Dresden Files: Winter is coming (Cold Days Spoilers)

[Socratov]

I'm pretty sure that using magic in a way that directly leads to the death of a mortal counts as a violation. I can't be absolutely certain, but I remember Harry reflecting that using a blast of force against someone who then falls off a roof and dies counts (or it could have been starting a fire, which then burns people to death, I can't quite recall). The fall (or initial fire spell) might be the direct cause of death, rather than the magic itself, but it is a directly foreseeable consequence of the spell. And that's aside from the fact that they might not accept the offered excuse of a convicted warlock that some of the more direct killings were done by the Leanansidhe using the Rag Lady persona.



Minor nitpick: Harry is not an evocation specialist, despite the fairly prominent use of that kind of magic. He says several times in the series that he's actually not especially good with them, which is why he needs his staff, blasting rod, and shield bracelet. He makes up for it by having a lot of innate power that he can throw behind the spells. Harry's personal talent is actually thaumaturgy.

While true, he does grow astoundingly in using evocation. He uses his spells more efficiently, he crafts better rods and other foci and uses more powerful spells. He definately isn't in the beginning, however, gets close towards the end...

[Sinfonian]

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It doesn't hurt that he wields hellfire for three books (four, if you count when he wasn't using it on purpose). Then, once he loses that, gains access to soulfire in the following book.

Edit: I'm putting that in a spoiler, because it's nothing but. The previous stuff I said was either easy to figure out from general knowledge about the books, or was vague. But that pretty much spoils no fewer than 3 books.

[datalaughing]

No, it is said that damaged minds have the chance (if the damage is not too severe) to repair themselves. (Something about minds going back into their natural state if left alone enough).

The book specifically says that the Merlin, the Gatekeeper, and Injun Joe were investigating what had been done to people, which involved going into their minds because one line says, "near every Warden under the age of fifty had been programmed with that go-to-sleep trance command, and it had been done so smoothly and subtly that it was difficult to detect even when the master wizards were looking and knew where to find it." I don't know where they'd be finding it if not in their minds.

Then the next paragraph goes on to say, "Several of them, apparently, had been intended to become the supernatural equivalent of suicide bombers—the way Luccio had been. Repairing that kind of damage was difficult, unpredictable, and often painful to the victim." Those people definitely aren't going back to normal on their own.

it's clear that she violated the Law with Captain Luccio.

This is true, but the only living people who know about that are Harry and Molly. Morgan knew, but as he was dying he said he never told anyone. So that's covered for now at least. Also, I think there's a difference between pushing someone off a roof or starting a fire and tricking someone else into killing someone. In your examples there's no one else making a choice. When Molly makes it look like someone is holding a gun instead of a bag of money, it's the other person's choice to shoot that person instead of running away or something, and she's a little vague on if she's been mainly engineering the deaths of turtlenecks or regular people. The turtlenecks don't count as human any more, like vampires who used to be human no longer count. So if she made it look like the turtleneck had a gun and the cop shot him but then the turtleneck also shot the cop before dying, can you say that her magic caused the cop to die? I think it's way too grey to make a call on that.

Thing is, since she's already under the Doom, the Wardens will be actively waiting for her to step out of line, just like with Harry. Even treading the line might be enough for them to prosecute her.

Well, they were already hunting her in Ghost Story since Harry was thought to be dead. I wonder if they will stop now that he's back. Lea was taking over his job of training her while he was out of commission. So does he just step back in and she becomes his apprentice again? It seems like being apprentice to the Winter Knight will be rather different.

[Soras Teva Gee]

This is true, but the only living people who know about that are Harry and Molly. Morgan knew, but as he was dying he said he never told anyone. So that's covered for now at least. Also, I think there's a difference between pushing someone off a roof or starting a fire and tricking someone else into killing someone. In your examples there's no one else making a choice. When Molly makes it look like someone is holding a gun instead of a bag of money, it's the other person's choice to shoot that person instead of running away or something, and she's a little vague on if she's been mainly engineering the deaths of turtlenecks or regular people. The turtlenecks don't count as human any more, like vampires who used to be human no longer count. So if she made it look like the turtleneck had a gun and the cop shot him but then the turtleneck also shot the cop before dying, can you say that her magic caused the cop to die? I think it's way too grey to make a call on that.

I think we all know what the Council would say here. The only thing grey they have are the cloaks the Warden's wear when they premptively chop off your head just to be sure. Fortunately presumably don't know about that stuff. (And it would be very likely if they even know about the Rag Lady the idea that some half-trained apprentice to an idiot like Dresden would demand more braincells then are available)

Though Molly probably clears the "mechanical" aspect of how the Laws of Magic cover magic that is inherently corrupting.

Well, they were already hunting her in Ghost Story since Harry was thought to be dead. I wonder if they will stop now that he's back. Lea was taking over his job of training her while he was out of commission. So does he just step back in and she becomes his apprentice again? It seems like being apprentice to the Winter Knight will be rather different.

Well hunting her in the sense that Ramirez popped by once or twice.

Given that its Molly not Harry she *might* even catch a break. And they are looking for her to because someone like Ebenezar has agreed to take over for Harry. Or there's going to be something to release to the relationship like when Harry left the Ozarks. Not likely but there. It would explain how Ramirez is able to drag his feet on the matter, she's not actually a wanted woman per say.

[Sinfonian]

(And it would be very likely if they even know about the Rag Lady the idea that some half-trained apprentice to an idiot like Dresden would demand more braincells then are available)

I honestly can't tell what you mean by this. Can you rephrase?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I honestly can't tell what you mean by this. Can you rephrase?

I believe that's supposed to be "(And it would be very likely if they even know about the Rag Lady the idea that she would turn out to be some half-trained apprentice to an idiot like Dresden would demand more braincells then are available)." As in, the Council regards Dresden as an all-power no-finesse warlock-in-the-making who couldn't train an apprentice to save his life and Molly as a weak one trick pony warlock-in-the-making who's only dangerous because her one trick happens to be against the Laws of Magic--it wouldn't even cross their mind that the powerful, mysterious, competent wizard protecting Chicago would be the whiny emo goth apprenticed to the evil loose cannon.

[Socratov]

I believe that's supposed to be "(And it would be very likely if they even know about the Rag Lady the idea that she would turn out to be some half-trained apprentice to an idiot like Dresden would demand more braincells then are available)." As in, the Council regards Dresden as an all-power no-finesse warlock-in-the-making who couldn't train an apprentice to save his life and Molly as a weak one trick pony warlock-in-the-making who's only dangerous because her one trick happens to be against the Laws of Magic--it wouldn't even cross their mind that the powerful, mysterious, competent wizard protecting Chicago would be the whiny emo goth apprenticed to the evil loose cannon.

Ofcourse not. That would involve common sense

Let alone involvement of the fey to factor into the equation

[Somebloke]

The real question with Molly is- Jim is cruel, but is he cruel enough for Harry to be the one to put an out-of-control Molly down?

One thing I can predict that at some point-maybe not now, but maybe later- Harry is going to have to throw down against his friends- Murphy, the alphas, etc. possibly under Lashiel's influence or similar.

[thorgrim29]

The thing is, Harry is pretty far out of the weight class of most of his friends, excluding McCoy and Sanya if he's acting under orders from upstairs, even more so now that he's the winter knight. Hell, as winter knight, he'd presumably be able to survive hand to hand with murphy long enough to use magic, he's now physically much stronger and tougher, and has more magic then before. With Morgan gone, he's stronger if less experienced then the wardens vets, he'd toss the alphas around like rag dolls, etc... The only "good" guys I can see going against him now with a fair shot of winning are the senior council members, a bunch of wardens at once, or Sanya.

[Sinfonian]

The thing is, Harry is pretty far out of the weight class of most of his friends, excluding McCoy and Sanya if he's acting under orders from upstairs, even more so now that he's the winter knight. Hell, as winter knight, he'd presumably be able to survive hand to hand with murphy long enough to use magic, he's now physically much stronger and tougher, and has more magic then before. With Morgan gone, he's stronger if less experienced then the wardens vets, he'd toss the alphas around like rag dolls, etc... The only "good" guys I can see going against him now with a fair shot of winning are the senior council members, a bunch of wardens at once, or Sanya.

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Don't forget Kincaid. He's done it once already.

Though I wouldn't be surprised if they had Harry deal with a similar situation again in the future to show how far he has come since his return.

With regard to Molly, I think that should would not be beyond consideration from the White Council in the actions taken by the Rag Lady. They've shown a propensity in the past to immediately suspect those who have previously crossed the line. The FIRST person they'd suspect of violating the Laws would be the person that they already had convicted of doing so in the past.

[Eldan]

The thing is, Harry is pretty far out of the weight class of most of his friends, excluding McCoy and Sanya if he's acting under orders from upstairs, even more so now that he's the winter knight. Hell, as winter knight, he'd presumably be able to survive hand to hand with murphy long enough to use magic, he's now physically much stronger and tougher, and has more magic then before. With Morgan gone, he's stronger if less experienced then the wardens vets, he'd toss the alphas around like rag dolls, etc... The only "good" guys I can see going against him now with a fair shot of winning are the senior council members, a bunch of wardens at once, or Sanya.

Where the exact benefits of knighthood ever mentioned in any of the books? I can't recall it. Are physical upgrades included? Maybe they are tailored to the knigth in question, and Harry would mostly get wintery magic?

Hm. Harry throwing ice instead of fire would be interesting.

[Sinfonian]

Hm. Harry throwing ice instead of fire would be interesting.

He showed a pretty good instinct for that in Changes, with what we saw. It was at its best when he was mixing it with his standard repertoire.

And you're right, there's no indication what being a Knight really means, aside from being accountable to the Queen of their Court. Harry, for one thing, feels it unjust that he has not been granted some degree of resistance to cold.

[Lamech]

Where the exact benefits of knighthood ever mentioned in any of the books? I can't recall it. Are physical upgrades included? Maybe they are tailored to the knigth in question, and Harry would mostly get wintery magic?

Hm. Harry throwing ice instead of fire would be interesting.

The first winter knight we see is much physically tougher. I think he eats a nasty blast from Harry unscathed. And he takes a huge whirlwind of ice for the Winter Lady to stop. I think Harry noted increased physical strength. And Harry got cool new ice magic.

Of course, this does come with the flaw of being faerie magic. The first winter knight had a rough time of it the second someone brought a piece of steel across his spine. Which means winter knight Harry still needs to be afraid of steel jacketed rounds.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I believe that's supposed to be "(And it would be very likely if they even know about the Rag Lady the idea that she would turn out to be some half-trained apprentice to an idiot like Dresden would demand more braincells then are available)." As in, the Council regards Dresden as an all-power no-finesse warlock-in-the-making who couldn't train an apprentice to save his life and Molly as a weak one trick pony warlock-in-the-making who's only dangerous because her one trick happens to be against the Laws of Magic--it wouldn't even cross their mind that the powerful, mysterious, competent wizard protecting Chicago would be the whiny emo goth apprenticed to the evil loose cannon.

Pretty much, and its more likely they have no idea about there being a Rag Lady period.

With regard to Molly, I think that should would not be beyond consideration from the White Council in the actions taken by the Rag Lady. They've shown a propensity in the past to immediately suspect those who have previously crossed the line. The FIRST person they'd suspect of violating the Laws would be the person that they already had convicted of doing so in the past.

If they sent someone out to investigate a case she was involved in and were able to correctly deduce that it was magic involved. It would require actual effort to distinguish the cause, especially as Molly is not just hitting the mind rape button but playing with less direct methods.

Otherwise the reports the Council has are probably along the lines of "probable Fomor agents turn up dead often in Chicago" mixed with several conflicting rumors on how/why this occurred. And it gets sorted to the bottom of the stack because Chicago is doing rather well all considered compared to the hundred fronts the White Council is busy covering.

If they haven't even just written off Chicago since they don't have a resident Warden anymore. And aren't getting anything but what Murphy and the Paranet are feeding to Rodriguez.

[Sinfonian]

Rodriguez

I think you mean Ramirez. He would be most offended that someone as charming and talented as himself would be taken as forgettable enough to get his name wrong.

The one Rodriguez in the story is most thoroughly gone, now.

[Eldan]

I wouldn't be so sure about that. If I'm not mistaken, Thou shalt not raise the dead (or somesuch) is one of hte laws of magic. Which seems to imply that it's possible, or at least that people have attempted it.

[The Glyphstone]

I wouldn't be so sure about that. If I'm not mistaken, Thou shalt not raise the dead (or somesuch) is one of hte laws of magic. Which seems to imply that it's possible, or at least that people have attempted it.

Not raising the dead specifically, but Necromancy - summoning and binding the unwilling spirits of the dead. Plus, since she was a Vampire when she was killed, there wouldn't be anything to summon back anymore.

[123456789blaaa]

Not raising the dead specifically, but Necromancy - summoning and binding the unwilling spirits of the dead. <snip>.

There is actually some confusion on this. In the RPG they say that you bind really dumb spirits from the NN so...

[The Glyphstone]

There is actually some confusion on this. In the RPG they say that you bind really dumb spirits from the NN so...

Which makes no sense, because the very first book of the series is where Harry gets one over on Morgan by pointing out that the Laws of Magic don't apply to creatures of the NeverNever, or non-humans in general. So if Necromancy involved binding Nevernever spirits, there wouldn't be a Law against it. Or did I misunderstand what you're saying?

[Lamech]

Not raising the dead specifically, but Necromancy - summoning and binding the unwilling spirits of the dead. Plus, since she was a Vampire when she was killed, there wouldn't be anything to summon back anymore.

There are a couple of renditions of the 5th law. There is reaching beyond the "boarder of life and death". Only applicable to humans of course.
And then there is the "summoning and binding the unwilling spirits of the dead." Again the part about humans only is left unmentioned.

If you note the first definition doesn't qualify anything with "unwilling". Reaching across those boarders is badness period. No exception for bringing back gangbangers who got shot in a drug war. The second definition on the other hand lets you raise anyone who want as long as they are willing.

And of course, there are rumors of necromancers raising the dead, and we see one of the necromancers do exactly that in dead beat.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I think you mean Ramirez. He would be most offended that someone as charming and talented as himself would be taken as forgettable enough to get his name wrong.

The one Rodriguez in the story is most thoroughly gone, now.

Well at least the Rodriguez in the story is more experienced then the Ramirez...

but yeah and I've had those names crossed like ALL DAY to boot. Gahhh.

[Somebloke]

You know, as time goes on the world changes, with new fads and cultural shifts, it is important for the Dresden Files to stay abreast of these so as to continue building a realistic, recognizable world.

With that in mind, I have one serious question that I expect Jim to answer in this new book:

What does Bob think of Fifty Shades of Grey?

[123456789blaaa]

Which makes no sense, because the very first book of the series is where Harry gets one over on Morgan by pointing out that the Laws of Magic don't apply to creatures of the NeverNever, or non-humans in general. So if Necromancy involved binding Nevernever spirits, there wouldn't be a Law against it. Or did I misunderstand what you're saying?

You didn't. I don't get it either. I suppose the RPG guys just messed up *shrugs*. Unfortunately this damages the credibility of using the RPG as evidence for speculation on the books .

EDIT: though he does say in the first book that the "binding" Law is the only one that applies to nonhumans.

[The Glyphstone]

You know, as time goes on the world changes, with new fads and cultural shifts, it is important for the Dresden Files to stay abreast of these so as to continue building a realistic, recognizable world.

With that in mind, I have one serious question that I expect Jim to answer in this new book:

What does Bob think of Fifty Shades of Grey?

He thinks Harlequin Romances are quality literature, I'm pretty sure FSoG is right up his alley.

You didn't. I don't get it either. I suppose the RPG guys just messed up *shrugs*. Unfortunately this damages the credibility of using the RPG as evidence for speculation on the books .

EDIT: though he does say in the first book that the "binding" Law is the only one that applies to nonhumans.

I think you've got it backwards - that scene is where he says the 'Binding' law - "Thou Shall Not Enthrall Another" specifically doesn't apply to nonhumans, with Toot-Toot. The prohibition against Necromancy is a separate Law.

[123456789blaaa]

I think you've got it backwards - that scene is where he says the 'Binding' law - "Thou Shall Not Enthrall Another" specifically doesn't apply to nonhumans, with Toot-Toot. The prohibition against Necromancy is a separate Law.

I am tragically seperated from my books right now but IIRC Harry specifically points out that putting Toot-Toot in the circle with his Name is specifically not a violation of the "Binding" Law to Morrigan.

Remember that scene when Harry is fighting with Victor where Harry uses Kalshazzacks Name and specifically points out that he won't control him? He just lets Kalshazzak free because he doesn't want to break the "binding" Law.

[The Glyphstone]

I am tragically seperated from my books right now but IIRC Harry specifically points out that putting Toot-Toot in the circle with his Name is specifically not a violation of the "Binding" Law to Morrigan.

Remember that scene when Harry is fighting with Victor where Harry uses Kalshazzacks Name and specifically points out that he won't control him? He just lets Kalshazzak free because he doesn't want to break the "binding" Law.

I thought that was just because he didn't want to be ordering a demon around, not because it would be a violation of the 4th law - though the Wiki article does say this is implied to extend to Nevernever denizens.

[123456789blaaa]

I thought that was just because he didn't want to be ordering a demon around, not because it would be a violation of the 4th law - though the Wiki article does say this is implied to extend to Nevernever denizens.

If it helps, I've been using this interpretation of the binding Law on the DF forums and no one has said I'm wrong yet (142 posts).

It also seems strange to me that Harry would risk having his head bitten off and a dangerous warlock going free because he thinks controlling a demon is "icky".

[The Glyphstone]

If it helps, I've been using this interpretation of the binding Law on the DF forums and no one has said I'm wrong yet (142 posts).

It also seems strange to me that Harry would risk having his head bitten off and a dangerous warlock going free because he thinks controlling a demon is "icky".

It's Harry. He went through lots of effort in the first few books to keep Hell from getting its hooks into him, right up until the Denarians came into play and Hell proper just sort of got forgotten about. I don't find it terribly out of character for him to undo the bindings and just let it rampage, since he knew it'd go after its summoner anyways.

[Thrawn183]

I'm pretty sure there's a difference between containing a creature in a magical circle (edit, and negotiating with it for its services) and binding it to your will.

[datalaughing]

Harry actually says both, that the law only applies to humans and that he wasn't binding Toot-Toot. Here's the quote from the book:

"Evening, Morgan. You know as well as I do that those laws apply to mortals. Not faeries. Especially for something as trivial as I just did. And I didn't break the Fourth Law. He had the choice whether to take my deal or not."

He says that the laws only apply to humans, but then his next statement makes it sound like exactly the opposite is true. It's weird. Then during the fight with the demon he reinforces again that they don't only apply to humans:

"The Fourth Law of Magic forbids the binding of any being against its will,""So I stepped in and cut your control over it. And didn't establish any of my own."