Dresden Files: Winter is coming (Cold Days Spoilers)

[Drolyt]

Newton's Laws of Motion aren't entirely accurate

Of course, but Newton's Laws are approximations of two laws that, even in the very edges of physics, we believe to always apply: conservation of mass-energy and conservation of momentum. But I no longer think that matters. I thought about it, looked some things up, and in fact you can violate Newton's Third Law without violating conservation of momentum, just not with a simple push or pull. One example is with charged particles, you can maintain conservation of momentum by changing the momentum of the electromagnetic field, but that means a force sort of appears out of nowhere, violating the Third Law. I hadn't thought of this before because a) I'm not a physicist and make mistakes and b) it still wouldn't explain the force rings, but in general we could assume that there is a magical field and this field can gain and lose momentum and mass-energy in lieu of any actual objects doing so. So basically that should fix all problems with Dresden physics.

[jindra34]

The force rings we actually have a psuedo explanation of from one of the early books. Namely for the purpose of moving them they act as if they were more massive than they are, and 'store' the kinetic energy created by the differential for later use.

[Dragonus45]

On the subject of doing buisness with physics i think people look to much into that quote. Magic defies physics by its definition, however in the dresden verse it apears to have to respect the concepts to a point, i use magical fire as an example, harry roughly states that "conjured fire still acts like real fire after it is summoned unless more energy is expended to control it". This appears to show that magic ignores most physical laws as long as energy is expended to do so. Harry isn't knocked back by his rings because its magic, but he still has to expend energy to create the effect which means no infinite energy by our physics logic. The only newtonian law magic has ever followed to a T is that nothing can truly be "destroyed" and nothing can be "created"

[Drolyt]

Magic defies physics by its definition

Sort of. I mean, it adds some stuff, but the bigger question is whether it changes fundamental things like conservation of momentum and the principle of least action.

[Anderlith]

The force rings work on a temporal level. He expends energy & he hits resistance to move his arm, that extra force is stored, the how or where doesn't need to be explained (magic), when he activates them he is expelling all that energy that he had already paid the resistance for. Conservation of momentum & equal & opposite force still apply, only the timing of the force was different.

Imagine kicking a soccer ball & it feeling like kicking a wall then a week later the same force activates against the ball which then flies as if you had just kicked it. The opposing force was already paid for but something trapped & withheld that energy on a temporal level

[Mauve Shirt]

"The how or where doesn't need to be explained."

I agree, but this is The Internet. Over-analyzing is what we do here.

[Dragonus45]

Sort of. I mean, it adds some stuff, but the bigger question is whether it changes fundamental things like conservation of momentum and the principle of least action.

My point is that i think it does, but only for as long as magical energy is being applied. I see it as sort of a bubble of non action where these things can be changed, but only by an amount roughly equal to the energy aplied. It's clear at least the never never works outside of those laws since sometimes gunpowder wont ignite or on occasion gravity may not be working.

[Drolyt]

My point is that i think it does, but only for as long as magical energy is being applied. I see it as sort of a bubble of non action where these things can be changed, but only by an amount roughly equal to the energy aplied. It's clear at least the never never works outside of those laws since sometimes gunpowder wont ignite or on occasion gravity may not be working.

Well, the nevernever obviously has some different laws, but I guess what I'm saying is that it should still work within the same rough framework. So maybe the gravitational constant is different in the nevernever, or whatever, but it still works roughly the same. At least that's how I always assumed it was, but I have no real reason for believing that other than Butcher's "doing business with physics" quote, which is itself quite vague, so I'm not sure where there is to go from here.

[Anderlith]

"The how or where doesn't need to be explained."

I agree, but this is The Internet. Over-analyzing is what we do here.

Localized Photonic Field through an alternate dimension, the rings themselves holding the charge

[Mauve Shirt]

Re-re-re-re-reread Grave Peril. If Pyrofuego was Harry's death curse, what will that mean if he has to cast another one? Do you think he will die again, or gain another problem power that grants him an advantage, or do you think we'll never see his death curse?
I like the idea that Harry will use every piece of magic that a wizard can use at least once.
not gonna let this thread expire, no sir

[Ronnoc]

Of course, but Newton's Laws are approximations of two laws that, even in the very edges of physics, we believe to always apply: conservation of mass-energy and conservation of momentum.

Fun fact, you can actually break conservation of mass-energy provided you do it really fast and pay the energy back latter. Unfortunately it's pretty much impossible to get useful work done this way.

[lord_khaine]

Re-re-re-re-reread Grave Peril. If Pyrofuego was Harry's death curse, what will that mean if he has to cast another one? Do you think he will die again, or gain another problem power that grants him an advantage, or do you think we'll never see his death curse?
I like the idea that Harry will use every piece of magic that a wizard can use at least once.

Im a bit confused here, pyrofuego isnt Harry's death curse, its his "i wanna burn someone or something" spell, so what occation are you talking about here?

[BRC]

Im a bit confused here, pyrofuego isnt Harry's death curse, its his "i wanna burn someone or something" spell, so what occation are you talking about here?

Also, IIRC, a Death Curse kills the caster.
The idea is that a wizard does it when they know they are going to die, so they put everything they have into a single spell, the exertion of which kills them. Had he thrown a Death Curse, he would have been Dead For Real, instead of only Mostly Dead.
The whole point of the Sniper Rifle was that it wouldn't give Harry a chance to throw a death curse.

[lord_khaine]

Also, IIRC, a Death Curse kills the caster.
The idea is that a wizard does it when they know they are going to die, so they put everything they have into a single spell, the exertion of which kills them. Had he thrown a Death Curse, he would have been Dead For Real, instead of only Mostly Dead.
The whole point of the Sniper Rifle was that it wouldn't give Harry a chance to throw a death curse.

And thats why im confused about the talk of a death curse in Grave Peril.

[The Glyphstone]

Im a bit confused here, pyrofuego isnt Harry's death curse, its his "i wanna burn someone or something" spell, so what occation are you talking about here?

That's Fuego. Pyrofuego was, apparently, a supercharged version of his usual fire spell - not a literal Death Curse, but he was willing to burn himself out to power it.

[lord_khaine]

That's Fuego. Pyrofuego was, apparently, a supercharged version of his usual fire spell - not a literal Death Curse, but he was willing to burn himself out to power it.

I know... Hence my question.

[Dragonus45]

That's Fuego. Pyrofuego was, apparently, a supercharged version of his usual fire spell - not a literal Death Curse, but he was willing to burn himself out to power it.

Well the theory is that he did throw a death curse, but Michael saved him and stopped it from completing.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I'm going no. Since I seem to recall Pyrofuego popping up again when Harry used it on Tessa.

Also the effects of ones we've seen seem to be a litte more magical and curse-ish then just "oh imma burn down the building yo" because Harry burns down buildings without that extra help.

[The Glyphstone]

Yeah. I think we've only seen one death curse in action - that of Harry's mother, who cursed Lord Raith to be unable to feed, fundamentally warping a part of his supernatural condition. In Fool Moon, Harry's ideas of what to do with his death curse include removing the loup-garou curse from MacFinn, put there by a Saint and designed to endure until the end of time. Death curses appear to be uberspells, something impossible to do by means of any ordinary magic that wizard could pull off normally.

Though interesting on a previous note, Fool Moon also has an example of a spell where conservation of momentum is observed, though it uses a different spell than Harry's usual Forzare.

[Soras Teva Gee]

There's also "Die Alone" which may not be mighty in raw power but is still pretty magic-y since its not something you can make much of a pseudo-science explanation for.

And evidently was still in effect years later.

[The Glyphstone]

On a completely different note, I'm re-reading the series and found this passage in Grave Peril, Chapter 27:

She let her head fall back and laughed. "Oh, oh my, dear Knight, no. For once the Redeemer's blade was in your hands again, you would find the shattering of our pact a simple enough matter." Her eyes glittered again. "And you are, in any case, far too …

restricted, for my tastes. You are set in your ways. Unbendable."

Michael stiffened. "I serve the Lord as I may."

Lea made a face. "Faugh. Just so. Holy." Her smile turned sly again. "But there are others whose lives you hold and can bargain with. You have children, do you not?" She shivered again and said, "Mortal children are so sweet. And can be bent and shaped in so many, many ways. Your eldest daughter, I think, would-"

Then Michael tries to strangle her, but still...pretty ominous long-term forshadowing in retrospect.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Ehh I figured out Proven Guilty was all one big Xanatos Gambit on Mab's quite some time ago personally. However the scope of what she was going to get out of Molly is only now clear, I figured it was just eating up some free magical potential if Harry didn't show up to become her proxy agent of revenge.

[123456789blaaa]

I'm going no. Since I seem to recall Pyrofuego popping up again when Harry used it on Tessa.

Also the effects of ones we've seen seem to be a litte more magical and curse-ish then just "oh imma burn down the building yo" because Harry burns down buildings without that extra help.

Would you mind getting a quote for the pyrofuego on Tessa? I can't seem to find it.

What made me think that the pyrofuego was a death curse was that it was actually quite different from the other fire blasts Harry throws out. It jumps from RC vamp to RC vamp. It almost seems alive. It's like nothing we've ever seen before. We know from WoJ that death curses are special.

It would also be quite strange if Harry used enough magic to die (on purpose) and that he wouldn't make it a death curse. What would be the point?

Yeah. I think we've only seen one death curse in action - that of Harry's mother, who cursed Lord Raith to be unable to feed, fundamentally warping a part of his supernatural condition. In Fool Moon, Harry's ideas of what to do with his death curse include removing the loup-garou curse from MacFinn, put there by a Saint and designed to endure until the end of time. Death curses appear to be uberspells, something impossible to do by means of any ordinary magic that wizard could pull off normally.

Though interesting on a previous note, Fool Moon also has an example of a spell where conservation of momentum is observed, though it uses a different spell than Harry's usual Forzare.

See above.

There's also "Die Alone" which may not be mighty in raw power but is still pretty magic-y since its not something you can make much of a pseudo-science explanation for.

And evidently was still in effect years later.

Why can't you have a scientific explanation for it?

Magic in the Dresdenverse is shaped by you. You must believe in what you're doing with it for it to work. When you use magic you are enforcing your Will upon the world. It's influenced by your emotions and mindset.

I'm not seeing how that death curse was different than creating armor out of thin air or creating fire blasts or all the other stuff we've seen. In all those cases the wizards are enforcing their will on the world.

Cassius just wasn't able to muster up enough magic to make his death curse more focused.

Ehh I figured out Proven Guilty was all one big Xanatos Gambit on Mab's quite some time ago personally. However the scope of what she was going to get out of Molly is only now clear, I figured it was just eating up some free magical potential if Harry didn't show up to become her proxy agent of revenge.

Can you read this?: http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/i...c,35451.0.html

[Tavar]

I don't think that every piece of magic has to be done through physics. Just, well, if the magic uses things relatable to physics(heat, electricity, force, etc), then it must go through physics.

To use an analogy: I have money in a bank account, and a debit card. I can use the money in many ways, and though it's likely my most common usage is at a supermarket/grocery store(physics), not all my purchase have to be there.


To strain it further, normally I have a cap on how much I can buy at once. I can, however, use up my entire bank account at once, greatly expanding my options. This would leave me destitute.

[Mauve Shirt]

Come on now, everyone, sign up for Jim Butcher's forums. It takes three seconds and you don't have to post, and the Count's links will work.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Would you mind getting a quote for the pyrofuego on Tessa? I can't seem to find it.

You in luck I've recently got my library out of storage. First page of Chapter 44, in my hardcover its page 367. Right after Michael gets shot.

Then I drew in a breath, whirling a hand over my head and bellowed through my ragged throat, so loudly that it felt like something tore, "Fuego, pyrofuego!" I stabbed the first two finger of my right hand forward as I did, unleashing my fury and my will. "Burn!" -Harry

He then goes on to cast Forzare seconds later at Tessa and then run off leading into the Eldest Gruff confrontation and Nic fight.

Why can't you have a scientific explanation for it?

Magic in the Dresdenverse is shaped by you. You must believe in what you're doing with it for it to work. When you use magic you are enforcing your Will upon the world. It's influenced by your emotions and mindset.

Pseudo-science it for me then ala when Harry freezes water by sucking heat out of it.

Its at the very least ridiculously more complex to actually work. Fire leaping from one target to the next is nothing. Think about it, how do you define "alone" and "death" in manipulable terms for a force/energy (magic) to act against. Harry doesn't just magically throw people away so that he will always be alone, he doesn't walk around in a little bubble of empty space as people recieve a suggestion to avoid him. And that's just manufacturing the "alone" bit, whats the distance to merit alone. Oh since it isn't constant how does the curse know when Harry's death is coming to set it up how does know all the ways that Harry could potentially be killed. All of these have to be collated and defined like writing a computer program for the curse to be even pseudo-scientific.

Remember that things like "chance" and "luck" largely do not exist in physics they are simply "things we don't identify the cause of" as even say a doll of the dice is not technically random, its merely hard to casually identify all the relevant force vectors and variable friction.

To me its clear that "Die Alone" as is a part of magic that does no business with physics and instead acts as more as a concept to warp Harry's immaterial destiny to meet the intended conditions. Its not hard to understand at all but its completely separate from any scientific understanding. Even more then Harry's usual brand of not-really-science.

Done "scientifically" and the for complexity of such a thing Cassius should have easily been able to kill Harry

Can you read this?: http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/i...c,35451.0.html

Registered for lurking purposes awhile ago. On the poll options only the first one is supportable.

[Tavar]

Pseudo-science it for me then ala when Harry freezes water by sucking heat out of it.

Refrigerators/Heat pumps are Pseudo-Science?

[Soras Teva Gee]

Refrigerators/Heat pumps are Pseudo-Science?

Of course not that's what makes it pseudo-science when Harry simulates it with magic.

While I wouldn't want to speak for every method of cooling your typical refrigeration unit functions technically less by just moving heat but by dispersing heat using a particular chemical coolant and spreading it over a wide area in the accelerate a natural processes. And that's going to be bigger then. Those big parts of the AC outside the house. It simply won't work without highly specific conditions to trick out entropy.

Harry when freezing should be making an even bigger area warmer, not a concentrated blast of fire. He's picking an choosing what science his magic actually cares to use. Not science but science-y sounding handwaving like on Star Trek, ergo pseudo-science.

(Oh and he treats fire like the classical element. The only part of the fire tetrahedron he seems to care about is the heat, even granting the oxygen he's not once mentioned his fuel or the chemical reaction of rapid oxidization with a byproduct of luminous gases)

[123456789blaaa]

You in luck I've recently got my library out of storage. First page of Chapter 44, in my hardcover its page 367. Right after Michael gets shot.

Then I drew in a breath, whirling a hand over my head and bellowed through my ragged throat, so loudly that it felt like something tore, "Fuego, pyrofuego!" I stabbed the first two finger of my right hand forward as I did, unleashing my fury and my will. "Burn!" -Harry

He then goes on to cast Forzare seconds later at Tessa and then run off leading into the Eldest Gruff confrontation and Nic fight.

Interesting...an explanation for this would be "pyrofeugo" just being a normal spell which Harry just happened to use in GP because it was so powerfull. By the time of this quote comes around he's much more experienced and powerfull so he can use it without dieing (though he still doesn't want to use it on a regular basis).

Pseudo-science it for me then ala when Harry freezes water by sucking heat out of it.

Its at the very least ridiculously more complex to actually work. Fire leaping from one target to the next is nothing. Think about it, how do you define "alone" and "death" in manipulable terms for a force/energy (magic) to act against. Harry doesn't just magically throw people away so that he will always be alone, he doesn't walk around in a little bubble of empty space as people recieve a suggestion to avoid him. And that's just manufacturing the "alone" bit, whats the distance to merit alone. Oh since it isn't constant how does the curse know when Harry's death is coming to set it up how does know all the ways that Harry could potentially be killed. All of these have to be collated and defined like writing a computer program for the curse to be even pseudo-scientific.

Remember that things like "chance" and "luck" largely do not exist in physics they are simply "things we don't identify the cause of" as even say a doll of the dice is not technically random, its merely hard to casually identify all the relevant force vectors and variable friction.

To me its clear that "Die Alone" as is a part of magic that does no business with physics and instead acts as more as a concept to warp Harry's immaterial destiny to meet the intended conditions. Its not hard to understand at all but its completely separate from any scientific understanding. Even more then Harry's usual brand of not-really-science.

Done "scientifically" and the for complexity of such a thing Cassius should have easily been able to kill Harry

A lot of magic is subconcious. Harry thinks "fire blast in this direction" and a fire blast comes out. It still interacts with the world like fire (unless he focuses his will and gives more magic to make it not act like that). Remember his shield that got his hand burned when he was fighting Mavra's minions?

When Cassius did his death curse it was a very quick thing. He had no spellcasting aids and he was very tired and beat up. His death curse was probably influenced by a lot of things like his former black magic usage, his age, his personality, his mindset at the time etc. All of these factors influenced how it played out.

A single spell is influenced by hundreds of factors and all of those factors (that we've seen so far) are at least somewhat measurable. For example emotions help boost Will (which boosts the strength of a spell). I see no reason why you couldn't measure the exact chemicals that cause anger and preform tests to see how much of it impacts the strength of the spell.

Registered for lurking purposes awhile ago. On the poll options only the first one is supportable.

Weird...I can choose all of them just fine.

Of course not that's what makes it pseudo-science when Harry simulates it with magic.

While I wouldn't want to speak for every method of cooling your typical refrigeration unit functions technically less by just moving heat but by dispersing heat using a particular chemical coolant and spreading it over a wide area in the accelerate a natural processes. And that's going to be bigger then. Those big parts of the AC outside the house. It simply won't work without highly specific conditions to trick out entropy.

Harry when freezing should be making an even bigger area warmer, not a concentrated blast of fire. He's picking an choosing what science his magic actually cares to use. Not science but science-y sounding handwaving like on Star Trek, ergo pseudo-science.

(Oh and he treats fire like the classical element. The only part of the fire tetrahedron he seems to care about is the heat, even granting the oxygen he's not once mentioned his fuel or the chemical reaction of rapid oxidization with a byproduct of luminous gases)

The various elemental systems are simply mental crutches to help wizards focus their effects more clearly. For most wizards, if they can think of a blast as “fire” rather than “the ramifications of thermonuclear force,” they're more likely to pull it off successfully.

Harry uses the "classical" elemental system because that's what he's grown up with and that fits his personality. Theoretically he could use any kind of system. Heck, he could use Mage:the Awakenings Arcana system if he wanted!

It's purely a mental construct. Just something to help him focus (like his blasting rod and staff).

[Eldan]

Or perhaps magic is simply easier the closer they keep it to the normal laws of nature?