless person are obviously irresponsible. This tradition is continued by the end of the film’s implication that baby Jack-Jack superheroes with his family. One should not have a baby super hero no matter how powerful. It’s dangerous. In such a scenario, a child would be taken into care. This is what Syndrome was doing, he was again helping the government deal with their super problem by being super-social care.
    yeah.. I'm getting tired now.. rebuking this bit isn't even fun because you're clearly just spouting nonsense to try and keep us entertained.. this particular bit is so moronic however it isn't even funny anymore.
    Syndrome would have also made a good father.
    I apologize.. this bit is even worse
    When we see him in the process of kidnapping Jack-Jack he is feeding the babe milk and filling a box with his toys. Is this really the actions of a maniac? Syndrome is also rich. Jack-Jack would have lived a life of luxury with his new father. Syndrome would have spent a lot of time with his son. It is implied that Syndrome was ignored as a child by his parents. He would have done the opposite to any children he had. He would also have been nice to Jack-Jack given that he appears a pleasant person to his henchmen and Mirage. Only when taunting Mr Incredible is he unpleasant. Furthermore, Syndrome told Mr Incredible how he intended to train Jack-Jack as a super. This would prevent Jack-Jack from being a lazy playboy like many heirs and heiresses and allow him to harness and control his powers. This would give him a better experience in the long run.
    and of course the fact that Syndrome doesn't want anyone but him to be or appear super will not pose a problem or a threat to jack-jack in the future..
    Syndrome’s actions can now no longer be seen as evil. They were always for the good of society and never truly for any darker purpose than self-defence or helping others. But so does this lead into Syndrome being a benevolent force? Chapter 3 will reveal all.
    honestly? chapter 1 was somewhat entertaining..one could almost take your post for one that actually believed in his alternative theory.. this one could have worked if you had left it at facts and not tried to break the fourth wall to tell the reader that you yourself don't believe a word of what you're writing..I am seriously considering to give chapter 3 a miss
    Last edited by dehro; 2012-08-08 at 06:41 PM.
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    Default Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    Forgot to mention!

    OOTS torturing:

    Roy dangling the Oracle Not torture as much as a physical threat

    Celia electrocuting a bound Nale Not torture as much as attacking in a rage

    V rigging Belkar's coffee and charming Muskrats Not torture as much as a prank

    Miko putting Belkar in the hole Not torture at all. It was basically solitary confinement

    The saga of the dominated Kobold. Mostly not torture but iffy. It's mostly done by the evil member of the party and the morally ambigious member of the party.


    Torture is evil indeed!
    Yes it is evil. It should be also noted that the OotS are not moral paragons.
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    Default Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?

    Did... did someone just try to justify torture using a webcomic?

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    Default Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitten Champion View Post
    Did... did someone just try to justify torture using a webcomic?
    And television shows yes. Also arms dealing.

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    Default Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?

    Whatever else there is to debate about this movie, this discussion immediately brought something to mind for me:



    Quote Originally Posted by Kitten Champion View Post
    He's essentially Lex Luthor, I suppose if you're Ayn Rand or something you could find him praiseworthy.
    Also this.
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    First, please don't start threads with ideas you don't support just to see what reactions you get. That's almost the definition of trolling.

    Second, the whole "blue text" thing is not a forum rule or even a recommended procedure. If someone wants to do it in their own posts, fine, but everyone should stop telling people that they "need to" or "should have" posted in blue just because they're being sarcastic/ironic/whatever.

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    Default Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockphed View Post
    The suicider might not have won his case, but the people on the train probably won theirs since it kinda was Mr Incredible's fault that they got hurt.
    Actually, I'm pretty sure the people in the train would lose their case.

    It's
    a) Not proven that he was the cause in fact of their accident because had he not acted they still might have been killed or injured
    b) not proven that he acted negligently even though something bad happened (there are accidents in the world that nobody is allowed to sue over)
    c) not proven that the link between his actions and the damage caused fulfills the requirements of proximate cause, which, in a nutshell, says that just because something terrible happens because of something you did doesn't mean you can get sued if it was so unlikely to happen that nobody could have predicted it. A good example here is that if you accidentally tap someone's car and you get out to exchange insurance info and then someone else smashes their car to smithereens because they happened to stop in a bad spot, they can't win a suit against you, even though you technically caused them to be in that position by negligently hitting their car.
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    Default Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?

    The train would not have been involved at all if Mr. Incredible hadn't noticed the bomb on Buddy Pine's cape. Buddy likely would have exploded in mid-air rather than the bomb exploding on the tracks, with the worst damage coming from someone maybe getting hit with chunks of what was once Master Pine and his rocket boots.
    There likely would be some major flak from a child dying while trying to imitate a superhero however.
    Last edited by Ravens_cry; 2012-08-08 at 09:05 PM.
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    Default Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?

    Yeah, but you're ignoring two things. First, let's recall that the bomb would never have been introduced had Bomb Voyage not tried to murder a child. Granted, he's a child that's foolish, but that's kind of what kids are supposed to be about. Mr. Incredible acting so as to save a child from a bomb (while holding onto his cape in mid-air) is an entirely non-tortious act (I'll say more below). Meanwhile, Bomb Voyage engaged in a classic case of transferred intent: he intended to kill Buddy, and instead ended up derailing a train and injuring a bunch of passengers when the bomb exploded. As such, any good lawyer in this world using our law could make a tort case out of that.

    Second, our law has a set of defenses that give varying degrees of immunity from lawsuit. One such defense is absolute necessity, also known as the "savior of the city" doctrine. In cases where, in order to preserve human life, it becomes necessary to destroy property and/or cause injury, those who do such damage and/or injuries are immunized from suits. For example, if Anarion were to push Raven's Cry into the road, and I tried to rescue, but in pulling Raven's Cry from the road I separated RC's shoulder, I would not be liable; longstanding precedent has already determined we roll the damage for that into the damage inflicted by Anarion in the first place. Similarly, when Mr. Incredible removed the bomb and it came down on the train tracks, he would likely have been immunized from suit given his attempt to save a life and his subsequent actions saving the train.

    Really, while we shouldn't read too much into it (it's a movie that needed to get from Point A to Point B; the law was just a plot device to get there and it did it well), but Hollywood has a history of using legal contrivances in the plot that our law already has doctrines to deal with.

  15. - Top - End - #165
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    Default Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?

    That makes sense. In fact, a world with superheroes would need pretty lenient Good Samaritan laws for them to exist at all within the law.
    It is the court of public opinion which would create the 'major flak' I am referring to.
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    Default Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?

    Ultimately, it was the court of public opinion and the costs of defending the heroes in the court of law that made the government make the supers go away, rather than the actual success of lawsuits.
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    Default Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?

    Quote Originally Posted by kpenguin View Post
    Ultimately, it was the court of public opinion and the costs of defending the heroes in the court of law that made the government make the supers go away, rather than the actual success of lawsuits.
    Of course, the court of public opinion is a fickle and easily changed beast. Mr. Incredible has a whole wall full of newspapers showing how awesome people thought he was back in the day, and literally minutes beforehand he took time out of a car chase and his own wedding to help a kitten out of a tree.

    If they seriously wanted the supers to stick around, it probably wouldn't have been that hard. I think though, that there wasn't any real love lost between the supers and the powers that be, simply because the glory days era supers didn't seem to be all that nice. I mean Mr. Incredible was kind of blunt, at best. He, Elastigirl, and Frozone all came off as kind of arrogant in the interviews during the beginning, and it was mentioned in the thread already that plenty of other heroes came off as jerky as well.

    Obviously since they were willing to help them through the case and let them get on with their lives, and since the actual government employees we see didn't have any ill will, it wasn't a case of overriding hatred, but having hundreds of gun-ho loose canons laying around isn't exactly a situation people tend to relish if they have to keep everything in control.
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    Default Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?

    My theory was that they didn't win the case. But it opened the floodgate for suing. Every odd person and their grandma was looking to get a nice pile of cash. So newspapers started to ignore

    "Hero saves schoolbus full of children" and started to write "Idiot destroys building" only adding fire to the effect.

    Eventually the government just ran out of money to deal with the stuff, even if they didn't have to pay, each court case cost money.

    And maybe at the time all the major villains where just caught. So the expense was not justified.

    And this can easily fit the movies cannon.
    Last edited by Scowling Dragon; 2012-08-08 at 10:15 PM.

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    Default Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?

    or maybe it was escalation.
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    Default Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?

    Syndrome is at BEST Hank Pym at his absolute zenith as a hero.
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    Default Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?

    ...woah, yeah. His scheme is remarkably similar to BreakdownWifeSwatPym's plan to unleash a robot and be a hero stopping it.

    Also homaged in Astro City with El Hombre.
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    Default Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?

    If all he did was the morally reprehensible "unleash killer robot you are fairly certain only you can defeat on unsuspecting city" act, he might be able to redeem himself and become a hero, it's the beta testing on supers over 15 or so years that really puts him into villain territory.
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    Default Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fjolnir View Post
    If all he did was the morally reprehensible "unleash killer robot you are fairly certain only you can defeat on unsuspecting city" act, he might be able to redeem himself and become a hero, it's the beta testing on supers over 15 or so years that really puts him into villain territory.
    .....

    So Its OK if I drop a nuclear bomb on a village if Im fairly certain I can prevent the majority of the fallout?

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    Default Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?

    absolutely not, but we're talking degrees of evil here while pulling an Ozymandius for the good of humanity is still inherently evil it does not mean that the person wasn't a hero at some point and could even possibly be one again despite the evil he has committed. A single act can be atoned for, though Syndrome does not seem the type, which is why he is a villain.
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    Default Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Yes it is evil. It should be also noted that the OotS are not moral paragons.
    Mal: Mercy is the mark of a great man.
    [Mal lightly stabs Atherton.]
    Mal: Guess I'm just a good man.
    [He stabs him again.]
    Mal: Well, I'm all right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    Forgot to mention!

    OOTS torturing:

    Roy dangling the Oracle: Not torture: Roy isn't going to drop the Kobold and it does not cause any pain. Assault, not torture.

    Celia electrocuting a bound Nale: Borderline: Not good by any stretch of the imagination, but also not sustained. Also, we're unsure how much damage she really did and Nale is fine afterwards.

    V rigging Belkar's coffee and charming Muskrats: Not torture: Pranks.

    Miko putting Belkar in the hole: Not torture: He's a criminal, he goes into a cell.

    The saga of the dominated Kobold. Torture: I blanched at this to be honest. Of course, the two people doing it are the amoral, neutral mage and the chaotic evil halfling.
    Last edited by Joran; 2012-08-08 at 11:39 PM.

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    Default Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    .....

    So Its OK if I drop a nuclear bomb on a village if Im fairly certain I can prevent the majority of the fallout?
    No and that's not what he was saying what so ever. Notice the words "Morally reprehensible" before the whole "Unleashing Robot part." There's also a sense of scale here. Killer Robot=/=Nuclear Holocaust. Nor is mitigating the harm even a part of this. What we have here is a Strawman.

    What he's saying is if -all- Syndrome had done was unleash a robot on the populous of a city than he could still be a hero if he tried. Ya know...after he suffered the punishment and all that.

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    Default Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?

    True. But hes not the type of person to do so.

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    Default Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    Yes, it is his fault that they only got hurt instead of dying. How careless.
    Well, my reasoning was that if Mr Incredible had not been involved they would not have been in danger of death. However, McStabbington's analysis convinced me that my reasoning was faulty and wrong. While he might be a lawyer, I am definitely not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by McStabbington View Post
    Yeah, but you're ignoring two things. First, let's recall that the bomb would never have been introduced had Bomb Voyage not tried to murder a child. Granted, he's a child that's foolish, but that's kind of what kids are supposed to be about. Mr. Incredible acting so as to save a child from a bomb (while holding onto his cape in mid-air) is an entirely non-tortious act (I'll say more below). Meanwhile, Bomb Voyage engaged in a classic case of transferred intent: he intended to kill Buddy, and instead ended up derailing a train and injuring a bunch of passengers when the bomb exploded. As such, any good lawyer in this world using our law could make a tort case out of that.

    Second, our law has a set of defenses that give varying degrees of immunity from lawsuit. One such defense is absolute necessity, also known as the "savior of the city" doctrine. In cases where, in order to preserve human life, it becomes necessary to destroy property and/or cause injury, those who do such damage and/or injuries are immunized from suits. For example, if Anarion were to push Raven's Cry into the road, and I tried to rescue, but in pulling Raven's Cry from the road I separated RC's shoulder, I would not be liable; longstanding precedent has already determined we roll the damage for that into the damage inflicted by Anarion in the first place. Similarly, when Mr. Incredible removed the bomb and it came down on the train tracks, he would likely have been immunized from suit given his attempt to save a life and his subsequent actions saving the train.

    Quote Originally Posted by McStabbington View Post
    Really, while we shouldn't read too much into it (it's a movie that needed to get from Point A to Point B; the law was just a plot device to get there and it did it well), but Hollywood has a history of using legal contrivances in the plot that our law already has doctrines to deal with.
    So Hollywood law is nearly as sketchy as hollywood physics? Good to know.

    Quote Originally Posted by kpenguin View Post
    Ultimately, it was the court of public opinion and the costs of defending the heroes in the court of law that made the government make the supers go away, rather than the actual success of lawsuits.
    I was going to bring up defense costs, but the forum ate my post about it. I do know that a lot of malpractice cases are settled because the value of the settlement is determined to be less than the cost of a trial. I knew a dentist or oral surgeon who was really scared of malpractice suits because of the damage a settlement would do to his reputation.
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    Default Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    Yes, it is his fault that they only got hurt instead of dying. How careless.
    Well, my reasoning was that if Mr Incredible had not been involved they would not have been in danger of death. However, McStabbington's analysis convinced me that my reasoning was faulty and wrong. While he might be a lawyer, I am definitely not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by McStabbington View Post
    Yeah, but you're ignoring two things. First, let's recall that the bomb would never have been introduced had Bomb Voyage not tried to murder a child. Granted, he's a child that's foolish, but that's kind of what kids are supposed to be about. Mr. Incredible acting so as to save a child from a bomb (while holding onto his cape in mid-air) is an entirely non-tortious act (I'll say more below). Meanwhile, Bomb Voyage engaged in a classic case of transferred intent: he intended to kill Buddy, and instead ended up derailing a train and injuring a bunch of passengers when the bomb exploded. As such, any good lawyer in this world using our law could make a tort case out of that.

    Second, our law has a set of defenses that give varying degrees of immunity from lawsuit. One such defense is absolute necessity, also known as the "savior of the city" doctrine. In cases where, in order to preserve human life, it becomes necessary to destroy property and/or cause injury, those who do such damage and/or injuries are immunized from suits. For example, if Anarion were to push Raven's Cry into the road, and I tried to rescue, but in pulling Raven's Cry from the road I separated RC's shoulder, I would not be liable; longstanding precedent has already determined we roll the damage for that into the damage inflicted by Anarion in the first place. Similarly, when Mr. Incredible removed the bomb and it came down on the train tracks, he would likely have been immunized from suit given his attempt to save a life and his subsequent actions saving the train.

    Quote Originally Posted by McStabbington View Post
    Really, while we shouldn't read too much into it (it's a movie that needed to get from Point A to Point B; the law was just a plot device to get there and it did it well), but Hollywood has a history of using legal contrivances in the plot that our law already has doctrines to deal with.
    So Hollywood law is nearly as sketchy as hollywood physics? Good to know.

    Quote Originally Posted by kpenguin View Post
    Ultimately, it was the court of public opinion and the costs of defending the heroes in the court of law that made the government make the supers go away, rather than the actual success of lawsuits.
    I was going to bring up defense costs, but the forum ate my post about it. I do know that a lot of malpractice cases are settled because the value of the settlement is determined to be less than the cost of a trial. I knew a dentist or oral surgeon who was really scared of malpractice suits because of the damage a settlement would do to his reputation.
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    Default Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?

    This is why Hank Pym is still a superhero while Syndrome never was. Hank takes responsibility for his actions in every situation and genuinely attempts to both atone and make up for his missteps off the path of righteousness. In addition to the aforementioned incidents, he also created one of the marvel universe's most dangerous robot villains (ultron). But the fact that he attempts to both fix what is wrong with himself and make the world a better place is what makes him a hero, flaws and all.
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