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  1. - Top - End - #391
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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Utterly random idea, with no backing except it'd be funny and in-character for the author and character:
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    So Maggie lives with the Carpenters. At some point, maybe even now, she'd want to know where her parents were or what happened to him.

    Can you imagine Molly (pre-Cold Days) telling her that the Winter Knight killed her father?
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    I have mixed feelings on this. On one hand, it would be an amazing reference, and somewhat fitting for the situation. Even more so since, from her point of view, it is basically true. But I also kind of don't like it, because I can see it leading to Maggie trying to kill Harry at some point in the future. And then you get the "No, I am your father" line, and it would be ridiculously sad.

    ...Which, considering how much Jim likes torturing Harry, might make it more likely to actually happen.


    On another note, sometimes I feel like I'm the only one here that really liked Ghost Story. I liked seeing the new ghost elements, and all the characters involved got to be badass (especially Bob), and Harry's interactions with Murphy have me major emotions.
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  2. - Top - End - #392
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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    Quote Originally Posted by One Tin Soldier View Post
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    I have mixed feelings on this. On one hand, it would be an amazing reference, and somewhat fitting for the situation. Even more so since, from her point of view, it is basically true. But I also kind of don't like it, because I can see it leading to Maggie trying to kill Harry at some point in the future. And then you get the "No, I am your father" line, and it would be ridiculously sad.

    ...Which, considering how much Jim likes torturing Harry, might make it more likely to actually happen.


    On another note, sometimes I feel like I'm the only one here that really liked Ghost Story. I liked seeing the new ghost elements, and all the characters involved got to be badass (especially Bob), and Harry's interactions with Murphy have me major emotions.
    Ghost story was good, I didn't mind de-magicked Harry. However, the geek references, which I normally loved, came a little too-fast for my tastes. It's one thing to have Harry greet Molly with a "Luke, you must go to the Dagobah System", it's another to have the big mental-battle be on the bridge of the USS Mollyprise. Also, while it helped establish what The Fellowship had been up to/ who pulled the trigger, it didn't really advance very much of the plot.
    I think a lot of people hate it simply because it meant we had to wait another year for Cold Days.
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  3. - Top - End - #393
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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    Quote Originally Posted by One Tin Soldier View Post
    On another note, sometimes I feel like I'm the only one here that really liked Ghost Story. I liked seeing the new ghost elements, and all the characters involved got to be badass (especially Bob), and Harry's interactions with Murphy have me major emotions.
    I liked Ghost STory, but on the other hand, I acknowledge that it is largely an interim book. Transitional.
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  4. - Top - End - #394
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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    Quote Originally Posted by One Tin Soldier View Post
    On another note, sometimes I feel like I'm the only one here that really liked Ghost Story. I liked seeing the new ghost elements, and all the characters involved got to be badass (especially Bob), and Harry's interactions with Murphy have me major emotions.
    I hear you. While I admit Ghost Story didn't add a whole lot to the plot, I thought it was a very good read, but a lot of people seem to dislike it.
    Last edited by Drolyt; 2012-12-05 at 12:56 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #395
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weimann View Post
    As I said above, I just finished the fourteenth book of the Dresden Files series, Cold Days.

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    More annoying is the focus on Outsiders. For one, I don't like the term Outsider, not connected to the representation they were given in the book. Okay, so they live on the other side of this great big gate. What about it? Oh, they want to destroy reality. As opposed to... wherever they live? They seem pretty damn real to me. They just happen to live on the other side of the gate. Since they are hostile and aggressive, of course we have to defend ourselves, but I fail to see what makes Outsiders so alien as they are made out to be. There's just an arbitrary line drawn around Earth + Nevernever.
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    Yeah, that bugged the hell out of me. If Outside is just a few steps over a gate? Well their demons, pretty scary and weird demons. But they lost a lot of their alienness if they we can just walk their and visa versa.

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    Second, the aforementioned villain decay. He Who Walks Behind was, for the longest tome, freaking terrifying. I think I even had a nightmare about him once. This new outside, He Who Walks... Before? Really? Anyway, he's a villain of the week. Given that outsiders now come by the dozen, it's much less impressive. I understand that this is justified in that Harry has grown stronger, and it is actually a valid reasoning. Still... eh, I dunno.
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    Eh, He Who Walks Behind, when it comes right down to it, died to a single blast of fire. He Who Walks Behind has got the cool teleportation power, and invisibility but really he's just a bruiser. A teleporting bruiser, but Cait Sith would have a better shot at ganking Harry. In all honesty He Who Walks Before is probably a bigger danger to Harry now. Harry just got a lot of power creep.

    What was more annoying in my opinion is the lesser outsiders getting sliced up. If they are on par with faires and uber-ghouls? If they get ripped apart by teeth, and swords, even if they are from the wild hunt? That doesn't exactly bode well for them. Uber Ghouls, and fairies don't exactly stand up well to modern weaponry. I suppose this could be a set up for a flat out curbstomp with artillery machine guns and nukes, which could be cool...

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    What I do know is that I'm not a fan of the adversary. I've seen this in many places. The magical amulet corrupts its wearer. They aren't really themselves, they were being manipulated and influenced. And now this gets applied retroactively to most opponents Harry has fought over the years? I'm sorry, but **** that ****. Making the Outsiders responsible for everything is stupid. I can understand them being the biggest threat right now, but retroactively making them the only threat detracts from those books. It detracts from the realism that Dresden Files none the less has by removing the ability for people to be *******s all on their own. It creates a Sauron.
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    Eh, I don't see the retroactivity. Or at least not in this book. It was fairly well established that someone was causing the harm and issues of the first three books. The corruption was obvious in the hexen-belts. And with Leia. It was locked in at least by book 7.
    Last edited by Lamech; 2012-12-05 at 01:01 PM.
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  6. - Top - End - #396
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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Lamech View Post
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    Yeah, that bugged the hell out of me. If Outside is just a few steps over a gate? Well their demons, pretty scary and weird demons. But they lost a lot of their alienness if they we can just walk their and visa versa.
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    If by walk there, you mean be able to make it to the Nevernever. And then be able to navigate to the edges of the Nevernever(which Rashid says doesn't usually happen until a wizard has become very experienced. Remember the Summer Mother personally escorted him there. Harry didn't walk there, he took the express train.
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  7. - Top - End - #397
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    The thing I love the most is how the world-building really came together in Cold Days. The whole existence of Sanctum explains a lot about the world: all the old, dark gods and immortals are locked away, leaving the Fae as the dominant remaining supernatural faction. You can't lock away the winter court if it battles to keep the world whole, right? The courts of the vampires and Fomor consist mostly of, if not mortal, at least NOT immortal creatures - creatures that probably were not all that powerful in Merlin's time, and so overlooked. After all, the naagloshii are the weakest creatures in the Sanctum, and Merlin did not lock away even all of those. All the powerful creatures Dresden encounters are usually either a more recent creation - Denarians, presumably organized of the silver coins of Judas - Fae, or creatures overlooked that have since had time to gather significant strength: the vampire courts and fomor.

    Sanctum also makes sense in that while Merlin -considering the feat of strength it took to raise the place - probably could have taken on most of the immortals one on one during Halloween and so slay them permanently, this would have had a great chance of misfiring: only one day of time in a year, leaving time for the evil immortals to band up and take him on.

    With the Sanctum Merlin has the freedom of choice concerning when he captures them - in theory I think it's possible that if he knew the true names of the immortals, he could have used the Sanctum itself, after construction, to summon and bind them all in a relatively short time frame.

  8. - Top - End - #398
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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Adumbration View Post
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    The thing I love the most is how the world-building really came together in Cold Days. The whole existence of Sanctum explains a lot about the world: all the old, dark gods and immortals are locked away, leaving the Fae as the dominant remaining supernatural faction. You can't lock away the winter court if it battles to keep the world whole, right? The courts of the vampires and Fomor consist mostly of, if not mortal, at least NOT immortal creatures - creatures that probably were not all that powerful in Merlin's time, and so overlooked. After all, the naagloshii are the weakest creatures in the Sanctum, and Merlin did not lock away even all of those. All the powerful creatures Dresden encounters are usually either a more recent creation - Denarians, presumably organized of the silver coins of Judas - Fae, or creatures overlooked that have since had time to gather significant strength: the vampire courts and fomor.

    Sanctum also makes sense in that while Merlin -considering the feat of strength it took to raise the place - probably could have taken on most of the immortals one on one during Halloween and so slay them permanently, this would have had a great chance of misfiring: only one day of time in a year, leaving time for the evil immortals to band up and take him on.

    With the Sanctum Merlin has the freedom of choice concerning when he captures them - in theory I think it's possible that if he knew the true names of the immortals, he could have used the Sanctum itself, after construction, to summon and bind them all in a relatively short time frame.
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    I don't think that all the things in Demonreach are "Immortals" in the sense of "Can't be killed except under very specific circumstances/on Halloween". According to Morgan, one skinwalker died to a nuclear bomb, and Listens-to-Winds implied he could have killed Shagnasty if he really, really wanted to, but it would have meant lots of collateral damage. Skinwalkers are not true Immortals. They are ageless, semi-divine, and really, really, really hard to kill, but theoretically enough damage can take them out.
    Plus,the oblivion war implies that some creatures could be forgotten out of existence.
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  9. - Top - End - #399
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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
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    I don't think that all the things in Demonreach are "Immortals" in the sense of "Can't be killed except under very specific circumstances/on Halloween". According to Morgan, one skinwalker died to a nuclear bomb, and Listens-to-Winds implied he could have killed Shagnasty if he really, really wanted to, but it would have meant lots of collateral damage. Skinwalkers are not true Immortals. They are ageless, semi-divine, and really, really, really hard to kill, but theoretically enough damage can take them out.
    Plus,the oblivion war implies that some creatures could be forgotten out of existence.
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    I don't have the books at hand, but at least the Dresden Files wiki refers to them as immortal - it would also make sense if Morgan didn't know the definition of immortal, just as Dresden didn't before Bob educated him. No doubt the nuclear blast would have killed the naagloshii in the sense that it will take a long while to rematerialize. Listens-to-Winds implies that they can be killed, but he might also refer to discorporation or perhaps capture and eventual destruction at a vulnerable point in time. Or simply that he could take it on one on one.

    I always presumed that the oblivion war only threatened creatures permanently seated in the Nevernever. The Winter counteracted the effects of the war on themselves by the release of faerie tale books and Disney flicks. Lovecraft probably upheld the Fomor and the vampire courts probably weren't threatened by it. It has been, however, a while since I read the short stories concerning the Oblivion War, so I may be incorrect in my conjecture.

  10. - Top - End - #400
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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    In Turn Coat, Bob describes the skinwalker as, "an immortal, semidivine being." For whatever that's worth. At the same time, Harry had no problem believing that the nuke killed the one Morgan faced. We know that regular fire is a cleansing force, even in the magical world. We also know that Harry uses depleted uranium as an ingredient in his ghost dust. It's possible that a nuclear blast or the radiation it produces has metaphysical effects that we don't know anything about, alongside the physical ones. It's not like setting off a nuke is the kind of thing wizards can perform a lot of experiments with.
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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

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    it dosn't help that Cold Days added an extended definition of "immortal".

    The technical definition of "Immortal" means "Can Not Die".

    The Vernacular Definition of "Immortal" usually means "Ageless, and therefore really old, and therefore really powerful, but theoretically Killable".
    Cold Days added a new definition "Usually unkillable, except under certain circumstances or on Halloween".

    It's possible that Skinwalkers are small-i-immortal. Like Vampires or the Einherdjar, they are "merely" ageless, as opposed to Big-I-Immortal beings like the Fairie Queens.

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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    Quote Originally Posted by datalaughing View Post
    In Turn Coat, Bob describes the skinwalker as, "an immortal, semidivine being." For whatever that's worth. At the same time, Harry had no problem believing that the nuke killed the one Morgan faced. We know that regular fire is a cleansing force, even in the magical world. We also know that Harry uses depleted uranium as an ingredient in his ghost dust. It's possible that a nuclear blast or the radiation it produces has metaphysical effects that we don't know anything about, alongside the physical ones. It's not like setting off a nuke is the kind of thing wizards can perform a lot of experiments with.
    well, that would be suicidal for the world, shoudl they ever do that. though I'm waiting for a technowizard. One who instead of disrupting technology, can actually use technology...
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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

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    I don't think the skinwalkers are immortal in the same sense as the gods and other immortals, but regardless Bob did say that Halloween isn't the only way to kill an immortal. Maybe a nuke could do it. Maybe a "semidivine" being isn't quite as immortal as, say, one of the faerie queens. It isn't made entirely clear.

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    On another note, didn't Demonreach say the Warden was allowed to release the prisoners? Why would that be? The only thing I can think of is that Merlin intended the prison to be a weapon of last resort.

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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
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    it dosn't help that Cold Days added an extended definition of "immortal".

    The technical definition of "Immortal" means "Can Not Die".

    The Vernacular Definition of "Immortal" usually means "Ageless, and therefore really old, and therefore really powerful, but theoretically Killable".
    Cold Days added a new definition "Usually unkillable, except under certain circumstances or on Halloween".

    It's possible that Skinwalkers are small-i-immortal. Like Vampires or the Einherdjar, they are "merely" ageless, as opposed to Big-I-Immortal beings like the Fairie Queens.

    On immortality:
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    Even though some Immortals can seemingly be killed on Hallowe'en, it's possible that they still qualify as immortal because their power and essence do not pass on, but instead leap to another host.

    It seemed as if Lily had essentially become Aurora when Dresden meets her in Cold Days, for example.
    Last edited by SmartAlec; 2012-12-06 at 06:53 AM.

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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    I wonder

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    The parasite that help hold Harry together would that be Laschiel or her shadow and will she have a more significant role to play later?

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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    Quote Originally Posted by datalaughing View Post
    In Turn Coat, Bob describes the skinwalker as, "an immortal, semidivine being." For whatever that's worth. At the same time, Harry had no problem believing that the nuke killed the one Morgan faced. We know that regular fire is a cleansing force, even in the magical world. We also know that Harry uses depleted uranium as an ingredient in his ghost dust. It's possible that a nuclear blast or the radiation it produces has metaphysical effects that we don't know anything about, alongside the physical ones. It's not like setting off a nuke is the kind of thing wizards can perform a lot of experiments with.
    Well, we don't actually know for sure that the nuke killed that particular Nagloshi. It could have merely discorporated it and cheesed it off. Hell, for all we know, Shagnasty might in fact be that particular Nagloshi come back for revenge on some level and using the "doing a favor" thing as an added incentive to get involved. That's just a pet theory of mine since Shagnasty doesn't strike me as somebody who would be caught out doing favors, not unless there was a lot in it for it.

    But, as I understand it . . . and I'm sticking this in spoilers simply because the implications of it have spoiler potential . . .

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    Nagloshi are a different type of entity here. When Bob and everybody are talking about immortals in this book, they're pretty much referring to beings with "mantles." That is, overarching . . . idioms I guess . . . that they have over the top of whoever personally they might be. Vadderung is Odin (and also Kringle/Santa), Mab might once have been a mortal woman (who I'm convinced was named something completely banal and silly like Mildred) but is also now Queen of Air and Darkness. The Nagloshi is "just" a superpowered nasty who gets its rocks of torturing people to death and causing pain and suffering. That doesn't seem to be a mantle, really.


    Perhaps speculation above about "Capital I Immortals and Lower Case I immortals" is on to something.
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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    Quote Originally Posted by hamlet View Post
    Well, we don't actually know for sure that the nuke killed that particular Nagloshi. It could have merely discorporated it and cheesed it off. Hell, for all we know, Shagnasty might in fact be that particular Nagloshi come back for revenge on some level and using the "doing a favor" thing as an added incentive to get involved. That's just a pet theory of mine since Shagnasty doesn't strike me as somebody who would be caught out doing favors, not unless there was a lot in it for it.

    But, as I understand it . . . and I'm sticking this in spoilers simply because the implications of it have spoiler potential . . .

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    Nagloshi are a different type of entity here. When Bob and everybody are talking about immortals in this book, they're pretty much referring to beings with "mantles." That is, overarching . . . idioms I guess . . . that they have over the top of whoever personally they might be. Vadderung is Odin (and also Kringle/Santa), Mab might once have been a mortal woman (who I'm convinced was named something completely banal and silly like Mildred) but is also now Queen of Air and Darkness. The Nagloshi is "just" a superpowered nasty who gets its rocks of torturing people to death and causing pain and suffering. That doesn't seem to be a mantle, really.


    Perhaps speculation above about "Capital I Immortals and Lower Case I immortals" is on to something.
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    See I think that the Naagloshi is a "Capital I Immortal" because it has intellectus (by WoJ). Granted it only applies to evil but still!. That's something that only archangels (those beings that can annihilate galaxies with a thought) and the Fae Mothers have been shown to have.

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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    Quote Originally Posted by 123456789blaaa View Post
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    See I think that the Naagloshi is a "Capital I Immortal" because it has intellectus (by WoJ). Granted it only applies to evil but still!. That's something that only archangels (those beings that can annihilate galaxies with a thought) and the Fae Mothers have been shown to have.
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    It might have an intellectus, but that's hardly the qualifying condition. Demonreach (and by extension Harry while there) has one, and neither of them really qualifies. Mab does, but we don't know that she has one. Her daughter certainly doesn't, but is a Capital I Immortal.

    I think that Naagloshi are probably more comparable to the Denarians. A step or three above Harry, but not exactly all that and a bag of chips. Tough, but not unbeatable.
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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    A profilic poster on the DF forums called Elegast recently posted two threads that revalute Small Favor and Proven Guilty in light of Cold Days. I don't think I fully appreciated the amount of planning and forethought that goes into the books before today.

    Small Favor

    Proven Guilty

    *joins Mab fan club*.

    I would also reccomend checking out Elegasts other theories too. I found them suprisingly convincing and interesting.

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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    General small nitpick:
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    should we still call Molly her name, or will it become Maeve now? The Knights seem to keep their names, but I'm thinking about Titania; would it really do to have a Summer Queen named anything else? Shakespeare and all.

    Honestly, a ruler of Fae called Molly Carpenter? What would the poets say?
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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Weimann View Post
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    General small nitpick: shold we still call Molly her name, or will it become Maeve now? The Knights seem to keep their names, but I'm thinking about Titania; would it really do to have a Summer Queen named anything else? Shakespeare and all. Honestly,a ruler of Fae called Molly Carpenter? What would the poets say?
    They never called Lily Aurora.
    Last edited by Drolyt; 2012-12-06 at 11:42 PM.

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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    You should probably drop a spoiler around that Weimann.
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    And she's still Molly, until she decides to be something else. "Maeve" was just a name held by the current Winter lady. The Mantles gradually warp personality, but they don't change your identity.
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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    Quote Originally Posted by 123456789blaaa View Post
    A profilic poster on the DF forums called Elegast recently posted two threads that revalute Small Favor and Proven Guilty in light of Cold Days. I don't think I fully appreciated the amount of planning and forethought that goes into the books before today.

    Small Favor

    Proven Guilty

    *joins Mab fan club*.

    I would also reccomend checking out Elegasts other theories too. I found them suprisingly convincing and interesting.
    That's actually really really helpful...answers a lot of questions I had about PG. thanks for the link.

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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    It's of course very probable that Titania was Titania ever since around the time Shakespeare was alive. Who's to say there wasn't someone else with another name before that?

    And now I'm wondering where Oberon is at. Probably he's kinda-sorta the Erlking's other aspect?
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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Feytalist View Post
    And now I'm wondering where Oberon is at. Probably he's kinda-sorta the Erlking's other aspect?
    Maybe, but I would think Oberon was a summer fae.

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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    Well, we know that the queens and kings of both winter and summer are not exactly together anymore (not that surprising considering you'd deal with a 24/7 scheming bitch, I'd too rather go hunting). We know the winterking has become Santa. so that's solved, only left is Oberon.

    We know Oberon is King of the fey (summer). We know the ErlKing (Goblin King) stems from Erlkönig where Erl refers to goblins. However, The goblins are in that situation synonymous to the fey (or fairies). Could it be that the Erlking is actually Oberon but in a slightly different aspect? we know names have power and define aspects and even shape and looks (Vadderung, Ms Gard, plenty of evidence if you look around). I am curious what would happen if you'd call the Erlking Oberon.
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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    That was roughly my line of thinking as well.

    I mean, look at the names Harry calls Mother Winter by. And if those names are just different masks or aspects of her, then the same might be applied to old Kersvader or Herne the Hunter. Many different names, similar purpose. It's actually one of the most interesting aspects of mythology to me.
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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Feytalist View Post
    That was roughly my line of thinking as well.

    I mean, look at the names Harry calls Mother Winter by. And if those names are just different masks or aspects of her, then the same might be applied to old Kersvader or Herne the Hunter. Many different names, similar purpose. It's actually one of the most interesting aspects of mythology to me.
    and one of the most abused by intelligent writers such as Jim, Terry and Neil

    Remember Kids, names (and by proxy words as a name for things and concepts) are important. Very important
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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    I kind of got the impression that the Faerie Kings tended to be Wildfae, rather than associated with their courts of origin. At the same time, they tend to reverse the stereotypical aspects of their respective courts.

    The Erlking is the Summer King, or at least one of them, but he seems like he would be more in tune with Winter. However, The predatory nature of he Winter Fae stems from scarcity. It is the wolf in the snow, perpetually one day away from starvation. The Erlking is not a starving wolf, he is a well-fed lord, hunting for sport and the thrill of the chase.
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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

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    Did anyone else get the impression that Santa wasn't always Santa Claus until the stories about Santa started. Now the fey can also be locked out by the Oblivion war. I wonder if other creatures that the Oblivion War killed could be rewritten like that. All those powers replaced with something else...
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