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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    might be an O'Brien or O'Niel. the O'Briens are decent from Brian Boru and the O'Niels where the last high kings of tara before boru took over. and then it went back to the O'niels after Boru's death, or U'niel as they where called at the time. also the O'niels where the most common rebel leaders against the english over the centuries.

    an other thing, is that high kings of tara where voted in, so there was not a specific family just some that where far more common then others.

    there are a lot of options from irish myth considering the authors disposition to use myth.

    Míl Espáine, (Milesians) the guy who conquered ireland from the Tuatha Dé Danann in prehistory establishing tara as the seat of it's kings. that would set her as a natural enemy of the fay courts. giving lots of future plot hooks

    Milesian Genealogies
    http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~fi.../milesian.html

    a quick google search show that clann murphy claim direct decent from the mileasians. :)

    http://www.clanmurphy.com/clanhistory.html

    and i quote

    "Clan History

    The surname Murphy or in Irish, O Murchadha (meaning strong or superior), anglicised O'Murchoe and finally anglicised to it’s present form, Murphy, traces it origin from Milesians, King of Spain, through the line of his son, Heremon the first absolute King of Ireland, 504 BC. The Murphy Clan, or ancient term Hy Felimy, i.e. descendant to Felimy, so called as they descended from Feidhlim, son of the celebrated Enna Kinsellagh, King of Laighlin (i.e. province of Leinster), in the fifth century and in direct line from Dermot McMurrough, King of the Province of Leinster 1110 Ad to 1171 AD. The family name of the chieftain of the Murphy Clan is called "the O Morchoe". The family motto is "Fortes et Hospitatis", meaning Strong and Hospitable, a second motto, "to conquer rather than die" is also associated with the name. The surname Murphy and the variant forms is the most common surname in the whole of Ireland. "
    Last edited by cucchulainnn; 2012-08-28 at 10:26 AM.
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  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    It has been mentioned in the books that the swords can be reforged into new shapes, which was also the explanation for one of them being a Katana.
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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    Quote Originally Posted by cucchulainnn View Post
    *awesome research*
    Thanks a bunch Lancer, I think we have an answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    It has been mentioned in the books that the swords can be reforged into new shapes, which was also the explanation for one of them being a Katana.
    Yes though this is well, of dubious value. See a katana has a specific forging process and structure as a result. So I'm not sure one could "reforge" a different sword into being and not without essentially completely melting down and destroying it and recycling some materials which potentially raises Ship of Theseus issues.

    Mind you if its just the shape that's another matter but that makes it a "katana" in the same way those overpriced ones you buy in the asian theme knick-knack shops are.

    Of course doesn't mean its a less effective weapon if it was made with actual decent metal stock in the first place. The katana only exists like it does because Japan has such poor iron and they made the best of it. Its already canon that, having a Bloody Nail of the Savior of Mankind worked into them means they can't really be destroyed anyways. Presumably this also wards off rust and dullness.

    I really do just hand wave these issue (A wizard did it!) just kinda wondering if anyone's ever posed the question to him or considered it.

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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    Well, if he does a book signing here in KC (pretty likely since he lives here), I'll try to remember that question and ask him.

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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    Thanks a bunch Lancer, I think we have an answer.



    Yes though this is well, of dubious value. See a katana has a specific forging process and structure as a result. So I'm not sure one could "reforge" a different sword into being and not without essentially completely melting down and destroying it and recycling some materials which potentially raises Ship of Theseus issues.

    Mind you if its just the shape that's another matter but that makes it a "katana" in the same way those overpriced ones you buy in the asian theme knick-knack shops are.

    Of course doesn't mean its a less effective weapon if it was made with actual decent metal stock in the first place. The katana only exists like it does because Japan has such poor iron and they made the best of it. Its already canon that, having a Bloody Nail of the Savior of Mankind worked into them means they can't really be destroyed anyways. Presumably this also wards off rust and dullness.

    I really do just hand wave these issue (A wizard did it!) just kinda wondering if anyone's ever posed the question to him or considered it.
    I think destroyed and reforged applies to the shell around the nail. As long as the nail survives a new sword forged with the nail as its core. So it could be a properly forged traditional katana instead of a cheap knockoff.
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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    I think destroyed and reforged applies to the shell around the nail. As long as the nail survives a new sword forged with the nail as its core. So it could be a properly forged traditional katana instead of a cheap knockoff.
    yes, but the process of forging a katana is all about starting out with a billet and repeatedly folding it to draw out impurities. this would mean adding it as an initial layer in the billet. which means that it will be thinned and spread between the layers. after so many folds it stops being a nail and become incorporated into the base metal. sure a piece of paper is wood but it has been preprocessed to the point that is is not a board.

    unless you are saying that a cavity is left in the sword some place which contains the nail. for instance under the grip? which is what i assume and how i would do it as the smith. such as the spear of destiny have a nail still recognizable as nails.



    Soras Teva Gee, thanks,
    i am big into mythology and folk tails which is one of the reasons i enjoy these books. it just fits, not sure if he will do it that way. i hope he dose it would be really cool, fertile ground for problems for harry to navigate. especially as the knight of winter.

    i can easily see the monarchs of the of never never tolerating a daughter of Miles but once she has a holy sword it becomes a completely different situation. old grievances for the descendants of the destroyer of their civilization bubbling up. according to irish myths the children of Miles drove the Tuatha Dé Danann out of the mortal world forcing them to live under hills, equivalent of the never never. which according to most related folk tails is the reason most fairies/leprechaun/elves are malevolent.

    she is a decedent of the destroyer and now has the means to wreak havoc.
    Last edited by cucchulainnn; 2012-08-28 at 01:54 PM.
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  7. - Top - End - #157
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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    IIRC the Nail is worked into the Hilt of the sword, not the blade itself.

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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    Its been awhile but I've always taken worked into the hilt as still referring to the part of the hilt that is still the same piece of metal as the blade. Not merely strapped into the decorations.

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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    Could be either. Anyway, it wouldn't really be Kusanagi anymore.

    Also, isn't Kusanagi still around? Or a sword that's claimed to be Kusanagi?
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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Could be either. Anyway, it wouldn't really be Kusanagi anymore.

    Also, isn't Kusanagi still around? Or a sword that's claimed to be Kusanagi?
    My understanding has always been that it's not the "real" Kusanagi (or Exaclibur or Durnendal), but the "idea" of that blade, so it has a certain kind of realness to it that, for the function it serves, is as suitable if not more so than actually being that physical blade.

    That . . . made little sense.
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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    In on of the bigger temples in Japan supposedly has it under lock and key yeah. There's been more then a few incidents in the swords history though make it well.... Shroud of Turin case all over again

    Of course you can supposedly actually go and see Durandal sticking out of a cliff.

    Obviously the Dresdenverse picks and choses which particular parts of myths are true. Which is evident simply by making the identification, I think Kusanagi as Ame-no-Murakumo-no-Tsurugi is supposed to predate Imperial line and by extension Anno Domini going from when Susanoo cut it out of Orochi, and even Yamato Takeru if taken to be historical is within a century of Christ's death.

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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    while Michael's sword is supposedly Excalibur, we have no evidence that any of the other sword are famous historically. And with the whole "Reforging" thing, we have no way of tracing any of those swords to their current forms. One of the swords is a Katana now, but it may not always have been.

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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    Darned board errors.
    Last edited by hamlet; 2012-08-28 at 04:44 PM.
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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    while Michael's sword is supposedly Excalibur, we have no evidence that any of the other sword are famous historically. And with the whole "Reforging" thing, we have no way of tracing any of those swords to their current forms. One of the swords is a Katana now, but it may not always have been.
    So you haven't read or missed that page in Ghost Story?

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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    So you haven't read or missed that page in Ghost Story?
    Apparently I have not.

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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    I'm pulling for Harry/Elaine.

    For anyone who wasn't aware, Jim just posted the first chapter of Cold Days on his website and will be posting a new chapter each week till the book comes out. Though I understand that the first two chapters have already been released in the paperback of Ghost Story. I must try to find those online somewhere or else go down to the book store and treat it like a library for a bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    Apparently I have not.
    In Ghost Story a ghost refers to the three swords as Excalibur, Durendal, and Kusanagi. A quick Google reveals that Durendal was the sword of Charlemagne's paladin Roland and has a cool story attached to it, while Kusanagi is a sword of Japanese legend with lots of cool stories attached.
    Last edited by datalaughing; 2012-10-31 at 05:12 PM.
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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    Well... he's very good at writing what the Fae should be like, I'll admit that. Because damn, Mab is somehow managing to be funny, sexy, terrifying and confusing at the same time.
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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Maugan Ra View Post
    Well... he's very good at writing what the Fae should be like, I'll admit that. Because damn, Mab is somehow managing to be funny, sexy, terrifying and confusing at the same time.
    which is why she's on some level exactly my favorite character. I can't wait to see it cold days published completely. It woudl certainly put my reading of Sherlock Holmes on hold

    and it is believed that Kusanagi is currently owned by the japanese royal family along with the matagama and soem other artefacts that are not shared or shown publicly. though this might just be another rumour.

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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    That chapter was pretty great.

    I took notice of one line in particular, though.
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    "Mab couldn’t kill a mortal, but to her I was no longer one of them."

    I thought the whole point of the Winter and Summer Knights were that they did formally count as mortals?
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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Weimann View Post
    That chapter was pretty great.

    I took notice of one line in particular, though.
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    "Mab couldn’t kill a mortal, but to her I was no longer one of them."

    I thought the whole point of the Winter and Summer Knights were that they did formally count as mortals?
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    Ehm, yeah, the thing is: knights are still 'kind of' mortal, but bound to the queens while 'regular' mortals are not bound to anyone so Mab can't really affect them unless she has a hold over them (like some kind of favor ir servitude). Long story short, Harry is Mab's proverbial bitch and ultimate toy/plaything. Besides, mot times a dose of power comes with attached 'benefits'.


    Edit: I curse you Jim. I curse you. You've got me hooked again and now I can't wait anymore, just as I had gone cold turkey... I curse you! *stomps away frustrated*
    Last edited by Socratov; 2012-11-01 at 08:13 AM.

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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    It does not surprise me that the position of "Knight of the [Season] Court" means that it's current occupant counts as mortal in all ways that would be advantageous for the Sidhe Queens, and not mortal in any way that would present an inconvenience for them.

    Because, you know. Fae.
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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    What I'm wondering is, does Harry still qualify as a mortal wizard for the purposes of the White Council? If he were to break one of the laws of magic now, would they still come and kill him, or does he have sort of diplomatic immunity where they wouldn't want to kill him and start a fight with Winter?
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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    Quote Originally Posted by datalaughing View Post
    What I'm wondering is, does Harry still qualify as a mortal wizard for the purposes of the White Council? If he were to break one of the laws of magic now, would they still come and kill him, or does he have sort of diplomatic immunity where they wouldn't want to kill him and start a fight with Winter?
    It would probably fall somewhere inbetween, "Hey, let's not piss off Mab. That's always a bad idea." and "Oh no, he's going warlock. We gotta finish this before he becomes even more powerful!"

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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    He might not be allowed to be a Warden anymore... Kind of a conflict of interest probably. And they wouldn't want to chop his head off now. He can probably bargain for Molly's release from the Doom, but that would be TOO EASY.
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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Mauve Shirt View Post
    He might not be allowed to be a Warden anymore... Kind of a conflict of interest probably. And they wouldn't want to chop his head off now. He can probably bargain for Molly's release from the Doom, but that would be TOO EASY.
    Indeed, Harry isn't allowed for anything (positive) to be easy for him.

    It's also possible that despite his affection for Molly, he might understand that she might not be ready to be free of the Doom after how he saw how she was in Ghost Story. I'm personally interested in hearing what will happen when Molly is brought back before the Council at some point, given that it's pretty explicit that she has seriously violated her probation (and not just in her actions in the Big Reveal in Book 13).

    I'm really looking forward to the new release, since dealing with the particulars of Harry rejoining the world of the living will be most interesting.
    Last edited by Sinfonian; 2012-11-01 at 09:34 PM.

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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfonian View Post
    Indeed, Harry isn't allowed for anything (positive) to be easy for him.

    It's also possible that despite his affection for Molly, he might understand that she might not be ready to be free of the Doom after how he saw how she was in Ghost Story. I'm personally interested in hearing what will happen when Molly is brought back before the Council at some point, given that it's pretty explicit that she has seriously violated her probation (and not just in her actions in the Big Reveal in Book 13).

    I'm really looking forward to the new release, since dealing with the particulars of Harry rejoining the world of the living will be most interesting.
    I can tell you what will happen: chaos will ensue. And I mean, total utter chaos. **** will hit the fan like never before. I mean what is probably the worst idea to do with a trigger happy evocation specialist wizard? giving him more power. and ofcourse more power. i'm curious as to what his powerbump will be: is it something like incantatrix where he has total hax now, or more like doubling his manabar?

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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfonian View Post
    given that it's pretty explicit that she has seriously violated her probation.
    I don't know that that's true. I mean, the big reveal at the end doesn't count. You're allowed to go into someone's mind with their permission. Otherwise there would have been no way to legally fix the stuff Peabody did back in Turn Coat.

    And she hasn't killed anyone with magic. She's used magic to trick people into killing each other or maybe getting themselves killed, but that's not a violation of the laws. I mean, I know it's a thin line, but you can see the same distinction in the way the wardens operate. They're allowed to use magic to subdue a warlock and hold him in place, but the actual killing part has to be with a sword or a gun or something equally non-magical.

    I think she's actually followed Harry's example and tried hard to fight evil without technically violating any of the laws of magic. Though I will say she's tread a lot more closely to the line than Harry typically does.
    "Hell, I'll kill a man in a fair fight ... or if I think he's gonna start a fair fight, or if he bothers me, or if there's a woman, or if I'm gettin' paid. Mostly only when I'm gettin' paid, but ... eating people alive? Where's that get fun?" - Jayne

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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    Thing is, since she's already under the Doom, the Wardens will be actively waiting for her to step out of line, just like with Harry. Even treading the line might be enough for them to prosecute her.
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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    Quote Originally Posted by datalaughing View Post
    I don't know that that's true. I mean, the big reveal at the end doesn't count. You're allowed to go into someone's mind with their permission. Otherwise there would have been no way to legally fix the stuff Peabody did back in Turn Coat.

    And she hasn't killed anyone with magic. She's used magic to trick people into killing each other or maybe getting themselves killed, but that's not a violation of the laws. I mean, I know it's a thin line, but you can see the same distinction in the way the wardens operate. They're allowed to use magic to subdue a warlock and hold him in place, but the actual killing part has to be with a sword or a gun or something equally non-magical.

    I think she's actually followed Harry's example and tried hard to fight evil without technically violating any of the laws of magic. Though I will say she's tread a lot more closely to the line than Harry typically does.
    No, it is said that damaged minds have the chance (if the damage is not too severe) to repair themselves. (Something about minds going back into their natural state if left alone enough).

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming

    Quote Originally Posted by datalaughing View Post
    And she hasn't killed anyone with magic. She's used magic to trick people into killing each other or maybe getting themselves killed, but that's not a violation of the laws. I mean, I know it's a thin line, but you can see the same distinction in the way the wardens operate. They're allowed to use magic to subdue a warlock and hold him in place, but the actual killing part has to be with a sword or a gun or something equally non-magical.
    I'm pretty sure that using magic in a way that directly leads to the death of a mortal counts as a violation. I can't be absolutely certain, but I remember Harry reflecting that using a blast of force against someone who then falls off a roof and dies counts (or it could have been starting a fire, which then burns people to death, I can't quite recall). The fall (or the building fire) might be the direct cause of death, rather than the magic itself, but it is a foreseeable consequence of the spell. And that's aside from the fact that they might not accept the offered excuse of a convicted warlock that some of the more direct killings were done by the Leanansidhe using the Rag Lady persona. Oh, and even though she's unlikely to have to deal with it anymore, it's clear that she violated the Law with Captain Luccio.

    Quote Originally Posted by Socratov View Post
    I can tell you what will happen: chaos will ensue. And I mean, total utter chaos. **** will hit the fan like never before. I mean what is probably the worst idea to do with a trigger happy evocation specialist wizard? giving him more power. and ofcourse more power. i'm curious as to what his powerbump will be: is it something like incantatrix where he has total hax now, or more like doubling his manabar?
    Minor nitpick: Harry is not an evocation specialist, despite the fairly prominent use of that kind of magic. He says several times in the series that he's actually not especially good with them, which is why he needs his staff, blasting rod, and shield bracelet. He makes up for it by having a lot of innate power that he can throw behind the spells. Harry's personal talent is actually thaumaturgy.
    Last edited by Sinfonian; 2012-11-02 at 09:48 AM.

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